Pjw hit the bull's eye. Perfectly right. 

A wiser man than me once said that the internet is the fastest way of getting from where you don't want to be to where you don't want to go.

I guess we've all just proved that. 

 

I've been quietly reading this and shaking my head as I try to figure out just why such a micro-community as the Quake community in 2011 needs to have this much fucking in-fighting.

Let's have a sanity check here people. 

http://fuckyeahthomyorke.tumblr.com/post/3489442140 

...i like my coffee like i like my women.

covered in bees. 

wished I hadnt.

I see the elitism is still around. I also see that now there seem to be two tiers of it.

Question 1: if you dont like rmq and dont want to play it read about it, what stops you from ignoring it?

I have managed to both not read about it and have also managed to not play it.

Question 2: If you, and you alone, will determine the content of your mod, then dont release betas guys.

I know you talk about listening to constructive feedback etc, and maybe you really do, but it doesnt come across that way. 

Is someone going to finally lock this trainwreck or something? :P 

but it doesnt come across that way.

Well, our discussion is internal and probably won't ever be published. We can also listen to only so much - some changes take longer than others since theres less motivation to champion them.

Thats taking into account the hundreds of other little elements needed to advance.

There is a way of making sure that a given critics feedback gets into the mod in some form or other, but from what I've seen the majority of critics either aren't interested, lack the skills or staying power.

Its difficult to take feedback from this forum in general because of the tone. But the reason why I and others bother is because we are interested in feedback. Its why we release demos as well.

This seems to have offended many of the more insecure members of the community who feel threatened by the mod or have some other grievance.

Like you say, we're not holding a gun to anybody's head to play it.

In terms of responding to feedback, there's only been two SP demos - the second one being much better received than the first. We're interested to see how the third is received, though we don't expect and 180 degree changes of opinion. 

It seems that the weapons are the big sticking point for many, even team members and previous team members.

As has been mentioned here, the id1 SG feels like a pistol, whereas we wanted ours to feel like, well, a shotgun.

Our DBS is similar to the Doom1 or Quake2 version, being more of a slow blunderbuss.

The main issue is that the model changes we made were minimal and we didn't change the names. So people approach the weapon set assuming its the same.

I still people peppering enemies from miles away with the DBS for example.

There's no neat way to solve this preconception issue. Maybe a player guide is the only way to do it. 

The main for many will be that the DBS makes a mockery of so many monsters. You haven't beefed up the strength of monsters to warrent the addition of a hyper shotgun. Quake was designed with the SSG it has. This wasn't an oversight by iD. Doom 2 only got it's super shotgun because they added so many tough monsters, and greatly increased the count of regular ones. If the SSG had been in Doom 1 it would have felt stupid because the only tough monster it had was the Baron (and maybe Cacodemon).

Quake's weapon balance was designed around the lower count of monsters that Quake supported. If the tech had supported Doom 2 levels of monsters I'm sure iD would have rethought their weapon balance.

Unless you're going to add half a dozen monsters that are as tough or tougher than a shambler I think people will just say it's OTT. A tutorial to tell the players the shotgun is more powerful will not change this fact. This is further compounded by the ideology of not making monsters tough in health but just making them do huge damage. Fights are over in an instant, and have a more binary feel in their result (ie I lost shitloads of health or he did).

As another point, Tronyn's new map has much more powerful shotguns, but he also beefed up the monster count to compensate. RMQ demo 2 barely ever has you fighting two monsters at the same time, and when said monsters can be felled in one hit, combat feels meh.

----
TL DR: Don't change the weapons just because.The weapons should suit what the player is fighting, and in RMQ so far they don't. 

dbs should shoot one sg blast and a slug, gl with that 

We're in the process of beefing up the monsters. Balance is always the slowest part of the process. 

Unless you're going to add half a dozen monsters that are as tough or tougher than a shambler I think people will just say it's OTT. A tutorial to tell the players the shotgun is more powerful will not change this fact. This is further compounded by the ideology of not making monsters tough in health but just making them do huge damage. Fights are over in an instant, and have a more binary feel in their result (ie I lost shitloads of health or he did).

this is currently the main problem with rmq. the monsters, especially the ogres, all do insane damage and have lightning quick reflexes when choosing to attack.
what we end up having is basically a map full of quoth1 droles and quoth2 defenders. it feels like everything is overpowered.

there's so much number inflation going on, that it's hard not to justify it as needed too. you basically have World of Warcraft late-game PvP-- everyone does so much damage that fights are over before any player skill has been shown. And then there was otp's remark that Shamblers are getting general purpose damage reduction, which strikes me as hilarious because it completely mirror's WoW's much derided resilience stat which was brought in for exactly the same purpose.

finally, on the SSG specifically, it's way overpowered from it's original incarnation. there really should be a new weapon at this point. the plus side is by adding a new shotgun, you can have it use an appropriate amount of shells for the damage it causes. 

 

having a super powerful shotgun of some type does open up new gameplay possibilities.
it allows more higher health enemies or enemies in higher numbers without having to give up SNG or GL/RL and trivializing the rest of the map. 

I realising the same. Its meant as more of a pro weapon as per the Dooom2 version.

Vs Ogres it makes combat very one shot as has been mentioned, because the distances involved aren't very far. Normally you run into Ogres practically face to face.

In the current version the SG is fine against Ogres.

The Shambler has some abilities which weren't showcased and are still in progress to some extent such as a more electrical or earthing ranged attack and an additional spawnflag ability you'll see soon.

The 'don't raise the health' concept is to not raise it across the bar to deal with the generally more aggressive enemies, that said, it does raise depending on the common combats against a given creature. For the last demo level, probably a SG only would have been good.

The key we're looking for is to provoke that same 'holy shit!' fear we all had when playing the game for the first time. Everything felt a bit more evil. 

 

Blah blah blah blah blah.

The reason RMQ will never satisfy the Quake community is because it presumes to call itself Remake Quake. Quake is a game that is loved (almost fanatically) by a lot of people here, so 'remaking' it is just going to piss them off. There's a hint of arrogance about it.

If this project had a different title like 'Quake: Advanced' or 'Quakeish' or something equally inoffensive then everybody would praise the amount of skill that's clearly going in to its creation.

The power of rhetoric should never be underestimated, especially not on the interwebs. 

Engorge your Quake Mamary in 2 weeks! 

if the title is pissing people off, that is ridiculous. 

what I am interested in knowing: current mappers involved? 

Me, Rj, Gb, RickyT23, Lardarse and Vigil.

As might be expected, a lot of the maps fall on the monolithic side.

There are other mappers on the roster, but not actively mapping - either providing feedback or working on other content. 

although I dont think I've played anything by Lardarse and only one map by gb.

cheers. I wil go back under a rock now and wait for the final release. 

THAT implies that it is better - a progression forwards on some scale.

I'm glad though that this thread seems to be going more towards constructive shit now though. I also felt meh about the shotgun in the newest demo.
I actually enjoyed the 1st demo more, but that's just cause I love the menacing atmosphere of Ijed maps. I really can't think of many mappers who get that aspect of things better.