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Map Jam 7 - Back To Base
The time has come once again.
The time to go forth and map, IDbase style. More specifically, Than�s APSP2, a loving ode to water, pipes and plumbers. Map Jamming is about creating maps of any size or detail level over several weeks, using a certain theme and/or texture set.

For this seventh of maps jams, the Quoth mod with be employed. Grab it here:

Any questions or comments, please post to this thread only.

Theme � Back to Base
Deadline � August 11th, 2016
Texture Wad - There are texture wads for this jam that include many theme related textures. It is not required to use these textures in your level, they are provided for inspiration and convenience only! Check this texture repository for more wads :

Compile Tools - It is recommended that you use EricW's updated Quake compiler suite as they add much new functionality to lighting and visibility. It even has surface lighting!

Download EricW's tools :

Download worldcraft / Jackhammer fgd for these tools> :

Quakespasm / Fitzquake. The usual suspects.

Theme reference images:

Download the Map Jam 7 zip:

Please post WIP shots of your maps. There�s nothing like a few constructive words to fuel one�s inspiration.

Lastly, a list of mappers streaming their mapping skills: (Ionous) (Daz)

If you want to be added to the stream list, just post below.
Thanks to Daz making the introduction video (which shall be forthcoming).
Hell Yeah Idbase 
Looking Forward 
To seeing all of the entries! 
Thanks, Custom Gamer! 
... for the heads up. I've been away for a while. Going map! 
Now I want to make something for this! 
Is there a def or ent anywhere? 
Glad To See People Interested 
Zwiffle: I talked to Preach about it, and it seems there is not. There might exist one for older versions. I'll see if I can dig it up later tonight. 
Base Style ?! 
..ugh It's the theme I like less :( 
Challenge yourself! 
Is it just me or "ugh" and "like less" do not belong in the same sentence? 
One Of My Favourite Styles 
to play in.
One of my least favourite to map with.
Looking forward to watching this progress, good luck to all. 
Sounds Fun! 
I started working on a map for this today. No idea if it's going to turn out any good or not though. 
The First Stone Has Been Cast 
Great to see, Pritchard. A nice start; I'm interested to see where you go from here.

Oh, and I'm going to start streaming in about 90 minutes or so. 
Nice Start Pritchard! 
First Day Of Mapping 
I can't wait to see what you guys come up with! Really looking forward to playing a bunch of new maps!

I'd join in but I'm kind of worn out ATM. Hey maybe if there's DLC in a few weeks I might participate. 
Is it cheating if I take an old unfinished map and complete it? 
Yes And No 
yes - because it's cheating
no - because we want as many maps as community can produce 
I don't think it's cheating. 
I Was Joking 
Do it man! 
Go ahead and use the old map. I wouldn't hesitate a second to dredge up an old map for use as a starting point.

Unfortunately I can't seem to generate any enthusiasm for making an idbase style map and apparently Quoth is not easy to map for with Netradiant. 
It's Cheating 
But nobody said cheating is not allowed. 
apparently Quoth is not easy to map for with Netradiant

What the bottom-badgering barnacles has the editor got to do with the ease of mapping for a particular quake mod? 
.def File 
What's the best .def file for Quake to build upon? 
I just started using JACK for the .fgd. It's been a while since I've used a Worldcraft-based editor, but it's kind of like riding a bicycle - I suck at riding bicycles. 
Day Two 
Qmaster: Sure, go for it. Better the fragment be used for something rather than gathering dust on your hard drive.

Zwiffle! Welcome back to the fold.

I myself will be mapping in about 2.5 hours or so.

And apparently I've been streaming for the past eight hours. No idea how; I had signed off OBS and closed my laptop. Hmmm. Oh well. 
"Wait, Why Am I Still Streaming?!" 
Epic, lol. Probably the most entertaining episode of all your streaming career! 
Short-time Quaker, First-time Mapper 
Hey y'all. Saw a post about this jam on tumblr and figured I'd give Quake mapping a shot. I've worked in Hammer before for a variety of Source engine games, but I'm entirely new to mapping for Quake. I've got a couple questions.

How much overlap is there between a modern (as if the source engine is anywhere near "modern") version of Hammer, and where should I go to get started mapping for Quake? 
Pure Gold 
negke : *** fell asleep
tdDaz : hmmm
tdDaz : man down? :D
negke : daz, you take over!
tdDaz : LOL imagine if I could remote into his pc and map a bunch while he sleeps. That would be so confusing when he woke up :D
tdDaz : Ionous
tdDaz : lol
negke : :D
tdDaz : what is that sound
skacky : is he still afk? Kappa
negke : maybe a clock, or the hdd?
tdDaz : skacky Residentsleeper
negke : or his death sounds
tdDaz : feck
skacky : lol even when he's not doing anything I get buffering
Grim_Fandang0 : yeah
skacky : also he's super late on the irc chat lol
negke : probably like me yesterday: the beers kept running through. then i'm like, let's sit down here for a minute. suddenly woke up and it's 2:30
tdDaz : I mean its nearly 4am there, he must be sleep
negke : those are some proper nostromo sounds
negke : kind of
skacky : the nostromo sounds are perfect to sleep to
tdDaz : ok lets break his viewers record while he isnt even alive, lol
negke : too bad he didn't leave the music on
skacky : they're also in deckard's apartment
negke : this is quite meta for a mapping stream
tdDaz : well what does his map look like?
negke : mp3 and chat. no editor
Grim_Fandang0 : I think he closed his laptop but it didn't went to hibernate mode
skacky :
WarrenMarshall : Zombie Ionous
skacky : there are currently 6 people here watching nothing
skacky : Kappa
WarrenMarshall : 7. 7!!
Grim_Fandang0 : :D
tdDaz : *** you im watching his clock tick
negke : the channel has never been this active
WarrenMarshall : I, for one, have never felt more alive.
skacky : I should go map but this is better
tdDaz : this is pre-mapping zen
WarrenMarshall : It's the suspense. What's that sound? When will he wake up? Is he ALIVE?! Oh god ...
negke : listening to the choking clock
tdDaz : the mind boggles
skacky : what if his hellhounds suddenly assume control
tdDaz : lol
WarrenMarshall : I fully expect the cat to start walking on the keyboard ... any moment now ...
negke : at least they would align the trim correctly
tdDaz : I haven't fallen asleep at my pc for years, I admire Ionous tenacity :)
Grim_Fandang0 : maybe Hawaii is under water? and he's rowing at his coach
skacky : haven't either daz
skacky : even during my crazy mapping streaks
tdDaz : yeah I just cant do it any more
WarrenMarshall : I generally go to bed when I get too tired to focus ... but that's just me ... I was raised in Canada, so ...
tdDaz : my biody just knows to press power button and shift to bed :D
WarrenMarshall : I CAN fall asleep playing video games on the couch tho. I wake up and my character is running into the corner and has been for at least 20 minutes ...
tdDaz : lol
WarrenMarshall : I want to watch something else but now I feel like I have too much invested to switch away.
tdDaz : rofl
tdDaz : he's gonna wake up ANY SECOND
skacky : haha
Grim_Fandang0 : It's in this state for 3h now, clock is only thing that change
Grim_Fandang0 : anyway longest afk stream I know was 11h, where guy was dead drunk, I hope Ionus will beat this record today Kappa
tdDaz : haha
tdDaz : was anyone here when he was last awake?
tdDaz : or did he just become unresponsive? :D
Delete Message
Grim_Fandang0 : I was, but he turned off and on stream few times, then posted something on Twitter afaik and then this
tdDaz : hmm
tdDaz : well this will be a fun story tomorrow :) laters
negke : several good quotes for the map's readme
Grim_Fandang0 : haha
DaveTheDaring : Hey.
Grim_Fandang0 : hey :D
Grim_Fandang0 : welcome to ResidentSleeper stream
DaveTheDaring : Thanks.
DaveTheDaring : Has he fallen asleep?
Grim_Fandang0 : no one knows
Grim_Fandang0 : lol
DaveTheDaring : How long has it been like this?
Grim_Fandang0 : like 5h
DaveTheDaring : Maybe he died and that sound I can hear is his dogs eating him? Prolly not though.
Grim_Fandang0 : or he's fapping for 5h
DaveTheDaring : Wow. That would be impressive.
WarrenMarshall : Thought I'd check back in ... still dead?
DaveTheDaring : Still dead.
DaveTheDaring : I might stream some Quake later by the way. 
Welcome Schnedwob 
Check out this beginner's guide Khreathor just posted:

Should answer most basic questions. 
You're A Saint, Ionous. 
I'll check back in here once I've cobbled something halfway map-like together. Wish me luck! 
Mos Def 
Here's a .def file for Quoth. I grabbed the version goldenboy posted a while back, and added all the missing entities I could find. I don't guarantee that every relevant field and spawnflag is there, but it should have all the entities and get you going if you keep referring to the tutorial. 
PS: Beta 
Should have mentioned that it hasn't been tested beyond making sure that Trenchbroom will load the file without an error. The fgd is the better supported option, and probably will continue to be in the future. Fans of the fgd may need to take the ball they've been given and run with it... 
Are we allowed to use custom texture sets as long as they follow the base setting? 
schnedwob: Good luck!

Preach: Thanks for the .def file. I had been meaning to dig out the old one, but very much forgot. This is far better.

Breezeep: Sure, follow wherever your muse takes you. 
I am convert .def to .ent
But I did not get a fully tested 
Base Set I'd Like To See Worked/ Expanded On 
I remember cybear, bear, whoever, made a few early speedmaps using a very small set of super degraded, mossy worn down idbase textures. I'd love to see a map in this style.
would work well as a "stranger things"kind of map, particularly if DIGS made it.
EG go through the first part in regular clean idbase textures, fighting base monsters etc. then enter a portal or something and fight through the same setting with the degraded textures (the upsidedown) fighting more eldritch monsters. 
I Can Only Remember One Such Texture 
Which set is this? 
Great Jam Choice Ionous. 
Base is a hard thing to make look good, i reckon, so a good challenge for people. Good luck everyone. 
It's That Time Again 
Starts in about an hour. Quake mapping and Doom Metal (I'm thinking some Ruins of Beverast).

Oh, and thanks Shambler. Sock suggested it. I was totally on board. 
Yayy Mapjam, Yayyy Base! 
Here's what I've got going on. Also got a lot of work coming up though, so I might have to trim back my ambitions to make the deadline! D: 
Looks great text fish! 
I Simply Don't Have The Time. 
I would love to jump in on this mapjam, but I am traveling for the next couple weeks. I will peep in to check out what other people are up to. 
Sweet! You nailed the lighting on the insides. And the way you cut those wall panels on the outsides look like the texture was made for it. Loving it.

As of me... blocking out like crazy. 
Looks Good, Text_Fish! 
Dat Yellowish Light 
Looks so warm I want to bathe in it. 
@ Text_Fish 
Nice brushwork/lighting.

p.s. add more cracks Daz likes cracks 
Looks very nice 
That outside section is the correct answer to the map jam :) 
A Fine Start 
Looking very good, Text_Fish. Keep at it!

Oh, and going to be mapping in about two hours or so. Probably starting off with some Shape of Despair. 
A very quality start. Keep at it! 
Crappy fullbright shot. Just wanted to see how the scale seemed in-game. Admittedly, better than I thought: 
The Time Comes Round Again 
Quake Mapping. Doom Metal (Mourning Beloveth). Starts in a hour. 
Have Modified Some Textures For My Current Map 
here they are:
some of the blue lights weren't available in yellow, and vice-versa.

so I fixed that. 
Thanks Shamblernaunt 
Some nice variations.

Oh, and I'm mapping again today. In about thirty minutes. Monolithe is on deck today. 
Thanks for the encouraging words everyone. Progress is going slow but but at least it's still going!

Ionous your streams have been great, I generally have them open on my second screen and try my best not to copy you. :P 
Blockout Progressing 
I've made the conscious decision to not start textures/detailed GEO until the basic layout is mostly complete, because I usually get bogged down in detail too early in a build. So while my progress shot isn't as pretty as TF & ionous', it's what I have 
I Think I'm Getting A Hang Of This! 
A couple ugly fullbright screens to show my bits of progress so far. For some reason I've been thinking a lot about the Oddworld games, and Rupture Farms specifically. 
I Like The Gore. 
Gorey Stuff 
I don't think I've seen this use of crates in a quake Base map 
Looks Great Everyone! 
Shamblers gotta have crates full of meat! 
Appreciate The Feedback! 
I'm going for sort of a slaughterhouse/meat processing facility thing. After all, a blood sacrifice works just as well whether or not the blood's pre-packaged. 
People Are Doing Stuff! 
Danrul: Hey, whatever method works for you. It's certainly a lot more disciplined than my process.

Schnedwob: Yeah, I'd definitely agree you're getting the hang of things. A fine start. 
Oh, And I'm Going To Start Mapping Soon

Brush-laying and Triptykon. 
My Progress So Far 
Roll Call 
Just a check to see who's out there, and at what point they're at. I'll start.

