http://tbagri.co.uk/ 

Ricky, you are an idiot for investing time and money in a technology that is going to disappear in a few years. There's your trolling. 

If you want to learn server side, ditch flash and that stuff and learn to program properly first. Java is a good way to go if you want a job, the Java eco system is huge and has lots and lots of opportunities. It can be a bit daunting at first though because there is LOTs of frameworks, libraries, tools etc. out there. Maybe start with something simpler (Ruby on Rails for example) and work your way up.

I can't recommend PHP because even though it is pretty easy to learn, it's a shit language with a shit library on top of a shit engine. It's good for prototyping stuff and small projects, but it's not the way to go if you are interested in really learning to program and how server side stuff works. Yeah yeah, lots of large sites are built with PHP. That's because those sites started out as small projects (of non-programmers) or prototypes and evolved from there. It's not what a serious engineer would do though. 

If what I said about flash was considerred trolling, i won't comment on java. I will provide a link though. 

That was nice of you. I'm just not likeing the unpleasant way you speak to me. It seems very scathing. I did a course in Dreamweaver and Flash, I'm trying to get some certificates. And hopefully get into a career in IT. I'm not in a situation where going to a University and embelishing myself with lots of money and time is an option! And I managed to get my employer to pay for the course because they get a website out of it. So having some guy who you look up to because you already know he knows more than you do call you an idiot, and rubbing the salt into the wound, well, it makes me feel bad.
I mean I know I need to learn more stuff, but teaching yourself something like a server-side programming language, or anything that resembles C++ is, like you say, quite daunting, and I want to start learning it.

I mean atleast with the Flash course I'm learning to use a GUI which incorporates visual elements with programming elements. Im learnign a bit of scrip here, and a bit of script there, and understanding how they they work from a practiacal perspective.

Anyhway I'm just glad I've got the certificates on the way, and that I have gained a bit of confidence (which I'm trying to defend) and may now, hopefully, be able to learn something else now. The question is what? 

That was nice of you. I'm just not likeing the unpleasant way you speak to me. It seems very scathing. I did a course in Dreamweaver and Flash, I'm trying to get some certificates. And hopefully get into a career in IT. I'm not in a situation where going to a University and embelishing myself with lots of money and time is an option! And I managed to get my employer to pay for the course because they get a website out of it. So having some guy who you look up to because you already know he knows more than you do call you an idiot, and rubbing the salt into the wound, well, it makes me feel bad.
I mean I know I need to learn more stuff, but teaching yourself something like a server-side programming language, or anything that resembles C++ is, like you say, quite daunting, and I want to start learning it.

I mean atleast with the Flash course I'm learning to use a GUI which incorporates visual elements with programming elements. Im learnign a bit of scrip here, and a bit of script there, and understanding how they they work from a practiacal perspective.

Anyhway I'm just glad I've got the certificates on the way, and that I have gained a bit of confidence (which I'm trying to defend) and may now, hopefully, be able to learn something else now. The question is what? 

 

But getting certificates in Dreamweaver/Flash or whatever is probably a complete waste of time from an IT career point of view; you'll be much better off just biting the bullet and start learning to code. Like Sleepwalkr said. 

Dreamweaver is a great tool for making static webpages. And 'IT Career' is SOOOO general, it's like your comment denies the existence of Dreamweaver and Flash (?), which are useful things to know if you were making webpages for small businesses, or tried to get a job working for a company which makes webpages for small businesses. Which could be lucrative.

Learning to code is a complete waste of time if you never need to use it! I mean Dreamweaver allows you to make practical uses out of a lot of Javascript without having to learn Javascript.

Im still gald I got the certificate because atleast it shows that I can see things through to completion, that's got to be worth something! 

need courses and university to become a decent programmer. All the resources are available online for free. Also before you called me a troll I never made a comment about your taking a course or getting certificates - I was commenting on how flash is used on most websites, and that I believe it's mostly used in stupid ways.

Then you called me a troll and I called you an idiot ;-). And then I went on and gave you some advice on how you can get started learning server side programming.

Anyways - Dreamweaver and Flash will not get you started in an IT career. Those are design and GUI tools. If you learned some HTML, then that's a good thing. But if you want a career in IT, you must learn to program. And for that, Java is a good option because it is relatively easy to learn and the ecosystem is huge.

jt_, what exactly were you trying to say? That you don't like Java because someone compiled a list of quotes that diss it? I agree with some of those quotes, but what is your advice to someone who wants to get started in IT, esp. server side programming? To learn C? Or Smalltalk? The only alternative would be C# and ASP.NET.

Java has lots of faults and problems, but it's the most commonly used programming language in enterprise programming. And for all its faults (most of which are related to the JRE / VM and not the language itself), the language as such is relatively easy to learn and very versatile. 

I guess it's just a question of where in the IT food chain you want to be. 

In with the fatuous quotes.

"There are two kinds of languages. The ones people complain about and the ones nobody uses." 

