 News | Forum | People | FAQ | Links | Search | Register |
Log in |
|
|
Found that already, thanks for description though. Must have missed the button in Silver Key Room during my first attempt to beat your level. The underground complex near the end (Arena area as you call it) is brilliant and tough to survive, now I know I HAVE TO save my plasma ammo clips. It was fun to empty your level :). I like the way Quoth monsters were included. Plus you got one bonus point from me for the titlename.
RickyT23 dont be mad with me ;) is just my opinion... maby i�m a fucking noob... but i think you use to many heavy monsters that slow the gameplay a lot!!! i use to do that also... but in brushwork i�m miles from you... keep it up! one of these days i might finish on hard... but honestly i get borred after a wile :(
I played it today and it's really impressive and I enjoyed it a lot, though it was a bit hard on skill2 (I died several times). A lot better than sick base.
I finished on Hard skill and this is a meaty romp. It's a struggle for the first fifth or so and then feels more balanced as weapons are gathered and supplies appear in greater supply.
This huge map really feels like Quake 2 and not SPQ1 in looks and gameplay. That's good BTW. Coloured lights are appropriate and the map looks good with a unique style. It's quality. I only thought the one lava tex deep below was ugly and I spotted a few minor misalignments but nothing to detract from enjoying this sprawling - multi-chaptered level. There were some cool light FX near the underground generator. The caves were well built too. I found all 6 secrets on my own but about 4 were found after I cleared the map - very nice variety and all were fair and satisfying to find in such a big map. Nice map - hoping to play more. Finally got around to playing this properly in Quoth. Skill 2, knew the map layout, and had got 1/2 way through on Quoth previously.
Pretty tough map all the way I found. Not unbalanced but just tough. Got me thinking about gameplay a bit, because sometimes it felt like it was straying from the realms of fun into the realms of gruelling. Like Warpspasm it has sodding loads of monsters, although there's never too much at any one point. The sheer numbers might be part of the issue, it's a lot of gameplay to get through in one go. I did have issues with ammo (given I knew what was coming up, also knew the Quad and nail runs, and am fairly cautious, I think it might be a fair point...). Just felt - even towards the end - that I often got too much into the red, especially in the weaker ammos. Which never feels that encouraging. Partly I think this is due to the number of "ammo-sink" Quoth monsters (rocketeers - quite a few shells for little reward; grenade enforcers - need to take em down from a distance; drones - suck up a LOT of ammo with their dodging; vorelings - easy to waste stuff on). Thing is, in a map this size, when you end up getting the more hardcore weapons (SNG, RL, anything cells), chucking in more ammo in general can make it too easy due to the ease of use of heavy weapons. Although in this map, I was often using plasma because I'd run out of shells!! So I thought of two options that would have helped the ammo situation: Firstly have a few more "easier" secrets with just standard supplies in. Thus allowing a struggling player to stop, work back and hopefully find something to help out, but also allowing others to blast through. Secondly have additional "innappropriate" ammo supplies next to some combats. For example, throw in some rockets near a load of grunts - the player might be tempted to make that combat easier but will lose the ammo drops. Or shells next to Vores, giving the choice of a harder combat or an easier one. Hmmm I'm not explaining it so well. I guess I'm thinking of a situation where there is more ammo around, but it's not just shells (useful to bulk supplies without making things too easy, but boring!!), but nor is it so the player can rely on the more powerful weapons... BTW, it was a good map. Impressive all round. And great having the underground bit in, well themed. I think some areas could do with more details though, to match the rest. Quoth monsters in general are tougher health-wise than the standards, the only exception being Drole - Shambler.
It's the sort of thing that couldn't be modified (in Quoth2, say) because it'd unbalance too many existing maps. But consider the Dog compared to the Voreling and the fact that the Voreling has its additional hiding on the ceiling behavior. They're both fun to kill but if you'd never played the game before and came up against one and then the other the difference in balance would be much more obvious than to a veteran Quaker. You make a very inciteful point (<=if that aint how you spell "inciteful" I give up!). It is hard for me to judge how a player is going to react to a map when playing it for the first time!! I mean christ - the first time a I played The Bile Plant, I died repeatedly, and that was on normal skill!!! I still enjoyed the map though, and progressing through is was still rewarding, due to the fantastic exploration factor of such a well spread out map!
