I would not expect mappers and programmers to keep churning out product to please me.

you to read Atlas Shrugged sometime. Noone has to map. 

Well, if quake was some octree based thing that supported big maps in a proper way, it'd be fine, but it's not.

czg07 btw, It's probably done in proper czg style and thus has good fps all along. Terra is a very good example of excellent maps with low system requirements. They don't take years to vis either.

The bsp and vis specs and algorithms haven't really changed since 1997 and you're advocating for using them for 2006 "modern maps"? Well, do port the doom 3 architechture to q1 then. There has to be a limit even for you somewhere?
Modular quake etc... well, if there would be a new renderer and new compile tools, then it'd be fine. There aren't. Except q3 format. Why not map for it?

Living under communism. I chuckle. Probably every other country but USA is deeply communist from someone's point of view. My country is as communist now as it was 20 years ago. It was an ad hominem attack anyway.


The point here is we're actually arguing what is sensible and prudent, approrpriate and moderate. Aristoteles kinda things, it's a hard problem everywhere.
I say r_speeds below 3000, (and often it'd be good if maps stayed below 1000, especially if the rooms are small and undetailed) what's your number?

It's maybe visionary but it's half lazy too to put lots of complex geometry in open areas.

The original inspiration to talking relates to somehow seeing "classic modern maps" reviewed and seeing terra, adamantine cruelty and egypt on the same page and thinking how much easier it was to do egypt than the others since it doesn't care about r_speeds that much, so I thought it must be noted explicitly.

I laud mappers making small r_speeds maps! 

Marcher was cool and it was playable with my system, it somewhat lagged in some places. It was a concept map and the concept really could not have been done in any other way. (It was way faster in fitz than in aguirre btw!)
Headthump, I see that your project from qexpo really pushes some boundaries. I wish it well and hope it vises in finite time. Maybe if it was in some other engine, such problems wouldn't exist.

But it really pains me seeing good-quality maps but nothing huge, and them having huge r speeds mostly because of lack of caring. Maps that needn't necessarily have huge r speeds but they still have. 

that would mean an intention of insult. The circumstances of one's birth and place are purely accidental. I ask because I really would like to know what drives you to make rather authoritarian pronouncements on how other people should create content.

Why would you feel that it is your edict from on high that r_speeds should be in the 3000 range? Because that feels 'right' on your machine? Nomatter if that was the common recommendation in tutorials from 1999 but doesn't even come close to the capacity of the average machine today? There is a presumptiousness here that I am curious to understand. 

it is higher than 3000, but I have only -fast vised it. An earlier version compiled in 8+ hours but the change from that version is substantial. I got the portal number down to around 22,000+ after they were 31,000 plus so the performance should increase on the next build. Though, I have no problems running around in it, I aim to make it somewhat efficient.

I get this message, MAX_MAP_VISIBILATY exceeded when I attempt to compile it in the Quake 3 Arena format, but AquiRe's and Tyrann's tools compile it without any problems. Undoubtedly, it will take some time fully vis when I am ready to do it. 

I do agree somehow with bambuz that maps should be playable in normal Quake option.
I had the abandon pak first released and it played well in normal quake and the maps were not bigger than a floppy.

Then I took as advice to recompile them again with new compilers and updated quark, and I had a lot of work getting them leak free.
Great to see them in Fitzquake, but I wasn't able anymore to play them in normal quake because of the grey fall outs.

I am a pacifist, but I can't see the relation with mapping. I have a P3 1300 logitec-gForce. 

Then I took as advice to recompile them again with new compilers and updated quark, and I had a lot of work getting them leak free.
Great to see them in Fitzquake, but I wasn't able anymore to play them in normal quake because of the grey fall outs.

this paragraph makes no sense to me. surely recompiling maps in order to get rid of leaks (and therefore make it visable) would reduce (if not totally remove) grey flash in winquake? if anything, you should have gotten grey flash in winquake before you recompiled and fixed it.

did i miss something? 

There is a difference between lazy+inefficient mapping (made easier by better computing power), versus purposely designing complex maps made for contemporary computer systems. The computational expense of the former leads maps to get bad reviews and might crash your pc, while the latter helps the game evolve.

