Hm, I would say the information and function is more important than the aesthetics.

It's no big deal if the "Levels" menu looks different; it's no less useful, and it's not like people are going to be staring at the menus for long periods of time. A menu isn't there for artistic value -- it's there for functionality, just as a way to get to the setting you want. 

Oh... AND it makes it even worse with your force-choosing what map to stick me on when I go to start a New Single-Player Game (oh how
I hate that feature).

I tested with FvF3 (a later version, not the version my server is based on) which contains custom menu graphics. If install the custom maps from FvF4 (which contains one called fvfstart.bsp) along with, say, the iikka, terra, and dopa maps, then your map-forcing feature (which I hate so, so much) decides to ALWAYS stick me on fvfstart rather than the default start.bsp when I use the default menu option to start a single-player game.

Furthermore, since there are custom menu graphics, the "Levels" menu is missing, so I cannot even use the menu to work around the feature (which I truly, truly hate) to start the standard start.bsp.

So, the "Levels" menu should always be there, even if it's ugly, but more importantly... (you can imagine me shouting this loudly to properly convey the hatred I have for this feature) THE DEFAULT MENU OPTION TO START A SINGLE-PLAYER GAME SHOULD *ALWAYS* START THE DEFAULT SINGLE-PLAYER GAME. heh.


I know, you probably spent time and effort coding this feature thinking it was a great idea, but it's just not. This is as bad as all the "toxic settings" you hate so much when some servers or mods force upon the user. This is just as bad as a mod containing an autoexec.cfg within a pak file that force-starts you on the same map every time despite what you, the user, want to do, because just like in the case of an autoexec in a pak file, it cannot be disabled in Mark V.

And no matter if I am wanting to run the dopa, terra, or iikka maps, I will get forced to start on the fvfstart map every time, because it is first alphabetically, so it's not like the feature is working well to begin with -- you can't read the mind of the user, and selecting a map alphabetically is no substitute. So just go back to the default function for the default menu, and if the user wants to do something non-default, the wonderful "Levels" menu lets him run whichever non-default mission he wants.

Well, assuming you don't hide the "Levels" menu because it doesn't match new menu graphics.... But as I said, I feel the functionality is far more important than the aesthetics. 

1) FVF running (-game fvf)
2) Single Player->New Game
3) fvfstart.bsp loads

99 of 100 people would call that perfect behavior ;-) 

IF U Have a starting map in your own gamedir then just call it start.bsp, like everyone since 1997 does it? ;) 

nvmd re-read gunter's post 

Select and rotate pitch and yaw by selecting a single pixel on the screen and dragging it.

Video

Initially was a bit frustrating, then the slightly rusty 3D math kicked back in. Have to imagine the frustum as a sphere.

Combining and project and modelview matrix, the center of any pixel on the screen has an exact "pitch" and "yaw".

There are shortcut cuts methods that wouldn't achieve pixel-level selection precision, but I wanted the real one. 

[ The above is what happens when you click submit instead of preview, typos galore :( ] 

heh. for me the key to that feature is the convenience of the list. renaming the graphics isn't the worst thing. I don't have as much passion about is as gunter. I'd just start from the command line if it was picking the wrong map regularly.

lots of stuff, ie the mapjams never even had a start map. not sure if "maps" works in any other engine but it would have saved me alt_tabbing at least. AD has mod folder selection from a menu but no maps.



the r_shadows 3 looks good, I would have never found it. 

>>AD has mod

should say DP 

recommended behaviour would be for mods to create startmap_sp/startmap_dm aliases that specifies exactly what to do, and for engines to invoke that instead of doing 'map start'.
that way you're not getting randomness...

if only more engines+mods used that...
more seriously though, what kind of weirdo actually uses the menus? :o
(especially if the console's maplist dump supports clicking) 

Stuff like DP dies on AD, down to 7fps. Other games, ie Q2, Q4 run much better at the same resolution with HD and extra effects cranked.