Um, half of one room finished? Maybe 20% done? Hopefully I can get back on track over the next two days. 
Map Progress... 
...Has been pretty slow. I have a heavy WIP outdoor area, as well as a half finished room and some other rooms I'm currently working on. I'll be going out for vacation this weekend, but I'm hoping to get this thing done in time (If I stop procrastinating). 
Haven't Touched The Editor Since Jam Start But... 
I have a 70% done map that I ran into some technical hurdles on. If I can force myself to remove some sections and shrink it up in places, then maybe I can release this behomoth by 8/11

I dunno, maybe 15-20% done with the layout? Certainly won't be as detailed as Ionous' map. 
I'm 10% Done 
I'll be lucky to get anything done this weekend because I'm contributing to a gov data hackathon thing. It's over 3 days :(

I have some fun ideas, but I think I will have to scale them back somewhat in order to meet the deadline. 
This is good stuff :) 
Literally nothing. As much as I enjoy playing on base maps, I find working with the assets quite fiddly and annoying at the moment. It's really put me off the whole project D:

Hopefully there'll be another map jam soon with a theme that better agrees with me. I love these sorts of things and I wish I had the gumption to participate.

Best of luck everyone! 
Wierd Glass Rendering Problems, How To Fix? 
I'm currently having some problems with my jam map, when I started placing clips*, skips*, glass* and make a glass like daz made it in that text map. But I'm having wierd rendering problems, it draws black lines/dots.

here is picture: 
looks like z-fighting. is the glass surface overlapping a floor surface? 
Maybe 10% finished. Hoping for 50% by the end of the weekend. 
Reply #77 
Yes, they're using the shared space/position, there is multiple brushes in one spot. One with the glass* special texture, one that has clipping texture and also skip.. that way it was made in daz's example map "" or maybe I'm just blind. Glass was func_wall also I remember correctly - just continued working other parts of the map meanwhile. 
Wasn't My Example Map 
(Reply #80) Transparent Textures? 
I apologize ~ map in a pack** wasn't really sure about the actual mapper.

Is there way to use transparent textures like in Arcade Dimension? By that I mean, I had immediately errors while compiling. I just placed them like I would normally do, but maybe it needs more setting up before it works? 
Reply To My Own Post 
Nevermind, I just needed place them correctly >_>; 
Got Some Nice Stuff Going On 
Breezeep: Good to hear. Keep at it!

Qmaster: Sure, give it a shot.

Zwiffle: Really liking what I'm seeing so far. Seems like you've done a lot of work.

Shamblernaunt: Good luck to you.

Pritchard: Sorry to hear. I hope your inspiration returns soon.

NewHouse: Ha, I've yet to try making the glass, though it looks like you solved the problem, so that's good. The example map was made by Than.

PrincentVice: Good to hear. 
Oh, And The Mapping Shall Soon Commence

Starts in about fifteen minutes. 
In-Game Pic 
very nice light 
Need Feedback 
I am beginner and I need feedback. Can you help me?
I made items and monsters layout (prototype).
Here is my jackhammer map link: 
Any Good Blue Base Textures? 

I'm working on blue themed base map, but haven't found actual blue/grey textures that much, is there any even? I have had searched through many wads, but there is just so many to remember. Maybe if someone has worked on the same theme or something? 
I might have seen a recolored idbase variety somewhere, but I'm not sure where or if at all. There are some blue base textures in Malice.wad, and of course Neil Manke's Starship. I really like the style of Anonca3, though it's more abstract than actual base. Quake2.wad should have some as well, possibly even Daikatana. 
Quake 2 has a few blue-ish/grey textures you may find interesting, for example used in lunsp1. There's also the map bsdm8 that has pretty kickass grey base textures. 
Let The Jamming Continue 

I went to check out the map file, but I can't seem to open it, as it crashes Jackhammer every single time. Is anyone else having this problem?

Skacky: Very classy indeed.

Seconding Skacky on LunSP1. Check it out here:

Oh, and I'm going to be mapping in about an hour: 
It opened fine for me in Jack 1.1, could it just be a version issue? 
Ah Yes... 
Now I remember why I stopped working on this base map o' mine. So. many. compile issues! It's like I need a .map utility to auto align vertices to nearest grid unit based on threshold value...and then of course verify that its still a valid brush and oh hey presto! turn it into! Now that would be nice.

Anyhow, off to rebuild offending angular brushwork. What lunatic put all these detailed hallways at 60 degree angles!?! Oh ya me. 
Just checked through the map. A few things you want to think about.

1. You have a lot of pillars that have the same texture as the wall. Try finding a different texture for the pillars.

2. The number of monsters seems to dwarf the amount of health and ammo. I would seal up the map, and try to play it through yourself. Is it too hard? Do you need to add more items? It's hard to exactly tell from the map file; you have to play through it yourself.

3. You have to place light entities in your map. Play around with different styles, find out what works the best for you.

4. I would put some of the monsters on paths, using path_corners. It randomized play slightly, and it helps to make the monsters seem active rather than just stationary bullet sponges.

Good luck. 
It's like I need a .map utility to auto align vertices to nearest grid unit based on threshold value...and then of course verify that its still a valid brush and oh hey presto! turn it into!
TrenchBroom 2 has that command pretty much.. Edit->Snap Vertices to Grid. 
Cathartic Rocks

There's a lot of level hidden in the walls and behind the dam, so don't take the greybox for a lack of progress.

Rocks are really a lot of fun to work on, really relaxing to start carving out what you want.

skacky: I know from twitter/IRC that pic is all set on 45' :O You're a nutter and I dont know how you do it.

Zwiffle: That's looking really cool man! The 2nd 7/28 shot really appeals to me, love the industrial rail/underpass vibes.

ionous: Lots of detail, really keen to see how nice your map is gonna look with lighting.

Keep up the good work guys. There's still plenty of time so don't sweat it, just keep plugging away. 
these rocks are sexy! 
Volunteer: Thanks man! Appreciate the positive feedback as this is my first serious Q1SP endeavour.

~ ~ ~ ~

Texturing and detailing has begun. This took some time, and is probably one of the more fiddly items, but I'm really pleased with how it has turned out. 
Keep It Going, Guys! 
So far I've mostly been enjoying myself slapping brushes together in TrenchBroom; no complete layout/flow in mind yet. I'm hoping it'll come together in the following days. This will be my first serious attempt at a Quake map since the nineties. 
cool stuff everyone! 
Really Glad To See Many New Faces! 

Wow, that's impressive.

The tower near the center in this old screenshot is rotated on a 2:3 slope and everything is on grid, but it's not nearly as complicated as a satellite dish and it still took me the better part of two mornings to get it right. 
Got A Late Start 
But a start nonetheless! Had the itch to make a Quake map, and with a pipes/plumbers theme I can't possibly resist this jam.

Two quick questions before I continue:

1.) Is there a J.A.C.K. version of the Quoth 2.2 FGD available anywhere? The included one works just fine, but doesn't have the models configured or (I think) the bounding boxes. There's a Jackhammer version from some years ago, but it's not for Quoth 2.2 and is missing a bunch of entities. I can work without it, don't get me wrong, I just want to make sure I'm not missing a file somewhere.

2.) Is it expected that players will by default be able to select the plasma gun? Or at least that they'll know they need to bind a key to "impulse 250"? I haven't played many Quoth maps, and my installation was using the Scourge of Armagon binds until I changed them. 9 and 0 were impulse 225 and 226, respectively. Can I safely use the plasma gun in my map and expect that people will know how to switch to it?

As for my progress, there hasn't been much. I hadn't realized there's a beta version of OBJ2MAP that supports UV coordinate conversion, available at in post #66. I also didn't realize the source code was available, and lost a few days trying to write my own version, only to hit a brick wall when it came to understanding the .map UV coordinate system. Affine texture mapping, or what have you? I'm in over my head. Incidentally, if anyone needs a Stanford PLY to MAP converter, I have the beginnings of a codebase. :)

Anyway, once I found the newer OBJ2MAP (and made a tiny tweak to the code to get Blender's flipped V coordinates working), I came up with a quick test map:

Dragged out a spline, bent and twisted it a bit, and even played around with some photogrammetry stuff I'd been poking at for the past few months. No guarantee any of it will make its way to a finished map, but goddamn it's fun. Hopefully things will flow now that the gears are greased.

If we're being honest, everybody's screenshots so far are more inspiring than I thought I'd ever see from base-themed maps, keep it up! Skacky, you are a madman. I love it. 
#103 OBJ-2-MAP 
ItEndsWithTens Do you work on a fork? I will release auto convexer soon and would like to add your fix too (as an option).
There is wip branch where you can find few smaller updates like MAP version toggle, progress info during MAP conversion etc. 
No, no proper fork just yet; I really don't know what I'm doing, to be perfectly honest. I just cloned your bitbucket repository and checked out the wip branch to play around and see if I could figure out the problem.

Unfortunately, as just barely shown by the second screenshot in the tweet I linked (see the bottom of the pipe, the dark trim with the rivets is stretched more than it should be), my "fix" isn't really a fix, more of a brute force workaround that doesn't solve the problem a hundred percent.

My changes were miniscule: in MAPCreation.cs, in TexCoordsForFace just after var V = verts; and var T = uvs; are defined, I added this:

foreach (var t in T)
��if (t.V > 0.0)
����t.V = -t.V;

It's naive, to say the least, and apparently isn't the right solution, but worked around the issue well enough for most of what I was doing. I think someone with some actual 3D graphics experience under their belt would need to dig into the problem before you incorporate any changes into your code.

I can put together a package of .obj files and textures for you to test with, if you'd like. 
Yes please, but I doubt I will fix it before Jam's deadline. 
Here you go:

More detailed info is in the included readme, and the zip includes all source files and exported results.

Don't worry about the deadline, I'm in no rush to get anything fixed for my project; if I use any of this stuff it'll be in very limited capacity.

Thanks for taking a look! 
Great Work Guys 
Nice to see even more people jumping aboard the jam. Keep at it.

I myself shall be mapping again in about an hour. 
1.) Is there a J.A.C.K. version of the Quoth 2.2 FGD available anywhere? The included one works just fine, but doesn't have the models configured or (I think) the bounding boxes. There's a Jackhammer version from some years ago, but it's not for Quoth 2.2 and is missing a bunch of entities. I can work without it, don't get me wrong, I just want to make sure I'm not missing a file somewhere.

There's a fgd with models packaged with TrenchBroom, might want to try and and see if it's also compatible with J.A.C.K. 
Piggybacking On The 'one Room' Today Deal

3858 brushes. I think I'm one third done. 
That Is One Sexy Turbine. 
All Great! 
This will be one heck of a jam! Great to see so many people participate.

I was dinking around with some brushes, I am not sure if I can make the deadline however. :O 
Headeache & Shoulder Pain + Map Freezes At Some Parts 
Doing great!

Except I have to redo 50% of the map again. There is some weird issues with one door and one big main hall area, and haven't been able to find the problem in map's geometry/brushes - so it's better to make everything from the very beginning. At least there is over 1 week still jamming time left.

Here is something to look at, if interested: 
Just a thought,

is that crashing area outside or close to the boundary limits? (-4096, 4096)

Looks good so far in any case! 
Yeah it was first*

I moved it so far from that negative position as possible and then it started working.. but even though I moved it that it doesn't freeze immediately, now it only freezes.. later when I move near the corner(maybe) but 100% at the time when shooting near the Main Hall door, it suddenly freezes when "the right" moment seems to match or something. I really don't know how it exactly triggers. First I thought it had to do something wierd complex floor geometry.. I simplyfied it as much I could, to look like the other areas I made earlier.. but it was already in good shape in my opinion.

But it is not really big deal making a same idea again* every time I recreate some of my ideas in this map, I have better sense of space required for movement/action that is going to happen. I want to make it feel better anyway* dealing with large scales really push me to look space more carefully.

It is wierd that area that had the most amount of little geometry worked flawlessly when testing earlier, and then the larger scale "very empty" space is giving me this much hard time. 
Bloughsburgh (again) 
Yes, it seems like not that area I mentioned, but the other part of the map goes a little bit over those boundaries. Should the skybox also be inside those limits (I assume yes). 
Just for ruling it out, confine everything so it is not going passed the boundaries. 
Unfortunately, it still didn't fixed issued with that one specific area* but I already started redoing it, so this time I'm trying to be more careful yet systematic.

Anyway ~ thanks for letting me know that important fact 
dude try to load this map to J.A.C.K. and prez Alt + P to find problems in geometry and textures. Maybe it will help and save your time? 
Thanks man~

Though I checked and there wasn't any errors, but that will be really helpful sooner or later.

I remade that area and time was not wasted, I'm sure about that* Sometimes it is just easier to remade than try to fix it. 
I know Quoth comes with a few skyboxes but can we supply our own as long as they are packaged with our individual submission?

In other news, I am going to participate in this jam either way! 
Yeah you can. 
Ah that's great, was really feeling some sort of late afternoon or evening setting for my map idea.

Thanks Skacky! 
There's a fgd with models packaged with TrenchBroom, might want to try and and see if it's also compatible with J.A.C.K.

Thank you! It's not the right format, unfortunately, but it did get me going in the right direction. The quoth2.fgd available on your site has some conflicts with Daz's FGD for ericw's tools, but I was able to combine them by hand and use the copy included with TrenchBroom as a guide for getting the models working.

If anyone else wants to take a look, feel free:

It's still very much in the early stages, and there are some Jack-specific issues I'll need to take up with Xaerox, but corrections and suggestions are welcome! 
Nice one Rob. Iirc, my ericw tools fgd doesn't have entries for the latest tool options ie phong shading and the radiosity lights, so you'll have to do that stuff by hand if you need to use them. 
About Lighting Techniques? 
Is there ways to make different kind of lighting other than just placing normal Lights everywhere on the map?
What is phong shading or radiosity lights? Is there way to light up some areas precisely and not just playing around with this normal/spotlights?

And if I give the Light target, some info_null somewhere, does the light value need to be very high to see actual spotlight? I haven't been able to get any results I see others are using. Is there some clear documents laying around somewhere I haven't realized before?

