that was my suggestion because 5 is ridiculously many considering how weak enforcers are and how strong the LG is. You get 3 bonus cells for every enforcer you kill with the LG ffs. I thought it was impossible to really control the cells in dm3rmx and so asked for the cells to be reduced in Quoth.

Maybe you are right about it being not default, but are there any non-Quoth maps that rely on 5 cells per backpack? I found that less cells makes dm3rmx more fun and can still clear it on hard 100% kills. 

Sorry if I seemed overly negative before. To be honest I was wondering how many playtesters you had - thinking back all of the problems were stuff that you'd spot within five minutes of some Quake newb sat in front of the level.

AFAIK the fgd doesn't have the extended flags, since they go outside the worldcraft base set / limitation. Apparently they can be set manually somehow. 

Indeed it makes sense in large base maps.

I wanted to have the LG as a kind of secret weapon that has to be used with consideration, and not put actual cell packs in. It wouldn't be a problem to work around this by adding a Quoth2 detector but I guess a few more cells in Quoth1 wouldn't hurt either. 

If you use GtK 1.5, afaik, you can easily switch between custom content in Quake using the files that came with Quoth without making any new entities or the like. I could be wrong on that, but I seem to remember setting it up with little hassle. 

ToeTag will do that as well - but without source files with proper class headers, it can't. That information just isn't in the PAK files (AFAIK anyway). 

available. I stripped out the entity text for one of them and use it for reference. I haven't created a .def file for it as of yet since I can only guess at the spawnflag settings in a hit or miss kind of way without the source. 

I'll definitely volunteer to create a complete .def file if and when the full range of required info is made available. At the risk of stating the obvious, for each new entity we need to know:

- entity name
- description of entity
- bbox extents
- spawnflags
- keys (and the valid range of values)
- is it meant to be a point entity or a trigger/bmodel (not always obvious)
- anything else I forgot

I understand that a lot of this info is available, but unless I missed something, we don't have access to all of that stuff. (Correct me if I'm wrong, else, wake me up when it's ready). 

I didn't mean to suggest that I'm ungrateful here - I appreciate the effort that has gone into Quoth/2, and I'm looking forward to making some SP maps with the new monsters and functionality. I just don't want to be fumbling around in the dark while I do it. :) 

Oh yeah, and just to chime in here myself. I love the work that went into Quoth2. You guys are at the 18 mile mark of a marathon. Just get some documentation out (at least a .DEF file) and we can get to work supporting your creation! 

Decompile the progs so you can put together a working .def whilst waiting for the approved version? 

Preach already said there aren't any comments in the class headers so where would the information come from? I'm not too keen on reading the source code (decompiled, even) and piecing together spawnflags. 

In other words, I already have a full time job. :) 

 

- entity name
- description of entity
- bbox extents
- spawnflags
- keys (and the valid range of values)
- is it meant to be a point entity or a trigger/bmodel (not always obvious)
- anything else I forgot

How many times do I have to link http://kell.quaddicted.com/quoth/quoth_tutorial.html in this thread...
Apart from the handful of entities I listed in my last post, this information is there for all the new entities.

The quoth naming convention is that anything that's a bmodel gets trigger_ or func_ in front of it, anything else is a point entity(the point sized triggers are a exception to this for obvious reasons). The size of monsters can be grabbed from in game if it's needed, but as a general guide things are either shambler sized or enforcer sized - the vermis is the only real exception to my knowledge. 

you actually sent round emails containing descriptions of most of the new stuff when developing quoth 2. I can probably fish out all the info and post it in this thread when I get home tonight if that's ok. 

'Till you're blue in the face Preach, 'till you're blue in the face 

As I said, I know the bulk of the documentation is done. I know where it is. Thank you. :)

Why not decompile the progs so you can put together a working .def whilst waiting for the approved version?

Why don't you try to dig your way to China with a spoon?

Look, as I've said, I appreciate the effort that has gone into Quoth/2. I understand that this is a project done in people's spare time and I would neither expect nor demand anything more.

I would simply rather wait to have the complete info before I start making .def files or maps, rather than trying to piece together info from web pages, forum posts, map sources, emails or decompiled source code!

This is not just laziness talking - given that I wanted to make a .def file to share (since that hasn't been done yet), I wanted to make sure the information was complete before doing so.

If that makes me sound like an ungrateful bastard, so be it. I'm not in a hurry though, and I don't have a Quoth/2 map on the go, so I have the luxury of waiting. If the docs are never completed, obviously I'll deal with it in one way or another, but you won't hear me bitching about it.

p.s. thanks for the extra info, Preach. :) 

"'Till you're blue in the face Preach, 'till you're blue in the face"

I tried pointing my editor at that web page but it didn't seem to parse correctly. 

GOLD! 

I didn't have any real problems implementing the wider range of features Quoth2 has to offer into my last map! The tutorial at kell.quaddicted.com was very informative, and with a little savvy and common sense I was able to use the new stuff with no major problems, all of the gameplay added to the map in just a couple of good sessions (before playtesting that is). The map sources were very usefull, and I found the map source for the breakables to be highly usefull too, a real good way of getting the right effect for whatever situation you require.

I've never used a def file in my life, so I can't comment on that. 

after I have finished the current rmx map I am working on I will be returning to Quoth straight away, with the intention of making a small episode, probably in no particular rush. I am getting busier all of the time, crikey, I've been mapping for about 11 months, and have made 10 maps and am currently working on an 11th. I was delighted to discover Quoth during the construction of the 1st release, I know that there is much more I can still do with it...
I dont see me kicking this habit of making Quake maps any time soon, but I will probably slow down some, the next project will be made slowly at my leisure, as a relaxing way to disconnect from my daily schedules... 

There's heaps of info on the web pages. More than I would have expected - very informative.

The def file isn't really any different to a FGD file (it's the same thing really, it's just in a different format).

Here's the point though, since it seems like it still isn't clear: It is impossible to create a complete .def file for Quoth 2, because the complete range of information is not available.

There's certainly enough info to make a map. There's not quite enough info to create a comprehensive .def file. That's really all I'm getting at.

If a job is worth doing, it's worth doing properly. If I'm going to make a .def file and distribute it, I want to make sure it's complete.

That is all. 

How about starting on it, taking it as far as you can with the info available, then getting Preach to fill in the gaps...

(I should have been a politician)

Then it's done, innit! 

Don't oppress me with your common sense and logic!

(Real answer: because I'm lazy ;)

I could put most of it together this weekend I suppose. *grumble* 

I was just wondering - I haven't a clue how you write a .def file.