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Retro Jam 4: Episode 4 Released. Boo!
Retro Jam 4 is a pack of eight Elder World themed, old school designed levels created just in time for All Elders Day. Err...

Thanks to everyone who took part in this spontaneous mapping outburst:

ericw
FifthElephant
ItEndsWithTens
PuLSaR
Scampie
skacky
Text_Fish
Zwiffle

Screenshot Gallery
DOWNLOAD (7.43 MB)
Neat! 
 
Really Fun Pack 
Awesome 
Twitch Stream Of The Jam 
 
Zwiff... the end of the demo for my map was funny with the voreball bouncing in and out of the shamblers ass. 
 
Balls bouncing in and out of Shambler's arse, you say? 
Why Does Kinn Always Show Up When There's Talk Of Shambler's Ass? 
 
Did Someone Say Kinn's Ass? 
 
Brutal And Atmospheric Jam! 
Minor spoilers below

Ericw: Very intense and brutal, especially on the lowest floor. The upper part was really fun tho.

Fifth: Nice little map. I think spawns were underused here comparing to other maps. It was not that brutal apart from the final battle where shamblers got my ass kicked 4 times in a row until I realised that bridge was my partner and a savior.

Scampie: It was a very well planned map for a speedmap. It has its own idea that is well executed and plays fast and fun.

Skacky: I was always impressed how you could make big maps in such a tiny period of time. Large and vertical map as always with some really cool combat sections.

ItEndsWithTens: This map felt like episode 4 meets doom or wolf to me. Maze-like almost 2d layout that felt confusing at first but turned out pretty obvious in the end. The combat was slower that in most other maps, facing one enemy at a time mostly. The moment when light turns out was superb!! A+ for it.

Text_Fish: I really loved the way this map plays with all those moving platforms, cages, teleporters and other things. I would like to see a proper map of that kind in future.

Zwiffle: Nice looking little map with fancy colored lighting and lack of ammo. Make something bigger next time!

Overall it's a pretty nice map pack with a mixed size and quality of maps, though every map is very atmospheric and enjoyable.
10 spawns out of 10. 
Spawned In 
Y'all enjoyed the excuse to use spawns in your maps, didn't you...

retrojam4_ericw

Had a false start where a spawn held me under the lava by the sliver key trap. The whole level had a manic feel generated by all the powerups. I cocked up the stealth section (a nice echo of a classic Pain Maze moment) by not hitting a spawn dead centre, but somehow managed to muddle through. Vital statistic: did 7450 points of quad damage

retrojam4_fifth

This time a spawn did me a huge favour by finding the yellow armour secret, I did figure out the lightning gun myself (eventually). The SNG ambush was effective, the construction means you don't want to sidestep the trap by foregoing the gun. A big long water passage was another nice nod to E4's "special" features, so what else could the vital statistic be than my longest swim: 15 seconds underwater.

retrojam4_pulsar

"You have found a secret spawn" was hilarious, the map was filled with iconic E4 locations, but rebuilt with much greater skill. Combat had a nice ramping up effect, with very sparse, lonely corridors at first and a frantic ending. I didn't notice the pent or the extra nails until it was too late, which would have made that battle much easier. Vital statistic: I turned 18 vorepods against attacking enemies.

retrojam4_scampie

It's nice how a retrojam lets you do a map which would be annoyingly gimmicky in long doses, but works great in miniature. This time I did not screw up the stealth section, and took revenge on the fiends with axe-murdering glee. Didn't dare kill the spawns though, so no 1005 kills. Vital statistic: 100% melee damage baybee!

retrojam4_skacky

A extensive and pretty tough map, the long vertical climbs reminded me of The Nameless City. Loads of visual interest up in the ceilings (although I couldn't figure how to get the quad suspended up there. I like the way that combats would escalate as reinforcements came in just before you'd finished off the previous wave. Vital statistic: Managed to off 10 Shamblers without taking damage from them, although finding the pent secret before the pit fight was a big help, so maybe those ones shouldn't count : - ).

retrojam4_tens

A map which mashes takes the gloomy feel of the Hell's Atrium basement, and combines it with a set-piece from Azure Agony. The gloom also gave the map it's best ambush, with the lights out spawn attack which was very well choreographed to be scary and threatening but not at all unfair. I found the secret lightning gun but couldn't survive the swim, I guess I needed to find my way to the biosuit first. Vital Statistic: Shamblers did 56 dmg to me, 50% of damage taken - particularly the one before the spawn ambush always managed to round the corner and nail me.

