This is my attempt to clarify my thoughts.

Here is Stratton and co. discussing glory kills. It is clear that the use of this mechanic is not mandatory, but is strongly encouraged and reinforced though the games design. If we review the E3 gameplay footage we will see that health comes exclusively from enemy drops. There are no health pickups to be found throughout the levels.

Before panties get twisted let me say this: I believe this game will be fun. However, I have concerns that it won't be challenging enough due to health on demand.

It appears, from what we've seen, that glory kills are easy enough to execute that they could be exploited to keep ones health topped off. If it turns out that this is the case, this virtually eliminates the threat of death and lessens the overall challenge of the game. Some people feel that games that are not challenging enough are not as fun or rewarding as more challenging games. This is a valid opinion.

As I said earlier, it's too soon to tell. 

 

That's good news if that's the case. Do you have a source you can link me? 

Do you have a source you can link me?

czg is the source 

 

Why is this so shit?



{{SOURCE: GAMESPOT}} 

It's the font, isn't it 

If we review the E3 gameplay footage we will see that health comes exclusively from enemy drops. There are no health pickups to be found throughout the levels.

While I don't recall seeing health on the E3 footage, there were definitely regular armour and ammo pickups; since glory kills are also being touted as a means of topping up ammo, then it does seem that it's possible for glory kills and regular pickups to coexist - at least so far as ammo is concerned.

IMO it's quite a leap from "there were no health pickups in the footage shown" to "there are no health pickups at all": absence of evidence not being evidence of absence, and all that.

Another interesting thing I noted in the E3 footage is that not all glory kills trigger pickups - in fact the very first one you see seems not to. If so, that kinda negates the "health on-demand" aspect of them. 

No, it's giving an awesome demon "MILITARY EXPERIMENT #666" for a background. Why couldn't they just put Doom 2's flavor paragraph there instead? 

Apparently when a demon dies, they pick him up, dust him off, wire him some combat gear, and send him back into battle. No rest for the wicked, eh? You wish your missiles did what his can do.

vs.

BEEP BOOP MILITARY OPERATIVES BEEP BOOP CYBERNETIC AUGMENTATION CONSOLE USERS PLEASE BUY THIS GAME. 

Fuck I'll never even have the time to play this game and it's turned me into that one shmorky *spits over shoulder* comic. 

http://i.imgur.com/2Njrmnx.jpg 

Because FFS you can't be trusted to type with them, Killes and anyone else who is opining straight out of their clueless colons.

Nope, no chance of byuing that idea indeed : the player moves super flying ninja skateboard fast and you are invuln during the executions, so it is basically pick your pinata wherever in sight, dash faster than anything else around, and feast.

1. Isn't everyone moaning that the player moves too slow??

2. You might well be invulnerable during the executions but you might well then be surrounded by enemies and have given up and tactical advantage of your previous position.

3. Wtf is wrong with people not getting the mechanic of rewarding aggression?? WE've told you it's already worked well in games (even if I forget which ones), and no-one wants to give a convincing argument against the theory, let alone wait to see it in practise. You DOMES. 

You might well be invulnerable during the executions but you might well then be surrounded by enemies and have given up and tactical advantage of your previous position.

This.

Oh, and when the execution move is finished and you're no longer invulnerable - you're still surrounded. 

http://cdn.dftw.org/vault/img/2011/05/10/4dc92bc3c29e068473000f36/large_cimg1651.jpg 

IMO it's quite a leap from "there were no health pickups in the footage shown" to "there are no health pickups at all": absence of evidence not being evidence of absence, and all that.

I agree, this is why I've also been saying "it's too soon to tell". But, in light of the information we do have, I don't think my concern is unreasonable. Yes, it's conjecture, but this is a discussion about a game that has yet to be released so a majority of the discussion is just that anyway.

Another interesting thing I noted in the E3 footage is that not all glory kills trigger pickups - in fact the very first one you see seems not to. If so, that kinda negates the "health on-demand" aspect of them.

Yes, that is interesting. Possibly there wasn't a drop since the player was at 100? Anyway, I hope you're right. Any evidence that nullifies the health on demand theory is more than welcome in my book. 

Yes, that is interesting. Possibly there wasn't a drop since the player was at 100? Anyway, I hope you're right. Any evidence that nullifies the health on demand theory is more than welcome in my book.

I'm almso certain I'm right; I just rewatched and the third glory kill, which is the firsr of them with a drop, is just an ammo drop. No health from that one.

Watch from here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7g6BfvU6A8&feature=youtu.be&t=162 

Indeed, it looks like you're right. This is good, if health drops aren't a guarantee they can't be easily exploited. 

Seems slow...every kill is scripted it would seem. I want to spin in circles cutting everything around me, not hop from one scripted cutting sequence to the next. Also, the blood seems hard to see except for when up close. It's the same as though it's the new blood in the darkplaces engine, but glossier. 

Good to hear if its not guaranteed health drops.

But just to sqaure this with Shamb & mh - you guys having a laff right as to Tactical advantage / surrounded tradeoff ? Let me illustrate :
"Oh no I am surrounded and getting damaged now I pinata'd the fuck out of this imp....what do I do what do I do ?? OH I KNOW! -> PINATA AGAIN!!!!" >:D

To be clear - I love the speed and the idea of rewarding aggression. Rewards could be other than health and ammo though. 

 

You can't do this though, you've got to damage an enemy enough first so it goes into its stunned state. That's the only time you can do the glory kills.

On the other hand, with lesser enemies like zombies and imps, it is actually possible (and really satisfying and fun) to to go on a complete rampage in a crowd alternating shotgun blasts with executions.
That tactic falls apart if there is any open space for imps to run away though, or if there are larger monsters, but it's very satisfying if you can keep it going. 

To be honest, I've no idea where this notion that it's something you can just summon at will is coming from.

To summarize the mechanic:

You've got to wound an enemy sufficiently for it to be available.

You're not always guaranteed health (or anything at all, for that matter).

While you may be invulnerable while doing it, you're certainly not once done so you need to be careful about timing and placement.

Based on that it should be quite obvious that when you do manage to pull it off properly, when it works, it can be quite a reward, but there's often going to be other times when just sending in a few rockets is going to be the preferable approach.

As a mechanic it doesn't seem broken, or dumbed-down, or pandering to console kiddies, or any of those things.

IMO there are valid criticisms in that it's a very gamist mechanic, it breaks the fourth wall, it can affect one's sense of immersion in the game. There's a more interesting discussion to be had along those lines rather than trying to nitpick at the mechanics of it, methinks. 

"You've got to wound an enemy sufficiently for it to be available."

SO ... in a fast based, twitch shooter I need to be careful to hurt enemies - not too much, just enough - in an arena with bullets and rockets and explosions going off - in a game known for it's in-fighting and collateral damage - to put them into a stunned state so I can then close the gap and perform a fatality. To get extra health.

K. 

Wow it's almost as if the people at id are wildly incompetent and haven't given a single thought to anything like balancing and testing! If only they had know this they could have made adjustments to make sure this isn't a problem!