"how much of all this will actually be noticeable to the player? Because if its not, does it really matter?"

That's the thing with AI. In a game like Quake where monsters die in seconds, it's hard to make anything look intelligent.

"But, imagine you've just ran away from a fiend, riding up a lift and going around two corners - but it finds you anyway. "

In theory, neat. In reality, how many times do you run away from monsters? :) 

where I would run away is because of low health/ammo and it would usually be backtracking rather than seeking alternative route forward (unless I have to).

I guess if monsters can track me as I backtrack looking for health/ammo, thats kind of neat but they do that already to an extent. A lift is one scenario where they wouldnt I guess but most the time they follow you somewhat. 

How about a map where you're unarmed?

Part of what we're doing is making the game robust enough to deal with most of what the mapper can throw at it.

The reason not to do the above with some sort of node or dynamic path system (without ruling those out) is for ease of use on the mapper and backwards compatibility.

The ideal from this point of view is to replay the original maps and be surprised by playing them - the monsters reacting less like robots. 

 

No more "trapping" monsters behind walls :)

I can think of numerous situations where this enhancement would make the game more challenging.

Like the Shambler in Starkmon in the lower area. Easy to kill that one by dodging behind the wall and just hammering him with the SSG. This new idea he would be able to walk round the corner and attack the player! 

low level enemies could benefit from this. Say if the player has low ammo or health, one grunt could prove to be quite scary of following the player around the map. 

Well, again, I think it sounds great on paper but won't work in real gameplay. But go ahead, it'll be fun to code at least. 

When's the last time you thought in a modern game 'Why are the monsters following me so well, they don't need to!' 

I can't remember the last time I thought a monster had really great path finding. Generally things either go down quickly or they hunker down behind cover and I need to flush them out.

Maybe it's my play style ... I tend to kill things rather than try to get past them and have them follow me. 

And Quake's minions do go down quickly, but its leaving the options open for more open play styles.

Example:
Having an empty map with only a Shambler in it and an unarmed player. Since even allowing an axe would let some players (Sielwolf) break the progression. They have to run around the level escaping until the 1/3 point at which they find a weapon and a load more monsters spawn in.

Even if that setup or similar never happens (I'm planning on something like that for e3m7rq) the benefits of improved AI will still be seen in the rest of the levels that don't exploit the feature.

AI in modern games tends to be cut down (fuzzy completion date, lots of debugging needed) although still better on the whole than what Quake has. The luxury we have in RMQ is that we can spend the time on these kinds of details. 

"The luxury we have in RMQ is that we can spend the time on these kinds of details."

Eh, what you call luxury others might call a lack of focus. :) Not starting a fight, just saying - different goals, different methods. 

But all depends on the design goals ;) 

Explanation of thought process is a weakness in the project.

They who march to a different beat. 

well, your example above is pretty specific and would definitely fall under the category of gimmick map (this isn't a bad thing, even though 'gimmick' has negative connotations, the idea sounds pretty cool). what i'm saying though is that something like that should just be scripted up in a simpler way instead of building a 'robust' system for only 1 or 2 maps.
it's a waste of resources. 

Gimmick is just a label. There are no bad ideas, only ideas badly done.

A robust sytem will work under a specific idea that I thought of when putting it together in my head, but it'll definately work for others.

Scripting doesn't exist in Quake, so I'd like to remove such a need.

I understand where the objections are coming from, but would like to remove the need for them to be made in the first place.

We're adding flexibility and adaptivity to the game. The only valid objection might be 'but you spoiled it!' which is pretty much invalid ... por hecho. By existing?

Those who don't like what we're doing can play the original game. Those who wanted something else from a remake project can do their own one.

<shrug> 

You can obviously work on whatever you like, no objections there. I just take issue with your defense of spending time on something that nobody except you will ever notice because it takes time away from other things.

In a hobbyist environment, that's fine I suppose, since you don't have to ever ship really. You can work on it indefinitely.

I just find it hard to think that way anymore after 10+ years of making retail games. I can't reconcile spending time on a feature/content that nobody will notice. 

Oh, and this:

"There are no bad ideas, only ideas badly done."

Is flat out wrong. Please. :) 

Yeah I agree. There are most definitely bad ideas.

"Hey let's play Russian roulette!" is not an idea done badly, it's just a bad idea. 

PlanetQuake Neharah page is dead: where can I get Neharah pack and tutorial for mapping ? 

I disagree that nobody will notice the AI enhancement discussed - monsters that don't wander in circles underneath you but instead navigate to your position, or can follow you across a map is a noticeable feature.

Ok, bad ideas do exist. 

@JPL: The Nehahra pack should still be downloadable from Quaddicted (http://www.quaddicted.com/). 

"I disagree that nobody will notice the AI enhancement discussed - monsters that don't wander in circles underneath you but instead navigate to your position, or can follow you across a map is a noticeable feature. "

Not to belabor this too much longer, but the point is that you'll never be watching that unless you're out of ammo and the monster is in your way. Otherwise, the monster would be dead. 

 

 

Oh come on. You know anyone who tries to trick monsters and have them hunt you instead of just blasting them? I have serious doubts.