My opinion on QM (it's a good place) and the "split" (it's total nonsense) hasn't changed one iota since July 2018: tf and QM can, and should, coexist without trying to integrate.

The fact that QM can be well over 500+ members would rather point to the fact that this so-called "toxicity" is something that stems from here in specific, rather than being inherent to Quake community in its heterogeneous entirety. (Unless we are, in fact, seriously entertaining the notion that jokes such as "I'll eat your face" in a tutorial old enough to be linking to a Gamespy page is a symptom of deep rot.)

Maybe permanently removing the beef thread is something to consider. 

There are other jokes that run through the tutorial, and it's an old example, but it also was the tutorial I was referred to for learning QC only a few months ago. Maybe there's a better example of what I mean... I'm trying to say that the "obvious playful pisstaking" referred to in the Kinn quote in the original post isn't always so obvious or harmless. Seeing nonsense like dick jokes on here says to me that this is a boys club, and it makes me cautious to inviting level-design friends here from outside the Quake mod scene. Maybe func isn't the place for the goals I'm describing.

Also yes, the QM discord has shown a tremendous growth of interest! I think much of the community is moving in a positive direction that is more welcoming. 

Good points there. There can definitely be a correlation with small, dedicated communities and a feeling of "boys' club" - I've noticed this clearly in other communities.

The perception can be from the outside that such communities are closed and unwelcoming.

The actual reality is that they are definitely NOT, they are open and welcoming (just as this one is, see later).

But the specific nature, in-jokes, small size, focus, etc etc, can give a false impression. It can look a bit impenetrable....until one actually tries, and then one realises that such places are focused on the insiders, rather than being hostile to outsiders. But the outsider must cross that perspective hump, take a chance and go for it, to realise they're as welcome as anyone.

Take....yourself, dumptruck, otp, sock, mfx, fairweather, ionous, khreathor, nait, poorchop, skacky, etc etc whoever.....you're all total noobs, appearing this millenium, or decade, or even year. You were all outsiders once, looking in - now you're all part of it, some quite fundamentally so. You took that step and just became part of it, that's how it works, it's not a closed shop.

So yeah, maybe toxic is too strong a word, although maybe there is still some stuff to air. And maybe it's just perception that's an issue. 

A vote on removing the beef thread would be good. It may indeed be allowing things to get too nasty and personal, rather than defusing and entertaining as the original plan was. 

Dick jokes are - even if the word is censored - are essential to any balanced and emotionally stable community. 

Well put. Will give this some thought. 

Something I forgot to add to my screed above was "good for you" for taking responsibility for past behavior.

Goofy mods are always welcome. 

To be honest, either a forum is moderated, or it's not. If there's posting rules, and you breach the rules, then blammo, mod should delete post. "It's a fair cop, guv" says the errant poster.

Func is func. As far as I can tell, it doesn't have "rules". The closest thing to posting guidelines appears to be found here: http://www.celephais.net/board/faq.php

and I quote:

About This Site
We are a community of hobbyist and professional level designers who share insights, opinions, rants, and flames.

Pretty self-explanatory. "Go hog wild".

I don't think we need to engage in great big discussions where we try to create "soft rules" or "etiquette" when I'm sure half the people here don't give a damn about them.

I think if this site needs posting rules and this kind of moderation then it should be explicitly written somewhere and the forum should be moderated accordingly. Is that really what func needs after existing just fine for two decades?

For my part, I don't think we need to moderate anything, but we should do some obvious tightening up of the basic site mechanics to remove spam and anon shitposting as much as possible. 

 

I think it's good to have some level of sensibility respect and not let things get out of hand. Half the people might not give a damn but half the people might and if some people are finding it really bad it might be worth looking at to see how much of a real issue is it. 

If one wants to make somewhere like func "not get out of hand" (more than it has been 20 years) to attract / welcome everyone at large it is simple : func will become something entirely else than it is.

Diversity is desired, yes ?

Turning all existing community bases into heavily moderated and controlled "everyone" welcome type of spaces does not, ironically, achieve welcome for "everyone".

To this I welcome the existence of **both** types of community spaces (and more!) and hope this stays so.

This though does not mean the community needs to be split, god no, this is rather a question of the different spaces acknowledging and promoting each other, informing any new comers of what kind of spaces and flavors are around.

On the chat / discord side a real strong approach for this would be instead of integrating places like discord QM into a TF subchannel or vice versa (hey! #tf was first :P) the real beauty would be to have shared/fully mirrored Subchannels such as the News / Releases threads and other meutral "cultural" ones.
Another could be a identical shared read only information channel with a summary of community spaces/resources.

Sadly Discord does not allow this simply :/
Could likely be ugly-hacked up with bots/scripts and the like though. 

https://forums.duke4.net/topic/10412-randys-pitchford-corner/page__st__150

funcs not this bad 

func, as far as I'm aware,* does not harbpr any open Nazis or Stalinists, people with loli avatars, or Nazis/Stalinists with loli avatars. Those facts alone put func ahead of plenty of internet communities I've observed, despite a small group of cantankerous grumps.

*I don't use IRC or Discord or whatever the hell else so I'm unaware of what goes down there. 

Soooooo the func / TF community are not toxic ? Could it only be that drama queens have been drama-queening around ?

Now would be a good time to post and offer some insight to not have one's complaints dismissed as above. 

Well that's something at least, that the community avoids the internet-political tedium.

As for discord: on the original worldwide quake mapping community server at least, there's a clear balance between keeping it liberal and fun, but drawing a line before any actual abuse (the only person to get kicked for a post content had said a racist jest in a cruel context). In the guidelines...

@everyone : Please note that while #terrafusion is proudly maintained as a liberal open-minded discussion platform that is accepting off and sometimes promoting off foul language, vulgar banter and sordid topics of discussion, IN CONTRAST: actual extremist views, genuine harassment, xxx-phobias of most forms, and persistent targetted banter when requested otherwise are not tolerated. PLEASE if you feel uncomfortable with aspects of the channel or think anything like that is occuring in a genuine way, RAISE THE ISSUE FIRST (in the channel or message a moderator) to prevent further problems.

Come along and give it a go: https://discord.gg/d5mytUj , everyone is welcome. 

Maybe so??

It does seem to be that there are mutterings about a "toxic" community but when it comes to actually clearing it up, finding out what is going on, being accountable for stuff or open with issues....people are suddenly clamming up.

Surely if anyone has an actual problem, this would be a good place to raise it and resolve it??

Or maybe it's just not that bad... (which personally I think is the clear truth, but I don't want to dismiss others concerns if they're actually going to raise them).