Ok so my opinion is that the bosses in souls games rock because they force the player to master the game in order to progress. This trickles down in to all the combat mechanics and makes the player engage with their character build in a way that I haven't really experienced in another game.

In the other corner there are players who hate the bosses because they see them as a giant artificial difficulty spike that gets in the way of the enjoyment of exploration and discovery.

I am interested to hear people's opinions on this and also what they think the souls games could do better in this area. 

As someone who heard of From Software during the Armored Core days, I think Dark Souls is similar to an old 1990s RPG series named King's Quest, which was developed by From. Of course, DaZ, you haven't played King's Quest and Armored Core in general, but still I think we gamers need to pay attention to those two series and how similar they are to Souls, because they were important for From's success in the 1990s and 2000s. By the way, please note that Armored Core is a series of mecha video games. 

1. Difficulty spike is extremely disproportionate compared to main game. I.e. not 5-10 times as difficult but more like 20-50 times.

2. Co-oping them is laughably easy i.e. a boss that is 50 times harder than a mob will only be twice as hard as a mob in coop.

3. Definitely does NOT distill combat mechanics down as the mechanics are very different to the mobs: Less exploring around mobs, less drawing them out, less use of scenery, instead repetitive attempts at learning one enemy's attacks.

4. Thematically out of place on the following counts:
A. Boss arenas completely disparate and separate to the complex and interconnected aesthetics in the rest of the game.
B. Lengthy repetitive boss combat spoils the general flow of exploration.
C. Being locked into an arena is unthematically artifical.
D. Basically goes from an action RPG to a beat-em-up fighting game and back again.

5. Bonfire save points often pointlessly far from the boss arena (and equally pointlessly near afterwards).

6. Huge difficulty spike particularly exacerbates lack of difficulty settings. 

If the bosses were well balanced, harder than mobs but not 2+ hours on 1 arena hard, were set in more complex and well themed areas, encouraged use of tactics and reactions rather than just repetitive learning, were significantly boosted for coop, weren't locked in as arenas, had better save points then they would be fine.

As it happens a lot of the bosses are aesthetically spectacular (as are many of the mobs) but are wasted in completely out-of-place gameplay. 

<Shambler> i am assuming that 90% of the gameplay will be fine and the bosses with be stupid out of context boring arenas that are unplayably difficult
<Daz_> I mean you're wrong but I cba to argue
<Shambler> BECAUSE WHY HAVE ANY FORM OF BALANCE???
<skacky_> DS3 bosses are honestly not too hard compared to bloodborne
<Shambler> that doesn't mean they're good skacky
<skacky_> with the possible exception of pontiff sulyvahn or nameless king
<Shambler> also half the people on func cooped them anyway
<skacky_> I think they're very good
<skacky_> well soul of cinder is also pretty difficult, gwyn it isn't
<Shambler> aesthetically maybe
<Daz_> learning and eventually beating the bosses is one of the best parts of souls for me :P
<skacky_> it's funny because I find the levels harder than the bosses in souls games
<skacky_> except in bloodborne
<skacky_> one exception would be DS1 anor londo, it's a really hard level with an equally hard boss
<skacky_> ornstein and smough gave me PTSD
<skacky_> but then you have blighttown which is hard as fuck and quelaag which is very easy in comparison
<skacky_> or catacombs and fucking pinwheel
<Shambler> levels are mostly easy and great fun
<Daz_> FUCK catacombs
<Shambler> learning and eventually beating the bosses is by far the worst, most boring, most out of place, more repetitive, most immersion spoiling pile of shit in any game, especially ds3
<Daz_> and BlightTown
<Shambler> you get this amazing fantasy world to explore, full of interconnected madness, amazing atmosphere, bonkers monsters and such a cool vibe
<skacky_> and strong opponents to prove your worth
<skacky_> makes perfect sense to me
<Shambler> then it all just fucking stops for 2 hours as you do the same thing over and over a-fucking-gain in some arbitrary arena counting fucking attack timings and getting bored off your fucking tits and all that immersion just flies out the fucking window
<skacky_> the poison swamp in DS3 is pretty difficult but it's just a far easier blighttown
<Shambler> strong opponents are fine
<Shambler> the tougher mob enemies are good
<Shambler> you have to try hard and fight hard but it's part of a satisfying process
<@Bal> the only thing that kept the bosses bearable for me was reading up how to kill them online after my first attempt at each
<Shambler> repeating the same damn arena is the dullest thing ever
<skacky_> you're really weird
<Shambler> no you are
<skacky_> I have tons of fun figuring out how to beat a boss
<skacky_> I'm not the only one
<skacky_> a lot of people love souls games because of the bosses
<skacky_> yeah losing your souls can be annoying but that's part of the game
<Shambler> yes there's a fucking bunch of you, and pandering to your weird fucking puritanical work ethic maschocism ruins what would be a pretty much perfect game
<@Bal> I don't mind them soo much, but I probably would have stopped playing the games without a wiki :D
<@Bal> just cause I'd get bored redoing them over and over
<skacky_> also it's really satisfying to beat a boss on your first attempt in your first run (wink wink nito)
<Daz_> git gud
<Shambler> there you go daz
<Shambler> you ARE the problem
<Daz_> lol
<Shambler> bal is correct
<skacky_> I always loved the really epic (I fucking hate that word but here it's perfecly appropriate) feeling you get when you fight a boss
<skacky_> it's the culmination of all your trials and tribulations in the gauntlet before 

