Fifth gave birth to our point. Thank you Fifth :) 

Here, I've fixed it for you lot:

So in Doom there is obviously an omnipotent god-like demon that is playing with you; he's the one responsible for masterminding things like all the extremely contrived and balanced arena-like combat challenges; the very convenient placement of power-ups that none of the other monsters seem bothered about hiding from you; and the way he often opens magic doors to allow you to continue when you kill a certain number of demons - to name but just a few examples.

So this omnipotent meta-demon - turns out he's also really impressed when you kill a monster in a gratuitous and grotesque up-close-and-personal way - it tickles him in just the right way - and he (maybe she?) rewards you with some random loot when you do this, because how the Hell (hehehe) is that any crazier than all the other silly ways he has challenged and rewarded you throughout the game?

You're welcome. We now return to our regularly scheduled programme... 

Yeah, but this metam demon would distribute heatlh rewards in the form of fetid gelatinous globs of floating blood you have to ingest to get the benefits of. And not fucking desktop icons. 

Enemies shouldn't drop health because otherwise there's no reason to explore.

I think Jneerz Janeerss... Willem mentioned that earlier on.

Its the same reason why I didn't like the flamer guy in Quoth - getting hit by him was trivial because he dropped a health pack.

As to realism or internal logic - who gives a fuck? The original Doom certainly didn't and was a great game for it.

The game play must rule all in order for it to be a good game.

'Why does X happen?'
'Because it makes the game more fun.'

If thats not the answer to that question then the game is either being made less fun, or having the amount of fun it contains diluted. Just by the inclusion of feature X. 

That was answered many posts ago - the player's helmet (ooh matron!) is doing a google-glass thingy to add graphical overlays on stuff and whatnot. 

"As to realism or internal logic"

I think there's a disconnect here for a lot of people. When we talk about internal consistency that doesn't necessarily imply realism. It means a rule set that the game adheres to that makes sense - in context of the game world. 

I lean more towards the view that ijed also shares with me - that gameplay fun should always take priority above in-universe "logic".

But even so, I think my post #1072 lays out a case for how this really isn't at odds with the other stuff that happens in Doom (going by classic Doom rules at least)

If it's weird that demons drop rockets or whatever, how is that any weirder than when you come across the same things in the environment but arranged neatly in the shape of a pentagram, or a circle or something? (ref: Doom 1, Doom 2) Who the fuck put them there? 

But if the game logic is clean and well constructed enough, anything that would otherwise seem odd just goes by without a second thought.

For example, in Doom's hanger level there was a string of armour helmet upgrades along one computer wall.

Nobody cared because the game's internal logic didn't. It's a game about running around really fast shooting demons from hell with shotguns and hitting them with chainsaws.

That nihilistic arcade adrenaline is a special thing that Doom tapped into.

And, as was mentioned earlier in the thread, the original game could be played as a type of asteroids clone if you just left the minimap turned on. This was discussed in that vectorpoem / Coelcanth blog post ages ago. 

 

OK 2 things :

1 : the drops kill exploration as said before. They also kill the perceived value of pick ups.
If they are automatically dished out by enemies - it just doesn't matter anymore - something hurts me, it also heals me, so I just don't care so much if the enemy might hurt me, he is much less threatening because he cancels out his threat.

Its different when you know there are only so many resources to be found and if you waste them by sucking your gonna run dry and die.

In truth I feel it is a bit of a veiled attempt at getting god damn fucking regenerating health in there. That you have to hide under cover 10 seconds or pick up an automatically and reliably dropped health pack is the same shit, just the latter is a faster implementation of it.

Still, BFG panic button and regenerating health = shit to make the game not upsetting to vocal bratty cunts that like their entertainment non challenging and spoon fed.

Admitted Doom 4 does not look that easy so lets say these are maybe concessions that had to be made to appease investors in the enterprise.
But that is what they are and not smart fun or otherwise positive ideas towards the betterment of the game.


2 : the helmet highlights stuff. OK, then please may it be the one causing this particular orb of floating blood to glow/pulsate indicating it is of value to the marine. And not a nondescript can of soda dropped from flesh and circuits. 

Having a meta explanation like that for development laziness makes do a little internal scream.

It's not asking a lot of the designers to add some logical context. If doom can do it 21 years ago then I don't see why they have to be lazy with development today.

Maybe the gameplay will make up for it... but I feel like I'm saying that a lot these days.

