.. is leaded by Internet Anarchists !! Kill them all :P 

piracy 

Spy wisest words today!!! 

The real problem is that all the piracy arguments dilute the real issue to no end and eventually play into the hands of those who want more control over the internet. Guys like the TPB founders give them the arguments they need to change the law in order to protect their property.

That.

It's why I disagree with the TBP verdict despite my personal objections to the individuals concerned or my views on copyright.


Oh, and Might I speculate that you too have a chip on your shoulder, perhaps due to personal (or friend's) experiences with record labels??

Got it in one, several of my friends have horror stories of how they've been treated by record labels. Obviously this doesn't cover all labels, and the more interpendant labels tend to be a lot better at actually being representatives for the artists rather than just ripping them off. However, it is standard practise amongst a lot of labels that the costs of recording/production/etc will be 'loaned' to the artist, to later be repayed from the artists share of profits on releases/tours/merch. They will often also take intellectual ownership of the artist's work so that even if they wish to change labels or self-publish in future, their current work still belongs to the guy in a suit with a CD plant...

(and that doesn't even cover the irrelevance of such gate keepers given current communication methods (teh internetz) or my fear that the TBP verdict is step 1 towards the internet being an 'entertainment medium' rather than a means of communication (imagine if churches (the main purveyors of knowledge and written word at the time) had been given the right under law to regulate exactly who published what once the printing press was invented... (yes, I know there are holes in the analogy thank you, it serves to highlight my concerns with the ruling, not as a robust logical argument against it)). 

Got it in one,

Well... that and I was flame baiting ;) 

In regards to your last paragraph, I think it just underlines the point that piracy is bad for free speech because it opens the door to lobbyists and big companies changing the law. I mean, to an extend I think their concerns are absolutetly legitimate, because I belive that piracy is stealing. But if piracy wasn't so rampant and if there weren't guys like the TPB people spitting in the face of the industry, it might have been a lot harder for them to press for such rigid copyright law.

But then, I think the real problem is that copying software or downloading music just doesn't register as theft with the majority of people nowadays. They don't think it's wrong, thus they don't care if it's illegal. I guess if you really wanted to reduce piracy, you'd have to start there, educating people, but not only with a huge stick, but with a carrot here and there. I believe that that is the biggest error the music and film industry have done. They have been way too late for this internet thing, so napster and what have you have filled that void before they could introduce legitmate, cheap and easy to use ways for people to get media. 

That is a lot of sense. 

well said spider-man 

yeah - that was pretty cheesy 

I am looking for one or two people to endure the pain of playing through (or just knock at the doors of) old ex-commercial Quake mods and file compilation CDs. Basically take 3 typical screenshots and write a bit of a description (~300 words seems ok, less is good) about the content and if possible something about the history of the specific thing.

Stuff like the ones at http://www.quaketerminus.com/addon.htm (and believe me, I can top Dark Hour in pointlessness. After all some Dark Hour maps show a certain amount of crap-fetishism.).

Send me a mail if you think you might be able to do this. 

Great argument, by the way

That's funny, cause i used that to show you your own stupidness when you stated that the pirate bay guys were doing illegal stuff.

And yes, you're way too unfocused and close-minded to continue a discussion.

lol, unfocused is almost an anagramm of confused :) 

too stupid 

If you are so well educated in the finer points of swedish (and EU) law, maybe you could explain to me what they actually got convicted for if they weren't doing anything illegal. Or point me to an article that can. Because last time I checked, Sweden was a constitutional state, no? 

Quiet Sleepy! Damn fool. Too dumb to stop arguing :(

But meh, since this apparently finished discussion keeps going in the form of hypocritical personal insults (your mum is fat btw) I will attempt to explain the relevant laws as I understand them from various articles (and in particularly lay man esque terms ;)


The actual laws that megaman keeps vaguely alluding to without actually once directly referencing a law is a piece of EU legislation which (being the EU and being technological law) is incredibly badly worded, but effectively states that a 'service provider' cannot be held liable for data transfered through their servers or any uses of that data. Using this and the concept of TBP as a service provider they (will? did?) attempt to appeal on the basis that their is already a law to cover their arses that explicitly states they are not responsible for their user base (it'll come up again in one of the appeals I guess). In fact, this is largely the reason that half the charges got dropped on the 2nd day of trial after the IFPI lawyers realised that unlike the US, the EU has said law to protect service providers (and as shocking as you may find it, top level entertainment industry lawyers are actually quite smrat pipple).

What they then proceeded to go after TBP for (and what they now face jail time for) was profiteering from what they knew to be illegal activity. This is a much greyer area, and involved profit/cost discussion (a whole different area that I could rant about (see tax write offs based on... later), presentation of evidence that TBP staff knew the illegal nature of their site (hey, look, they posted emails mocking cease and desist notices in childish vitriol and online epithets, that'll do it), etc.

Given there was no existing law around digital profiteering per se (there are of course various semi-relevant laws on everything from ISPs to war profiteering or illegal distillation) it was up to the judge to make a decision and set a 'pre-ce-dent' (not the black dude). It's similar to how the legal systems of most western countries work really and hardly 'a gross breach of swedish law'...