retrojam4_textfish

This map captures that E4 feeling of a strange world of which you must figure out the rules. The extending platforms from the Palace of Hate make much more sense over a slime trap. I liked how the combats tied into this by virtue of being dangerous due to the environment they occurred in, like battling a vore from atop a moving platform, so you had to leap for cover, or the fights in the cages. Vital statistic: In one particularly good run of combat I racked up 13 kills unscathed.

retrojam4_zwiffle

A map with a moody, Palace of Hate feeling, but on a rainy day, and some lovely rockfaces. The opening view did a great job of showing you all the important geography, with the coloured lighting drawing your eye to the sliver key door. I had to flee some of the later enemies as I ran out of ammo, but I felt like that may have been by design. I did manage to bate the shambler and grab the last box of shells without him touching me. Scariest moment came when the last spawn had me cornered, I only escaped because scrags spawned and distracted him just long enough, but they still scored the vital statistic of 88 damage. 
 
I haven't played the maps yet, but based on what I've heard of mine I feel I should say something.

HERE BE SPOILERS

In my defense, the lightning gun in my map is not meant to be a trap, or a secret that punishes the player. I added a fiend to a secret area in my Jam 6 map, since I thought people playing on Hard would enjoy the challenge, but it was a poor decision and I wasn't trying to do anything like that here. This time it was just a terribly presented idea. The hope was players would see the length of the hallway, think "I can't make it there and back without drowning", and then remember the biosuit they'd seen earlier.

If I'd added a func_illusionary to the top of the lightning gun entrance, it would have helped to not only keep the secret secret, but I imagine also put players who ventured beyond it into the mindset of "tread lightly, you don't know what's down here", making them that much more likely to reconsider swimming for the gun. In my haste to get the timing down on the biosuit air supply, however, I managed to legitimately forget that func_illusionaries even existed. Adding more lights to the long hall would also probably have helped emphasize its length, through excessive repetition.

I only added that secret because I couldn't resist the temptation of creating some playful misdirection, by having a biosuit near a slime pit but intending it for use elsewhere. Nonetheless, surely it's left a bad taste in players' mouths, and it's a darling that should have been killed. I'm sorry if it seemed mean of me to put in there.

As for my texture scaling, well, that's for two reasons: one technical, of minimizing BSP chops, and the other artistic, of making the texture tiling less objectionable. The textures get less detailed, sure, but I'm one to paint in broad strokes, and I find the overall look of lower detail with reduced tiling preferable to the detailed but more repetitive result of leaving them all 1:1. Especially with a texture of giant stone blocks, I figured stone blocks that were 1.5 times giant-er wouldn't look too bad. I understand not everyone shares my preference, but for the record I wasn't poking fun at Mr. Petersen's aesthetic sensibilities. There's some lighthearted, friendly ribbing in my map for sure, but the textures weren't part of that. 
Awesome Pack 
amazed at what everyone did in such a short time! demos: http://www.quaketastic.com/files/demos/retrojam4_ericw_demos.zip 
Should I Pretend I'm Not Constantly Checking This Thread? 
Nah, screw it.

Eric, your demos taught me something about Quake! Apparently a trigger can be fired from the opposite side of an edge where two brushes meet. That door with the "opens from the other side" message isn't supposed to open just by walking into the darkened alcove; the corner of the alcove happens to meet the corner of the trigger in the adjacent room.

Glad to see my map doesn't completely fall apart in cases like that! Also like that you stumbled into my little E4M3 tribute at the exit. :) 
Haha 
Yeah, at first I thought I hit a secret switch in that alcove, but then I re-read the message and realized it was probably a bug. Sorry, I should have tried looking for the proper route in the next demo, but for some reason I kept redoing the exploit route ;).
Anyhow, enjoyed your map a lot!

It was especially fun in this retrojam to notice all of the references to specific details e4 maps that people put in. Love those underneath-lit staircases. 
 
Love those underneath-lit staircases.

Me too, so much. 
Some Quick Skill 2 Demos 
I tried all of the maps and recorded skill 2 demos. Some maps I didn't want to finish because I didn't feel like fighting a lot of spawns or miscellaneous hordes. Apologies to mappers who download my demos only to find I give up too easily! I do complete several of the maps also.