<Shambler> skacky, they can be epic without being dull, imba, repetitive
<skacky_> honestly there's not a single DS3 boss that is imba
<Daz_> I don't agree with you at all Shambler. DS series is s breath of fresh air where you have to actually demonstrate mastery of the game in order to progress.
<Shambler> skacky, if it was remotely proportional to the trials before, like only up to 10 times harder instead of 200 times harder, it might make sense
<skacky_> exactly
<@Bal> they aren't imba, but I feel they are very frustrating if you go at them with no info at all
<Shambler> daz: tell that to scampie and czg who cooped the bosses i did solo
<skacky_> Shambler a lot of people play these games solo
<Shambler> also for me, DS3 was great becaose of everything else
<Daz_> well coop is there if you've had enough
<skacky_> I do, I don't play coop
<Daz_> its the relief valve
<Shambler> also if people want miserably boring and frustrating games, that's what skill settings are for
<skacky_> if you want an imba boss look no further than bed of chaos
<Shambler> no i don't
<Shambler> i want quality, balance, pleasure
<skacky_> there is not a single boss in DS3 that is remotely like bed of chaos
<Daz_> because it was bad
<Shambler> anyway i really liked rotted greatwood, only took 2 goes but that was spectacular because it was spectacular
<skacky_> yeah but greatwood is piss easy
<Shambler> bonkers boss, dramatic events, etc etc
<Shambler> obviously for 1337 git gudders like you
<skacky_> not, greatwood is just a pushover
<@Bal> greatwood was the tree testicles?
<skacky_> it's really hard to die against him unless you're really stupid
<skacky_> yes
<@Bal> yeah that's one of the few I got first try
* Daz_ is really stupid
<skacky_> lol
<Shambler> Daz: <Daz_> git gud
<skacky_> iudex gundyr was probably the single best first boss in the souls series
<@Bal> I'm still mad onion knight died right away against the big sword guy, wtf
<Shambler> iudex gaycunt was fine yes
<Shambler> that seemed nicely balanced
<@Bal> I read online "don't worry onion knight will kill him alone"
<@Bal> onion knight runs in, instadeath
<Daz_> weird
<skacky_> Bal siegfried does insane damage against yhorm
<Daz_> he took a few hits on my game and was ok
<Shambler> also coop is a kinda skill setting for bosses......except it's stupidly easy
<skacky_> you can effectively just run around and let him fight yhorm for you
<@Bal> he literally didn't have time to attack once
<skacky_> lel
<@Bal> yeah that's what I started doing
<Daz_> too much Seigbrau man
<@Bal> for 5 seconds, before he died :D
<Shambler> if mobs = 1x difficulty, then tougher bosses = 200x difficulty, and coop = 1.5x difficulty
<skacky_> but then again yhorm is probably the only "bad" boss in the game
<skacky_> because you need a special weapon to beat him
<Daz_> no
<Daz_> I killed him in my 1st playthrough with regular
<skacky_> and he's definitely not as fun as storm ruler in demon's souls who uses the exact same gimmick
<Daz_> with no onionman
<@Bal> it was ok
<skacky_> how many hours did you take Daz_ lol
<Daz_> fucking forever
<skacky_> well yeah I mean you can beat him like that
<skacky_> but the 'intended' way to beat him is with stormruler
<Daz_> I just thought that was how the boss was
<Daz_> didnt notice the sword pickup at his throne
<Shambler> daz i bet that was the best bit of the game by far eh, i mean forget the madness of the first town, or the beauty of ithryll, or the interconnected splendour of cathdreal, i bet doing that boss fight over and fucking over for hours really made the game
<Daz_> the worst part of the souls games are hte fucking quests tbh
<skacky_> some people seem to dislike ancient wyvern but it's not really a boss per se, more of a gauntlet with a boss creature in it
<Shambler> what a pair of cunts you both are, i can't believe i've actually had some serious discussions with you morons in the past
* Shambler puts everyone on ignore except bal 