I earlier get that documentation about commands I can use to get some nice results about sunlight and so on. But the actual lighting in map, by using these entities, is there good examples of them somewhere? 
You need to be using the ericW compilers to get all the fancy stuff, here is the website and details about how all the new stuff works :

If you want example maps that use all this new stuff, it may be worth downloading map jam 6 as most of the map sources are included with the download and most use ericW tools. 
Lighting Docs.. 
Are some of these used for entities to get different lighting?

Yes, that's the one I already have used for my maps in development. I was just asking is there something I can do on those light entities individually more than just giving color, light and spotlight target? 
DaZ (More) 
LIGHT.html seems to have introduced Light entity keys.. "_surface_spotlight" "n" 
The main entity keys you should experiment with are "wait" and "delay" you can get some really nice effects with combinations.

if you have a look at the source map for jam6_daz you can see I use light ents with delay and wait for subtle fill lights in most areas. Also there is a single light used as a texture light so all lava in the map emits light. 
I found this light entity description. I hope it will help you understand how few things works: 
This image that I've posted before may help a bit. You could make a similar map to play around with and get a feel for how the different settings look. 
Yep necros's guide is a good resource.

I would avoid "_surface_spotlight", it's for a very niche use case (automatically creating spotlights on a given texture, which are lights with a cone-shaped illumination).

If you want to get some automation / spend less time manually placing lights, regular surface lights with the "_surface" key are a good choice, see the bottom screenshot on my page:

Also the "-bounce" feature can be used as a substitute for manually placing fill lights. Check the first screenshot on my page, the "without bounce" screenshot is the basic map lighting which is very dark, and adding bounce brightens it up. 
Thank You All Very Much** 
Big thanks for everyone*

I haven't even touched delay options yet, it seems to be main key here. That LightTest shows really well results, I can assume getting.

I use -bounce and bouncescale is 0.025... I chose that amount for a different map which I wanted to have very dark areas - I wanted to focus on Light entities to give light the way I can be more in control how everything should look.. I want to make this map feel also the same way.. dark but clear.

I hope it's not bad thing that I personally prefer more Episode 4 look/feel when it comes to lighting. But I do want to be able to give some contrast, and not making lights make walls look too bright/white or whatever color I choose to use in different places. Hopefully those settings will make light blend in a larger areas and not making the surface of brushes too bright or anything. 
Now Using Delay "2" For Test Lights 
Delay "1" I Mean 
Iirc, my ericw tools fgd doesn't have entries for the latest tool options ie phong shading and the radiosity lights, so you'll have to do that stuff by hand if you need to use them.

You did remember correctly, but no need to do it by hand, I've just updated the FGD to add the phong, bounce, and sun2 stuff (also lights' _project_texture key, which is fun to play with). A thousand pardons for changing some of the names you chose for the sunlight stuff, but with the new _sun2 keys it was starting to get a bit confusing. 
I can't see this in the light documentation, what is it and what does it do? 
I'm not sure when it was added, but in 0.15.5 it's documented in the LIGHT docs, just at the end of the "Light Entity Keys" section.

_project_texture is a key on light entities that specifies a texture to cast from that light, like a projector. The texture must be in the BSP, so you'll need to apply the texture you want to use to some surface somewhere before it'll work properly. Couple it with _bounce and I imagine you'd be able to make some nice stained-glass effects.

There's also _project_mangle and _project_fov, which do just what they sound like in terms of customizing said projector light.

I'm having a bit of trouble using it, actually, at least the _fov stuff seems a little fiddly. Maybe I'm just dumb, or maybe I have something in my FGD defined incorrectly, I'm not sure. 
Yeah, it's a feature Spike added for doing spotlights that project a texture like:

I think "_project_mangle" is buggy, the docs say it expects "yaw pitch roll" like a spotlight mangle, but I think it actually wants "pitch yaw roll".
I'll fix that in the next light release to be consistent with spotlights, so it's experimental/unstable only for now. 
Can you do animated lightmaps with this thing? 
With Textured Spotlights I Mean 
Not just blinking, but changing the texture. 
I doubt it. I guess it just spawns lights in places where specified texture occurs. 
I think you could do it.
Create multiple textured spotlights and give them unique targetnames. Set the START_OFF on one. Trigger both targets to toggle one off and the other on? 
My screenshot could be misleading, _project_texture doesn't make textures automatically project light, but it just makes that specific entity project that texture 
Glad You See This Lighting Discussion 
I'm still terrible at lighting, so thanks for posting these lighting links.

Oh, and I'm mapping in about an hour. 
Quoth Setting Up? 
Hey, is anyone else having wierd jumping to the other location and getting tuck to brush, and the last thing you remember is shooting while enemies in my case bob/executioner shoots you? Earlier I though it was just because of some bad habits of making too complex geometry, but that seems like it wasn't the case this time.

I'm using ne_q1spCompilingGui103 compiler and my setting are:

LIGHT.exe -> -bounce -bouncescale 0.1 -soft -extra4

VIS.exe ->

-hipnotic -game quoth -game jam7_newhouse -maps

Am I missing some commands or something? I just simple don't have any reasons to start redoing locations because problem is somewhere else, sorry for being pain in the ass. 
Looking Forward To This... 
Ah that's great, was really feeling some sort of late afternoon or evening setting for my map idea. 
@ericw / ItEndsWithTens 
better projection screenshot:

(sidenote: it only really works in that scene because of the increased lightmap res, it'd be too blurry otherwise. lmscale 4 iirc.)

automatic projection would probably be a mis-feature, unless the angle of the projection is according to the position of the sun rather than the orientation of the texture, or something. I dunno. either way it would get messy. 
firstly, I can't say I've really looked much at quoth specifically, so take what I say with a pinch of salt.

if the player ever gets stuck in a solid (which can actually happen quite a lot thanks to floating point precision especially around angled surfaces) then the player is teleported back to a last-known-good position, as defined by their .oldorigin field.

unfortunately there's a number of mods that repurpose that field, thinking it unused because the qc doesn't normally write to it. that's fine for non-players but baaad on players.
(sidenote: quakeworld engines attempt some jittering rather than rewinding.) 
Yes, this never happened to me while using AD mod. So it has to do something with Quoth mod or something.

I was like normally shooting inside in almost perfect cube and this happened. 
Or Maybe~ 
Maybe I should try to update quakespasm* 
Looks Like Something Has Messed Up 
you may have some funky geometry.

throw the map into jack / jackhammer and do the check for problems thing, also check the compiler output for errors / warnings. 
Thanks so much for your contribution to a more complete FGD file!

Very helpful and love to see even a model for the waterfall haha. 
It's That Time Again 
Thanks, But There Is Something Else.. 
I have looked up in Jack using that Alt + P and it only shows invalid texture issues because I don't use Jack so there is no definitions for them. I use Jack only for complex shapes what I can't do in TB2.

I work in TB2 because it's for me a lot faster, and after knowing how it actually wants to work, there is not going to be any problems with it to be honest.

Because I have no idea what to do, or fix in this map, I really would appreciate if someone more wiser could point out what I'm doing wrong?
Here is remade area of my jam map that caused even earlier same kind of problems. Zip includes map and wads I used:

Compiler has no errors and everything goes flawlessly in that part. But only if I try to check Skip option also in ne_q1spCompilingGui103's UI, then compiler says something like this "---SKIP--- "my file location path for utils" is not recognized as an internal or external command. 
Your map has less than 500 brushes. Why are you screwing around with skip? It's totally unnecessary on a map that small. Just texture things normally. Also, move your model type entities off the floor, 8 units minimum. 
I start using skip even though it might look stupid, eventually I don't want to map be unoptimized at the end. After Jam I'm going to continue and polish map anyway.

But entities need to be higher off the ground, really? 
You can build a 5000 brush map without skip and it can still be polished.

The error message is probably because skip is an external utility program and you either don't have it or it's in the wrong folder.

It's probably better to focus on the basics at first.

Placing entities flush against any brush surface is just asking for trouble. Leave some space. The only things I'll place closer than 8 units are lights. 
It's good to know it will run that much brushes I just blindly followed that example map in that jam zip "windows-test" something. And I also see sock using skip a lot in his maps, so I thought that is the professional way to make maps but how should I know - I'm not that familiar with this subject.

And indeed placing entities too near the brushes is caused me problems but I have always made sure to give just enough space what it requires - yes I know that quad damage power up is not shown etc.

Only thing what I care about is this wierd scenario.. another room behind that door has plasma gun soldiers and one bob. When I let them come through that door and keep moving and shooting them I eventually get stuck to floor and I haven't find the reason for that. Other than my map need more walls, because testing with just floor is causing the issue or something. 
Teleport Glitch 
unfortunately there's a number of mods that repurpose that field, thinking it unused because the qc doesn't normally write to it. that's fine for non-players but baaad on players.

Have taken a look, there's no place I can see where we use the oldorigin field on a player by design. Admittedly we do use it on quite a few non-player entities, but there would need to be some way that a function which is meant to be run on one of them is being run on the player instead by mistake. So I think the cause might be elsewhere.

NewHouse, can you e-mail me a copy of the map and I'll take a look, see if I can figure out what's causing this... 
skip strikes me as a really pointless OCD thing to do in quake maps. drawing 99% of the brush faces in the area as opposed to 100% of the faces, ain't gonna make any measurable difference to anything, ever. 
Isn't SKIP "deleted" by default in Tyrutils?

Any surfaces assigned a texture name of skip will be compiled into the bsp as invisible surfaces. Solid surfaces will still be solid (e.g. the play can't walk or shoot through them) but they will not be drawn. Water, slime and lava surfaces can be made invisible using the texture names *waterskip, *slimeskip and *lavaskip respectively.
Maybe it does I don't know, but the error message reads like the compiling gui is looking for something external.

"---SKIP--- ... is not recognized as an internal or external command." 
Is something I only use to simulate collision as func_walls.

Tried to compile. Got the error 'token too large on line 7'.

Tried a different method, compiling it externally using my normal batch file method. Compiled fine.

My .bat command line:
qbsp -epsilon 0.001 jam7_nh
light -extra4 -soft 1 -addmin -gate 10 jam7_nh 
Another Case Cracked 
OK, here's the deal. Your three monsters which are causing the problem have a killtarget key, but with an empty value. The problem is that this isn't the same as not having a killtarget! In fact what's happening is when they die, they killtarget every entity which matches the targetname "". This is basically everything on the map, including the player entity. That's why you get stuck - you've been deleted.

This bug isn't specific to Quoth (although I can see a way to patch a mod to make it less susceptible to it). If you convert one of those monsters to a regular Quake monster and run the map in vanilla id1 the same error occurs. The easy fix is to delete the key from those entities. 
Bloughsburgh, you're welcome! Thank Sleepwalkr, though, I wouldn't have known there was a waterfall model if not for TrenchBroom's Quoth 2 FGD. Incidentally, his and Preach's have the Slime and Blood skin names reversed, I'll need to file an issue or make a pull request on the TB repo.

Regarding the SKIP texture, I haven't worked with Quake as much as Source, but my experience with this lineage of games and compilers has led me to feel that optimization is the proverbial bike shed of the brush engine world. It's easy to get carried away and be "penny wise, pound foolish" when it comes to stuff like skip, or mitered corners.

As I understand compile theory, for how little I admittedly do, skip/null/nodraw is mostly unnecessary. The majority of faces that need to be invisible are taken care of by the tools: anything touching the void automatically gets skip, as does any internal face (places where, after BSP chops are done, a world geometry face butts flush up against another world geometry face, or detail against detail). In a bygone era I believe the faces were actually discarded, and not stored in the output .bsp, but nowadays they keep the faces and just make them invisible.

Skip textures are only beneficial for faces the compiler thinks are potentially visible, but that you as a mapper know the player will never be able to see. There tend not to be many of these in an average map, and starting from nodraw brushes only to manually texture them later forces you to pay the price of the technique a hundred percent of the time, when it only helps you in maybe five, ten percent of them, if that. For crazy stuff like that owl model I posted earlier, or some sort of curvy, twisty pipes, there can be tiny cracks that players won't notice but compilers will, in which case the inside might be better off with skip. That's comparatively rare, though, and just slapping a texture on the whole brush, entering texture mode and hitting "align left" and "align bottom" saves a useful amount of time while producing the same results. It's not much, but it adds up over hundreds, or thousands of faces you need to texture during a project.

The tradeoff of not bothering with skip unless you know it's really called for seems worth it to me. Doing everything with textured brushes, and neglecting to null a face that players will never see means only that your file will be ever so slightly larger, and performance will be almost immeasurably lower. On the other hand, starting with skip, texturing only what you think needs textures, but forgetting about a particular sight line in your map that you didn't expect players to reach means now they can see right through a wall. I'd rather have a technically imperfect map than one that spoils the fun of exploring these bizarre dimensions by reminding me it's a game. "Immersion" as a gimmick buzzword is annoying, sure, but it's still something I'm after when I play, or make, custom maps.

There is one other genuinely useful application of skip, however, and that's in editors like Jack which have a feature (in Jack's case, a button at the far right of the toolbar) to turn off display of null textures. A few carefully placed skip faces on the outside of your map and you can see through the walls, in turn making enemy/item placement in the 3D view a little more comfortable. 
I Admit It, I Laughed 
Best problem ever. 
God Dammit! 
I thought I already removed those targets when testing.. 
Okay, Now I'm Losing My Mind* 
And I did removed those targets, but it still happens.... what know? And yes I checked whether Source Map location is same as I'm modifying.. wierd thing is that it is the same.. there is no targets anymore. - but it still happens to me, so I assume I'm cursed. Happy mapping indeed. 
Problem Solved Now 
I needed to remove and replace them. There was something else than just targets that made them spawn me inside floor. Thanks for everyone making me do finally something so obvious. 
Thanks, I don't know why I started using skip especially for this map, but it really seems like a bad idea now. So now on if will not use it, because it is pointless mostly. 
Three Pics 
I should change the beam texture on the left in the last pic to a higher res one now that I think about it.