In Fifth's map, if I remember right, it took several tries to get past a certain trap without taking too much damage, so I ended up not recording all the attempts. There's a small skip between two demos because of this.

I hope I didn't screw up the demos in any other way while recording them. Here they are:

http://www.quaketastic.com/files/demos/retrojam4-demos-pekka.7z

Recorded with the newest Quakespasm on Windows and packaged with 7-Zip.

Thanks to all the mappers who took part and Onetruepurple for organizing the Retrojam. People got the E4 vibe down very well in many ways. 
Custom Derper Imminent 
Well I'll Be Damned 
Daz beat my map on skill 2. Without dying once. 
The Bots Are Getting Weird. 
Awesome Pack! 
demos of most of my runs (Missed a few, sorry! They are in my stream vod that will be on my youtube channel in a bit)

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/33279452/daz_retrojam4_demos.zip

So good to get a whole bunch of levels that really scratch the "actually hard on hard skill" itch.

I have no idea how I survived Skacky's level.

Fantastic turn out! Thanks to everyone who went and mapped! :) 
Thank All Of You... 
...getting my arse kicked on these is fun! Tens, awesome! 
Wow 
What a fun-packed pack! Many thanks to everybody who made and played, and especially OTP for running it. Hoping the DLC comes true. :)

<href="http://www.text-fish.co.uk/mappingstuff/retrojam4_demos_tf.zip">here</a> are my terrible demos! I forget to quicksave, so there is a lot of repetition, especially in Skacky's map which repeatedly kicked my arse! I also included a 100% nightmare run on my map, for anybody who's curious about the RoS secret, as I've yet to see anybody get to it.

I was going to pick a favourite but I actually can't, they all thoroughly entertained me in different ways. :) 
^a 
 
Avoid URL Troubles 
Text_Fish: you can avoid URL troubles by just directly putting the link to your post and letting the board software make it a link. Like so:

http://www.text-fish.co.uk/mappingstuff/retrojam4_demos_tf.zip 
 
I haven't played all the maps (properly) yet, but I just wanted to express my appreciation for Fifth's map - this actually feels like Romero guest-authored an E4 map, and the unused id textures really make it something special. 
Spot On 
this actually feels like Romero guest-authored an E4 map 
Ah Cool, Thanks Primal! :) 
 
All... 
...unplayabley awful, apart from Scampie's. Skacky's and Pulsar's looked nice, at least the brief bits I saw. 
Ayy Lmao 
 
Shambler Sucks 
lol 
^ This 
Overall I enjoyed all the maps tremendously and have a hard time picking a favorite. The most memorable is perhaps Scampie's. Some comments on the maps (with demos later)

ericw: One of the most E4 of the pack. Really damn difficult on skill 3, very entertaining and anus-clenching situations (especially on the lower floor). I even had to axe a Shambler at one point! Short and sweet.

Fifth: It indeed felt like Romero guest-authored an E4 map now that I think about it! Really enjoyed that one as well. It has some really hidden secrets. I especially liked the slight elevation differences with stairs keeping the rooms fresh, and the SNG ambush was top notch.

Pulsar: Great. I really liked the re-interpreted areas, especially E4M4's. The end fight was really really difficult but entertaining. I'd love to see it expanded even more, especially how you interpret E4M7.

Scampie: What if Sandy took acid while designing Episode 4? Excellent map with a fun twist. Had me laughing really hard, especially the end.

Skacky: Gonna comment on my own map for once. The base idea was to make a map without using Ogres nor Hell Knights at all. I had a list of things I wanted to do (start with an SSG+Quad arena, mash-up E4M6 and E4M8's pits of doom, have a healing pool, have an E4M5 retracting teleporter, have an unholy altar, etc). I also wanted to fuck with the players a bit; for instance, the first arena is better beaten by not fighting in it at all but retreating with the Quad in hand, especially when the 3 Shamblers spawn on Skills 2/3). I also wanted to blow off some steam and go crazy with the encounters, the amount of Tarbabies, the monsterjumps and the monster teleports, since most E4 maps are really over the top. I think I mostly succeeded even if the map is really fucking hard and sometimes a bit unfair.

Tens: Excellent. Loved this one, although the layout was a bit confusing and probably needed some func_walls with arrows to guide the player, spawning/despawning once you accomplish tasks, etc. Other than that it was really neat and a joy to play. I LOVED the room that went dark with Tarbabies in cages, that will stick as one of the most memorable moments in the pack.

