I think he meant seasoned as in "herbs and spices". Well marinated Quakers tend to taste better when you delete their config files. /s 

@xaGe Well, it never hurts to take a look of course, but what I described is the very abbreviated version of the advice I was given several times when I was still very new to the community from people who have done it for years when I complained that some mods fucked my config up and forced me to redo it all over again. I never meant that they do it blindly, or that anyone should for that matter. 

It might even let you fix the issues that future versions of a mod break compatibility by adding the progs to the map pack, thereby freezing the version of the progs which the map pack uses (although on the flip side this means that you won't get bug fixes from future versions either).

I've been thinking about this. You read my mind.

I want a mapper's map to be played in the context of the original mapper's intent.

About Spike: Spike is 1/3 right and 2/3 wrong.

I love Spike, Spike is very intelligent.

But 18 months ago, Spike didn't fully understand what the Quake Injector did or why it was important.

I'll just say this: Spike is wrong. I'll prove it later.

I can explain exactly why Spike is wrong.

I'm rather happy you correctly interpreted my posts from my point of view of someone who cares about the infrastructure of Quake and the intention of mappers.

I also wish you structured the Quoth 2.2x updates in the same "peel back" manner as previous Quoth release.

Story for another time. 

multiple gamedirs are fine if mod makers take the necessary precautions.

Bullshit.

I know of examples that even mods with all the precautions possible, the engine cannot handle correctly because the right information isn't available.

It is also obvious in your very careful wording "necessary precautions" that you damn well know there are a number of conflicting scenarios possible.

You already know "multi-game" has very negative consequences and is poorly designed. 

1) AD modded by community, version 1.
2) My mod that depends on AD. version 1.

Which progs.dat gets used? Mine of course.

Then dwere fixes the super shotgun model in "AD modded by community, version 1" by adding a couple frames. And he patches the progs.dat and source code.

Of course, now my "My mod that depends on AD" is now broke. Because my progs.dat is the one that runs, and it doesn't know about the new model frames.

The whole multigamedir concept depends on non-development. The slightest change in a dependency throws a wrench into everything.

And what's fun, I have examples of how it can get hilariously screwed up even with "all the right precautions". Awesome stuff.

Pictoral view - educational, for sure

What could possibly go wrong? 

if you don't mind, give some examples (like screenshots), so i can follow your reasoning more closely

I would, but I'm not sure what I should depict. I'm probably pulling this last bit about the shadows out of my ass anyway.

What I was trying to say is that the sky is pretty saturated, so it should probably affect all exposed surfaces by making them absorb some of its hue. But the ambient (not sunlight) hue seems to be cooler, and not much different (if at all) from when the sky was blue.

Since the sky/fog color isn't that warm, maybe it's okay; but something forced me to make this observation, so I dunno. I'm not gonna pretend I have a deep understanding of how this should work. 

Then dwere fixes the super shotgun model in "AD modded by community, version 1" by adding a couple frames
which is why I listed this precaution
if a mod adds/removes/changes frames in a model, then the new version of the model needs to use a different filename (the old may or may not need to be distributed).
obviously that needs to be followed by the original mod ANYWAY if you want multiplayer to work well when people may have slightly different versions installed. If dwere causually changed a model then its dwere's fault (poor dwere, getting picked on like this) if something (like multiplayer, or hi-res replacement models) fucked up because of it.

multiple gamedirs already exist. id1, qw, $enginedir, hipnotic, quoth, $mod (+homedir versions of each)...
Keeping extra blockages to prevent people from doing what they want when the engine must already be able to cope with it is just user hostile, imho, but to each their own I guess. Without it I guess people will just have to keep on making copies of large (and possibly copyrighted) mods.
Anyway, your engine, your limitations. Whatever. 

ad_tfuma
skill 3
54:45 ; 6/13 secrets ; 211/245 monsters ;; 3 deaths
wow
i really liked the new monsters. i don't if any of you knows the doom's mod "winter's fury" (awesome wad), but poison instead of ice. i decided to end the map before trying to get to the roof. well, the next time i will try to do a 100% run, no matter how much time it takes.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B72Jjyg-RfNFV0gxNlR6bU5rOEk 

Not that I could anyway since it doesn't seem to support Linux, but that's not the point.

