Seeing how much time and energy the Quoth team constantly invests in their creation, I can not imagine them disappearing some day, leaving no trace and neither the sources behind. It's a quite unrealistic fear, don't make it worry you.

How can anyone who's been around Quake for as long as you have say anything like the above with a straight face?

(Where is FatController? Where is spawnpoint.org? What about all of stuff you have at Quaddicted where the author's harddrive died so the source code is in the abyss? When is the last time aguirRe posted here?)

That whole paragraph is a roflcopter.

As nice as Quoth is, if it is going to be closed source the funeral should be today and it should be given a proper burial.

The entire idea of mappers investing time in a closed source single player expansion kit is rotten to the core.

If Quoth was FOR the single player mapping community, the source should be released with whatever onerous restrictions the author feel are appropriate, not make people wonder if in 2012 some bug or simple but important improvement or god forbid some operating system compatibility problem with, say, a 128-bit processor or new OS or some client is impossible to fix or impossible to even investigate.

Better off taking CustEnts, Hipnotic, Rogue, Zerstorer and Lunaran's Enforcers (I'm in the Mega Enforcer fan club) plus say, the Cyberdemon mod and making an open-source enhanced single player than investing months in building maps for a mod with potentially a questionable closed-source future. 

future abandonware. 

It all started when people wanted to have/create entity "files" for their editors. Now it became some sort of religious open-source war?

Is having the source code to a Quake mod really worth constantly harassing its authors? And what do you think that will accomplish?

The reasons why the source code must be released sound a bit farfetched to me. Future incompatibilities? I am not a programmer, but the progs.dat seems to be quite independant from anything.

If there really is nothing but hate from some people towards a closed-source Quoth, then maybe they want to nicely convince the team to send the source to 1-2 trusted people and allow them to release it if the team vanished.

How could Quake even survive all those cruel years when its map sources were unreleased? Why didn't we just decide to bury it right away for being closed-source... 

Releasing the source: benefits the community.
Not releasing the source: benefits noone.

As much as it would perhaps be nice to happen, I don't forsee Quoth becoming a commercial project anytime soon, so, why keep it closed? What do you gain? 

I agree with Jago...

the original source BELONG TO IDSOFTWARE!!!

So why many secret with a source that is original from a game? that is always possible to decompile... but i think the source should be release... could teach many other people to make there own modes!!!

and what Quoth team gain? personally i don�t like Quoth... and when base pack came and all the problem that have been I start hating more... slow game play and boring most of the monsters... so i don�t give a shit about Quoth... ID1 FOREVER!!!

but i still think u don�t have the right to keep the source doesn�t belong to Quoth anyway... is from ID. Is something like I make lots of maps for Quake and then release then under my name and sell...

we all invested time on this game and nobody was expecting to get paid right? :\

i don�t want to put more hot water in the boil... but the troth

PEACE! 

How about it's their decision and the rest of you fuck off?

I mean seriously, regardless of the reasoning behind it, they've decided not to release the source. What is attacking them going to achieve?

Not releasing the source: benefits noone.

From the author's point of view I can actually see a number of benefits. For example, nobody is going to hassle them continually with annoying questions. How do I get it to compile? What does this bit mean? Please help me add retardedly stupid feature X to your mod?

More importantly, remembering that this is meant to be a solid and consistent base for mappers and players alike, there's not going to be multiple versions floating around with 2 or 3 variables tweaked or 1 shitty monster added. When you release a Quoth map, you know it will work with the version of Quoth that everyone else has (it's the same as yours).

But why should the authors have a say? Oh yeah, wait, it's their mod. Shit. So all of this is beside the point, really, isn't it? 

"From the author's point of view I can actually see a number of benefits. For example, nobody is going to hassle them continually with annoying questions."

I can bet releasing the source is going to stop the most annoying question of them all, that being the "When are you releasing the source?" question.

I do aknolwedge the author's right to release/not release the source as he/they see fit, it is after all, indeed their own work and they don't "owe" the community anything. However, when the game engine and the game .qc code is open source, I find it very morally and ethically questionable to release derivative works as closed source.

When it comes to engine modifications, such behaviour is prohibited by the GPL, however the .qc code does not come with GPL's requirements, making it perfectly legal to not release the source to modified .qc code. Being perfectly legal however, in no way, shape or form makes it a morally right thing to do. 

I mean if I had made a mod like Quoth I wouldnt want to release the source. And DEFINATELY NOT IN THIS FORUM!!!

You may aswell chop your own head off and mount it on a spear to ward people off. Cant you imagine the beating it would take.

Besides the point, why can't people enjoy Quoth for what it is? I'm sure that if the guys ever announce that it is finished then they will release the source. If if they stop developing it. Until that time comes why should they release the source?!?!?

