|Posted by Ammobox on 2019/10/26 06:56:20|
|Inspired by Copper Quake, I decided to make my own "Vanilla+" mod for the game. I was very discontent with how the Shotgun was the "jack of all trades" weapon for nearly every situation, and so, I decided to nerf how much ammo you can get from ammo boxes, big or small.
By nerfing the Shotguns, I believe that the Nailgun will shine even more when facing groups of enemies. Now, small ammo boxes give 50 nails instead of 25, and big ammo boxes give 100 nails instead of 50. The Nailgun's base damage has also been increased from 9 to 12. To put this into perspective, I believe it takes 3 nails to put down a Soldier instead of the usual 4. To wrap this all up, Soldiers' backpacks drop both 5 shells and 10 nails.
Hopefully this will solve the much troubled Nailgun, as I've always felt the normal Nailgun was terrible because of its low damage and the fact that I never had enough ammo for it. Now, you should always have full ammo for both your Shotgun and your Nailgun for every situation you might encounter.
Please let me know what you think and do not hesitate in posting your suggestions for future updates about other weapons or items.
Mappers have already solved this by putting less shells and more nails into their maps, if they choose??
I appreciate the effort, but I don't find this useful.
On one hand, let mapmakers solve the balance way THEY see fit, like Shambler said.
On the other hand, if it is compatible with original quake maps, uh, well, maybe, if it is compatible with copper for example. If I'd want to replay quak, I'd do it with changes like in copper, proper balance and stuff, not just a couple of crate numbers tweak.
You mention nothing of the Super Nailgun, only Nailgun.
Am I right in thinking you've now made the NG do 12 dmg per nail but the SNG still only does 9 dmg per nail?
Because if so, uhhh.... yeah I can see some issues with this.
Also, what posts #1 and #2 said.
I was very discontent with how the Shotgun was the "jack of all trades" weapon for nearly every situation
Firstly, this is news to me.
Secondly, even if you do think this, you have done nothing to alter the behaviour of the shotgun, only the amount of ammo in maps, which is a bit of tepid way of going about it isn't it? You've just made it so people are forced to use one of the weakest weapons in the game less (oohh exciting!), instead of actually changing the valid use cases of the shotgun so people can still use it a lot, but in more restricted scenarios (which might actually be an interesting mod to do).
Firstly, this is news to me.
It has always been, but it depends on the player, and as most Quake players prefer to use the SSG for medium and long range instead due to the huge amount of ammunition around, which happens even more if there is more weapons available, that's why it is not easy to see on videos and demos.
About the rest, i mostly agree with the others. Your mod does not change much, reducing ammo won´t help in that situation, and part of what it changes it is something mappers can do themselves easily. You are better changing the behaviour of the weapons (wider spread maybe) than ammo.
The low DPS of the shotgun for me invalidates it as a "jack of all trades" weapon. Plink-plinking at a single, isolated shambler for half an hour from safe cover until he goes down is all very well but if you actually consider a properly designed combat encounter with multiple threats and motivation for the player to take them down fairly quickly, you'll notice there is a reason the other weapons were added to the game.
Cocerello's suggestion to actually alter the shotgun behaviour with a wider spread is a decent example of what I was getting at before.
If you look at the actual changes Copper made, you'll also see that it's about behaviour changes.
you are also using the some extreme examples, and second, being a jack of all trades means also being master of none or few. There are also many combats with no cover at all were the SG shines a lot.
Quake's shotgun has lots of uses by itself, so much that it no longer resembles a shotgun, as it is more like a mix of a pistol, a stun gun, (it is the only weapon capable of achieving eternal stun on half the bestiary (it is not exactly constant stun but as it stuns and resets animations it ends up being almost the same)) and a sniper rifle.
It is also best weapon to deal with the lower third of the bestiary and sometimes it is even better than explosives for groups of those (stun by switching fire between them or make the closest interfere with the movement of the ones behind), and the safest against grunts. Finally it is the easiest to keep track of how many hits are needed (lowest probabilities of damage wasted due to missing (if not using a crosshair) or wasting time from overdamage and easier to know if it has been hit or not and if fully or not) to switch to the next lower tier target as soon as the last one needed shoot is shot (you can move without hesitation as you know its dead), meaning that its low DPS are not so low in reality.
In my case, due to the overflowing of ammunition in most custom maps, there is lots maps with no highest tier enemies were i use the SG 80% of the time, even if i am someone who switches weapons a lot. In base vanilla maps i almost never use SSG, NG or even SNG as it is more dangerous and i end up losing a lot more of health.
While i like it a lot it is the weapon that i think needs changes the most in SP (for DM is the RL). Only way i can think of is deleting it and adding a pistol (no spread) and limit the range. The one i said before would stop its sniper rifle use, but would still jack of all trades.
To be honest when all's said and done, I personally would never consider the single shotty as something in need of nerfing.
The mod that (imo) has put the most thought into balance - i.e. Copper - doesn't seem to think so either.
Most FPS games give the player a SG equivalent in the form of a "pistol" of some sort. Like the SG it's also a (slow, tedious) "sniper rifle". Most FPS games also know how to make combat scenarios that force the player to bring out the big, high DPS guns in order not to die.
The whole "I use the SG 80% of the time" thing is very map-specific and I would consider these custom maps as flawed anyway. I know there's a tendency for a lot of custom maps to make the player grind through everything with just the low end weapons, but that's a fault/choice of the mapper. Give the player more gun variety in the map, require the mapper to have to let rip with bigger guns to survive, and you soon find you're not really thinking about the SG except when you're mopping a couple of stragglers up during the quiet bits.
You can add the official maps to the talk. SG is as effective there as in most custom maps, and everything i said applies to them too.
Most FPS games give the player a SG equivalent in the form of a "pistol" of some sort.
But Quake's shotgun is a lot more than a pistol, and mostly works so well due to the big hitboxes vs the small spread. Not many games have so huge hitboxes for the smallest guys.
Also, your reasoning is based on more DPS makes a weapon more desired or suitable, which is quite a restrictive view while it fits Quake's philosophy well. Only a few situations or Quad runs change this situation with the SG substantially.
Your reasoning would work if the map is made around hard encounters all the time with higher tier enemies in closed spaces, or like in your maps against lots with lots of room to move.
I know there's a tendency for a lot of custom maps to make the player grind through everything with just the low end weapons,
I would like to know where this tendency is because i never have seen it and have played hundreds, and i say it as one of the very few mappers that do not give the bigger weapons outright and receive complains for it. Did you maybe saw it on speedmaps? That would make sense, but it is not a tendency.
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