On Linux at least you could symlink files and folders to save space, but still not as friendly as command line multiple directory support. 

https://www.twitch.tv/ionous 

ad_magna
skill 3
2 deaths
i did not take notes of time, monsters and secrets. but it's the biggest demo in filesize. 165mb, ~2.4gb uncompressed
impressive really. really long map, lots of secrets, lots of monsters, good gameplay.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B72Jjyg-RfNFZERmakkzZ2w1U28

well, i finished playing all the maps
what can i say that hasn't been said? it's a shame that this mod don't have more exposure. it's really that good, the gameplay is excellent.
doom has a better gameplay, that's why it has a bigger modding comunity and vibrancy. quake it's my favourite game of the two, but perhaps it's the first pc game that i played.
but with arcane dimensions, quake has better gameplay that doom or any of doom mods i played. better yet, it's simple enough that any "casual" player can grasp it quickly and enjoy the game. the maps have high replayibility

i played mods in doom, unreal, half-life I & II, age of empires II & III, warcraft III, homeworld series, total war series, stalker, oblivion, skyrim, etc. and this is the best mod that i encountered thus far. long war for xcom:eu and perma for skyrim are awesome high quality mods. i find arcane dimensions better than those two, wich i previously considered the best gameplay mods in games (that i know, and not counting counter-strike, but that's multiplayer). 

Cool demos! 

i will try, with the following rules:
* easy difficulty
* no reloading.
* no speed demo. i am not interested in doing it in the shortest time.
* shooting buttons allowed
* a couple of really accidental shots allowed. ie: when you pick a weapon during a fight.
* shot at flying enemies allowed but only when it won't come to ground level.

i'm not sure how many maps i can finish this way.

here it is ad_e1m1 done chopped (the easiest one):
http://www.quaketastic.com/files/demos/ad_e1m1_topher_axe.7z 

more fun!

ad_e2m2
this one was tricky
those hammer ogres are a nightmare to fight with the axe. for now.. until i figure out how to fight them well.

http://www.quaketastic.com/files/demos/ad_e2m2_topher_axe.7z 

I'm not really looking for kind of argument that causes tension.

I could have decided to file the topic in the "I don't care" department. It doesn't materially impact me.

However, what good am I if I don't cite the reasons this has already been tried and failed.

It has failed every time it has been tried, and history repeats itself. If we called it "Windows DLL Hell" or if we were instead calling it Quakespasm Spiked requiring 32-bit libraries but the 64-bit ones have the same name you'd likely agree with me.

Although without Quake Injector support and support for it in the Quaddicted database, will be interesting to see how the average user would even install them.

-- Or are you under the impression that all these new guys that can't find their Quake folder are manually installing things like Arcane Dimensions and Quoth and then doing the command line themselves like an expert? Haha

Anyway, I did my part to share knowledge. ;-)

This doesn't affect me. And besides, I recommend you go with this.

Will be more fun saying "See I told you, hahah".

To be a good predictor, need to have someone super-smart like you who didn't listen and walked in the minefield anyway ;-)

Will make me look good.

/Anyway, Spike your #1 in my book. Done talking about this boring subject anyway, fun stuff is what I like. 

ad_metmon
this one was easy. i did it in the first attempt in twenty or so minutes
http://quaketastic.com/files/demos/ad_metmon_topher_axe.7z 

I rarely watch demos but an axe challenge could be fun to watch. I'd like to see how you axe a pyro, an ice golem or a fury knight... Which protocol are you using? 

protocol 666, quakespasm
fury knight are the one with two swords? i tackled one with a quad damage in this demo.
for now, the hammer ogre are the one who are seriously giving me fight and killing me. i don't record the failures.

e2m7 was hard but not as hard as e2m2. in e2m2 i finished the level after like 12 attempts or more. i made e2m7 after 5 attempts.

playing in easy certainly helps. somehow i still get shot by those xbow knights. they are good.

http://quaketastic.com/files/demos/ad_e2m7_topher_axe.7z 

i watch demos with markv, that sourceport has rewind and fast playing, with the arrow keys. quakespasm doesn't have that 

Heh, yeah a quad certainly helps! You get hit by crossbow knights? They do have great accuracy but in skill 0 their shots are very sloooooow. 

ad_e2m2 @5'42": Challenge failed! ;) You nailed a crossbow knight while the ledge he stands on is accessible (in fact, you land upon it @9'32"). 

MARKV has a bug with the rewind feature in demos. when you rewind, the clock go forward instead of backward.
when you pause (down arrow) and unpause, the time is resynced.

the real time is 3:55
that xbow knight is unaprocheable with axe.

when i jumped after grabbing the sharpshoter powerup (8:53), i jumped in another area. 

Is this a bug, I remember using gibondeath value 1 : Explode on death earlier. But now I tried it and it didn't explode. I was planning placing pyro near the explosive boxes, and after pyro is death it might trigger some boxes to explode in a row and hurt player a bit. Not sure does explode has any radius/blast damage? 

Is there any good way to make a misc_smoke "start" its animation? It's pretty annoying having it just pop in when it's been triggered. 

ad_zendar

i have to say, the new axe make the axe only runs much more easy and quick

i shot the nour for brevity and for my sanity
http://www.quaketastic.com/files/demos/ad_zendar_topher_axe.7z