... for the feedback.

As I explain in the thread header, this map is supposed to be a remake (down-make ?) of the Doom3 Hell level. I knew the gameplay will be ruined due to the Doom3-linearish gameplay, so, I decided to add some secrets to make the map more Quakish... and also to add a cherry on the cake with the last arena: the biggest deviation from the Doom3 Hell guardian part...

In anyway, I'm sorry for the crampiness, but it is exactely the same in the Doom3 original level, so as a remake must not deviate too much from the original IMHO... I has to preserve this "convenience" in the map... and it also add to the global unsecurity feeling

All in all, the major diffculty thing was to obtain the same ambience feeling as in Doom3... That's why I heavily concentrated and put the emphasis on the ambience, particularly using the rumbbling background sounds, and adding others (thanks to the freesound project wesite), and also to SoundForge I used a lot to add cavernous reverberation and bass-boost effects, etc.. Also, the overuse of crucified/hanging bodies was the key.. like the blood fountain...

Well, I knew some purists will complain about the textures and the crampiness, but the idea was to make something different from what you ever experimented, and I guess the result was not so far from my expectations, regarding some comments above...

So, I would like to thank the people who took time to play the map, even if they didn't give feedback... 

thanks for the pointer to freesound... that could be a useful website. 

I haven't played DooM 3 yet so perhaps I spoiled the surprise awaiting for the Hell maps but I liked this dark romp through a hellish landscape that reminded me very much of some levels in Undying (Osiris levels?). Even the sounds seemed familiar from Undying or perhaps Diablo 2.

I found all 6 secrets and they seemed fair and usefull. Ammo was a bit more scarce in the first map but plentiful later on. Gameplay was decent (I played on Hard). Those vorelings really gnaw me down though. The final map was also fun and I did use some strategy to beat it.

Like my Travail maps, it was crampy but that encourages a slower more cautious play style - more of a snipe from cover then a barge in and mow down style. But cramped maps do frustrate too when you can't dodge the Guant's lightning in time.

Good moody map set. Thanks JPL. I hope to play more of your maps in the future. 

Nice D3 hell feeling. Not too hard for me on skill 2, the end battle was very tough though. I never ran out of ammo, but my health was constantly below 50. Found only one secret in each map. Nice ambient sounds, too bad there weren't more.

Brushwork could have been better in places, especially the indoor rocks. Lighting was often very flat, high minlight doesn't go well with those textures. Use trigger_void instead of _hurt. 

+

atmospheric sounds
dark mood
I liked the textures
good tough gameplay

-

map3 is impossible from scratch, no weapons /not enough shells

the start is very laggy for me, some spots later on are quite slow too

no Cyberdemon (expected it after your Event map)

made some demos: http://shub-hub.com/files/demos_singleplayer/5rivers_sw.dz 

...the big positive with this pack is atmosfear. It's loaded! I think the things that did it for me were the skybox, the soundscape (brilliant), the inclusion of Quoth map objects, some (but only some) of the lighting, and the not too overdone Doom3 spawning. Once I realised that, like D3, picking up something useful was also going to be dangerous it kept me on my toes.

On the downside, most of the brush work was boring or simplistic. One of few exceptions was the little alcove area that contained a broken blood well, some supplies and a shambler (on skill 1). There was just enough light to make out what was going on structurally and the feature that capped the experience was the broken barred window that looked out into the "void". Yum! Another big downside was texturing, seeing wall blocks used as ceiling, supported by "beams" that are just more wall blocks is most disappointing. Also, misalignments like the one above the Vore over the "void", where the sloped ceiling joins the horizontal can be OK, but not if you put two wall torches just underneath them :)

Downsides aside, I've replayed it three times just for the atmosphere. Thanks JPL! 

faithful to the original but much more fun inside the Quake universe. Love the
ambient sounds, and I'm not sure if FitzQuake has true stereo but it was quite convincing to my ears.

I'm going to play it again, even though I have a lot of driving to do tomorrow; screw it, I'm playing again. That's a problem for future Thumper to worry about.

JPL. masta of da atmosphere. 

Thanks a lot for all the good comments above, I was not expecting so much good things after post #12.

Well, I'm about to go on holiday now (3 weeks), and maybe I will find time to start something new... This time I'll try to put all the best I did in a single map (CDA architecture design, CMC curviness, SRC interconnect and 5 Rivers ambience)... Maybe something top will result in...

Again, thanks a lot for all the feedback guys ;) 

that cyberdemon map was very good, except the part with the cyberdemons! 

played again after beta testing :)

the end is perfect on hard :) lots of action :=)

thks JPL you are a great mapper! hope to see more maps from you

the skulls gave problems i now but they look real great, good job my friend! 

Great job, JPL, of re-creating the Doom 3 Hell experience in Quake! The ambiance and architecture were spot on -- Doom 3 Hell levels weren't that spectacular architecturally, save maybe for the intricate rock formations here and there. The textures did the trick, overall, but I still don't like the lava ;)

I only wish the experience lasted a little longer...

Cheers and Happy Holiday to you!!! 

I havent played the original so I have no idea what its meant to be like. So the comments are just in relation to this map.

I found the ambience well done for sure, someone else mentioned the oneiros levels from undying and this did remind me of those. Only this was menacing rather than mysterious (which is the vibe the undying oneiros levels gave me).

There is a general simplicty to everything visually though, from brushwork to detailing to texturing to lighting. I think more work could have been done visually. The caves were especially unconvincing in their rockwork and the lighting needed further work too as its too flat.