Maybe. 

 

Here's to evolution. 

Tyrann updated his site:

Just a quick update. I was going to put up a booth at QExpo, but I just don't have the energy right now. Anyway, just to get this out there, here is version 0.1 of tyr-utils (and source). This packages together my light and vis utils, as well as bspinfo and the beginnings of a bsputil tool. The version of tyrlite included is unchanged from version 0.99b, but the version of vis has a few tricks added to reduce compile times. I'll update the utils page later to reflect this new packaging. Qbsp will be added later, once I get a clean GPL version done (the TreeQBSP source isn't GPL compatible as far as I can tell, and I haven't been able to contact the author to get it changed).
http://disenchant.net/ 

1)Dont touch communism, or I'm calling Vondur!

2) Bamb, spare ~100$ on a new mobo+sempron 3000+ CPU. Its time to upgrade. Aslo q3 maps in DP will prolly run even slower on your outdated sys 

1) HT, did you make the detailed spire tops as entities/models/whattheyare so that they are not included in vis? In quake1 you can't do that, because then they wouldn't be lighted properly. And thus they have to be in the bsp and fuck up the map. Or well, modern computers can handle the map even when it's fucked up, but that's not beautiful imo. But in more modern engines they can be excluded from bsp splits and vis calcs. That's one point I'm trying to make, quake was not designed for that, while many engines are. You have only the func_wall that's not going far enough.

2) Upgrading my pc is pretty low in the priority list. I hope we'll see it someday though. :)

3) r speeds 3500 was high even in 1999. My computer is about 2000-2001 mid-range.

Making "modern" maps for q1 is a bit like putting a jet engine to a bicycle. Yes, well, it can be done, but we already have motorbikes, cars and aeroplanes which do the job better. It's a curiosity allright. But I recognize you digress and we can just say, "ok, we disagree but we can live with that", I'm fine if we stop this particular part of discussion here. The tech part is interesting though. 

Q1 scales badly, but it does scale. Even if it takes 10x more CPU to run 5x more polys (numbers out of the blue)
So the only problem there is - it will run slow on old hardware. The question is - should mappers care about the minority with old hardware and limit themselves to low detailed maps and not use the advantage of todays processor's power.
Im not talking about shoddy mapping (no vis optimisation etc) 

In quake1 you can't do that, because then they wouldn't be lighted properly.

That is what negative lighting is for. Where a func_wall torch holder doesn't cast a shadow beneath, you put a negative light set to an info_null to create a shadow cone underneath. You can also place a simpler shape inside of a func_wall to do the actual casting.

If you read my site note, it is very well likely(I'm gauging from your speedmaps)that I have spent more time on this one map in one form or another than you have mapped in your entirety, so why are lecturing me? 

it's just a hack. You can't listen very well, can you. I'll stop this discussion here. 

apparently it's being made by someone else now:

http://nintendo.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://screen7.adventuredevelopers.com/byzantine.htm

:/ 

n quake1 you can't do that, because then they wouldn't be lighted properly. And thus they have to be in the bsp and fuck up the map

You present as an insurmountable problem something that is easily solved by a number of ways that you were obviously not aware of but mappers have successfully used to make pretty maps for years. You can call it a hack but you are just trying to save yourself from a little embarrassment.

You'll be much better off if you stop trying to make yourself out to be an expert in all things Quake and listened to people who have actual experience testing the engine(s) with a few thousand maps of their own.

I'm not angry with you, I don't dislike you, but that is my honest opinion without the sugar on top. 

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/gijoe-belch.html 

 

I'm reading through this thread and.... lol

http://www.celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=596 

i won't give eric ebaum my traffic and nor should anyone. he's already a filthy rich criminal scumbag, and visiting his site only encourages his stealing. 

site crashed firefox. beware (ebaums) 

i think i'm missing something...

anyway, i thought it was funny. *shrug* :P 

ebaum's world is a site that just rips off content from everywhere else on the net. I think there was something between him and the SA guy because Ebaum kept taking content from the SA forums and using it...

er, read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebaum

scroll down to the section entitled "controversy".