wait untill 2050 they will own France...

French people have 2 kids max

Arabs have 8 :)

can you guess who will win elections in 2050?

If they live like western people respecting the way of our life... but they don't :(

Anyway I'm just comment with no evil, calm down :\ 

Not that stigmatisation and fear mongering cause ghetto-isation and therefore become a self fulfilling prophecy.

There's also a certain poetic justice in the historically exploitative complaining about exploitation of their resources.

And surely the logical conclusion to increased immigration (given the obvious* right of individuals to choose where they wish to live and to seek to better their own existence) is to promote measures to increase intergration and thereby increase the quality of life for all.


*If anyone wishes to argue the inherent rightlessness of man you may do so, however, I am attempting to take a pragmatic approach and move beyond purely animal instinctualism. 

Nobody is another colour I don't mind who they are. 

this board is soundling increasingly like the political debate in Aus at the moment. I get enough of that in the news thank you very much :)

Really, though, immigration (or as in Aus, the increase asylum seekers) is not a problem. What is a obviously a problem is illegal immigrants. The focus needs to just move from stupid fear mongering of immigrants taking over a country (unlikely to happen anyway considering the persecution they are subjected to by some of the locals) to properly directed policy at the real, more difficult to combat, issue. 

The boats! The boats! 

so their craziness over illegal immigration is pretty crazy to me; people are going to move to where there are jobs and a better economic situation, that makes sense, thats how the vast majority of AMERICANS (and CANADIANS) got to North America, immigration is a natural phenomenon in human populations. My only problem is when people, whatever ethnicity they are or language they speak, bring with them a political identity which trumps their loyalty to the country they have come to. Fundamentalist Muslims seem to have this tendency. It's not racist to attack a set of ideas such as Islam; ahem Trinca not all Arabs are Muslims (far from it) nor are all Muslims Arabs. I wouldn't want Christian fundamentalists who don't believe in science, civil liberties, women's rights or free speech exerting a huge amount of political power over my secular democracy and the same goes for Muslim fundamentalists. 

Just to enlight the discussion, I am pretty sure the vast majority of the people that immigrates to Europe thought their life will be better. They all hope for a better life, with a job, a car, a house, school for kids, etc.. etc.. all what the "modern" life-style can offer and what they do not have in their own country.
But actually we already do not have enough jobs for our citizens, we already have our poor people to support, etc... so for immigrants, it is even harder to get a job, etc... unless you have a really specific skill that can be used by a company.

I guess immigrants have an "Eldorado" ideal view of Europe (particularly Africans), while I think they should rather try to enhanced their own situation in their own country (I have to admit it is quite hard sometimes for many reasons: ie. political, social, etc.. etc...)

What makes me really angry actually, is when people come to my country, and ask for government subsidies, denying our life-style, not respecting our laws, etc. etc.. Hopefully, this is only a minority over the amount of people that immigrates... though... it depends of the former country they come from (North african are particularly disrespectful on that point).
And when we criticize this minority, finger-pointing them saying they have not only rights but also duties, we are charged as racist...

So yes, I am racist: I don't have any respect to people that do not respect my country, my laws, my way of life. I cannot imagine myself moving to another country and not respecting the host country laws. To precise: I am racist on morons.

So back to Trinca's point of view, I clearly understand what is his feeling, I have almost the same point of view, I just make a clear difference in between respectful immigrants and the minority of morons that causes troubles. This last category should be pushed out of our country. 

I really think this way JPL, the day I was flamed I intend to piss other people in here... yes I�m a moron sometimes :p

I just want a good life for my kids, hope this can be possible in the future!

I remember Spirit say in #tf is you don�t stop I will stop talking to you, LOL I provoke whim more :\ I'm a nasty bitch 

... being politically correct ;) 

No, you just have a good way of be ;)

I'm a nasty radical Portuguese 

You seem to be confused what racism is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism might be a start. 

I dont think Trinca is a racist because like he says, his best freind is black. The slang use of the term "nigger" is NOT politically correct, but is used very much in the same context as Axl Rose used it in this song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DavdKjepuQg&feature=fvst

And form what I gather, he giot into a lot of trouble for it. But yeah - caring about the state of your country and not wanting an influx of foreigners who will remain impoverished because of their lack of understanding of your culture, or lack of respect for your culture, or will take advantage of your country's benefit system, is that patriotism? Xenophobia? Or just defending your country and culture? 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woman_Is_the_Nigger_of_the_World

Interesting here - but a different context again. Debatably not racist either..... 