I've had the best luck with this engine and quakespasm spiked.

For instance ad_fuma... markv/dp = slowdown right at the start by the lift. markvDX9 = smooth.

I can see why that might happen - polygon counts are absolutely insane in this part of the map.

There are a combination of things going on here.

Insane polygon counts.

MarkV GL makes no attempt at draw call batching. That's going to mean that bigger more complex scenes will bog down more and more.

MarkV D3D9 takes those GL calls and batches them, so it can handle those scenes better. It's still transferring a LOT of data to the GPU every frame though.

Quake 1 map formats are working against you. There's actually not a whole lot visible in that start scene, but Quake 1 lacks the vis format enhancements that even Quake 2 had, so it's pulling in a LOT of hidden surfaces.

DarkPlaces + huge data set + bad vis format + bling is not a good combination.

Quake 2 doesn't have the bad vis format, so it's data set is smaller, so you can bling it without as much slowdown. Likewise more modern formats.

Putting your data into vertex buffers so that it's already on the GPU rather than needing to be transferred every frame helps a LOT with bigger data sets too.

It's like the Quake equivalent of death by a thousand cuts. 

"1) FVF running (-game fvf)
2) Single Player->New Game
3) fvfstart.bsp loads

99 of 100 people would call that perfect behavior"

Maybe, but I complain louder than those other 99 hypothetical people combined! :D

And the problem is that this same thing would happen no matter what mod you were running in "step 1." You'd get fvfstart.bsp no matter what mod, because it's first alphabetically....


Actually, in the FvF4 full version package, the mod is programmed to always start the fvfstart.bsp map when a player goes to start a new single-player game. Probably somewhere in the QuakeC it does that.... This is more like what Spike suggested. If the mod actually specifies a map to run, that's fine -- you give control of such things to a mod when you run a mod.


Though the automatic start map picking does not seem to occur when you are just running id1 Quake.... Why is that?

That actually seems backward, in a way....

I mean, if you're running a mod, the mod itself will usually contain some way of starting whatever map it want to start, if it doesn't want the default start map.

But if you're running just plain Quake and you have a single-player map pack installed... then you DON'T try to select the start map via the engine ?

Well, I don't understand the reasoning behind that, but I dislike the feature in either case.

I do love the "Levels" menu though. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EL8e2ujXe8g

;) 

My perspective most closely aligns with Spike's above about how mods should supply the information on the proper start map.

In a perfect world, that is the correct solution. 

Should always be the name of the start map imo

Anything else is asking for trouble. 

I can think of only one case where "start.bsp should always be the name of the start map" doesn't apply, and that's where a mod has only one map.

If a mod has only one map, and if a player selects "New Game", then IMO it's obvious what the player's intention is (hint: it's not to load ID1's start.bsp).

We're conditioned to think of "New Game" as being the equivalent of "map start" but if you step back and think: "is it really?" you might get a different perspective. 

" mods should supply the information on the proper start map. "

Agree. But if they don't do that, then the default start.bsp should be used instead of just guessing at it.


"Anything else is asking for trouble. "

Completely agree. I have been running into said trouble in actual practice -- though it's not that it can't be worked around but manually changing levels after I get dropped in the wrong map; it's that it is a major change from Quake's expected default behavior.


"If a mod has only one map, and if a player selects "New Game", then IMO it's obvious what the player's intention is (hint: it's not to load ID1's start.bsp). "

Actually, I don't agree with that, due to something I have done with FvF....

I have a modified DM6 map that contain an extra area which has nothing but a deadly lava pit with ledges above it, referred to as "The Purifier." When players vote to start a new Quest, I first transfer them to The Purifier area to kill them off before starting. The reason for this goes back to before I had the source code, and couldn't just strip everyone's weapons and frags from then without killing them... so the solution was just to kill them in a deadly trap before starting a new Quest game. At first, I had a separate small map for this, but later Orl modified DM6 to contain the Purifier in an extra area. This allows all players connected to the server to not be stuck in the console when The Purifier is called -- instead, if they don't have the modified map, they just feel like they are floating in space above DM6 while they die (the map on the server has the lava area, so the players can be in the DM6 map, inside that area, even if they can't see it). Of course, now I have the source code and could just strip the players' weapons and frags away before restarting Quest mode, but The Purifier became a traditional part of FvF, so it remains and is included with the FvF download files.