"the MP alpha was shit, maybe the singleplayer will make up for it"

"the design decisions are stupid, maybe the gameplay will make up for it" 

My point is that it's no less logical than the rest of the nonsensical stuff that formed the design of Doom 1 and 2.

My other point is that I personally don't give a flying fig that it's nonsensical, and that we really shouldn't have to justify every abstract game mechanic with an in-universe explanation... but a lot of you seem to think that we need to, and therefore I suggested (tongue-in-cheek) an explanation that is no less daft than the one you naturally have to invoke to explain all the other crazy stuff you saw in Doom 1 and 2 - if you really think it needs explaining, that is.

Doom 1 and 2 really does not have much internal consistency or logic. Very little of it makes sense. I don't understand why people are pretending that it does. The level design was stuffed to the brim with wierd one-off environmental cause/effect interactions that make no sense whatsoever. 

Anyway I think it's worth pointing out that I am aware that this new monster drop CRISIS has two components:

1) The argument that it makes no in-universe sense that monsters drop items on melee death. I have laid down a lot of words saying why I think this argument is utter bollocks

2) The argument that it's bad for gameplay that monsters drop items on melee kills, saying it cheapens things etc. That is actually a valid argument, but I will not join that argument because I have absolutely zero evidence right now that it's a bad thing. (Killes' argument on this is based around a lot of assumptions on how the rest of the game will play, but I'm going to reserve judgement on this until I actually play the game). 

"Doom 1 and 2 really does not have much internal consistency or logic."

I think you're wrong on this. Can you cite examples of where the game conflicts with itself? 

Maybe the meta demon works at Microsoft. 

"My point is that it's no less logical than the rest of the nonsensical stuff that formed the design of Doom 1 and 2. "

Huh? Shotgunners drop shells and bullets. Chaingunners drop bullets. The rest are pickups. You could have certain enemy types drop ammo that makes sense.

That's far more logical than the current implementation and also your suggestions.

Personally I think it's lazy and we shouldn't be so forgiving of it. If the game is fun most people will overlook it, but they shouldn't have to. 

Congrats guys you have ruined Doom4 for everyone who's read it, regardless of whether the game is good or not. 

 

That's the problem. 

At first it seemed to be a brainless remake, but now it's clear that id is trying to make a proper game out of it. 

What? Who really gives a fuck about some people think of a game before anyone has even played it? I doubt this thread will have any impact on people's experience with doom. 

I think you're wrong on this. Can you cite examples of where the game conflicts with itself?

The level design is full of completely abstract elements that behave in ways the player can't anticipate unless he presses the use key on the right thing, which just looks the same as another thing which does nothing. I'm not talking about secrets, I'm talking about elements that actually block player progression. Things like when the designer forgets that doors and platforms are supposed to look like doors and platforms, and expects the player to press "use" on all the crates until he finds that one crate that behaves like a platform, or that one bit of wall identical to all the other bits of wall. There's loads of places like this and they're not secrets - I think Doom 2 is the worst offender here. Often secrets are easier to find than the actual way forward. After a while it really doesn't bother me; I can appreciate the quirky old-school charm of it, but please don't pretend that Doom 1 / 2 were highly logical games with such a wonderfully consistent visual language.

Huh? Shotgunners drop shells and bullets. Chaingunners drop bullets. The rest are pickups. You could have certain enemy types drop ammo that makes sense.

Firstly, I thought it was only mentioned that the new Doom's demons would drop health and armour - I don't recall anyone saying they drop ammo unrelated to the monster. Secondly, and for the last fatherfucking time, I really don't care how daft it is that monsters drop health and armour. It's a game :) 

Regarding nonsensical stuff being okay in Doom2 and games back then, it was only okay back then because Doom2 was the benchmark.

The whole realism and logical stuff is important, because it helps your immersion into a game. id failed at immersion with Doom, but it didn't matter because it was just a fun as fuck game.

In the 20 years since then developers have realised that the more realistic a game, the more the player can put themselves into that role and be immersed into the game.

I don't want to see a big glowing windows icon in front of me - leave that for Sonic and other lame children's games. But the same goes for the rest of the game, shit has to make sense and be logical. I don't want to me be reminded that I'm just playing a video game.

Unless it's aiming to be a multiplayer game. Multiplayer gamers don't seem to care as much they just want shooting monotony. 

We'll agree to disagree. 

"id failed at immersion with Doom, but it didn't matter because it was just a fun as fuck game."

I seriously disagree with that. When I first played Doom, I was totally consumed and into the game world. The world melted away and all I saw was the level I was playing ... if that's not immersion, I don't know what is.