Also rofl that killtarget issue. 
Even Though Nobody Will Believe* 
But the problem haven't disappeared after clearing targets. It happens anyway, hopefully it some way dies out, because I really don't have energy to fight with this one wierd bug whether it's my fault or not. 
Newhouse, I noticed maybe every entity in that map has the angle key set. Is this maybe some editor or fgd type bug? Angle is not used on things like path_corner and normal lights. The strange thing is, looks like if there is no actual number entered they're set to "-0" 
Small Update 
Keep It Coming Guys 
Skacky: Pure class.

Breezeep: Glad to see things starting to take shape. Maybe offest the floor height on the second floor, but all else is looking well. 
Skip != Caulk 
There's no benefit for performance; it's purely visual. 
decided to try and build your pipes, but tilted instead of skewed on the grid

A bit of a pain in the ass requiring 1 unit grid and some funky 3 point clipping, but it's all properly tilted at a 1/4 ratio... Dealing with the texture projection is a bit wonky though.

(going back to not mapping now...) 
Rick, Breezeep_ & Skacky 

I just noticed that too. Executioners had -0 angle so I changed them to 0. But yeah Lights had that added by myself, it was just the visual thing because I thought game doesn't use it, I haven't had any error from them - but to be extra sure I really should remove them.


Looks nice some kind of id bunker when looking at this outdoor area.


Are you using this method? 
Shut up and go map!

NewHouse: I don't use this method but that's a good one! 
that's not how to use the name field =P 
Skacky: That's crazy, looks like a full quality map!

Breezeep: Looks great, love the rocky top half walls.

I am probably 80% done with basic brushes, and just started a light texture pass. I plan to have at least one progress shot this weekend when I can really have some time to work on the map! 
Preach Re: Post 169 
would it be better to patch in a compiler? 
@187 (Dear Shambler) 
I'm new here, and when it comes to my personality you can always expect from me this kind of behavior.

I have been mapping and not focusing this "bug of mine" thing. Currently using AD mod, because it has all same enemies I'm going to use anyway. For this jam my map can't be more than 10-25 of the polished map. So I really need to consider what I the most important parts when it comes to gameplay. So lots of Backtracking, but I try to make it as well as possible. 
@190 (Myself) 
10-25 percent of the polished map*

need to consider what are the most important parts when it comes to gameplay*

sorry I really don't know why I typo this fast. 
Zero Length Strings 
would it be better to patch in a compiler?

I don't think so. The compiler shouldn't even know what a killtarget is - it's entirely controlled by the QuakeC so in theory someone could completely change the field's meaning. Compilers are expected to be mainly mod-agnostic. And there may be some use case for a zero-length string vs a null string in other cases, so just blanket removing them for all fields might be unwise. Maybe some day a map hack will emerge which needs one...

Perhaps the case could be made for moving the protection to the map editor instead - so it's harder to get into this situation by accident. It would mean that if you're in a fringe situation where a zero-length string is needed you'd have to edit the text file by hand to get one, but my feeling is that it might be a rare enough requirement to justify that. 
Hmmm - Maybe Throw A Compiler Warning? 
a compiler warning when you have a key with an empty or whitespace value could be useful 
Alternate Direction 
Currently using AD mod, because it has all same enemies I'm going to use anyway.

I think one of the core rules is to make sure the map is Quoth compatible. While you don't have to use additions from Quoth I think AD may handle some similar entities and funcs differently. For instance, I am fairly certain trigger_ladder is handled differently between the two mods.

Just be sure to test in Quoth while you are mapping to avoid unnecessary backtracking. 
That and Quoth monsters and their AD counterparts are not 100% the same. 
Empty Killtargets And Bad Or Useless Angles 
A decent text editor is good for fixing these types of problems. 
In One Hour...

Thinking some early My Dying Bride. 
@#194, #196 
It is just a temporary solution why I'm using Ad mod. I know enemies in Quoth and AD aren't 100% same but has some kind of same features, if you know what I mean.

I try my best make it work on quoth, because it is required for this jam. If my bug really was that editor thought target(s) fields weren't empty really, I should open map file manually and fix it. I haven't done that earlier, but maybe it's not that hard. 
Ruibcon Textures 
Trying to look at the list of wads and I know speedy has some similar but is that wad available?

Breezeep's latest screenshot displays what I am referring to.

Ah that's it thanks OTP!

Wasn't thinking of JF haha. 
Ah that's it thanks OTP!

Wasn't thinking of JF haha. 
Roll Call Thursday 
It's that time again. I'll start:

5311 brushes. Half done maybe?

On this subject.

How are people feeling about next Thursday's deadline? Where are you guys at with your maps? 
Lighting Test

Not much progress on the rest of the map honestly, a deadline extension would be appreciated. 
Extra Weekend Maybe? 
3 main areas, 2 hallways almost done.
100% jam map would consist more something about:
2 main areas more, end area (teleport room) and lot more hallways and connections between these areas. I separated my progress into pieces week ago the same time I started having some issues with the mapping.

I can rush everything in time, but there will be less focus on unnesserary like ceiling and all extra detail - very pale looking map in some parts - if need to rush. 
Progress So Far 
Extension Would Be Fine 
I want to participate but it is difficult to ahem "jam" a lot of mapping time all at once.

I am going to get a lot more done this weekend or at least hope to but I would totally be for an extension. I feel I could get the map finished either way but it would be more polished with an extended deadline. 
I Think I Should Make The August 11 Deadline 
Some of us might have sleepless nights, but being young means it doesn't kill us. Unless drinking too much red bull. 
I think I'll make it for deadline too, but more time = more detail on a map :) 
Sometimes it is actually better without too much detail in everywhere* 
Interesting style you have there on texture combinations with brushwork, Ionous. You opened up lots of possibilities.

* Newhouse, your last file is missing for me. 
Too Many Technical Difficulties 
Argh, why didn't I just use tetragons everywhere and avoid the fuss. I think I'm going to have to bail. 
About The Theme? 
Does it really have to be just about water and pipes? Can pipes be used more artistically and put under stairs andgive some dramatic purple lighting?

Can water be more about some kind energy/plasma fuel power plant for example uses? Or does it have to be for swimming only? 
I'm sure it can be about anything as long as it's vaguely base textured.

Follow your dreams... 
Neat! I hate killing dreams all the time* 
Proof That Spirit Is The Worst: 
Didn't died even once on normal mode. I love the fact that enemies just kept coming and coming and..

But other than that not bad really. Felt more like doom level. 
Deadline Extenstion To August 18th 
Alright, I'm going to extend the the deadline out a week. I know I could certainly use the time. 
Oh, Good. 
Guess I get to worry a bit less about getting my map done in time. 
Now You Can't Fuck Up, Guys ;) 
Thank you, I will be sure to have the map I have in my head by that time! 
I Appreciate Very Much 

Now I can actually make it stunning, and that's the promise. Thought first I need to learn how to make pipes look better, texturing is pain in the ass when there is a lot of bending even though it follows 45 / 22.5 degree rule. 
How To Make Glass? 
Is it fine to use func_wall and set parameter "alpha" and value to something 0.3 and that will works as a glass.. is it going to work on fitzquake as well?

Is there specifically for that method made glass textures? Or something that can be used as a glass - I put some metal textures and it looked like used/dirty window which is not the bad thing ~ but I'm trying to make glass look more pure/shiny at some parts of the map.

Is there way to make glass project light more or less? So the human eyes can see it a lot faster "oh, that must be glass". 
In the apsp2.wad packaged with the map jam 7 bundle, there is a texture called *glass01

Used in combination with the window creation instructions also bundled should help you get somewhere! 
Quality lighting in that shot, perhaps just need a few more vertices to really show it off. 
...second shot 
I will give it another shot, maybe this time it works without this weird rendering / z-fighting issue. 
Curved Pipes And TrenchBroom 2 
Is it possible? I have to be missing something.

Following CGZ's curve guide I can get all the way until this point:

"Next up, I stretched that bit out, so it was long enough to reach the "corner" of the curve I was going to make, and skewed it so the start of it was flush with the end of the pipe I already had"

The problem I am facing is the Skewing part. I don't think TB2 has this operation other than vertex editing. I tried to manipulate vertices but it just got into a cluster soup.

Any insights on this or a step by step to help with these issues when considering TrenchBroom 2 as the editor?

Otherwise, I might just make right angled pipes ;) 
Z-fighting When Trying To Make Glass Brush 
If I create one brush and give it texture *glass01 then I create another brush and give it skip texture like in that example. I need to combine them in a same space that they are equal to one another.

As an result I get z-fighting. Is the problem in my compiler how it handles skip textures? I Ealier pointed out this "skip" texture subject, but this time it might be an actual purpose on creating glass effect, right? 
Whenever there is complicated tasks in brush geometry I personally use J.A.C.K for those, less headache* 
Brush Tool 
Thanks NewHouse,

I found that the Brush Tool in TB2 can help with my issue. I can create a brush by selecting all 4 corners of both ends of the pipe sections, this properly creates the links and makes a pipe corner. Still any other methods people use would be appreciated! 
Are you using these guides for you curves?

In TB2 you can also use that other "grid" view when working on vertices, I assume you're using two windowed interface option (3d camera/ top down view)? 
Yes, I am using that guide in particular.

I generally just use the 3D camera only, but for this tutorial I am using the 2d view split. I was using the grid view that would match the tutorials. Editing vertices still just causes a complete mess, if I could skew the brushes I would be golden. 
Call Me Crazy 
I might sound crazy but I actually rotate brushes in TB2, then I place it almost in place I want it to be.
Edit -> snap vertices to integer. Then slowly matching it better on grid. I you use snap vertices to grid, remember adjust your current grid view to something you want your brush's vertices to snap.. if remember right.

I do this because sometimes it is hard to tell how much space some of the pieces actually needs, so I can freely resize whenever I need to. As long as they eventually are in grid then everything is fine.

Thought I do prefer angles like: 22.5, 45, 45+22.5 etc so they should be in the end in in grid flawlessly. Reason why I use rotate tool was, because it didn't calculated x and y scale for texture and looked stretched imo. But after rotating and then carefully snapping it to right points, it was in right scale in texture-wise yet in world grid.

In some cases.. for example kind of cylinder.. you can use that combine brushes by using that Edit -> CSG -> Convex Merge. For curves I haven't used Subtract or Intersect yet, so I can't recall whether or not it handles those texture scales or not. 
I just use simple rise/run ratios. Mostly 1:1, 2:1, 3:1, etc, with some 2:3 in places. Very easy to keep on grid and only a few texture scales to remember. 
Diddo Rise/run 
Does TB2 have skew though? 
Things Askew 
I don't think TB or TB2 has a skew feature as demonstrated in the curve tutorials. 
How does that brush tool works even?
It has quite weird logic behind it and can't get hand of it at all. Is it demonstrated somewhere, documents or something? 
TB2 Help 
In TB2, you can access the documentation through the help menu.

This is a very handy document to getting all you can out of the editor, including the brush tool. It is in the creating objects section 
Makes My Life A Bit Easier 

Now I can make pipes in TB* 
Is not supported in TB2. It's on my todo list. But first I need to get it more stable and do the final 2.0 release. 
Great to hear from the one and only!

No problem, I'll make do with what I can, my map idea really doesn't require curved pipes anyway was more a curiosity.

Looking forward to future releases! 
It's very much possible to make bending pipes in TB2 and honestly very easy. It's even possible to do that in TB1 with no 2D views.

I made this 45� bending pipe in TB2 as well. 
Cool to see,

Did you use vertex mode? 
Slow Progress... 
Finally managed to draw out a layout for the whole level on paper; now starting to block out some new areas. If I can resist detailing and texturing for a while longer I may have a chance at having something playable by the deadline. 
Needs A Lot Of Thinking 
I'm slowly starting to realize how the starting area should feel yet look. 
Looks Good 
Good starting layout flatHead, keep it up!

Looks like an interesting map so far from that view NewHouse. 
Thanks Bloughsburgh* 
I wasted great amount of time when trying to make control room without clear vision, and in the end I decided to focus on flow and make decisions in that sense. I try to keep layout kind of simple..

I really don't know whether I have time to make everything I have in my mind. I have to push out at least one big fight. 
I honestly have no idea what I am doing, but I like what I have so far.

My initial idea was a lot more grounded but what I have now is rather abstract. I never mapped for a base theme and it is a different challenge to say the least.

I am lightly texturing and detailing as I go, but the main focus is to plot the route of the map. After that, the fun begins with details, lights, entities, etc. 
Keys, Keys, Keys? 
Is there how many keys available and how?

Yellow, Silver cards... is there third one for example disc like in Quake2? Or red card works might work as well. 
Afaik there are only 2 keys in 4 visual variants. You can always use some trigger, to open a door. Maybe add some button or lever to activate them? Or some other action - you have many options. 
Something Logical? 
Thanks, had another vision where player need to turn power on before pressing the button and activating elevators in base.. so it seems like I don't need key for that.

I'm going to use silver key(s) already for the different purposes. Though it really makes me wonder why there is only two kinds of keys available, doom had 3 types of keys even. 
With The Extended Deadline...Maybe 
My map is not looking good lol...