TextFish: Enjoyable as well, if a bit unfair at times. The terracotta bit is by far the best part of the map imo, with really well designed encounters and gimmicks that kind of reminded me of E4M8.

Zwiffle: The hardest on skill 3. Loved the aesthetic, and the yellow lights against the rock look pretty cool actually. The 'Tarbaby cave' as I call it killed me several times. The hidden Tarbaby had me laughing out loud when I watched it on Daz's stream. 
Thanks For The Compliments 
I really appreciate it. It's one of my most favourite maps I've made to be honest. Making the thing is almost a blur since I bashed it together so quickly. 
 
All unplayabley awful, apart from Scampie's.

The highest fucking praise I'll ever get from Shambler. 
Slapstick Plug 
So i was preparing ox cheeks for dinner, because they are tasty and all that. Chopping veggies, dreaming.. I chopped into my finger and thumb, hell i saw the blade goin right into them.

No time to loose, ox cheeks required my attention, i spray-glued and taped my cuts, the food, the food!

Disabled like that i managed to burn my other hand with the hot oven 10 minutes after i cut myself.

Swearing like a russian sailor i did complete the meal, tasted fine.

My hands are now taped/swollen, can't even type proper at the moment.

I want to play these maps badly, what i saw on twitch.tv (erics and pulsars map i think) looked awesome and brutal.

But for now they have to wait.

All hail OTP!

Go map! 
Mfx 
That was one wild ride you just took me on. 
Zwiffle 
Mfx 
That sounds like a very Quakey meal - both in the ingredients and in your preparation technique. 
Get Well Soon Mfx 
 
O.O 
Best wishes, mfx. Get well soon. 
So Far, I've Beaten Scampie's Map 
This pack is great fun, will take me some time to beat all maps. 
#skacky 
Daz beat my map on skill 2. Without dying once.

Fascinating. And if you DON'T get the second Pent secret????? 
Lol Mfx 
best part, food tasted fine. 
Tens 
Ok, Tens' map is the most E4 of the lot. In fact, it's more E4 than E4 itself. It's pure, distilled E4 and if someone told me that it was an original map that was cut for whatever reason, then I would believe them.

Not sure about the random scaling of textures though. 
Shambler 
You can survive the arena without taking it. 
So Scampie 
How the bloody 'ell does that teleport twist hack work? 
Oh 
you can fuck with the "roll" of the player view angles when teleporting. I never knew that! 
 
Have you never played that SM map with the angled door?! 
Nope Wassat? 
 
There Was One Speedmap 
That had you walking on the walls, briefly. 
Right 
I never bothered playing speedmaps. Seemed a bit of a low signal-to-noise ratio with those chaps. 
That Scampie's Angled Teleporter 
was the second wow moment of this jam. I walked 3 or 4 times there just to enjoy that effect.
The first wow moment for me was Tens' "lights off and spawn sounds nearby". I was sure that quake maps could not scare me anymore. But I was wrong.

I love surprises in quake maps (if they don't insantly kill you). I hope to see more sudden things like those in quake maps in future. 
A Lot 
Of wacky ideas all cool stuff was explored though - Negke's stuff comes to mind. 
Nothing New Under The Sun. 
Many thanks to Daz and Elgu for streaming and showing the skills:)

Nightmare 100% on Red Hatred:
http://quaketastic.com/files/demos/retrojam4_skacky_nm100_paru.zip

Playthrough on nightmare in two parts with loading a save before the pit:
http://quaketastic.com/files/demos/retrojam4_skacky_nm_nosecrets_paru.zip

Shambler, you could also choose not to jump down into the pit.

The effect in Scampie's can be found in the first 100brush competition: stamppot by zippie is the map.
https://www.quaddicted.com/reviews/100brush.html

Hard 100%demo on retrojam4_pulsar:
http://quaketastic.com/files/demos/retrojam4_pulsar_hard100_paru.zip

I recall what I read in the Nehahra thread:

#82 posted by HeadThump [65.140.53.229] on 2005/10/25 15:22:53

'Inside of every player is a masochist, inside of every mapper is a sadist, and most often they cohabitate in the same specimen --'

Inside Of Every Mapper Is A Sadist
#83 posted by PuLSaR [80.80.111.129] on 2005/10/25 16:17:03

'yeah it is' 
I Wonder 
why negke didn't make a map for this jam, considering his love to spawns.