The links at the bottom of that page are more helpful than the quotes. ;)

My advice for someone who wants to get into IT is to learn some scripting langauge like python, perl, or ruby (in that order), and learn how to use unix (maybe become a rhce). From there, speciaize on something (networking, web/mail server administration, &c). 

Learning something is better than learning nothing. Flash might be a controverse subject, but if it taught you a bit about design and logic = good. Dreamweaver, I don't know. Seems very pointless to me. 

If I have a menu (or two menus) on every page, and there are 50 pages to my static website, and I want to edit one of the menus, then if I have placed them originally into each age as Library Items, then I cn jus dit the one library item sepeately, and them Dreamweaver will place the new menu into each of the 50 pages automatically.

I can also make a blank layout and then save it as template, import library items into the template, then I can make a new page (.html), place my template into that page, and the page is forever tied to the template and the library items. One clickcustom page creation!

I know that php etc can be used for dynamic web-page creation, but that is getting into the realms of web-apps, which I WANT to learn, but it takes time, y'know?

Other than those things, Dreamweaver is a good text-editor with good auto-complete funtionality and advanced find/replace features.

I dunno - I liked it :) I was using notepad before remember? Having a nice GUI with all of my CSS rules on display when I need them is useful, I cant knock the program either. And you can use it to make .js files, .php files and a whole bunch of stuff that I dont understand ;)

Also:

jt_, SleepwalkR, Kinn, everyone else, seiously thanks for the suggestions. You are not trolls :) sozx 

 

What's your goal? Programming full-time? In what area? Games, web apps, mobile apps?

Work out what you want and then there are great immediate things to do that'll get you closer to that.

If you want to do web-development, back-end stuff, then probably go learn Ruby. http://tryruby.org/ is a great start, a nice interactive tutorial.
After that, go to http://railsforzombies.org/ and do that tutorial. It'll take you through building a Twitter-style social network for zombies.

Do a couple more tutorials, then you're probably at the level where you can find someone to do a project with. http://www.builditwith.me/ is supposed to be good, link up with a designer and make a web app. Alternatively, go to a tech meetup in the area, it's incredibly easy to find people to collaborate with there. Now you've got a web app in your portfolio! Maybe it'll make money! 

If you're into Flash to be a programmer, then go make a game, it'll be good practice. If you finish something cool then it'd be a good portfolio piece to show your game designer skills if that's a route you're going for.

If you're into it to be a web-designer, then go really learn your design fundamentals, grids, colour theory, typography, first.

There are really very few projects where a flash intro is going to be the right choice right now, and most likely, there'll be less in the future with HTML5 coming through. You really don't want to be left behind with this stuff. I have nothing personal against Dreamweaver or Flash by the way, used them a lot in the past, but nowadays they're pretty marginalised.

It sounds like you've learned some HTML skills, and some scripting basics, and you're putting effort in, so that's a awesome start mate. Just make sure you're using your time wisely! 

Is to make money! I would like to be able to hopefully get a job working for a web design company, increase my skills base and gain some experience, with a view to gaining the ability to make larger and more lucrative websites or systems and make larger paychecks. OR get into anything really, just as long as I'm learning more skills which I can use to make money. I think that making games is probably a lot more fun than learning networking systems, but I just dont know which is the more sensible thing to persue at this time. Hell - anything to do with IT would be better for me than general admin/PA work I'm doing now. I just want to get into something with prospects, which I can really master and get paid for. Then I want to get pregnant, buy a house and a car etc and start a family :)

But seriously - I want to get some proper training in programming. Learn how to make games with Flash, Java, everything. Learn how to make programs to do specific things.

I suppose I have answered my own question really (there's that stream of consciousness) - I want to do what SleepwalkR and Kinn said - bite the bullet and learn how to code! The question is basically do I go for a databasing course and learn how to put some real fire into my practical web-design capabilities? Or do I go for the probably less boring and more stimulating Flash or Java coding and learn how to make games and whatnot? Flash seems liek a good idea for that option because I am already familiar with the interface, but Java could be much more useful down the line by the sounds of it.

So I suppose it should maybe be Java AND databasing (Python, Pearl, Ruby as stated above). But in what order? Which is best for a n00b to learn? My heart says Java (because making simple games and stuff could be great fun).

I am literally at a crossroads in my life, I'm pondering this realtime, with intent! Advice? Other than what has already been said?

Thanks again all, Starbuck :) 

 

In layman's terms ;) 

I think the most important question is, do you have time? If so, you could try a few different things to see what works best. If not, I think the fundamentals approach 9ie the boring stuff) suggested is better. 

There's plenty of big companies using it (google[1]), and it has a wide variety of applications.

[1]http://www.python.org/about/quotes/ 

... and THE smartphone doesn't support flash. So, um, ...

Learn web design (which means learning general design a bit of course), learn javascript, learn something server side (python, ruby, etc). Play around with them all a bit, then dive deeper into what takes your fancy the most? 

What would that be? There's more phones in the wild that run android now than apple can shake a stick at.