<Daz_> lol
<skacky_> dude, you loved thi4f
<skacky_> your opinions are invalid
<@Bal> I'm kinda worried that I'm half-agreeing with Shambler :\
<Shambler> YOUR FUCKING FACE IS INVALID
<skacky_> worse taste than kona
<@Bal> ouch
<skacky_> I would love to see Shambler play against some bloodborne bosses like father gascoigne or oprhan of kos
<skacky_> just to see streams of blood pour from his prolapsed anus
<Shambler> why
<Shambler> i'd quit?
<Shambler> i learnt my lesson with gundyr part2
<Shambler> part 2
<skacky_> if you don't like the bosses in dark souls there's no way you'd like bosses in bloodborne, who are much faster, much more aggressive and much harder overall
<Shambler> which again ruined a really cool bit of the game, going back to the same area in a different.....errr however it was different
<Shambler> yes no shit you said that already
<Shambler> i also wouldn't like hammering nails into my bellend to see if i could get just the right pretty pattern after 3245 attempts
<Daz_> lol
<Shambler> god you lot are awful

...the main problem is the git-gud-wankboys. HTH. 

I only played ds1.


Currently stuck at the dlc Boss Manus http://darksouls.wiki.fextralife.com/Manus%2C+Father+of+the+Abyss

I think he's difficult on purpose, but there's a bit too much:
- will kill you in ~3 hits, sometimes two.
- you have to learn when it's possible to heal
- has three attacks that, while they're readable okish, require you to jump in different directions (I think...), without any perceivable reason for that in the game world
- you need to use an item to deflect one of his attacks, but there's no real way to know that
- on the way to him, there's one ranged mob that I have no idea how to avoid; it can push you down a ledge into your death ~5-10% of the runs
- there's loads of respawning humanity, but at this time, no coop play because nobody is ever available there
- this is the only boss, where the summon sign for a npc is inside the boss area
- the npc that is summoned is almost useless, as it does almost zero damage and the boss switches focus to you for quite a while when you approach him
- the level before was kind of easy

In general I think:
- the bosses are important; the levels often feel like a built-up, which is a good thing.
- however, you WILL die on your first try, because you have no idea what's coming and the bosses do not pick up level themes at all.
- difficulty spike on some of them is a bit too much, but i think that's due to design issues
- bosses show most obviously where there's a disconnect between the graphics and the entity system, and for me, this is often a problem. Examples: I have problems if the timing is a matter of learning when to jump in relation to his animation" rather than "jump when you would jump in reallife". Legs are attackable? Yes, but in reality you would always receive damage. These things make the bosses so hard, because it turns into a guess-game what to do. Can I block these two giant swords? Probably not, in comparison that I have problems blocking other stuff sometimes. However, with this one boss, it's entirely possible.
- glitchy camera/controls: the sheer size of them combined with having to approach them close quarters sometimes blatantly shows the problems with the controls
- difficult bosses work much better if there are multiple routes available, because you can just choose another route and return later to it. Only works if the level design supports it, though. It doesn't work if there's a 30 min trip between them. 