So that makes me a spawn king of this jam =) 
 
Don't remember the session, must have been in the early 2000s. There was a angled door with fantasy (Alice?) textures iirc. 
100 Brush Map, In The First Pack 
Not a sm. 
 
 
Yep, that was the one.

All it takes is an 'angles' '0 0 -90' key on the teleport destination. Sadly it seems the view angle can only be tilted so much in either direction... But it does rotate monsters!

Originally the map was going to be 'just give the player all the powerups in the world', and I just had a shit ton of monsters and quads and pents and all 4 runes everywhere... but a tarbaby kept accidentally going into that teleporter and rotating which was absolute nightmare fuel. Also the map wasn't interesting at all, you need so much space for 'lots of powerups' to really work... so I changed it to be more of a small lowkey puzzle. 
Retrojam4_PuLSaR Easy Runs 
http://quaketastic.com/files/demos/rjam4_pulsar_easyruns_paru.zip
I think the second route should be faster, though much harder too.
The quad gj might be doable without the RA. It should be possible
to do it much farther from the exit, possibly off a fiend. 
Are We Certain That Tens Isn't French? 
 
Are We Certain That Parubaru's Second Route... 
...isn't just the same as the first route with a very slow Quad gj added? 
You're Right, It's Pretty Much The Same. Apologies. 
Also, my quad gj is very slow indeed.
However, taking the RA makes the beginning a bit slower, but the quad boost should more than compensate for it, I thought. Unfortunately I lack the skill to demonstrate it clearly. 
Less "My Tower Is An Eye Full" 
More "Yank My Doodle, It's a Dandy". My paternal grandfather's side of the family tree was Belgian, but that's the closest I've ever been to French. Sorry.

Hon hon hon. 
Honk Honk Honk. 
 
Parubaru 
Nice runs! I was wondering if anyone could find the GL secret. It requires some patience and ammo. It was added in the last minutes just for fun. 
@FifithElephant 
I don't know what's wrong with these people, your Sandy's Hollow is my favorite. Well paced, not crazy hard but challenging, enough variation and beautiful, very well finished.

The other one that striked me by the looks was Zwiffle's Shotgun Fornication. Moody atmosphere, very evil and well finished. Short, but fun.

Its same-episode brother is Textfish's The Wretched Alcazar. I liked Zwiffle's looks better, but this one has more fun gameplay.

About the demos... you don't wanna see them, it's embarassing. 
 
Overall comment, to make our jam host hate me even more: Tarbaby is a lame fucked up monster. Sorry. 
 
It's nice for the panic it induces in a player, but the outcome of a spawn encounter is just too random, and hitting them at the right time/at all is too based on luck, for me to see them as useful for anything other than the occasional comedy monster. Not without tweaking them. 
^ Exactly 
 
 
Thanks for the kind words adib.

As for spawns, I don't think they need to be serious. Quake was never pitched as a serious shooter, there's a dark humour in it that is quite unique. When placed correctly the spawn is fairly predictable, usually long corridors. In smaller rooms they are much less predictable.

The whole point of the SNG trap in my level was to do a "gotcha" on the player, this is the same with most of the monster placement in the map too. 
5th 
The nail traps helped me beat some monsters. I always try to use them. I wish I could use one as a turret, like a fixed cannon or chaingun. Some games have these. 
Textfish 
The Wretched Alcazar has no intermission camera. Just a heads up. 
Nought Wrong With Spawns 
Spawns are only as unfair as the designer who places them. Hell, after you hear their sight sound you have about 3 hours to shoot them before they even start moving.

Disagree about spawn combat being random. Just slap em with shotgun at distance and dodge them if close. 100% skill. 
That's Interesting. 
I didn't know that Spawn movement was predictable enough to reliably slap them with shotgun at distance and dodge them if close as a matter entirely of skill, certainly compared to Fiends. I always thought that Spawns had no indication of their facing so no indication where they were jumping until they actually did so.

Could you show some examples of this predictability and thus 100% skill -based tactics to dealing with them? 
Edit: 
Obviously I know full well they have a mouth thing. But that doesn't seem to reliably show their precise jump direction compared to a Fiend's facing. 
 
Could you show some examples of this predictability and thus 100% skill -based tactics to dealing with them?

