I like big maps for the immersion, for the same reason I like to include lots of ambient sounds.

My current and future maps will all be above a 200 monster count. The largest monster count was warpc at 666 on hard.

At the time there was a lot of discussion about how grueling the experience was for some. I can understand the sentiment, but unfortunately I'm mapping for me. Of course, I listen to feedback and try and get of much of it as possible (I can't know everything!) but my style of mapping is large and complicated.

Having said that, my favourite part of the process is placing the monsters. I couldn't just dump a block of enemies into a room and forget about it, that'd drive me nuts because I play test the levels a lot. Which is also why I include the randomiser feature - so I don't get bored playing my own stuff.

To be honest I'm a bit nonplussed that others enjoyed my levels so much, considering how solipsistic my build mentality is.

But hey, I'm still learning. 

I can think of maps that have 80 monsters that were more tedious than a 200+ monster map because of the way the monsters were placed and/or the combats were setup. Having said that, if we are talking about tronyn maps, then yes I have to be in the right mood to play them. but that's not because of monster counts per se, but the style of gameplay that is featured (ie monstrous hordes).

Also, and I dont know if others do the same, but I never check the monster count at the start or throughout play because I like to go in cold and not have an idea of how many monsters there will be or how big the map might be or how close to the end I might be. 

That's quite an engine, I'm surprised I haven't heard of it until now. It's very slick, tons of features, and has that authentic software Quake look. But is it really truly software? I ask because, it works flawlessly on my system, whereas any other software engine does not. (Thanks Nvidia) 

I sort of agree, but then again it really depends on the size of the map and the type of enemies used. Obviously, 200 monsters in a large map is a different matter than the same number in a small one. In the first case, it may be fine, in the latter most likely grinding. And a higher monster count may just work if the most of them are weak ones like grunts, dogs and maybe zombies. What puts me off is the type of map where you have to work through large numbers of hell knights and ogres with only low-tier weapons like ssg and ng for the longest time - it gets tedious fast.

The problem in Quake is that the monsters are bulletsponges (and the low-tier weapons weak) so everything takes longer and can easily end up feeling like work. This works much better in Doom where the enemies generally have less health and the weapon balance is better. So 200 monsters in a map is not nearly as much of an indicator of difficulty and length as it is in Quake. 

I have to admit that when I was mapping I was mostly interested in the geometry and lighting. The monsters were an afterthought in most of my maps ... they were expected to be there, so I added them. That was the reality of the situation. :P 

When I play a Quake map these days, I am much more interested in the architecture and lighting than I am in the actual fighting with monsters. To me, the monsters are just there to give me something to do while I am wandering around admiring the brushwork.

Yeah, this is why I always play new quake releases on Easy, if I play them at all. And then I get annoyed because it STILL throws too much combat at me and doesn't give enough health. But people tend to think you're a pussy if you play on Easy, I guess.

When I see multiple engine limits exceeded and new bsp formats are required, then I can't play that map. It makes me wonder why the map was for Quake, it seems it should have been made for a different game.

This is a fallacy. It's not the monster count that breaks engine/bsp limits, it is the brushwork. Pretty brushwork and details have their price.

BSP2 format wasn't made because people wanted high monstercounts and grind gameplay, it was mostly because the maps got too detailed and because details and outdoor areas combined break the old quake limits (mostly clipnodes.)

You can have 666 monsters without needing a new BSP format, as warspasm proves. So broken limits != grind gameplay. 

actually my first map that required BSP2 only had like 50 monsters at the time. 

I've played a large map pack before. It was called unforgiven. So Beautiful... 

The consensus so far seems to be that bad monster placement ruins maps.

Playing through Zendar again and I'm struck by the precise care sock takes over his placement. For example an ogre that facing away from a lift but turns when it appears to hear it arrive.

Details like that are so small and easily missed, but add so much to a map.

I can still cheese your non-z-aiming Ogres though sock ;) 

I'm really tempted to set up a monetary bounty for a vertical aim algorithm that doesn't completely suck balls. 

The one from the inside3d tutorial... It can probably be improved but I've got all those other features to polish.

What's your beef with it? 

The one from the inside3d tutorial... It can probably be improved but I've got all those other features to polish.

What's your beef with it? 

Pile done Pom sea backside tree dee two tore we al.

Woes pour leaf quid itch? 

Playing through Zendar again and I'm struck by the precise care sock takes over his placement.
My favourite ogre is the one right next to the Gold Key. If you come up the elevator, the ogre is facing the right way to be in your face. If the player opens the shortcut to the zombie courtyard and goes off wandering, the ogre drags the player back by shooting some nicely placed reminder grenades at their back :P 

My problem is the extra propelling power they receive, which is pretty ridiculous since they're shooting grenades, not rockets. But looking at the tutorial, it seems like removing the missile.velocity lines should be enough... so maybe nevermind about that bounty. 

After the discussion on why do I waste time randomising enemies it seems you've done the same, but with exploration instead of taking the easy qc way out.

OTP: I'll do that then, since ogres have enough health to continue closing even if their grenades aren't reaching. The easier solution is probably only to make them fire from mid range... failing that a custom one will probably work. Does the Quake range system for monsters take into account verticality? It'd be an epic fail to break the grenade spam from above Behaviour. There's probably a way of canceling out the z distance with some vector maths voodoo if so. 

Maybe they could be granted a certain leeway, a (random?) bonus range. But I agree that increasing their attack range way beyond the normal limit is not a good move. It applies to other monsters as well. In a way this feels like a workaround - instead of adjusting the level design to the monster behavior. 

That's the discussion about z aware enemies - the mapper can be lazy. I like to use this feature for good though, for example the first ogre in my current level fires upstairs at the player in order to teach them that they can, now.

I do like clean cut rules, but in an fps such as quake it's always been pretty vague as to what was the intention, and what was just development hell.

Longer attack range is out then :)

Hm. I need to take more advantage of the vertical spaces I've got in my level. 

The standard ogres are not too bad up close, but their ranged attack pretty much sucks. Anything that makes them better is an improvement. I've been using the inside3D code and it's not bad at all. They do seem to have a bit too much range, but at least they're dangerous, as opposed to useless. 

the regular ogres are pretty dangerous too, if you place 'em correctly 

 

Unless you can place them just about perfect they're useless. Put one below the player and it will kill itself shooting grenades a whole 5 feet above it's head. Put one above the player and unless the distance is exactly right, the grenades go flying harmlessly over the player. About the only use for the standard ogres is as a source of rocket ammo. 

there's no text for me.
http://quakewiki.org/wiki/Main_Page 

Up high, as support for ground enemy, they make combat much more interesting as they are totally out of line of sight... thinking of the two sniping ogres somewhere in sksp2. 

Confirm wiki text is broken fo me