Oh, and SleepwalkR seems to be one of the few people viewing this beyond a simple 'OMG they stole so they should go to jail they're no better than pedos' or 'OMG they're totally innocent you doesn't understand people my age AMG I WANTZ WAREZ' so please try to avoid insulting his intelligence to try and discredit his points. Or at least use multi-syllabic ones so you're on almost the same level... 

On a different note, 16666 is such a pretty number 

was giving up thinking it was a virut almost.

So what do people use for backing up data these days? USB? external HD's? 

SleepwalkR has posted most of the (very few) comments actually worth reading in this discussion. Amusingly enough, he's also possibly the only person actually using his brain and thinking about the issue as a whole, rather than simply regurgitating his own (or worse, someone else's) preconceived ideas.

I don't know if you're calling him stupid just to be a dickhead or you genuinely believe it. Either way I strongly suggest you take a step back, think beyond yourself, read and absorb what is being said, and actually think about it... rather than trying to prove how much smarter you are than everyone else here. 

Thanks for summing up the juristic arguments for me. It's interesting that a law that in my opinion makes sense in most situations (web forums, ISPs and other service providers) is used to protect TPB. Although that seems wrong to me, that's just my opinion and it's good and correct that the plaintiffs dropped those complaints because, well, it's a law and it has to apply to everyone.

The other charges are a different deal and sound like a bit of a construct to throw those guys in jail and to create an example. We'll see if that arguments holds in the appeals.

But that doesn't change my opinion that those guys well deserve a punishment for their actions for the aforementioned reasons. Their disregard for the legitimate interests of the content industry pisses me off. Noone can seriously try and tell me that they didn't know what they were doing. But whether they should be convicted on the grounds of an offense that is constructed remains another matter. I'm not sure on that. I do believe in the system in general, so if their appeals don't hold in court, I'd feel confident in their being punished with good right.

The entire discussion is probably moot anyway, since everything in this matter has gone wrong for ten years, and it will be hard to reverse and educate people to respect intellectual property. My own take on this is that it's a personal decision everyone has to make. I for one think that _some_ piracy is ok - it has always been done (tape copies, cd copies... whatever), but only in cases where it would be otherwise impossible to obtain the files in question. I know that this cannot be applied as a general rule, however. I just wish people would think about the consequences of their actions a bit more. Or you go ahead and say: I'll pirate everything I want, but then you'll have to accept the punishment if you get caught (much like in shambler's speeding analogy earlier). But don't go and justify your actions with moral principles like free speech or freedom of information. Those don't apply to theft - that's my opinion.

Just yesterday I thought about getting a cracked copy of Traktor DJ Pro, but ultimately decided against it because the program is 100 Euros, which is affordable to me so I should go to the store and buy it. But if I hear a song that I cannot get on iTunes or beatport or whatever, I'll try and download a copy someplace else. It's a personal decision I make and I can live with it because I buy lots of other stuff. I even buy most of the shows I pirate when the DVDs come out in my country, not only because they offer better quality and some extra features, but because I feel that the people who have put work into them should get their money.

Oh, and thanks for the backup, Frib and nonentity. 

Im not even clever.
And Im not about to go pretending that I am taking an unbiased viewpoint towards this issue, because Im not biased in TPB's favour or against it, but I am biased against arrogance, ignorance, stupididty and towards common sense.

Now, TPB is a website which:

1 - Offers links to download files which were illegally distributing copyrighted materials, i.e. illegal.

(megmn - "im not reading this, no they didnt, thats not fair, there was no such thing there, it wasnt the website owners fault that they didnt take illegal files from there site, or warn the perpetrators, or change there website into a licensed pay-per-download site or a nice website with pictures of kittens (copyrited I'd imagine, although no human can take the credit for the beauty of a kitten......heh))

2 - The website was called "The PIRATE Bay", it was not a website about traditional 16th century pirates, or bays, but actually a website full of "pirated" media (as in "video piracy is a crime, you wouldnt walk into a shop and steal a DVD, you wouldnt walk into a shop and steal a television set)

Now to say that the website owners arent at all responsible for DAMAGES to the COPYRITE OWNERS through LOSS OF INCOME is basically just a load of bollocks.

(megmn - "no it isnt, the copyrite owners are all dicks, its OK to steak from people who have more money than me/you because they dont care about me/you, an why should they care they have loads of money already")


Not to put words in your mouth here Megaman 

USB for me - they're big and cheap enough, and stupidly simple to use. If you're wanting to back up lots of stuff (game / film archives) then external disk is probably your best bet.

Thanks nonentity and SleepwalkR - I now understand the various points of the arguments. 

 

The fact that they mockingly posted letters on their web site from people asking them to take down their copyrighted materials shows that they knew exactly what they were doing.

Fuck them. 

 

"The Pirate Bay" says to me that they knew what they were doing. If they wanted to make it low key they should have called it "Ubershare" or "ByteSwap" or something. 

you've lost me.....