I propose: a 100% demo of Fifth's map with no damage taken from Spawns. 
 
OTP, skill 0 run only please. 
Well. 
Not 100% and not no damage but I did it, and chances are it might be the best thing you watch tonight. 
 
Good work man. I can't even beat it myself, the tower room is brutal. 
So Yeah This Episode. 
I really liked the maps that were suitable to play through first go without any luck involved. Yeah, those ones.

JUST KIDDING.

Seriously though, it was a pretty damn good pack in it's style. Much kudos to all the mappers who managed to pull this lot out of their collective asses in a mere 4 days - very impressive turnout, and very impressive maps for the schedule. If only an extra day had been allowed for any form of playtesting, it would have been great.

E4 is a kinda odd theme (or lack thereof) and this shows in the variety of results. Some maps captured well the very E4-y bits (random corridors etc), some captured the OTT gameplay, some were just decent maps in their own right.

I think out of the pack, I like Pulsar's a lot with the combination of both a funky angled remake of E4 bits and fusing well-known bits of maps together, that was really fun popping out from a bit of E4Mx into a bit of E4My. I also liked Skacky's for the general and impressive high quality designs, it felt much more like a full proper map that someone had accidentally put a spawn pit in.

The others were mostly good but didn't stand out as much, perhaps because E4 isn't as catchy or immediately attractive as, say, "Rubicon / Metal / Zerstorer", so that semi-turtle maps don't have as a strong a hook in that theme.

GGWP all anyway. 
Retrojam4_fifth Skill 0 
 
I don't think anyone saying it CAN'T be done. A broken clock is right twice a day. They're saying it's not an act of skill as much as luck. 
 
 
:D I've beaten EricW's map yesterday.

And what I've learned playing those maps so far is: tarbabies are an *incomplete* challenge. They may seem broken, but that's because they're only complete when combined with proper placement and map geometry. They're the monster that immerses the map geometry into the combat the most.

Memorize their locations, plan escape routes, figure out the best spots from where to attack them on each situation, time your movement, and they become really fun to fight against.

If you fail, they become unpredictable; that's the punishment they give you, a punishment that's more consequential than the mere act of being hit or killed by a monster. 
Not Sure Why Everyone Is Going On About Fifth's Map?? 
Cos that is one of the easiest in the pack as regards tarbabies (out of my 3 play throughs I only got hit by one spawn, once). As regards running away from Shamblers and a Vore right into a nail trap and then almost certainly dying because you won't have enough health left after an over-long underwater journey and going through the nail trap the first time, it's a different deal, but that's not the issue at stake.

What I would like to see is someone quicksaving before the death pit in SKACKY's map, then doing that section, say, 5 times in a row without taking damage from the Spawn (other monster damage is fine). At least two of those occasions should be without triggering the 2 Shamblers on one side of the pit, and thus running out of Quad before facing them and the Spawn drop. Since fighting them is "100% skill" and apparently not "unpredictable", then it should be a repeatable process, right?? 
Finally Played The Pack! 
When I was done I briefly felt bad for not recording demos, and not being able to come up with any substantial, constructive criticism, but then I remembered the torture you horrible monsters had just put me through.

Have a Youtube playlist instead: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLoGPuWBXfT0clBFKhqqyg_VrZv7Mlsnef

The gist of my feelings is that each of you captured Episode 4 one way or another, whether gameplay, architecture, lighting, or some combination of all three; my inner masochist took a great deal of pleasure especially in all the smartass traps. Really impressive what people can come up with in only four days, and I'm honored to find myself in the company of such head cases. 
^ +1 
 
How Is Tarbaby Combat Not Skill? 
Yeah they jump around randomly. Deal with it. That's where your skill comes in. If it's at a distance, get your shotgun out and make use of the point-and-click functionality of your mouse.

If it's jumping into your face, time to eat those fucking crisps.*

I'm guessing the people who insist spawn combat is more about luck than skill are probably the same people that "suck" and are possibly also "lame".

* ("eat those fucking crisps" is what my rugby coach used to yell at us when he wanted us to run really fast. Apparently he saw the act of alternately raising one's hands during the running motion as vaguely reminiscent of someone eating potato-based snack products.) 
 
A creature that moves randomly without indication of what it's about to do is, inherently, a luck based opponent. 
Reminded Of This 
And Therefore... 
Warren's REKage of Kinn's so-called argument....looks like 100% skill to me. Or is it 100% common sense? One of the two anyway. 
But 
It's not random. Difficult to predict, but it always comes after you. The constant bouncing goes all over but you can learn pretty much what it's going to do in a given situation.