Well, I know all of that, it is just that "racism" is nowadays used for any intolerance behavior.
I personally don't think white are superior to blacks, etc... I don't mind you skin color as soon as you show respect for the country that hosts you.. that's all.. so as said, if I'm charged as a racist for being intolerant with disrespectful people, so I am OK with that...

I guess everybody has the same conservatory behavior as RickyT described... it is not racism, it is preservation instinct... 

Being concerned about unlimited immigration and its consequences is not the issue here. We can see all over Europe and in other immigration countries that letting a large number of people into your country without any form of integration causes lots of problems. Yes, certain groups of people are more problematic than others. But this not what I was upset about. Trinca, you have repeatedly made very stupid and harsh comments about black people and arab people. That is racism. Your comments about homosexuals are bigot and homophobe. If what you really wanted tondo was to make a statement about the problems described above, you should take a bit more time and explain yourself better. Your english is good enough if you make an effort.

Guys, it is very important in this debate not to attribute certain behaviors of immigrants to race. These problems are mostly caused by cultural differences, a lack of education and our failure of properly integrating immigrants from the start. But closing our borders is not an option as we can see in the US. Of course we have to limit the numbers of people who come to Europe because there is a limit to the number of people we can integrate into our culture at any given time. Also, our culture and our systems have to adapt to this situations, and that too takes time. But we have to make an effort as well. These people are here, they are our neighbours and we have no option but to live with them. That requires an effort on both parts. Finger pointing and inflammatory statements help noone.

And stop calling people faggots, dude. It's the 21st century. Peace. 

That missed then. I'm an immigrant - literally.

I'm the minority over here. Complaining about immigrants taking jobs or whatever just means you should be doing your own better.

It's a lot easier to piss and moan about others when you should be looking after your own shit. Them being a different creed is an easy excuse, for simple minds.

I was back in my home town a month ago (Bradford) and left on the day a bunch of white supremacists were busing in - the "English Defence League" what a fucking shower of idiots. Made me ashamed to be English seeing these fucking retards coming in from outside the city to protest or whatever the fucking plan was.

Pretty sure it was to stick the boot in some non-white English people.

Racism doesn't really bother me, but it's a symptom of moronic idiocy - which really pisses me off. 

...Also, our culture and our systems have to adapt to this situations, and that too takes time..

That's where I disagree: why should we particularly do some efforts ? When you visit somebody, are you behaving like if you were still "at home" ? I hope not, I tend to respect my host, and not forcing him to accept my "differences".. The "differences" are there, but I at least try to adapt myself to my host, not the opposite: it make a serious difference IMHO...

Think about that point... 

Racism doesn't really bother me, but it's a symptom of moronic idiocy - which really pisses me off.

Classic!! 

there is middle ground to be reached though. If I visit someone and they act like an ass as if they're better than me simply because it is their house, I dont adapt myself to them. 

Just had a quick look at some of the premium maps in Q3Live - Focal Point is definitely one of the very best ones!! 

Maybe you should think about how WE ruin and rape the "third world" with our "fuck it, I want it now" lifestyle. It's not like immigrants usually think "hey, let's go exploit some rich country's social system" but "hey, I can't live here". 

how about JPL/Spirit go speedmap event? 50 brushes dont take much time... with all this time I think it was already done... 

I'm an immigrant too (even though I came to Aus at a very young age) 

You can continue living in your fantasy world or you can join us in the real world and try to find actual solutions. Do you really think you can stop the violence in your banlieues by telling the people to "respect their host"? This has not worked for the past 30 years neither in your country nor mine, why should it work now?

You do have a point of course: Immigrants must obey the laws of the country they live in and they should have respect for the culture. The best way to get them to do that is to give them education, and to make them learn the language of the country they live in. I strongly believe that our biggest failure as a host country was to think that the immigrants would leave Germany eventually. This is what certain political parties made their official policy on immigration up until the 90ies. As a result of this, we failed to educate the immigrants and more importantly, their kids. Instead, we left them to their own devices.

Obviously, I'm generalizing a lot here. I know that every time I say "the immigrants", I'm being hugely unfair to the large group of people who have immigrated from other countries and who do not cause any problems. I'm talking about the other group, though. 

problem is the uni student business in Melbourne. We have public funded tertiary education which is limited in numbers and then paid tertiary education with more numbers. A lot of overseas students can afford said paid education and the Victorian government is more than happy to take their money, but they fail to provide or even attempt to provide those overseas students with any integration education or support, leaving them to sort it out for themselves or hope that a student body will do so.

The result: universities divided into distinct cliques, groups and attitudes which then stay on after university.