@Preach, I am trying to understand what you did with your ogre model in Gmax. (workflow) The chainsaw and grenade launcher objects both have blue boxes. They look like some attachment tag, what are they? How did you create them? I assume this lines up with a bone in the hand?

The bone structure for your ogre has a tail bone, what was that for? When you were creating the bone structure, did you start with the spine? Did you mirror the left and right bones?

The ogre is one complete mesh, is that done for a reason? animation etc

Do you know of any good gmax bone/animation tutorials you used?

Thanks for all your help 

So far I have only found this:
http://world-editor-tutorials.thehelper.net/magos.php
Most forums seem to point at this. The bone arrangement in this article is a bit goofy plus the spine is not connected. The article does talk about helpers (your blue box attachment) I assuming this is the same system? 

i don't really know how much experience you have in this area, but this tutorial: http://www.3dtotal.com/ffa/tutorials/max/joanofarc/joanmenu.asp covers everything from start to finish. you'll want to check out the last section for rigging.
it was written for 3ds max, but a much older version, so likely there is very little (if any) information that can't be brought over to gmax.
also, for more general information, 3dtotal is one of the best sites i know, with a higher concentration of max users than other places. 

Seems like you've got a handle on how it all works, but I thought I'd add that the blue boxes are a type of helper called a "dummy". They're just like a simpler version of a bone, which is all you really need for something like a gun. You make them animate with the model by applying a "follow constrain" from the dummy to the hand bone. 

And loath as you may be to change the pipeline you got to Sock, give this a look:

http://oasis.xentax.com/index.php?content=downloads

I post this about once every two weeks or so.

Its a multi-multi platform / game model converter, very well maintained (found a problem in BMP format and it took a day or so to fix) and now supports IQM (boned models in Quake with proper UVs).

I use 3dsMax but I know a couple of people go direct from Blender - Noesis - Quake without additional steps.

So what they see in Blender is what they see in the engine. 

And, Blender is free and up to date as well, though it'll need learning. There are lots of youtube tuts etc.

And, Necros, I remember that tutorial from uni :) 

@Preach, thanks I was not sure if you used a dummy or point helper, it is hard to tell the difference. Gmax is not really helpful on showing what things are what.

One thing I would like to request of your md3 to md1 converter is the ability to specify a list of animation names. At the moment they are just a long list of (from 3dsmax). Can a list (comma delimited strings) be specified in the text file you use for the compiler?

- Unfortunately I still need to use Qme to setup the animation names so they can work with the QC file.

@necros, that is a very cool link, thank you. The English in that tutorial is strange, but I guess that is because it was translated.

@ijed, I am close to finishing my model and the pipeline I have at the moment works! All the plugin and converters produce a result which works in Q1. If gmax bone animation drives me nuts, I will check out this other pipeline. Thanks for the link. 

you actually do not have to do that.

in your QC, when you alias the frames with $frame nameofframe1 nameofframe2 etc...

they do not have to match at all. only the order matters.

so if you have 'frame1' 'frame2' 'frame3' in your model, if frame1 and 2 are walk anims and frame3 is a run then you need to alias in order:
$frame walk1 walk2 run1
all the qc compiler does it look at the order the aliases appear in and assign a number to them, so $walk1 = 0, $walk2 = 1.
you can just reference the frame numbers directly in the function macros (and you can use the aliases in if checks and such (if (self.frame > $walk2))

also, check out my qc starter vb program.
it will set up all your frame aliases along with the function macros after you enter the number of frames and such: http://necros.slipgateconstruct.com/utilities/ne_qcstarter/ 

Oh I see! Ok I will just write the QC file assuming the frame order in the file then. 

Using max feels like I am editing a map and the editor is not drawing the links between entities!

Is there a way to show the object links in the viewports? I know you can see the tree structure with the selection (H) window, just wondered if there was something else more visual? 

not that i know of, sorry.
you can always set helpers/bones different colours to tell significant groups apart (like left/right side limbs so you can tell easily when viewing from the side).
i suppose you could looking into connecting splines to objects with follow constraints to make your own visual representation of links, but that would mean doing it yourself.
sorry, that's the best i've got. :S 

I thought it was me not being able to find the visual switch for displaying links between objects. It really makes understanding bone structures difficult, I am surprised there is no visuals. 

It is a bit annoying, it is supposed to be an option which you can enable on a per object basis (so you could choose to just display the links for the chainsaw but not the bones). The option you're meant to tick is in the display panel, which is the 5th panel along on the right hand side. Down at the bottom is a "Link Display" rollout with a tickbox called "Display Links".

It doesn't seem to work though, so unless you can fiddle with it and get something, I think it's a feature of 3ds max that is broken in gmax and nobody ever tested... 