But there's a few very nice looking areas like the one distrans mentions. Dont know if this is how the original was, but if that area was a deviation, there should have been more of those.

Gameplay wise, I didnt find it too bad. Its not as cramped as your last map, or maybe the enemies here just dont require as much movement. the teleporting monsters behind was annoying, although from what I have read that's a doom 3 thing so I wont blame you for that :)

Overall, nice work and keep it up. 

JPL, this is just a f****** good map. The looks and atmosphere are TOP. (You might want to replace the lava with standard Quake lava.)

Lighting was very nicely gloomy. Played in software and it looked just right.

Now for the criticism. Gameplay. Map 1 was all right difficulty-wise. Map2 was OK, but in some places I thought "uh-oh, three droles?!" I was _very_ thankful when I grabbed the Quad ("just what I need now!")

I must have missed the RL, where is it?

Map 3: This is where I just lost patience and hit "god" and "impulse 9." It feels like 100 times a Trinca map. A Trinca map with only boss monsters.

WTF? There are how many Death Lords in here? Plus multiple droles, and night gaunts, and finally four gugs?!

JPL, this is the best work I've seen from you yet. The atmosphere is great. The hardship is great. This is a super-hard map. But please could you make it so wimpy players with no skills and no attention span like myself can actually finish your maps in the future?

I played on Hard, though.

:)

good map(s), but overuse of those semi-boss monsters like Droles and Death Lords. Please **** us slightly not so hard in your next maps.

(still hurting.)

Never played Doom3 so can't comment on that. 

the right person to comment on this, but I think you can make it easier for yourself in the arena by killing stuff in another order, see Sielwolf's demo. 

There is a certain strategy to use, for sure... I'll comment later on this...

BTW, Sielwolf, I still didn't download the demo, could send it via email please ? 

Sielwolf: You're apparently a very patient player. The amount of times you jumped into that blood pool in map 2 would have driven me nuts. When you did that for the 5th time or so, I cringed in my chair.

Frequent use of boomstick and shamblerdance maneuvers isn't my idea of fun, either. I finished that map much, much quicker because I just didn't bother to kill everything...

The arena (map 3): Well I played in the same way basically (is there another way?) Just that I used Impulse 9 instead of doing what Sielwolf did.

Personally I don't find it the least bit exciting killing 20 death lords in a row with a rocket launcher, but to each his own I guess.

JPL, instead of confronting the player with groups of 4-8 monsters of the same type, then another type, why not mix them up more? Is that coming from Doom 3?

Playing like you're afraid: Yeah, I guess that hits the nail on the head. Problem is I'm more the trigger-happy type (hey, I play QUAKE!) and so I need maps that cater to an aggressive playstyle.

I'd even say I liked the gameplay in src better, apart from the bobs. 

Is that coming from Doom 3?

No, in original Doom 3 , there is a single monster, with some other minor 'flyers' (i.e the Guardian), that is the Hell big boss...

Well, as I already said, the gameplay is really similar to Doom 3 gameplay: linear .... Well, I know it sucks and it could have been improved, but as I've chosen to make a remake, it has to follow certain rules, and at least to look like the original... :P
The most difficult thing to render was the ambiance... and regarding the comments posted here, I guess I hit the target I fixed, more or less...

Anyway, thanks a lot to all the people who posted here, and who supported me during this project.. 

Pretty amazing. Some indoor areas seemed a bit plain but I loved the Doomish atmosphere, the sound effects and the texture set. Also, combat was top notch. I especially enjoyed the last map - health/ammo balance was just right. 

JPL..this is great stuff. Totally immersive evil atmosphere, great use of ambient sound and I personally loved the textures in the context of the setting. The inclusion of the Quoth entities only made it that much better. 

Does a very good job of replicating D3 hell feel, very accurate, although that is a double edge sword because although it's a cool style it is also a bit flat and bland layout-wise. Still, top marks for execution and style.

Gameplay was variable, very hard to start, good in the second map, in fact that was a real blast. Final map I sorta got bored with. 

nice maps, I liked the atmosphere a lot, though I agree with the comments that some of the locations were a bit bland, and the gameplay a bit linear and occasionally unfair, but I know you can blame a lot of that on Doom 3 itself. Good effort too, there's a lot of mappage here so thanks and congrats! 

It is a good map.

Can you make a fast, easy fragging zone map in the style of original Quake for us more aggressive guys in the future? :-) 

More frightening and agressive than this map ? Do you really want to die in the first second ?

No, actually, I planned to start something new, based on Quoth (or Quoth2.... nevermind), but I still don't have a clear theme... I'd like to go for a medieval map, but Quoth2 is more base oriented (regarding the new monsters added... at least in the preliminary release of last year)

Wait and see....

And as usual: thanks a lot for all the comments above ;) 

Looks very Doom3 athmospheric. The skybox and textures really rock
But I don't think that the gameplay is Doom3 like. Doom3 is like running through the maps only using the shotgun. this doesn't work in 5river land.

Apart from that I experienced framerate drops at the start, it seems that there are too many dynamic lights for my 8500gt.
I had something similar with my old onboard i810 intel gfx-card, with the difference that only one dynamic light dropped the framerate. and I remembered that i fixed this with adding -nomtex to the command line.
So I tried this and it worked. 

r_flatlightstyles 1 in Fitz or my GL-engines.