I guess was not a good idea to try learn from the basics, and meet a deadline when I'm too busy XD

Will keep working on it till I think it's acceptable, but the map wont be on this Jam.

I made a lot of mistakes, and learned a lot! really wanna work more on quake maps.

Can't wait to see what you guys have done!! 
Nice Shots, Qmaster 
That's Looking Mighty Fine Qmaster 
Crazy Cave 
Whoo, loving the subtle blues Qmaster! 
More Like Green* 
Looks very nice, but mine is going to be pure blue theme ;p 
Looks legit. 
Gorgeous color scheme, Qmaster! You're the second or third person in this thread I've gotten intensely jealous of after seeing you perfectly pull off colors I'd wanted to use. You rat bastards. :D

Wish I could say I had any screenshots of my own, but the past week has been unexpectedly busy and I'm not much of a multitasker.

I do have something to share, though, a small update to my FGD that avoids a possible editor conflict between different versions of 'delay' that appear in various places in the file. Technical details aside, those using Jack should now be able to set a target to turn a light into a spotlight, and also have the nice dropdown menu for Attenuation with its friendly names, instead of having to type in a number. 
ItEndsWithTens - Noice ! 
Geometry - 85%
Lite Texturing - 100%
Detailed Texturing - 30%
Detailed Brushes - 40%
Entities - 5%
Lighting - 0%
Testing - 10%

I got some work to do, but filling in the creamy filling is my favorite part! ;O

Once I finish detailing, I'll post WIPs if it isn't' already the deadline! 
Something That Will Stay The Same* 
about 3/10 done.. haven't finished ceilings yet, because lot of areas are under work until the layout is tested out well.

Here is couple areas that will stay as they are now:

I haven't sure yet about fog, but I will play around couple settings I used different map. Cyan/Blue eerie fog might look good or not.. I have to try out something like that. 
Ooh those screens give a really cold and isolated vibe. Looks great! 
Cold Indeed 
Map is going to be called out of jam7 "IceCore", when it is finished/polished. It might not look much right now, but hopefully it will end up being what I'm seeing already* 
I like the lighting and shapes, reminds me of the first few maps of Doom 64. 
Is this the FGD you're using, right? Thanks for it!

As for me, I'm still greyboxing. No screenies atm. 
Interesting to know* I haven't personally ever played doom 64, only doom 1, 2 and a lots of custom episodes yet mods.

I could say I have played Doom more than Quake in my past, but I have to say I prefer Quake more nowadays - it feels just right to me. And my favorite episode in Quake is Episode 4, even though many people seems to dislike it "because spawns mostly I guess". 
Skacky is right, it has a distinctly Doom64 vibe. 
..but you like what you see? 
but yeah, as long as it's in original Quake's color pallet (which I am using), why not use them? 

Let's just say it suits my palate. 
DOOM 64 Is Good 
I was getting the blue section of the Staging Area (Stage 01) from your screens, and yes I like what I see. 
Let's Not Forget DOOM 64 
Yeah, I can't pronounce "Palette" in Finnish "Paletti" if interested* 
Currently Over Halfway Through D64 
Little bland, both visuals and gameplay. I'm sure it was hot shit on console back in the day, though. 
Well I can't really tell, but it seems like Doom 64 Ex version has a decent amount of options for rendering and brightness. Design-wise levels might be a bit linear? But I can't really tell, because I haven't played Doom64. 
Doom64EX is good, but even better is that it has a level editor :) 
Not a lot of content is being produced though. And the quality of what's being made is typically rather basic, despite Doom community having a lot of experienced mappers. 
I was working on some stuff but I haven't found my groove when making Doom maps. 
Doom, Doom 2, Doom 3, Doom 64, Doom 2016... 
Looks like id does not like to follow a consistent versioning schema. :) 
And Now, For The Second Stupid Thought Of The Day... 
Now that Nintendo finally decided to open up their platforms, I wonder what would happen if somebody attempted to publish their own port of Doom as a 3DS/Wii U app, on their own. Now that should be something worth watching ;D 
Different Use Of Lights? 
Has anything especially good released in Doom community lately?

By the way, is there way to light up sectors or somehow capsule light inside brush, then giving delay when light should starts and it would make a really nice "domino" lighting effect as an result*

In duke nukem 3d episode 2 I saw one hallway with that kind of lighting (look at walls left and right). Starts from 3:47** 
Light Delay (Actual Delay, Not Fade Off) 
You can use trigger_relay(s) to give a delay to your lights. If you have a hallway and 16 lights to light up dominoe style when player walks in, have a trigger relay with same targetname that targets each different light and give each relay a longer wait time than the last one. 
Thanks, I know that*

What I was asking was how to make light be more precise and not in a sphere shape. Doom used sector lighting, it would be nice to make that even in Quake.

I almost managed to make it work using func_wall brushes, between lights and then removing them when the map starts. But there should not be any caps between light sectors. 
You want to use ericw's tyrlite to create light projections. I have no idea how though and couldn't find any documentation. 
It Would Be Interesting 
Combining Quake's lighting and Doom's sector lighting would add a lot more contrast to the map to be honest. Hopefully that is somehow possible to make, it doesn't need to be the most elegant way to do it - as long as it works?

In other map (which I haven't released yet) I even light up some of the func_train brushes in totally different location, because in some cases light wouldn't touch faces that are visible when something opens for example. I'm not by any mean familiar with these techniques but even something like that might work maybe? 
How Much Focus Matter In Level Design* 
Hopefully this gives some inspirations for future Quake maps: 
Back (for At Least Part Of Today) 
I'm liking a lot of the stuff people are posting. Great work.

I'll be getting back to it in about an hour. 
About Sentinels 
Is it possible to make sentinels move between path_corners? By default it just seems to just stay there. 
They're stationary enemies. 
You Could Teleport Them? 
would probably be annoying as hell though. 
It's Starting To Look Like An Actual Quake Map Now 
For people with properly calibrated monitors:
Looks pretty impressive! 
You can go absolutely nuts with this obscure Quoth feature: 
Tempted To Use My Own Mod...hrmmm 
Hmm, thought I'd do a full vis for fun...started 2 days ago, still only at 55%. The full release will therefore miss the deadline or else have only fast vis (meh maybe not so bad but...) 
Use Func_detail Man 
Absolutely I will use teleports, I will make everyone hate the map ; P 
Forget How To Use Func_detail 
I listened when you guys talked about it earlier, but I haven't used it personally ever, what is the purpose of func_detal brushes and how to use them? 
Thanks dude* 
They are used to decreased compile time. Brushes set to be detailed are usually just that - details in your level like rafters, shelving, overhangs...stuff that isn't the basic geometry of your maps. 
More Precisely Please? 
Thanks Bloughsburgh. But because I want to understand it practically/precise, let me do couple questions:
Situation 1:
I have a wall that made of 3-4 slices of different brushes with different textures, do I move func_detail brush over all that?

If I have a square brush which is on floor and has sliced in two parts, do I move func_detail brush over that as well.

I already use clips in some cases, but clips are used to add that collision only right? Func_detail doesn't add collision?

Sorry my bad English* 
By "isn't the basic geometry" do you mean detail that has no collision? 
by collision I mean "collision mesh/box" 
Detail brushes are included when the collision hull is created. They are just ignored by Vis.

Vis basically just calculates which parts of the map are visible from other parts. Any parts that don't significantly affect line of sight could be made detail.

However, any brush that contributes to sealing the map or contacts the unsealed area should not be made into detail. 
I should probably add that the main reason for visibility calculation is so that the Engine only has to render what is visible from the player's position. That was pretty important back when Quake was new. Most mappers would carefully monitor "r_speeds 1" for their maps. 
By visibility calculation do you mean back side of the brushes or sides that are never shown to player? But why not use skip texture then? 
Or is there something to do with this "less time more results" mentality. Maybe I didn't just get it, because I'm stupid. But it sounds like you can place func_detail brushes between walls so everything before that "cut point" are calculated, am I on right direction now? 
It Seams To Me 
Just figured I'd ask before going further:

Trying to use a waterfall that is "3" models high. Preach's Tome of infinite wisdom states to have each one be 4 units back from the last.

Here is a picture of my attempt, granted it looks okay in the picture but there is an obvious seam where each fall starts in game.

Is that the intended look? Or maybe someone could steer me in the right direction. 
The basic, low-poly skeleton of your map should be made with worldspawn brushes - this will define the spaces that vis uses to create the potential visibility information for the map.

In addition to this basic hull there will be various brushes that add detail and other embellishments to the geometry.

Any brush which doesn't significantly block the player's view should probably be detail. Specific examples include:

Pillars, plinths, supports.
Beams, trusses, buttresses.
walls that don't extend all the way to the ceiling of the room.
Suspended walkways, platforms, overhangs.
Arches (e.g. build arches in such a way that when you hide the arch, a boxy hull is underneath).
Steps (create a smooth wedge-shaped world brush underneath).
Furniture and other clutter.
Rocks, terrain etc.
etc. etc. etc.

MOST IMPORTANT - do not use detail to seal gaps in your basic "map skeleton" - i.e. imagine hiding all your func_detail brushes - when these are hidden, the structure of your map should still look watertight. 
Stepped Waterfalls 
Is that the intended look? Or maybe someone could steer me in the right direction.

Yeah, that's more or less what you get. The built-in waterfall model can't be tiled into a single seamless flow. This is because the water falls with acceleration - each wave moves faster the further down the model it gets. Once you get to the bottom, you have fast water meeting slow water below. So the idea is long waterfalls get made out of several smaller steps, with the water landing on a lip and then flowing over the next.

It can look a bit off, but one thing that can help is staggering the animations of the waterfalls. Setting the frame key to a number between 0 and 25 staggers the animation, but you need to work around a bug first! The workaround is simple, set targetname to a placeholder value you don't ever trigger elsewhere in the map, like "!!!invalid-target". That way the waves aren't all landing at the same time on each one.

Another option is to make the steps more distinct by offsetting each one more than 4 units, with a little pool of water between them. This might communicate the steps better. Here's a screenshot of how that might look: 
What's r_speeds? 
So basically everything which is more complex inside my map's basic structure/skeleton and so can be set as func_detail.

So if I have a bunch of boxes in one hallway for example, which are sliced and made to be a bit different than just 32x32, 48x48.. should I check one by one that element's brushes, so every one of those parts are indivually func_detail or are talking about selecting them all making them as a ground func_detail, is that what you're saying?

But all the other boxes that are in normal shape and size (normal square 32x32, 48x48, 64x64)... are those details as well? But that would mean that most of the map is basically func_details. 
Thank you for the detailed explanation, I was hoping for a response from you.

I'll play around with it and see where it goes! 
individually* as a group* sorry my typos 
"r_speeds 1" is a command you type in the console. It prints out info as to how many polys the engine is actively drawing and roughly how long it's taking. It's real time, so as you change position and direction, the numbers change.

In the old days you would target 800 or less and 1000 was really pushing it. Today, on a decent computer, I don't think it means much. It's probably debatable whether a full vis is really necessary.

I looked around in the map I'm working on, and with only fast vis the worst I can find is a little over 6000 polys in barely 3 millisecs, and it runs like greased lightning. 
I'm hitting around 25k wpolys on my latest map. :D

My surface pro does experience slow down in places. So if you have an equivalent of an intel 4000 graphics card it might not be optimal. 
Yes, all of those boxes should be func_detail.

Structural non-detail stuff is generally your real basic "floor, wall, ceiling" type stuff. Things like crates and other filler is not typically placed to block visibility of one major area to the next, and is a candidate for func_detail.

The compiler does not care whether each box is its own func_detail, or the whole group is func_detail - so the best option (for your sanity) is clearly to group that whole box pile as one func_detail.

But that would mean that most of the map is basically func_details.

Quite possibly, yes. 
I always avoided using detail brushes because I saw several maps that did and had problems.

I don't know for sure, but aren't there some caveats with detail brushes? Such as you can't use them to seal the map and can't have them extend into the void?

I don't really know why they were called "detail" anyway. They're not actually like detail brushes in Quake 2 or Quake 3. Those were more like Quake's func_wall. These detail brushes are more like clip brushes with visible texturing. 
Thank you very much, now it's crystal clear to me finally* 
Pros: Doesn't block vis
Doesn't add leafs
Doesn't add to vis compile time

Cons: Doesn't block vis
Doesn't seal map
Adds to max visible leafs during play 
Func_Detail Part 2 
Use of these is for the mapper only. When faced with a 4 day compile time even with 8 cores, one tends to want to use them for everything. Treat the vis like minecraft. Any angled brushes get turned into details. 
Rick, Qmaster 
Yes obviously they can't be used to seal the map but the whole thing about not having detail brushes extending (through a structural brush) into the void is a murkier area, and I don't think I've ever seen a clear discussion of whether or not this actually causes issues and why... 
Build your entire map inside a 8192x8192x8192 box and make all your other geometry into a func_detail. It's cruise control for awesome. 
Just to give an idea how func_detail work, I've provided a few screenshots from my jam5 map with func_detail filtered on and off. The remaining brushes when they're filtered off are worldspawn brushes (save for the odd func_illusionary). 
Got it to compile with full vis. Woop...only 11 minutes this time. I found that one particularly egregious 384 brush tetrahedron soup group was not actually a func_detail as it should be. Oops. That wiped out over 1000 leafs and 10mb of final bsp file size. Now the bsp is only 21mb. (ha yes only!) Just need to finish the lighting and enemy placement and a few areas now.