I was trying to enable the option on my ogre and that didn't work, but creating a simple test scene I was able to create two boxes, enable the option, then link them and see the link. So give that a try. 

Thanks, I found the option and it certainly works on some bones and meshes.

I am at the final hurdle exporting all my frames and mesh into MD3 format and the Gmax exporter wants to UV map all the bones and place them in all the frames. Does not make any sense as usual. I also tried preach's ogre model and gmax exported all those bones as well. Any suggestions why the exporter wants to UV map bones? 

loath as you may be to change the pipeline you got to Sock, I know a couple of people go direct from Blender - Noesis - Quake without additional steps.

If I was to try and create a model in blender, animate it and then convert with Noesis to Q1 format, what versions and plugins do you recommend for blender? 

To get exports to work you have to use the Only Objects Whose Names Starts With option to filter out the bones from the mesh. Bit of a pain, but as long as the mesh starts with a letter other than 'b' it's only one keystroke. I am going to get round to replying to your e-mail as well... 

Noesis supports lots of stuff, so any 3d package can output files to it, which then get passed to any game format you like, including .mdl.

Personally I'm still using Max, and exporting to Collada. I can't remember which version off the top of my head (at the office just now) but in the past I've used various other formats such as FBX.

Should really document the process and put it up on the site when I get time - your comments here got me thinking along those lines the other day. 

sock: try out blender first to make sure you don't mind it.

if you are familiar with mainstream editing packages, it could be painful. 

I keep saying Finally too much, but I think I have my first rough (extremely crap) ogre model animated. Probably the most painful thing I have done in my games life and I after playing red777 yesterday I can't believe the monsters in quoth and how much effort it must of taken to animate them.

http://www.simonoc.com/images/design/sp/ogre2.gif

My ogre is suppose to be a similar (style wise) to the Hell Knight. These ogres make the armour for the Hell Knights and they like it so much they have adapted parts to their own needs.

Process:
1. Create model in LW and skin in PS
2. Skin/UV in LW
3. Break model down into mesh/uv triangles
4. Export 3DS format
5. Import to Gmax
6. Weld all mesh/uv triangles
7. Setup bones and weights (borrowed heavily from preach model)
8. Export to MD3 (with object name filter)
9. Compiled it with utility from Preach.
10. Fixed skin with Qme

@Preach, thank you for all the help, I am sure I asked too many stupid questions. No worries on email, I assumed you were busy.

@ijed, that utility you linked is amazing! I just did a quick test from LW scene manager, exported with FBX format and straight to MDL format! one step for animations, mesh and UVs!

My next trip into Q1 modelling is to try a pure LW pipeline with Noesis. I am sure something is bound to go wrong but at least I will get the chance to learn another modelling package animation system. 

@necros, at this point I only know bits of different packages and every application is new to me. I have never done animation stuff before, always done static mesh. The whole process is just one big painful learning curve, but it will get better. I sort of understand animation/bone systems (Max version) now I am going to torture myself by learning LW animation system next! 

That looks fucking awesome! 

About Quake animation is that it's practically pose to pose, you don't have to worry as much about timing.

I'm pretty useless at animation, but a lot of cell animation tutorials have helped - like this one http://www.idleworm.com/how/anm/02w/walk1.shtml

Nothing special, although I wouldn't want to do it outside my comfort zone of 3dsMax :) 

thanks for posting that ijed. i was going to mentioned traditional animation because it's very relevant (probably even more with quake due to 10fps).

it can even help to do the movements yourself in a mirror to get an idea of where you want your keyframes to be (close your blinds so you neighbours don't think you're insane).

it's about expressiveness. speaking about quoth, the drole was the first monster i animated, and i find his movements are not expressive enough. it's hard to tell what he is doing between running and swinging for melee attacks.

also, regarding death animations, make sure that when they die, they keel over immediatly. again, the drole's death animation is cool, but slow and when watching demos, i almost always see players continue to shoot at droles that are playing their death animations.
it's important to communicate that the monster is dead as quickly as possible.

be expressive, but don't go overboard. if you can communicate what you want in 4 frames, don't take 12 to do it. 

The thing I like about Quake animation is that it does not need to be perfect AAA quality and can have some goofy poses and body movements. The monsters also don't have to follow exact anatomy guidelines and have some funny shapes like crazy fat arms.

The hardest thing about modelling Q1 monsters for me is knowing how to setup the skeleton. Example layouts of bone structures was something I struggled with for a long while and had to do a bit of research with gmax tutorial examples.

I also can't believe after all this time how little information or tutorials exists on the whole pipeline for creating a monster in quake. I know writing articles is time consuming and painful but there is so much cool information people here know and it is not easy to access.