Some of my testing was done by Sielwolf, who still claimed the map was too easy, and also too much combat always coming from the front, which is why I put some nasty ambushes in... That guy is REALLY good at Quake. He sent me a couple of demos for the Sickbase, both NH, one from the original 'cut' and one from the 'current' version, and to be frank, the guy's a FUCKING MACHINE!!! Watching the demos made me feel SICK!!! He told me not to post them on func... :-( I still have them tho ;-) Anyway, what Im saying is that guys like that - I didnt want to miss them out! I tried to cater for all tastes. Skill 2/3 on my last two maps (it would seem) are for the CRACK-SHOT ADVANCED GAMERS amongst us!! Atleast I can do it on NIGHTMARE, which is more than could be said for anyone else it would seem :( If you ever play on skill 1, you would notice less of the Quoth human enemies, and more enforcers and grunts instead. Also a lower overall monster count! It still seems quite hard though! I dunno... I do want people to have FUN! I am also very wary of making it too easy, just read the posts for Deja Vu, and you'll see why!! With this map I tried to make sure that there was a fair space to maneouvre atleast!! I feel if I made it a bit easier, I would have gotten more demos to watch! As for the point about the details in the map being more in some areas and less in others - well I could have put more details in, but it wouldnt have run in Fitzquake - yes, sorry guys but this level is RIGHT ON a few engine limits, literally two more Marksurfaces and I would be over the limit of 30000-odd!!! I already used all of my precache models too, so using any more func_walls was out of the question! Doh! Played this on S2 and while it was pretty difficult (I died maybe twice) I didn't have any bigger problems with ammo. However, due to some strange bug I was suddenly unable to switch to Plasma (using "next weapon"). So I had to run through some 20-30 enemies without killing any before walking through the GK door where I was able to find some ammo. After this, I was able to choose Plasma again. Strange.
Yeah it is a difficult balancing act:
Anyway, what Im saying is that guys like that - I didnt want to miss them out! I tried to cater for all tastes. Skill 2/3 on my last two maps (it would seem) are for the CRACK-SHOT ADVANCED GAMERS amongst us!! This is the problem, as Quake goes on, the general skill level of Quakers goes up but also, I think, gets stretched. There are still people who play on Easy, I think, and definitely people who play on Normal. As well as people who play on Hard and Nightmare (Nightmare is a fucking duff skill anyway though isn't it). Catering too all tastes, not easy. Compared to maps throughout Quake history, one needs to very gradually increase the skill level, but maintain enough expanse of skill settings to be accessible to almost all players. But then there's only 3 real skills. It's like: Original Quake skill - nu skill skill 0 - n/a 1 - n/a 2 - 0 n/a - 1 n/a - 2 Basically playing original Id maps on Hard is the equivalent of most modern maps on Easy, maybe. Or maybe there is only one step difference, but there definitely is a difference and so there should be due to that skill increase and thus player demands. The problem being, there simply aren't enough higher skills for people like Siewolf etc. So the skills get compressed into each other. Nu-skill 2 might cover old-skill 3 & 4 (ignoring nightmare). Which is a fairly broad band, bit too easy for Sielwolf, a bit too hard for Shambler. I play on Skill 2 in general and I'd say 80-90% of the time that works and is just right (or like Kell's map a bit easy). Sometimes it's a bit too hard, but then if I was on skill 1, it would be a bit too easy for most of the time. This is partly why I'm thinking of solutions that enable players to deal with the tougher skill without making it too easy for hardcore players. Plenty of weaker ammo (allowing players to resort to a cautious grind approach) is the obvious option but that's only shells really. Maybe extra GA too. I think more low-reward secrets are also a good idea, hardcore players don't need to put the effort into finding them, but lesser players can hunt them down if needed. Or someone needs code skills 3(not Nightmare),4,5 in... Some good points. Spreading the difficulty range seems to be more inclusive, but might end up with gaps in between difficulty levels so it's not a cure-all.
For quake, maybe we could implement some sort of progs.dat feature that used fractional skill levels to add additional balance. Like, if you play on skill 1.5, it will use skill 1 spawns, but degrade the health packs by 10% or increase monster attack damage by 10% or something. Also, some additional ideas are discussed in the "difficulty tuning" thread: http://www.celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=42640 Hehe - at the end of the day, listening to peoples impressions and opinions of my maps makes me think about how I can improve them.