Ugly full brights (need to light):

Nicer half lit areas (need to light slightly more):

Yes, sprite based a a cave. 
Looking really nice, btw how did you managed to make that glass? Could you demonstrated it in a practice, not just logical theory bullshit which doesn't tell me anything.

I have tried that two times now, I always receive annoying z-fighting in the surface. So I need to use glass* texture for brush, is that brush also func_wall or not? What then? Clip brush over it, right? What then, is that all what is really needed? 
Could someone demonstrate it to stupid noob like me. 
There are instructions with the mapjam7 bundle by Than.

But okay:

1) Grab the apsp2 wad from the jam bundle
2) Create a brush for your glass (Simple square)
3) Set the *glass texture from the wad for the square brush
4) Make it a func_wall
5) add an alpha key with value of 0.35 or 0.50 or however transparent you want your glass to be.

That's your basic glass. If you want colored ones, then you use a different solid color. 
So only thing this time was, I didn't remember simply just try to set up those alpha values, even though I made earlier glass using different texture (not *glass), putting func_wall and alpha.. reason why I get carried away, mind have been that I mentioned it here and didn't get reply for that and then I just forget.

Thank you for making it clear to me again. That time I was also messing around with skip textures which might be the reason why I received that z-fighting. I really don't want to talk about, because I'm sure I already get it wrong, but that's just me.

Now that I have making choices in areas how to replace windows, because at time it felt like I will never make them work on time, but now it seems like utterly easy to do - I need to start re-thinking some areas. 
might have been* 
Glass Is Interesting 
is the glass supposed to look like this, or does not glass care about about lights at all? 
Glass Solid Color? 
Is it possible to give func_wall key "_color", and use that the same way as in lights which chooses the color of light.. is there solid_color key even? 
This kind of glass is merely a trick. It's made of liquid, essentially. Liquids can't be lit in most engines.

That's why the texture is solid - so you don't see it warp. 
Five Days Left 
The end draws near. Who's in? Who's out? I'll be finishing up the start map in a few days, so I'd like to know how many level entrances I need to make.

Some things to note:

Make sure that your map exits to 'jam7_start'.

Send completed maps over to 'voice DOT of DOT the DOT nephilim AT gmail DOT com' when complete. 
I'm not sure I'll make the deadline, to be honest. I took a break when the deadline got extended but I kind of lost my mojo in the process, so to speak. 
I Am In 
Always wanted to be a part of a jam and I will make the deadline.
Definitely a new experience to do this much mapping at this rate with life never slowing down but I will finish!

Count Bloughsburgh in! 
Count Bloughsburgh 
Sounds like a title. 
If I can't reach all of my goals I simple just lower my goals so I can make at least decent map. For example I have no time to make higher floor at all, even though I will leave the elevator - I just fill with couple boxes and set some dramatic red flickering lights there.

But anyway, I'm in ~ count NewHouse in!

BTW I haven't done start map ever, is it easy to do? I really wouldn't like to spend much time on that. 
Not Very Sure If I Can Finish My Map In Time... 
I haven't done much work on my map this past week. 

Now I want to go play Castlevania. 
Remember, only on your break* 
Feeling bad I never had anything to show so here is one picture from in game. Lighting is off from the screenshot and ignore the trigger brush that isn't set as a trigger yet!

Brushwork - 90%
Lighting - 80%
Entities - 10%
Logic/Gameplay - 40% 
I Will Have Something Too! 
Maybe it won't be 100% what I wanted, but still I'll have something ;)

Deadline is 18th 23:59? or 0:00? and what time zone? 
Time Zone* 
I live in Finland, and for me it's now monday 1:13AM when is my deadline? At least I want to keep my sleeping rhythm normal. 
Don't worry lighting is imo just about 1/3 of the map or even less - other than that it looks really nice old-school styled map. I personally almost feel bad about how I'm mapping my map, I constantly try to hold back and focus on "abstract level design".

I started working on Control Room and Entrance. But I will show it yet, it wouldn't be surprise then ~ If I show everything about my map ;P 
Midnight Pacific Time. Which I think is the next day for most people out there. Granted, if you're a little late, it's not a huge deal. 
I will not show it yet* 
My map won't be released on time, I've had an interstate trip and three weeks of sickness to deal with.

It's getting there, but slowly. I'll release it as a mapjam-addendum later. 
Are you talking about DLCs now ; ) 
Nah Man 
It's a gold subscriber special, I'm going to mail it out on floppies. It will have a loader and be ace'd across multiple volumes. 
International Shipping Available? 
Sure... International Shipping For Only 4 Small Payments Of $49.95 
I wonder just how many Australians there are here for the local shipping? 
Trigger States 
Does Quoth support trigger states?


Go through one area where a trigger_once is passed but it is currently "turned off". After you do some things, coming back to this area the trigger is now "on".

I know there are some hacks to get something like this to work but just wondering if Quoth already supported. 
Check out this and other logic entities: info_logic_inopen ,with this and trigger_multiple you could block trigger from firing events. I use this logic elements to make multi-condition doors :) 
Just Quick Question About Custom Sounds. 
How to play custom/default sounds?

If I use func_train how do I play "Machine" sound which is common for basic base doors? In func_door it is sounds 2: Machine. Do I just type it, but there is no custom option in func_train.. 
From what I am aware only has that rackety sound. You might want to use a horizontal func_door or something. You could try to play with the sound point entities as well. 
Func_train Sounds 
I haven't updated the FGD yet, since I don't fully understand the process myself, but func_train has keys named 'noise' and 'noise1' that you can use to play custom sounds. The documentation here is out of date, I think, since as far as I can tell 'noise' is the stop sound and 'noise1' is the start sound, with no clear way to play a separate sound effect for movement (or a way to stop a looping start sound when the train stops, which I thought might have been a nice workaround).

Right now I'm using a play_sound_triggered, set to the sound effect I want, and with a 'target' of my train so the effect plays from that entity's origin. I've also set attenuation ('speed') to -1 to play at full volume everywhere, since although the sound effect is only positioned at the train's starting origin, and doesn't otherwise move with the object.

If I had a better understanding of this I'd updated my FGD with the extra fields, but for the time being you can just disable SmartEdit in Jack and add noise and noise1 yourself, if you want them.

On the subject of my own map, between last week's distractions, this week's heatwave, and a general lack of ideas, I've gotten basically nothing done. I'm working on something now, but I wouldn't hold out much hope for it being done in time. I did Retro Jam 4 in 4 days, though, so fingers crossed. 
Thanks For Educating Me More* 
Unfortunately I use Trenchbroom and I mostly try to figure out keys from docs etc. Sounds a bit tedious to play around different sounds.. I already made something wierd combining trigger, doors, and func_train.. it's messy and I'm not proud about it - but it seems I don't have much time to work around this. But definitely for the more polished version I'm going to use some of that knowledge. 
How To Make Buttons. 
How to make button which requires silver key and it trigger func_train? 
Small Door 
Well first thing that comes to mind is just make that button a door. I think only doors can have the SILVER KEY REQUIRED key so if you want the actual key in the inventory to be used you'd have to go that route. Could be wrong, that's just what I know. 
I'm Out 
I just don't have the motivation to continue working on my map. Sorry to disappoint you, guys. 
Logical Way Of Doing Func_door + Silver Doors 
This works but I really don't like how it looks.
I made func_button brush, I made func_wall over it - I name it "button_blocker". I made func_door and set up flag requires silver key "16". I made two trigger_relays, and set them to kill both of these "blocker/checkers" leaving just the button wich is targeted to activate func_train glass window. >_>; 
Even Quake RetroJam had DLCs if I remember right, what was the idea behind it - are we all privileged to make DLC maps, does those has deadline as well? 
It was just a joke. 
No more joking around, how is your map coming along btw? 
Haven't Made Much Progress, Sadly 
The burn out is real. Also been busy with other things. 
Just Try To Sleep As Much As Possible 
My sleeping rhythm went crazy during this jam, and started taking naps.. don't know but it really helped to get some of that energy for mapping. 
Alpha + Moving Brush? 
Is it possible to make func_train or fun_door and apply key "alpha" and set transparency? Glass Doors, or some of the doors have transperency brushes. 
Try It Out! 
I would say the only way to find out is to try it! the alpha key works for many things. That's also a great idea as well! 
Sorry Before Asking I Just Did That* 
func_train brush, I added it key alpha and it was invisible or something like that ^^;

Maybe it might works in different mods or idk. But for this jam version it's just going to be just normal visible door. I was just thinking of teasing the player I bit~

Ambushes really needs some variety, you think so? ; ) 
erhm.. I meant to "don't we all agree", my grammar is the best. 
Mixing up the gameplay for a 20+ year old game is rather essential. 
The Hardest Part To Learn Is.. 
What made it work at the first place. I'm still struggling to understand some of the level design aspects, especially when it comes to naturally increasing challenge, but not overwhelming the player.

There shouldn't be too big caps in difficulty.. but ambushes yet surprises can vary more from "normal" gameplay. But in other hand "mistakes" are just personal opinions.. some of the players except/ or just like unfair situations in maps.. it is hard to have a clear vision what will make this map memorable.. does it have enough landmarks.. is focus points clear to player or not... and most important part - do you like your map.

In jams like these, it is really hard to focus on all those aspects. It really made it more manageable, when the deadline was extended. I can really admire people who can do such large maps only in 2 weeks. 
Skill Select 
Do we have to make skill select map as well? 
Refer To Post #340 
I'll be finishing up the start map in a few days, so I'd like to know how many level entrances I need to make.

Some things to note:

Make sure that your map exits to 'jam7_start'.
Thanks, Bloughsburgh 
Didn't see that post. I don't think I'm gonna make it on time, unfortunately. Some good ideas, all things sketched, but still in greybox. 
Not enough time. 
Func_train Notes/Fruity Loops 
Apologies for the mix-up in the documentation for func_train - "noise" is the sound made when reaching the destination, and "noise1" is the travelling sound. But where's the starting sound?

The answer is that it's in the same sound file as the travelling sound. As you may already know, the way to create a looping sound in Quake is to add a "tag" to a certain point in the sound track. The quake engine will play the sound all the way through first time round. Then when it comes to loop it, it only rewinds it as far as the tag, before playing out to the end of the track again.

So for a custom launch sound and movement loop, you have to append the loop track to the start sound track, and then mark the point at which the launch sound ends and the loop beings with a tag. The existing Quake loops for doors and plats offer examples.

Bonus content: Please enjoy three pictures of a map which I only started after the original deadline passed. It will not be finished in three days, DLC all the way...
Shot 1 --- Shot 2 --- Shot 3 
... And Maybe I Missed It But... 
.. release date was supposed to be August 11, 2016... I guess it has been delayed.. correct ?

So what is the next target date ? 
August 18th 
Preach, cool screenshots and I better see EVERY entity used to its fullest! ;) 
Great !! 
Loved the chicken cage. New feathered monster in the makes? 
Thanks Preach 
I saved what you said, maybe in future that information will make it a lot easier to work with sounds*

I have been doing a lot of brush/light work, and I'm sure I will make it to the deadline.

Here is intentionally dark control room I'm working right now, I have to make the ceiling higher so no light can reach the end: 
I went through all posts and I see only NewHouse will finish his map on time! Shame... 
Couple extra days for others then? What about you khreathor, are you still in? 
I am will absolutely finish my map on time. :) 
I'm In. 
I have simplified my map topology, to fit the deadline, still have few cool things. 
Hey man, how is your gameplay logic coming along? Any problemns, or is everything going smoothly* 
And Ionous Is Still In? 
So about 4 people at least I guess..? 
That is what I am doing this very moment. Going through and fixing logic errors. I have 90% of the map done, and just made a pass to fix a bunch of errors. I still need to iron out a few bugs, finish the final room, and then make skill 1 and 0 runs.

How about yourself? 
I spent too much time on "logic" shit :D Now I'm speedruning with last room and enemies. I have only one skill level :P 
Scripting Is Time Consuming* 
This possible biggest slice of my jamming time when to control room's one interesting room and figuring out interesting ways of hiding secrets and making them meaningful for the player find.

I will try to implement a new type of using secrets.. it's called "found silver keys" "access gifts later" or in one specific location. So that ate most of my time "today", but I still have enough time for basic ambushes which I'm more familiar with.. ending part is going to be time consuming in scripting part, because.. you know.. ending is always hard to figure out. 
Fastest Way To Make Skill Levels* 
Just increase the enemy count ; p 
Oh no, not Quoth again! I loathe Quoth stuff, on top of not being very fond of the base theme... For the next map jam, may I suggest an Arcane Dimensions theme? 
Arcane Dimensions Has A Theme? 
It Will Be Done By Thursday 
I've had a dearth of time due to work commitments, but my map will be done, albeit cut to the bone with regards to...well, everything. The seams will be obvious where I stitched things together last-minute. Oh well.

Final tally:

Those close to finishing, I'd advise to keep going. There's always the chance a sudden burst of creativity may push your map into completion. One never knows. 
More Stuff To AD Mod? 
This might sound weird, but I really would like to use sentinel monsters more in the future, but if it's only quoth specific monsters..

At least for me this is gonna be problem especially when wanting to make full length episode with different themes and lots of variety of monsters from zombie_knights to alien like monsters, and maybe even cyborgs..

I even was thinking to use one of the 'Abyss of Pandemonium' monsters, but I'm not sure is that copyrighted product + all of it's content. I assume that you can't use multiple mods for single complete episode, right?