Git. Gud. 

And translates to "I know I'm wrong and deluded, so I'm going to bring in cringy pseudo-macho boasting to try to desperately prove I'm superior". God I'd hate myself if I had to resort to that. 

I made a mistake in my "Dark Souls/King's Quest". King's Quest was an adventure game series not made by From. When I accidentally used the term "King's Quest", I was trying to mean "King's Field". So King's Field was an old 1990s RPG series made by From. 

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/89347071776219150/A2CE865CC46CBDB30CE6B05A257000F4C9B838E0/ 

I am not seeing anything obvious here. 

Yeah I did restart, no luck. The only "warning" message in game is when I try to click okay, it says I need to select at least one attribute to level up....NO SHIT DS3!!

Anyway, I sacked it off, tried to spend my 86k souls so I don't keep losing them, got rid of 40k then tried the boss and lololol okay whatever homz. 

<Shambler> HOW MANY MOTHERFUCKING SHITCUNTING WANKFUCKING TIMES AM I GOING TO GET KNOCKED OFF THE FUCKING TREE ROOTS BY THOSE FUCKING CUNTS SHOOTING THE CUNTING FUCKING JAVELINS AT ME THAT YOU CAN'T CUNTING DODGE BECAUSE YOU'RE BALANCING ON A FUCKING TREE ROOT ABOVE INSTANT DEATH THE FUCKING CUNTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
* Shambler FOR FUCK'S CUNTING FUCKSAKE
<onetruepurple> Shambler: are you frustrated?
<Shambler> nope

I made it down eventually. The ice is cool, the crabs are cool, the Milwood cunts are still cunts. I tried the optional boss once but there were no summons so I sacked it off. Did the main boss coop though. Actually well balanced for coop. Must be an extremely miserable experience solo. Playing through this DLC overall (lovely scenery, good exploration, cool designs, really weird and cool enemies) and then having the discussion about bosses and seeing the other points of view in their favour....only made me realise how utterly wrong those points of view are and how chronically, jarringly out of place boss arenas are combat-wise. Definitely something only to be tolerated / got-out-of-the-way, not enjoyed.

Maybe there should be a separate DS3 boss arena mini-game for the freaks and perverts??

P.S. Obvz get the DLC if you haven't already. 

the ice arena boss was fucking amazing and you are an actual physical shit for thinking otherwise :D

ps love you 

Haven't played any Souls game in a while so I'm playing this again, with a regular knight, melee only character. I'm at the catacombs of Carthus right now. I still stand by what I said: the levels are far more difficult and challenging than the bosses.

Cathedral of the Deep in particular is a really nasty place and I died a lot there. The huge knights with their broadswords are really tough and some of the ambushes are pretty damn dangerous. The giants are pretty easy to beat though. I found Farron Keep to be a breeze this time around, I downed the Stray Demon and even invaded someone through the Farron covenant. The bosses are really easy compared to the levels, though.

Iudex Gundyr: This one is pretty tough, gotta admit, but once you get his patterns right he's not that hard.
Vordt: Just stay close to his legs and he won't hit you, though you gotta be careful of the frostbite aura after a while (I found the Irithyll knight just after Siegward far more difficult than Vordt)
Curse-rotten Greatwood: Piss easy.
Crystal Sage: Just dodge his projectiles and don't tarry. I killed him pretty fast. If anything the mobs between the bonfire and his arena are far more dangerous than him.
Deacons of the Deep: Really easy as well, beat the on my first try. You just have to be careful not to get overwhelmed. Like Crystal Sage, the monsters between the nearest bonfire and the boss are far more dangerous.
Abyss Watchers: Was a bit cocky and got slaughtered the first time, but I beat them rather easily on my second. It's important to roll at the right time to avoid getting hit constantly. The flaming sword looks threatening but it's not too difficult to predict where it will land and what type of attack it'll do.