Everyone here who is hating on Preach and Kell needs a cold shower.

Trinca / Other haters - What the hell do you care if the source is released. Are you planning a mod?!!! You're just jumping on another "lets bash Quoth/Kell" train.

Kell - Preach : I personally feel embarassed for the way you are treated. Nice mod. :) 

Just look at the trillions of new Quake engines that have been released, all promising to add amazing new features to Quake but actually just doing the same [usually ugly] shit over and over again. Obviously it gives the community a lot more options, but to be honest when the choice comes down to "Which spangly new Engine makes me want to puke less!?", is that really such a good thing?

Okay I'm exaggerating a little, but I still think it's a valid fear for somebody who's invested countless hours of their free time creating something. They don't want to see it being raped -- which it will be, at the VERY least once.

Having said that, I would like to get my hands on Quoth so that I can start work on my AMAZING new Quake mod, 'Quath'. It's going to knock everybody's socks off. I don't want to give too much away right now incase anybody steals my amazing ideas, but as a teaser let's just say there's going to be a new type of Enforcer that shoots Shamblers out of his cock. 

"It's miiiine, ALLL MIIIIIINE!"

Now how would you feel if ID didn't release the mapping tools and the engine source? It is after all, their own work, right? I bet you would still take your "business" (mapping interests) elsewhere. 

I think the open source debate is a good one, and it's very healthy to question the pros and cons of it.

It only becomes repugnant when Open-Source-Fanboys start moralizing and harassing. There is no 'right' answer, so ultimately the decent thing to do is respect an author's personal discretion. They're hardly going to want to give their creation to the community as a gift if they feel they've been bullied in to it. 

It's about the assurance that time in invested in something doesn't go down the shitter.

Case in point, that one RickyT23 map in December that was awesome and then didn't work with Quoth2.

@ RickyT23

I mean if I had made a mod like Quoth I wouldnt want to release the source.

It's a long tradition of releasing the source code for things actually meant to benefit "the community".

Quake's original code: released
Hipnotic: released
Rogue: released
Zerstorer: released
Cust Ents: released

2 years ago I was told by someone who had heard that when Quoth was "done", the source would be released. I'll ask him sometime what the source of that information was.

My point ISN'T that the Quoth source should be released.

My point IS that if the Quoth source isn't going to be released, I think people should invest their time in something else that has an assured continuity.

Having green and red enforcers available isn't really special enough to support a dead-end mod.

Yes, that is slight over simplification of what Quoth does but I've seen the killer results of closed source stuff enough in Quake it blows my mind people still are willing to hang themselves with that rope. 

roulfffffffffff i used a mod in trincasp3 with the help of LTH that was a great guy and share the source with me, and i share with HT that add me some monsters to code :+)but of course originnal source still from LTH and i didn�t ever write that was MY CODE!

anyway in there own decision and i honestly dont give a shit :p

i just dont agree so nothing more to say.

Stay well

p.s-> RickyT23 stfu u Quoth bitch ;) 

anyway i think

Original code is from Necros and i never see a map of Necros with source code...

Kell just make models

and Preach fix the Quoth code becouse necros quit Quake and is lazy...

so Kell and Preach are kind of out...

Is a pitty honestly... Necros is one of the best mappers i ever saw in Quake and he complitely quit :\ for a fucking faget game.

me cry :(

Necros please return with a fucking great map of burn in doom3 :p 

I've seen way too many sob stories where something is closed source for all the wrong reasons and ...

1) Someone leaves the "scene"
2) Something dumb happens involving a computer or a hard drive
3) Something else happens

There are so few QuakeC modders I'd bet $10 no one would ever be modding Quoth and bet $20 within 5 years the authors wouldn't even care or if someone did.

But that's not my point.

No one is omniscient. Unforeseen bad things happen. Unforeseen good things happen. If the source is available, the bad ones can't happen and the good ones can happen.

I cannot name a single closed source mod over 3 years old that is actively developed for Quake and I think.

Quake will be around a very long time. 

and to elaborate a bit more, that means that once the authors abandon the project, due to whatever reasons, nobody will be able to bugfix/maintain, perhaps even run/compile (less likely with QuakeC than normal C) it anymore.

It's not a question relevant today, but it may be one time. Such binaries become like black boxes, frozen in time.

On the other hand, QuakeC isn't C, the tools aren't developed much, it is cross platform (one of Quake's big pluses compared to Quake2 - a progs is a progs, on any system, while a Windows dll is just that and often contains MS specific extensions), and even though engines move along, we can be pretty sure that most Quake engines will run any progs.dat even 50 years from now.

So it's probably not as problematic as a DLL would be. In principle though, Baker is right.