Deja Vu - made me think about basic scale and gameplay. People said it was OK, but a bit too easy and no themed/detailed enough, but fun nevertheless... Sickbase - Too hard man!! Detailed enough (or better scale/detail/theme than DejaVu but gameplay was flawed by being too difficult. Also engine limits were disregarded... TheHand - Much better, maybe a bit too hard (but not impossible), people obviously ENJOYED it, but now I know that making a level tough doesnt necessarily mean that gameplay is GOOD. Next level - I will try and follow the formula for FUN a bit more closely. I like the idea of having more balanced gameplay with spread-out high end enemies in a controlled manner, making sure fights are fair... Im sticking to Base maps tho!! I have something on the go with doom3 tex, diakatana wad "#1" and IKbase!! "IKDoom"? :-) It's all good! Welcome aboard. You're making a strong mark on the mapping scene already both with the vision and impressiveness of your maps, and your general improvements in quality over a few maps. Progress...
I do think The Hand had quite a lot of good gameplay moments. A few I can remember: Mixed base enemies together - makes you think about what you use, i.e. gotta take down rocketeers but powerful ammo will gib them or be wasted on nearby lighter enemy. Vores + vorelings - well themed and requires a bit of tactics. Some monsters (Fiends?) appearing behind you - as long as it's not overused (which it wasn't), good for keeping players on their toes. Corridors with monsters appearing on both sides - forces fast decisions and fast shooting. Quad / nail runs - rockage! And these ones were good - I think what made them good is you could get a real good run first attempt with the powerups. I think it can be good to have a little bit of health or something before the start of run just in case. Giving the player powerful weapons but having proper powerful enemy to soak them up - thinking of the underground lab thing here, it's good to through in a bit of that too... Mmmmm Quake :). Agree with /\ that.
You're doing alot in a short time and it's nice to see in this old game that's still better than 90% of the new crap. But I'd say that spreading the difficulty isn't so important, it's not too much to expect a player to change their playing style in order to play your map, as long as it's fun to play. RickyT23 gameplay in "The hand" map is not that hard... the major problem is that have to many strong monsters... and make gameplay in my opinion bored.
next time this addivice!!! lots of easy monsters and vores = lots of fun :) :p kill then bastards with vore balls and stuff like that :) please keep it up you are becoming a great mapper real fast. I'd like to be a little late to say, good map. I enjoyed the quad run where you move up the stairs, that was pure fun. The map was a bit long for my taste, but that's just my taste. I thought some rooms and corridors were a bit bigger than they needed to be. The map ran noticeably slower than other "spacious" maps (breakfast for example.)
I too look forward to your next map. ..considering you're a relatively new mapper (at least i'm assuming? i don't recall playing anything by you before the few that have been put up on here..)
i thought the balance was spot on (skill 1) - gradually escalated from easy to hard, never got unfair yet always kept me on my toes, and offered plenty of variety in combat, with the quoth monsters used to good effect. i died twice; once on the first gug encounter (which was avoidable with better tactics the 2nd time round) and once due to a particularly unfortunate quad-run/RL/polyp combination (evile weapon placement right there.. had to admire it though) my only gripe was the button that releases the bridge to the gold key area - i ended up backtracking through the whole map twice before giving up and quitting, and it wasn't until reading the comments on here that i even acknowledged it. it's easy to see, but i'd thought i'd already pressed it; it wasn't obvious that it was unpressed, nor that it operated the bridge (which was a few rooms away) but yeah, that aside i had a hell of a blast playing this. in addition, the brushwork was great; detailing mostly solid (few bland areas but nothing ugly) and the lighting was nicely executed. i'm astounded it took you only 8 weeks to come up with such a large-scale & well-rounded map. excellent stuff mr, look forward to your future projects =) First play demo here:
http://shub-hub.com/files/demos_netquake/thehand_mwh_1stplay.dz I die after 20 odd minutes, 164/236 3/6. Lots of fun :)
|
|
| You must be logged in to post in this thread. |
|
| Website copyright © 2002-2024 John Fitzgibbons. All posts are copyright their respective authors. |