Comparatively I found the black knight near the Farron crystal lizard very difficult, the Irithyll knight just before Path of Sacrifice took me a few tries like I said, the two assholes just before the entrance to Farron Keep also almost killed me at Ember + 7 Estus + for some reason. Keep in mind that I almost never use parry because I'm shit at timing this ability. 

I would agree that the levels are harder than the bosses. I can't even really decide who the most difficult boss was...perhaps the final one just due to how long it takes. Nameless King perhaps as well.

The hardest spot I encountered was starting Irithyll city with those frost ghost knights. I had to come back after exploring and upgrading to actually handle them.

I also found the Farron guards to be surprisingly difficult! Cathedral of the Deep is probably the first really meaty and menacing section of the game...and one of my favorites. 

the levels are far more difficult and challenging than the bosses.

Git gud.

The huge knights with their broadswords are really tough and some of the ambushes are pretty damn dangerous.

Git gud.

Cathedral of the Deep in particular is a really nasty place and I died a lot there.

Git gud.

(I found the Irithyll knight just after Siegward far more difficult than Vordt)

Git gud.

the mobs between the bonfire and his arena are far more dangerous

Git gud.

monsters between the nearest bonfire and the boss are far more dangerous

Git gud.

Comparatively I found the black knight near the Farron crystal lizard very difficult

Git gud.

Honestly Skacky, you are DEMENTED if you find the bosses easier than the run-of-the-mill easy mobs. Are you sure you're playing the right game?? Maybe you should be on some nightmare mode beat-em-up, or QuakeLive Rocket Arena against some pro-players?? 

...that post #167 was sponsored and/or ghost-written by Baker. 

I also found them to be easier than some of the normal mobs. It's not as bad as Dark Souls 2 though where I killed about 90% of the bosses on my first attempt but got stuck for a long time fighting normal mobs. 

Level design actively works against you with regular mobs whereas the boss arenas usually give you plenty of room to move around the bosses. Only exception would be High Lord Wolnir because you die if you get to the Abyss, but even then you have tons of room to move around.

I mean, don't tell me you found the Cathedral Knights on the rafters in the Cathedral of the Deep easier than, say Deacons of the Deep or the Curse-rotted Greatwood. These assfuckers are really hard because the space is really small and they face you by default, so you can't sneakily backstab them. Plus they seem to have magnetic boots because they rarely fall. Even the crossbow + undead doggos gauntlet at the start of Cathedral of the Deep before the Chapel of Cleansing is harder than the Crystal Sage boss that was just before it. 

the game became practically unplayable in terms of difficulty after the Dancer. The Knights after that are fought with as multiples and theres the assholes that heal them. I had to do a suicide run to the next bonfire (I had quit the game for about a month due to the difficulty spike) 

Yeah Lothric Castle is really difficult. The Dancer of the Boreal Valley is a very tough boss with very hard-to-read patterns. Then you have the whole castle chock full of hard enemies and then you have the fucking Dragonslayer Armour which packs a punch and was one of the hardest bosses on my first playthrough, just because it's so aggressive. And that's not counting the upper levels with the archives and all. 

Also another thing to consider regarding my 'success ratio' with bosses is that I usually fare much better against beasts and demons than humanoids, mostly because I'm awful at timing parries. Since most enemies you face in the game as humanoids, I tend to not be extremely good against them, while areas populated by beasts are far easier by comparison. The bosses I found the hardest in DS3 were Pontiff Sullyvahn, Dancer of the Boreal Valley, Dragonslayer Armour, Nameless King, Champion Gundyr and Soul of Cinder. They're all humanoid.