Lowering the health and damage in RRP made them a lot more palatable without taking away the challenge and style of the monster.

Making them pause after each jump spoiled their erratic nature a bit though. 
Further. 
Yes, dealing with a luck-based opponent requires skill to deal with the whatever that opponent throws at you (hitting you, exploding in face, etc). But what exactly that opponent throws at you in any given situation is not controllable by skill. 
So... 
"It's not random"

but...

"The constant bouncing goes all over"

"erratic nature"


...errrr?? Sounds random to me, homie.

Also if they weren't random and you could learn what they would do in a given situation, why would they need to be made more palatable? Surely if it's pure skill, then the health and damage is irrelevant as one can reliably use skill to outwit them?? 
Lol You Guys 
Just because a monster moves randomly doesn't mean the outcome of a fight against it is like rolling a dice.

Years ago spawns used to give me trouble. Now they give me hardly any trouble, does that mean I'm becoming a luckier player?

Watching otp's demo of fifth's map - he must be a pretty lucky player - he didn't even die once! Would you say he's luckier than the average player?

Shit - is anyone here anyone here gonna agree with me that there's an element of player skill involved? 
Lol You Gays 
Just because a monster is a luck-based opponent doesn't mean the outcome doesn't involve any skill.

Shit - is anyone here anyone here anyone here, errrr anyone at all going to point out the bleeding obvious that Kinn's non-argument is completely clouded by machismo and ego? 
Oh Luck Off. 
I'm not budging on my position here. 
BTW Kinn. 
In case that sounded like I was taking the piss a bit....you're still lovely. Just wrong in this case. And maybe misinterpreting things a bit, I don't think anyone is saying there is no skill involved, nor that spawns are not a good monster / good fun entertainment / an essential part of any Quake map especially when placed in secrets. Just that there is some luck involved due to their random nature, and that in some - usually obvious circumstances - that can make a NON-100% skill-based encounter. 
 
erratic =! random

It's never going to fling itself away from you, for example.

How far it attempts to move with each jump is a fixed amount as well - if it bounces off a wall before it completes one is something that can be taken into account if you're precise enough.

Truly random would be it completely ignoring the player and just jumping about in any old direction and at random distances.

They have too much health and cause too much damage on bump in id1. A bomb enemy is supposed to take you by surprise when you forget it explodes. Not force you into destroying it because otherwise it will kill you extremely quickly with those 10 damage hits.

The health was just too high for my preference as well - bullet sponges are boring to fight IMO. I prefer more, and more dynamic fights. 
Okay. 
erratic

/&#618;&#712;rat&#618;k/

adjective: erratic

not even or regular in pattern or movement; unpredictable.

"her breathing was erratic"

synonyms:

unpredictable, inconsistent, changeable, variable, inconstant, uncertain, irregular




I'll take that instead of "truly random". 
You're Predictable 
 
 
You Brits and your wank fights. 
Wank Fights 
Are a proud institution.

Like morris dancing or scrapheap challenge. 
 
I dunno about erratic, they're certainly erotic though. 
 
I'm kind of with Shambler on these maps. Maybe I wasn't in the right mood when I played them.

Good to know I can make LunSP2 harder though! 
Implying HL3 Won't Be Out First 
 
It Might Be 
 
Trying To Make More Clear 
for those who didn't understand me:

1) Try to learn from where the tarbabies come, and kill them before they jump. Dying on the first time is normal, because they'll still have the element of surprise until you figure out their spawnpoints.

2) Look for obstructions to block them. Their jump height is fixed! Low door entrances, low ceilings with girders, etc.

3) Go for higher places where they can't reach you.

4) If they're underwater, approach them from over the water, and vice versa.

Look, memorize, plan in advance.

As I do that, those maps are becoming a lot easier.

Was I being too vague in my previous comment about tarbabies? 
5) Use Them As Infight Bait. 
 
 
Dying on the first time is normal

Let's extend this to crushing ceilings and traps and stuff. Wham! Haha! Player didn't see THAT coming! It's okay, they can just reload. 
To Be Fair That Works Perfectly In Dark Souls 
 
"oh my god it's a spawn!"

*player instantly gibs at the mere sight of it* 
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