Quoth maps are tied to Quoth the progs.dat, among other things. Because of this, anyone making maps for Quoth (its intended use) can rightfully be concerned about them working and keeping working. This is where Quoth does owe the mappers a tiny bit. The mappers tie their work to the mod. id1 is open source, which is a tiny advantage from a technical point of view. Not for modding purposes, but to ensure its survival.

Right now, it's a hypothetical problem though. (Still, it could be nasty when it becomes a real one.)

Kell and co. could opensource the QC but stamp it "you may not use this code as a base for your own mod". People would borrow some code then, but add it to their mod instead of adding their mod to Quoth.

I admit that the open source / survival thing is a big enough point for me to consider switching my maps in progress away from Quoth. Didn't add too much Quoth stuff to my episode yet, just some smaller maps.

There are open source mapping toolkits like extras or whatever that one was called. I'm mainly interested in non-monster entities anyway. Another point is that you've still got to combine Quoth with QuakeC hacks for a number of things, like triggerable triggers, triggerable or silent teleporters, etc. So since I need to go to hacks half the time already, why not go to an opensource mod and hack it to my needs.

That means that, while we don't see any Quoth variants, we see a lot of maps with their own progs anyway, ie a lot of id1/extras etc variants, which NO ONE COMPLAINS ABOUT! ^^ And some of them would perhaps use a Quoth variant (Quoth + some hacks) if they could, with the result being a higher acceptance of Quoth (more maps using it.) I know this for a fact.

I subscribe to the theory that sharing makes stuff better, not worse by the way. Often the best user hacks can be returned to the official code, meaning the users de facto work for you, not against you.

It follows that open source would be beneficial, not detrimental, to the acceptance, development and survival of Quoth.

Just thinking out loud.

Notice I didn't demand anything. 

"Quake will be around a very long time."

i drink to that!!! ;)

i will keep mapping, less but i will keep and no more base maps ;) and i promiss more quality! 

Who says that when Quoth is "finished" or "taken as far as the developers are willing to take it" that they wont release the source?

Who says that Kell hasn't backed it up onto a disc or memory stick (?!)

They didn't release the source to Quake, Armagon etc etc until long after they were finished!!

And also

Case in point, that one RickyT23 map in December that was awesome and then didn't work with Quoth2.

If I remember correctly Preach acknowledged the problem straight away, and quickly promised a HOTFIX which has just been released.

I mean I could understand all of this worry (Baker) and animosity (others, Trinca) if they had abandoned the project and dissappeared, but they havent!! They are doing their thing!

What a thing to argue about.

Trinca - you have chopped off your own nose to "spite your face". 

how many people actually intend doing something with the source code? 

hehehe RickyT23 are you release pissed? or u joking like i�m? :p

roulf

nitin i will not even map for Quoth ;) i dont give a shit i just put my point of view :)

and i�m pretty sure that if depends of kell and preach maby the story was other... 

I mean I could understand all of this worry (Baker) and animosity (others, Trinca) if they had abandoned the project and dissappeared

You mean you could understand the worry after the shit hit the fan? How about making sure it doesn't while you're still at it.

@ Too few coders: Most mappers are hack***coders, too.

/shrug <--- final comment 

true but i�m pretty sure Kell is the best modeller that is still active in Quake... 

I just dont like hearing people taking a bashing. I fail to see how they have done anything wrong. I think it's unfair to stand there and tell everyone what a buch of useless wankers they are when really they are the opposite!

They have done a lot of good work for the SP Quake community. They aren't prepared to get into bed with everyone, they just want to do what they have been doing for their own creative bedevilment. Which is the only good reason to create anything like this.

Everybody gets pissed off cause they want these guys to do things for them, and they have simply said "no" to everything which wasn't on their own agenda. Which is the only fair way of doing it. Everybody has been sooo demanding, mean, nasty, said lots of terrible things about them, and Quoth. Why?!?!

If you make a map and people get pissed off cause you didnt make it the way they wanted it, and you wont give them the mapsource so they can fuck with it.... Its so, sort of selfish and ungrateful.

So its easy for me to sit here and type about how I feel like they deserve a little more respect. 

Needless to say I fully agree with you: if players do not like what moders are providing, either just don't use it, or make your own mod... As well for mappers...

Quoth is for sure the best Quake mod ever, and even if some few people think it is not perfect, I think it is possible to live with it, as it is today.. damned it does not mean I don't want to see a Quoth3 soon ;) !

Kell / Preach, your mod rock, don't listen to them !! 

is also derespect ignore people emails...

and it was done from then... during base map pack... and i didn�t ask for any fucking update... just came up

was inertia fault!!! and he didn�t even map...
going to catch the fucking plain to put a fuclking bomb in US :p