So, long story short (too late!), even though FvF has only one map included with it, it should never use that map by default when I go to start a new single-player game... because (before I had installed other maps in my FvF folder) I get put on DM6 when I try to start a new single-player game!

That is something that should never, never happen....

So yeah, default menu function for starting a new single-player game should start start.bsp EVERY time.

There are many different ways a mod can control that if it's not what is desired. 

Mark V's first priority is to play single player releases at Quaddicted and those released here. That first priority will never change.

FVF is not a traditional single player release like ARWOP, lunsp1, Travail, Marcher Fortress, Once Upon Atrocity, Grendel's Keep, Warpspasm, Soul of Evil, The Colony, GMSP1, Middle Evil, Rubicon 2, etc.

So yeah, maybe you have to add +map dopastart to the command line.

Oh the horror!

Mark V - #1 priority is Quaddicted/Func_Msgboard map releases. Feature is well suited to those.

But yeah, you can argue this until the cows come home and it will never change, because it is conflict with the stated goal of supporting single player releases conveniently. 

If I install ...

1) "game cda" - Castle of Dark Ages - Single Player new game should play the release.
2) "game lunsp1" - Single Player new game should play the release.
3) "game coagulatest" - Single Player new game should play the release.

I could name 200 more examples.

Now maybe someone like Gunter doesn't play single player releases off Quaddicted.

That's fine. But you have to remember that this engine is built to work in harmony with single player releases.

Arguing something in conflict with the #1 stated goal of the engine is just a waste of time. 

All that being said, what Spike said #1244 has been a low priority item to examine and possibly implement.

Not even close to the first time Spike has conversed about such a feature, it has come up at insideqc in the past on multiple occasions.

So possible future ability to specify what you think the start map should be for FVF via quake.rc or such doesn't seem like a stretch. 

No, I'm not familiar with all the single-player releases, but I have to ask, of those you mentioned, are they actual mods that should be installed to their own folder? Or are they just map packs?

Mods should have their own method of starting the correct map.

Map packs (like Terra and Iikka that I know of) are just installed to the maps folder, usually in id1.

In the former case, your map guessing isn't needed, and in the latter case it apparently doesn't function.

Let me check all the ones out you named, to be sure I thoroughly examine the issue.

CDS - pak file with progs included, so it's a mod, but it contains a readme with instructions: "3. Then load the map by typing 'map cda'."

lunsp1 - same, with instructions, "type 'map lunsp1'."

coagula - instructs user to use command line "-game coagula +map cogstart"

ARWOP - has instructions "Start a new game, and you will be taken to the start level of
'A Roman Wilderness of Pain'." So it's done the correct way, within the mod itself.

Travail - same, mod does it correctly/automatically.

Marcher Fortress - contains instructions to use command line "-game marcher +map marcher"

Once Upon Atrocity - starts the map in the included autoexec.cfg

Grendel's Keep - instructs to start map + mod by command line.

Warmspasm - looks like it does it automatically by the mod.

Soul of Evil - also done correctly by the mod.

The Colony - well, there is one "Colony" that is just a bsp with instructions to copy into id1\maps\ and run with "map" command, but there's also:

The Colony GMSP1 -- gives command line to start mod + map.

Middle Evil - instructs to use "map" command.

Rubicon2 -- apparently does it correctly in the mod.

So let me just tally this up.
Of the 14 potential things you mentioned (there were 2 Colonies):

5 of them do it the most correct way, within the mod itself, when you start a single-player game.

1 of them does it by an included autoexec.cfg, which is the second mostest correctest way to do it, I'd say.