I was trying to find name of this monster, I just watched walkthrough of this non-official quake mission pack, and it just seemed interesting if maybe after updating its old ai and stuff:

All I want to say, is maybe it's better to have one really big mod, than thousands of others.. sure I had problems first getting into quoth mod, and I'm not saying that there is anything bad about it.. but in comparison ad seems to be much more complete package to me - and it always would be nice to have everything in one package. Enemies matter so much when making interesting gameplay. 
Coming from someone who first opened a Quake editor last November when AD wasn't released yet, I can say Quoth was THE mod.

The ability to spawn monsters in without the use of extra triggers was a winner alone. New monsters, weapons, more tools to play with...and an expansion to base monsters really opened up some doors.

AD furthers the refinement of mods like Quoth which offers even more tools/additions. Than used Quoth for the jam's inspiration map so that is probably a good reason as to why.

Personally, unless it is a jam or event I will most likely always map using AD just from the additional tools that come with it. 
I Do Appreciate 
All what Quoth started I do appreciate so much. But pointing out that life goes on, better tools appear and so on. But for this jam it kind of makes sense to use Quoth, because it was THE mod*

And I love sentinel enemy ; P 
AD still feels like it's in flux. Well, it IS in flux, as new features are being added as we speak. But it also has certain inconsistencies, mostly pertaining to models. A lot of stock models are still in use, and they clash with the new, more polished content. More replacements are to come in the next update, but now I worry about styles clashing instead of (or rather in addition to) quality.

Aside from a few minor things that need fixing, Quoth always felt like a very seamless addition to the original Quake content. The models are about the same quality, and even the sounds are all strangely fitting, despite them being taken from different sources.

It also feels like Quoth has a more pronounced focus on Lovecraftian content, but maybe it's because of the maps released so far. 
Adds More To The Gameplay~ 
Quoth + zombie knight, hogre, minotaur(better skin), spiders/scorpions (I like spiders), bob/jim (rocket/laser), eddie etc.

I'm just wondering because I already use in other map zombiek(zombie knight) mixed with ogres and knights(living). That mixing makes the combat feel a lot more challenging. I love enemies that can add totally different tactics to the gameplay. That's why I basically was asking whether or not sentinel is going to be in 'future updates' in AD too, because sentinels laser projectiles has totally different timing than bob has, and that makes the player actually change tactics which makes gameplay more refreshing. But that is just my opinion.

I don't know whether or not, but are those base type troopers/soldiers which are in AD, originally from Quoth? 
I don't know whether or not, but are those base type troopers/soldiers which are in AD, originally from Quoth?
Many of them are.

Centurion is from Rubicon 2.

Actually, this one is among the monsters that were present in Quoth, but weren't (and likely won't be) added to AD. 
Concept Arts Available? 
Are they actually making concept arts for us to see? After that modeling/texturing + everything needed to make new enemies. Just wondering 'cause I care about feel of 'real' Quake as well as you do. And Quake content creators should keep the focus on Lovecraft's content if that creates seamless monsters? 
Would have been perfect for this map! 
Centurion Rules 
Quake has several themes, Lovecraftian horror is only one of them. I felt that AD has more improvements for the medieval setting, with the techbase setting being a close second, while "otherwordly" creatures were simply borrowed from Quoth (with a few omissions even).

It wasn't a point that was going to prove that Quoth is better or something, I was merely saying that it still has its own identity, even though a lot of its content was borrowed by AD. 
Seamlessness Is Another Matter 
In this case it's a matter of execution of the assets rather than their theme. 
Hit-scan Enemies Good Or Bad For Quake? 
Original quake only had one hit-scan enemy which was grunt*

I'm not saying that I especially like hit-scan enemies, but it sure adds a lot to the gameplay. And that must be one of the reasons why many mappers & even plutonia experiment used in doom "Heavy weapon dude" a lot, because it was really dangerous at close-range. Hit-scan enemies makes the prioritizing harder, because in most cases you have to deal with them first.

Grunt in Quake is just so weak that is barely even treat to player ever, am I right? 
I was referencing doom 2 actually, Heavy weapon dude was one of the new enemies in doom 2. 
Unless you're low on health, or there's a whole bunch of them. 
Had a good burst going in but got wrapped up with other things in life and now am on vacation. I'd still like to try and finish even if the level is super short. Did the deadline get extended? 
Deadline is~ tomorrow, but ionous said that it doesn't matter if.. couple hours are off or something like that, hopefully he makes it more clear than I do. 
Deadline is tomorrow. 
Have to say, that if there is only 4 entries (4 maps), is that kind of small compared to earlier jams? Or do people like more medieval/outer world themes* 
Well it's going to be tight, and chopped to bits, but I may be able to finish something by tomorrow night after all. No promises, but I'm in a groove and things are moving along.

Two things, if I may:

First, another FGD update, fixing the display of spawnflags for info_command and trigger_command. Jack's current method of combining classes prevents the spawnflags from being merged, so manual intervention was necessary.

Second, a question for Quake engine experts: is there a way to save and restore the value of a console variable?

I'm targeting Quakespasm with my map, but I also decided to test in Darkplaces, and noticed a strange physics problem in that engine. Some research led me to a DP console variable that will solve the problem, and I can use Quoth's info_command_spawn to fire the command when the map starts. The physics will behave in Darkplaces, and in Quakespasm the command will simply have no effect.

Unfortunately that will override users' settings for the rest of their session unless I change it back, so when the map ends I'd like to set the variable back to whatever it was before I changed it. It's easy enough to set the variable to 0 on map spawn, then to 1 right before you exit, but if a player has, for example, set the variable to 0 themselves in their autoexec I don't want to change that.

I thought about maybe firing an info_command that ran "exec quake.rc; exec config.cfg; exec autoexec.cfg" to make sure the engine and player settings are all restored, but I don't know if that's a complete list of the necessary scripts (would I need default.cfg in there somewhere too?), the right order in which to execute them, or if the whole idea is just too heavy handed.

Is it possible to do something like what I'm after, or should I just set the variable and forget about it? Or, alternatively, forget about Darkplaces? I don't use the engine myself, but I'd hate to just abandon support for it if I don't have to. 
quake.rc itself runs default.cfg, config.cfg, and autoexec.cfg (in that order). 
It also runs commands specified at the command prompt, so beware. 
Which DP cvar?

Most should default to quake compatible physics since 2013-03-01, see that news post on:
Maybe confirm you don't have an old DP config lying around that isn't the current default.

I wouldn't exec quake.rc in a map.. for one, it'll re-execute any command-line arguments with the + prefix, so it might jump out of your map if quake was launched with "quake.exe +map xxx".

Setting the cvar and forgetting it seems OK, or just ask ionous to add it to the jam's quake.rc maybe? 
+map, jesus, I was asking myself "What did dwere mean by 'beware'?" Thank you both for the info and warnings!

Sorry to have left out the details, it's sv_gameplayfix_nogravityonground that seems to be the issue. Darkplaces defaults to having that disabled, but Quoth 2.2 apparently enables it to work around some sort of problem with "BSP model collisions", as mentioned by Preach in this exchange.

I have a downward moving lift in my map, and with that cvar enabled you bounce as it moves down, and slide around if it moves diagonally, even at a comfortably slow pace. Disabling it again fixes the problem. Of course then I'm mucking with Quoth's defaults, which I don't love either. 
Light started crashing... any ideas what can cause that? 
What does the console says? 
Problem Is It Doesn't Say Anything, It Just Crash... 
Try Doing It Again? 
If I could remember, I managed to make Light.exe to crash earlier but I don't remember what occurred it. Is the Light.exe what is crashing while compiling? 
Light Crashes 
feel free to email me the .bsp and light.exe command-line args and I will look into it.

alternatively try this binary (source code) which has a few crash fixes over 0.15.5. 
Ok ericw, I managed to fix this. I made one side of the wall SKIP by accident and I had some weird leak that wasn't detected before.

So as usual, user error - main cause of problems ;D

Thanks anyway. 
Is This Critical Or Not? 
I have no Errors but 2 warnings occurred, console says something like: Warning CutNodePortals_r: New portal was clipped away near (xyz position).

I checked that area.. and near that are was indeed one complex geometry.. but even though putting everything in grid and making sure there should be only integer values.. but that place hasn't give me any bugs or anything while testing so I guess that is not that critical? I will fix it later.. if I can figure out what causes it. 
Check this:

That issue is not critical at all and quite common, you can have many and the map runs.

As it is a jam and you are quite limited by time, my advice is for you to ignore them except if you gather quite the number, if the map isn't much advanced or if you can identify the brush with the coordinates easily. 
2 Quick Questions 
1. How do I check triggers 'on' after picking for example gold key?

2. How episodegate works, just quickly wondering because I'm made episodegate.. endgate whatever ever, hopefully it's laughable easy to make. 
I meant to say "I haven't made episodegate ever" 
Quoth Bible 
Thanks, I just love these wall of text documents* sometimes I just don't have enough patient to read all of it especially when tired - but I will get it one try. 
The thing is that, I'm not good at understanding too theoretically spoken english, because it's not my native language and I'm struggling with it every day.

So it is not info_logic_inopen because it talks about gates or something. 
Okay I haven't read documents but only logical thing that comes to my tiny head is that.. I can set whatever trigger type "off" by using spawnflags, right? Then giving it targetname "ActivateMePlease".. and when I pick up key, key has target "ActivateMePlease", hopefully it works because that is only logical thing that comes to my mind right now. 
I worry that you don't really want an episode gate in your map. They are used to mimic the walls that appear in the Quake start map when you complete an episode. So they are only useful to block routes if a player visits a different map and then comes back to yours. Maybe it's best if you outline what you're planning and we can advise if you need an episodegate or an alternative class.

For activating triggers, what you want is a logic gate. For the following explanation, I will suppose that the trigger opens a door, and you only want the trigger to do that if the gold key has been collected.

Step 1: Create a small sealed box outside the rest of the map.

Step 2: Insert an info_logic_inopen into the box. Modify the targets and targetnames so that the trigger targets the info_logic_inopen and the info_logic_inopen targets the door. At this stage, the trigger should still open the door at all times.

Step 3: Encase the info_logic_inopen. Create a func_wall inside the box so that the info_logic_inopen is completely embedded within it. After this step, you should find the trigger stops opening the door.

Step 4: Killtarget the func_door. Set the gold key entity to killtarget the func_door. This will occur when the key is collected. Now, the trigger should begin working as soon as the key is collected but not before. 
CutNodePortals_r warnings are usually ignorable as long as you don't see any actual problems. A common cause is multiple brushes intersecting at very acute angles.

If it bugs you, try turning part of the complex brush work into a func_wall (as long as it's not needed to seal the map).

You don't need an episode gate. 
Thanks Preach*

And yes, episodegate is not what I'm wanting.. just the simple exiting the map - mapgate or something.. and intermission is.. end camera right? 
Trigger_Changelevel for the exit of the map.

Info_intermission is the camera view at the stats screen. If you populate the message key you will get an outro akin to E1M7 
I have to go to sleep now, and tomorrow is still for me jamming time, right? I'm dead tired right now - I have no time to make the last epic battle scene - so it's just going to be door opens, you see deep dark hallway - you walk into it and the level ends. I'm sure everyone has multiple hordes in map, and I barely even has one. 
That's all there is going to be, tomorrow goes for scripting mostly, playtesting and adjusting lights. 
You don't have to have a big battle at the end. Pretty sure most vanilla quake maps just fade into darkness. 
I'm Out Of Time And Energy... But Still Going. 
Screenshot 01 - I have to change this cables texture... looks shitty now. 
Trick for setting up an info_intermission.

Turn on noclip and go find a view you like.

enter in console:

it prints a string of numbers like:

(1104 -370 530) 8 275 0

The numbers in parenthesis are your position.
The numbers following are your "mangle" (pitch yaw roll) 
Nice Thanks! 
Last Day! 
I am getting pretty worn out with this map, which is probably a good thing. Same feeling when I was finishing Horse Named Quake so I know the end is nigh.

I was even able to get one external completely (non-quaker) to test the map and it was with pretty decent results.

I just need to make a run through on all skills and verify I can reach start to finish without any horrendous bugs. If time allows, I may make adjustments to small things but map playability is the biggest concern now.

I will be submitting my map and its files to Ionous this evening! 
Oh, and good morning for everybody it's 01:12PM for me now >_>; sleeping rhythm is messed up.. but anyway it's last day.

Thanks you very much, haven't had moment to create intermission camera yet so that speeds up it so much.

There is going to be hard for me to figure out Hard mode, 'cause even normal mode is meant to be a bit tight when it comes to ammunition, and if adding eddies and more stronger enemies if increases the need for more bullets so much* 
That room looks like a really big trap, it gives that feeling pretty well, and I like it.

It doesn't matter if there is only few maps.. but everyone doing their best that's only that matters really* 
I tried that.. but my intention was a little different actually. Is it possible to make block calls through info_logic_inopen by sealing them inside brush func_wall and then activating them by killing that brush func_wall? 
I Simple Don't Get It 
I want to make some of the triggers not be triggered until player picks the gold key/enters first time control room.

My intention is to activate triggers ready for backtracking route 'same route you passed earlier', those triggers aren't delayed or triggered immediately, but are ready for the "backtracking". 
I tried to put info_logic_inopen inside func_wall and by killing that func_wall let the trigger be triggered.. but it didn't do that.. only if I don't seal it, but then it is still "on".

I didn't understand what sealed box meant, so I made sealed box like room and places info_logic_inopen there, but it worked same way with or without being inside box. 
Please don't say I didn't use the right func_wall.. so there is func_togglewall as well.. 
Sorry making wall of text guys but, Yeah that was the problem this time >_>; 
But now I'm just wondering how to make actual trigger "off" especially if the trigger is trigger_once. Even though it might not now send that call, it still registers when player touches it and the ambush/attack will never happens. 
Don't Feel Bad 
Push comes to shove, you are in search for answers.