1 of them is just a bsp which is placed in 1d1 with instructions to use "map" command (noted separately since the map-guessing feature doesn't work unless a mod is running).

3 of them have instructions to use "map" command.

4 of them provide a command line for the user to start the map + mod (oh, the horror of having to use the command line ;)


So, is the feature REALLY well-suited to these things?

In half the cases it either is completely unnecessary or won't work.

In the other 7 cases, if the user is following the instructions, it will never be used, (even though it would function correctly).

I'm sure there are many, many more map packs we could examine, and we could each look at the examples that either make it look good, or unnecessary, or bad.

But the feature is completely necessary in 0% of the cases, since all the map packs provide instructions for starting the map.

The feature is useless in 50% of the cases, because the mods either do it correctly already, or the feature doesn't work for maps in id1.

The feature is actually bad in some cases, such as ones I have mentioned....

So you've got a feature that's 0% necessary and only 50% useful, while sometimes actually being detrimental....

It's just not an overall good feature, even for the intended purpose of single-player maps.

Do I expect you to remove the feature? No -- I can tell you love it as your special child which you put time and effort and thought into creating ;) But I'm sorry, even though you love it, your special child is a tard XD

Even the people who aren't complaining as much as I am have said that start.bsp should always be the default (with mh's note that this may not necessarily be the case if there is only one map).

Me? I'm a Default Purist. I still am bothered that your pitch settings are off by .17 from default Quake :D

But this -- changing a cardinal menu function? That's so much worse to me....

But no, I don't expect you will remove it.

What I ask is please, please, PLEASE for the love of cake give me the option to disable it! A console variable, a menu setting, heck, a command-line option, ANYTHING so that I can have my Quake and eat it too! Er, I mean, so that I can have my Quake default functionality restored to it's proper functioning like it did back in 1996!


Let me just quote you the words of a wise man, please consider them carefully ;)

"Mod authors almost never intentionally did wrong things, they only sought to provide a good user experience for their mod.

Nonetheless, there are toxic quake.rc and autoexec.cfg files out there.

And playing single player release with the player in control of his settings is #1 for Mark V."

I know you didn't intentionally do the wrong thing, but this setting is toxic to me, and you have taken away my control to even disable it.... ;) 

I would definitely count all instances where the user is instructed to use the "map" command as instances where automatically launching the map is desirable/necessary. Mark V is designed for a plug-and-play experience - you aren't supposed to have to leave the game/engine to read readme files, just like you don't have to with the Quake Injector. 

Don't know. I'm not going to be doing more engine coding until (probably) the spring, except anything I decide to do as a leisure activity or experiment for my own satisfaction.

I won't be making any kind of decisions right now. Nor thinking about the "to do" list.

If I code something before then, it will be a leisure activity or solving a complex 3d math puzzle or something.

Wallclimbing mod

Found the old pubdm mod pretty much written by R00k.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFtK36d4tpc 

I'd personally discount those that give instructions. People don't read readmes. Never have, never will, you can keep your credit card details in a file called "readme", perfectly safe.

Discount a mod that provides an autoexec. That's the LEAST acceptable method to me (of those you list, there are worse). The mod author is making a statement here: Their preferred settings are more important than mine. That kind of thinking can fuck off. I'm the player, the autoexec belongs to me.

So I make that 9 that are player-hostile (1 actively so) vs 5 that do the right thing. Almost two-thirds.

Now, I'm not saying that Baker's approach is the best. One useful purpose it has served is starting a discussion around this problem, because despite what you claim, it IS a problem. People have trouble getting the Quake executable into the right folder, so you cannot claim that installing and using a mod is an intuitive trouble-free experience for everyone.

Personally I'd love to see something built into the Quake Injector. Maybe something built around Spike's suggestion, or something else, so long as it can be standardized and adopted. 

What do you mean "built into the Quake Injector"? I thought that already handled loading maps without a startmap.