I wanted a few instances where a trigger was "disabled" until later in the map. I ended up making workarounds to get the result I wanted as I did not want to invest the time into playing with the logic gates.

Good luck to you! 
But that's the best part of the map >_>;; 
Help Please? 
I really hope there is answers somewhere, I have been trying to undertand that Quoth bible more and more but deadline comes closer and closer. 
Could you make the Trigger_Once a Trigger_Multiple?

Have the trigger "closed" and then triggered to "open" once you collect the key. Once the player activates the trigger, close it again. 
Multiple Or Onlyregistered? 
I just starting trying that ; )

But I'm sure there will be some complications if trigger activates lifts, traps and so on. Unless I kill the trigger right after activating it.. but if it's func_train (ambush) I how that opening wall don't open and just closes immediately ^^;;

What does onlyregistered means btw? 
I hope* that opening wall don't open and just closes immediately 
Don't worry about that trigger.

Basically used for the shareware version of Quake that would fire off to separate the full version versus the demo.

Yes, that would be what you would want to do. Kill the trigger or close it when it fires off. Even if it triggers a moving func_platform...once it is triggered it will continue to do its func thing. 
1. Pickup gold key -> send call to target(s) "GoldKeyAlerd".

2. info_logic_inopen is inside func_togglewall.
func_togglewall targetname is same "GoldKeyAlert".

3. trigger targets info_logic_inopen inside that func_togglewall. info_logic_inopen targets my func_train trap.

4. I duplicate same info_logic_inopen and set it to target new trigger_delay. Because trigger_delay seems to be able to killtargets.

5. triggere_delay kill that trigger_multiple.. all that should happen in same game logic loop whatever. 
And hopefully this works.. 
Sorry I was in hurry a lots of typos, hopefully you at least the idea of what I'm trying out ^^; 
in a hurry*
get the idea* >_> 
Triggered Funcs 
Func_plat - once triggered any further triggerings have no affect.
Func_train - same
Func_togglewall - toggles with each targetting
Func_wall - activates with each targetting
Func_door - if wait > -1 then door will open close after wait and can be retriggered to open again
if wait == -1 then door will only open once
if wait == -1 && flag for "toggle" is set, then door will toggle from open to close to open to close to etc. with each targetting. 
Yes, it works with multiple and probadly also kills the target after using those relays to kill triggers after using them. 
Do you set some of the track to play on background? 
How do you set* 

Key: sounds
value: number of track desired.

If you are using the original NiN music then entering 6 would play the standard base theme. 
Sure, I will use the original Quake soundtrack by NiN. 
Everything is almost done, just last playtest sessions, figuring out where to put clips if too much detail and.. good intermission camera spot.. and trigger_changelevel to "jam7_start", right? Do we need to send only bsp file? 
Stuff To Send 
Bsp file
Lit file (if using colored lighting)
Map file
Txt file if you'd like me to include it 
The old way of making a simple logic gate is to use a trigger_multiple that, instead of doing what you want, targets a spike shooter aimed at a shootable button, and the button actually does what you want.

Block the spikes from hitting the button with door or func_wall and either move the door or kill the wall when you're ready for the trigger>shooter>button chain to work. 
Bsp, lit and messy map file.. okay. 
By The way, what does that option in Light.exe "Level4" means, and in Vis is Extra4. 
I mean other way around.. Vis has level4 option and Light Extra4 
Light -extra4 -soft options are used on final compile for highest quality. Smooths the edges of the shadows to reduce the jagged stair step effect.

I don't know how much difference level 4 makes with vis. I don't think I ever used it for some reason. 
Level 4 Is Full Vis 
And is default in most compilers. 
Pretty certain that -soft is also on by default. 
Are you making the box outside the map hollow? That's what you need. If you're still having trouble, look at the step-by-step, and you'll notice that at the end of each step there's detail of what behaviour you should see. Do the steps in order, check for the behaviour, and report at which step you don't get the behaviour in the post. 
Everything is working like you described.. I don't anything wrong with the way I already did it. It's working. I don't know what you mean by 'hollow' I just placed that box outside of 'gameplay areas' where player or enemies never touch them or be even close to them. 
I don't see anything wrong with the way I already did it..*

so I guess I did it right, if it's working. 
Currently I'm just playtesting different skill levels. Is there much time left? 
How Is Everyone Doing? 
Just wondering. 
Final touches, and making my text document! 
Should be able to start in 2-3 hours. Need to build exit, finish entities for final third of map. I be finishing the final compile around the time the deadline strikes. 
My Grammar Sucks 
Could you or someone help me with the read me then? My english isn't that great, and time to time it can be a little difficult for native english people to understand me. 
I'm finishing too, should be ready in next 4-5h 
I Took A Little Pause/break Now. 
About 1-2 hours, I got massive headache because of my shoulder pain I guess. After that couple more playtest rounds and that's about it. 
Just state English isn't your native language. There are numerous mappers here of different origins!

Just do what you can! :) 
I hope people will not shoot me, because of my grammar. 
I Wouldn't Worry About It 
Just do the best you can.

Anyone else out there close to finishing? 
Yes, Actually 
It's going to be close, but I think I'll have something by the deadline (3AM my time, thank god for time zones). Unless of course something goes horribly wrong now that I've said that.

My map won't win any game design contests, that's for sure, but I think it's fun for a couple minutes, and it is technically base themed and involves pipes, so I can't not try to finish. 
I believe I'm the only one that doesn't use pipes visually.. well if you look down you can find some kind of pipes. I was focusing more on cold theme.. and there wasn't even enough time for me to include water as an element. And only room that had bigger visible pipes, I have to cut out.. because the main gameplay was more important for me. 
Submission Sent 
I have emailed you Ionous.

Hopefully everything was packaged correctly but please let me know if you need something from me!

Thank you all for the opportunity, was quite a challenge! I hope you enjoy what I have created. 
What was the email address where this submission should go? 
voice DOT of DOT the DOT nephilim @ gmail DOT com 
hmmm... why enemies are shooting through the doors? 
Now, everything is sent now - I included two images to chose from.. if those are needed. 
Ok just one last test playthrough and I'm doing final build. 
I sent you my map :) 
Ionous, the past thirty-six hours flew by faster than I'd expected, and a few (read: a bunch of) last minute issues cropped up that have delayed my work. It's my own fault for not getting my act together sooner, but I'm so close and I'd hate to let this map go to waste.

I only have a few things left to do, would you be willing to accept a map after the deadline if you have it in your inbox by morning? 

This also applies to anyone else there close to completion. 
And good morning, how's everyone doing? Still jamming? 
Good Morning 
My submission was sent and I am not playing my map anymore to ensure I don't have any regrets!

I am glad there is leniency on the deadline. The deadline is there for a reason, but if it is the difference between not having an extra map and having one then stretch it! 
So Hopefully Everything Is Almost Flawless* 
I sent one update that only moved one pop message trigger to its right position, but other than that I believe it's good to go.

I didn't even touch the easy mode, I have no regrets anyway. 
Though there is one part of the map, where player can make decision to jump down using shortcut before pressing all the buttons and then player need to restart the level...

But I assume almost 99% of people will press all of them.. because why wouldn't you.. I'm not saying that player make stupid moves.. it's always the level designers fault.. I don't how to even make that logic to work that it feels right.. forcing it to open "the last" felt weird.. but anyway, hopefully nobody need to restart the level. 
I have to fix that quickly.. I just put one block there and kill it when important actions are made. 
And now that one "map breaking" issue is fixed and sent. 
Fine Tuning 
I am going to resend my text document as it has some errors plus I want to expand on the level design process section. Since Ionous is flexible with updates I figure it is safe.

I will not run my map until the jam releases however! That is set in stone! 
I would re-balance few things in my map, but as I mentioned in my e-mail, it's better to leave it as it is. Otherwise we will extend deadline forever :D

DLC confirmed... 
Agreed, as I have said I will not look at my map until release. I am content with my submission.


I did send you a dropbox invite link for my updated text document. Please confirm when you receive that! That will be my last update until release!

Will be great to see a future DLC release! 
Ididn't touch anything else except one part where player might fall down and never get up back to one button, which opens door that is important part of basic progress yet player can't get uo and need to restart and play whole 1/3 of the map again. So I only fixed that. 
All Aboard, Cries The Engineer 
Another forty-eight hour plus crunch time mapping session and I'm finished. I should stop doing this to myself, but I had a bunch of new toys to play with and I couldn't help myself.

Hope you guys like the map! Getting myself all hyped up for everyone else's. 
So bloughsburgh, if there is something that might put your player in situation where only choice is to restart or are very important.. that player simple don't have enough stuff in order to survive.. those are quite critical things and should be fixed.. anything else is not that important, am I right ionous? 
No Restarts 
Nothing would force a restart as far as I am aware.

I would say in terms of play testing, it is critical to make sure the player can not get stuck under any circumstances. Not stuck as in puzzled but as in literally unable to proceed. 
You can get stuck in my map, with no ammo etc. but it's because I introduced some specific, experimental gameplay mechanic.

btw. I realized I would like to add few things to README too! 
I found yesterday couple of them, place clip brushes over them.. I also put it in pillars which player mashes his head constantly ^^; 
By stuck I meant being out of ammo and with no chances to survive :D 
I play tested normal and hard mode.. made sure that player haa enough ammunition if player plays well.. by that I mean no 50-70% misses. And try to save cells.. or even try to find all 3 secret silver keys.. It is experimental map as well. My principle was.. 3 is more than just 2. 
Hopefully that jam7_start map has skill select room? 
experimental gameplay mechanic

Oooh I am intrigued to see what this exactly entails!

Ionous is creating a start map I believe, so yes it would. 
You pretty much couldn't finish my Jam 6 map on skill 2 with 100% kills unless you also found the one secret. I consider that a design flaw, but eh, hard is hard. 
My Map Has Skill 0-3 In One... 
Isn't skill 3 = nightmare mode? Are enemies respawning in that mode? 
Nightmare In Quake 
Nightmare in Quake isn't quite as crazy as Doom. No respawning monsters, just more relentless AI - faster reactions, higher rate of fire, feeling less pain.

Older versions of Quoth had an issue where the new monsters weren't very well differentiated between nightmare skill and regular skill levels. I particularly remember an oversight where a monster went into pain animations more often in nightmare because his threshold was so high. The most recent patch attempts to redress this, and increase the contrast. Mostly by nerfing monster AI, although there were a few that we boosted in nightmare instead (like Rocketeers). 
So I've received four maps from people (thanks for sending them in). My own poor contribution is also done.

I, however, did not have time to finish the start map, which I would like to include. After polling the entrants, they were fine with me finishing it off. So I'll be doing that today and tomorrow, aiming for an early Sunday release.

With that in mind, if anyone else there wants to finish up their map, they would be welcome to do so. I will accept submissions up until whenever I finish the start map. 
Can't wait! 
It Will Be Good 
There really is no hurry, spend as much time as needed* 
Screw Start Maps 
We have to remember not every player is even that familiar with console commands* 
So is Skacky going to be also in (if he has time), that would be great! 
so it seems we're still fixing yet balancing our maps? I just want to make sure, because that's how I understood it, until the sunday or when ionous gets start map finished. 
Yeah I have to fix ammo crates because they are fullbright in dark rooms... Any clue how to fix this? 
Nope, not going to be in. 
Brushwork crates or ammo pickups? If pickups, remember they take their lighting mostly from the first solid surface below. So if they sit in the dark on a func_wall or something and the floor down below is bright, they will be bright too. 
#543 - Yeah Ammo Pickups 
It's in a fully dark room. doors and buttons are dark, but ammo pickup laying on the floor is fullbright... maybe there is some leak or something? But compiler doesn't cry about any. 
Ammo pickups are external bsp files and as such, will always be fullbright.

Quoth has an option to make ammo and health use a common combined model, which then takes lighting from the lightmap. 
Thanks. Looks like aflag 1 in a worldspawn fixed the problem. 
Skacky really is the worst cocktease around these parts! On the plus side, this means there's a chance for an addon pack where even good ol' useless Daz and negke can join... 
But isn't it good thing that they're full bright gameplay-wise? 
#548 - In My Map Case, No! 
You like to hide them, i see ; ) 
Judging by their placement in my map, the fullbright effect on ammo and heath boxes was something I learned years ago and then stopped remembering.

I guess only the rotating items and monsters take their lighting from the lightmap? 
MDL models are lit. They also typically rotate when they're for pickups, although it's technically unnecessary (it's a model property).

BSP models are fullbright and can't rotate.

Sprites (SPR) also can't be lit, but I'm yet to see a sprite pickup in this game. 
BSP Boxes Can Be Rotated 
Sprites are shit in Quake for anything that isn't light globes. 
I know their placement can be rotated but can they be made to spin constantly like weapons and armor? 
I Dunno 
You could try the trick I posted in #299. 
Even Light Globes Look Out Of Place 
So more like only for explosions.

And bubbles. 
So I quess that's it.. we're close to finished everything? ^^; 
Looks Like It! 
I literally eager to see other people maps yet to play them on hard more... after normal of course ;) 
I'm*.. hard mode*.. had a another headache after my Sauna, it sure is hot, but it doesn't do good on your shoulder pain - that much I can say. 
It Is Done. 
Just waiting for moderator approval. 
Looking forward for it. 
skacky better finish his damn map anyway! 
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