Jeez Mrs Woodham must be knackered by now... 

Having problems running the map...

-game Fmb100 didn't work, and now I am saddened by the fact I cannot play this spectacular looking map. Batch file did not work also. Any help? 

nice level!
worked fine here!

thanks for the proper oldskool experience, mike und tronyn! rather funny map, tho in some areas i had no ammo, but still, it was good :) 

Looked good - played good
No problems here.

Strange that Vondur says he had no ammo - I thought that there was to much ammo around the level.

Mike you was right about the 25 min. frag time. I made it in 24.45 on hard.

Thanks for the experince. 

Thank you, thank you.... finally a map to play! Weeeeeee 

My only complaints would be a bit too high contrast sunlight and too little armor on Normal skill. I had to fight too many shamblers without any armor at all. I first missed the YA and couldn't get back until the final showdown (where it came in pretty handy I must add).

Otherwise beautiful visuals (brushwork/texturing/lighting) in my favourite temple style and fun gameplay. I especially enjoyed the early "fiends, what fiends?" surprise ...

I know Mike had a lot of trouble with the terrain, but it really adds significant value to the map.

Kudos to both of you! 

After a lot of craps posts...Q2, Q3, unreal and the new shit game Doom3...a good SP Quake map :) nice work i love it!!! 

nice ideas, nice execution.

And teh terrian was pretty cool. 

nice map! great brushwork. got hung up on some clipping problems a few times... (i cheated once because a clip problem tossed me into the lava...)

anyway, brutal gameplay, but plenty beatable. lots of rockets made the ending a bit easy because of the gl.

also, i missed the NG i think... only had the sng and ssg... couldn't find the secret for the lg.
and no armour... at all. :P

still, it was a lot of fun!

demo (skill1): http://www.planetquake.com/necros/temp/ne_fmb100.dz 

LG secret just involves jumping around the terrain. 

and i haven't found nailgun ;)
probably because i didn't follow the proper route and started jumping to lava secrets with teleporters... so all the nails were useless for me... hence lack of shells ;) 

I found a way to get to the GK without the SK (slowly) ... 

Shambler: she's been a good ol' wagon, daddy but she done broke' down! (100 is the monster count, which I am sure you had spotted)

Zwiffle: Thanks for pointing that out. Item corrected. But as nobody else spotted it, we can keep it to ourselves OK?

Vondur: So you must run in all guns blazing - even if there's nothing there :-) How could you have run out of ammo? If you missed the nail gun (SNG), you must have missed half the map. There is no ordinary nail gun.

Hrimfaxi: 24:45, just about right. Glad you liked it.

aguirRe: Thanks. And thanks for your help. And yes, I was aware of the way to get the GK without the SK. But think of what you'd miss if you used it!!

necros: sorry about the clipping errors. I really did spend a lot of time clearing those (or so I thought). Can you point out where? No nail gun but three lots of armour - you walk past one at the start near the opening in the brick wall. Thanks for the demo, great stuff.

My thanks to Tronyn for allowing me to play with his maps, and to aguirRe for his help with utilities and my problems with terrain. 

mike, seems like i missed half of the map...
gonna replay it cuz i killed 69 out of 100 there.. 

to Mike for making such an awesome map. The outdoor terrain section is incredible. Unlike some people (myself included, hehe), Mike obviously knows how to make challenging gameplay that is still fair. Repeating the theme from FMB8 was a wise choice, as my original theme with the scraps was really haphazard and somewhat cruddy. The title was pure genius as well :)

I didn't know this was in the works until just recently (a pleasant surprise), so I actually started making something out of some of the same scraps as well. Maybe in 6 months it will be out (that's what I say for everything) as I have little time for mapping at this point. 

to have terrain in q1 with monsters on it? Or is that one of the difficulties you ran in with mike? 

from personal experience, i'd say no, unless the terrain was really smooth and featureless.
the problem with terrain comes from the way qbsp extends the brushes to create the hulls 1 and 2. it creates troughs between neighbouring brushes on edges which the player (and monsters) get hung up on... 

could you repeat that last paragraph in english rather than in mapper speak? 

i've been discussing stuff with aguire last week and i just tend to slip into that now and again...

basically, in order for quake to do collision detection for players and monsters, qbsp builds invisible "hulls" which are actually just extruded versions of the original map. the game then performs point entity collision detection (which is faster than boundingbox collision detection and was what was needed to make the game work back when it was made) like with grenades and rockets, but against the extruded version of the map.

but because qbsp isn't perfect, the extrusion process sometimes makes odd geometry like troughs betweens brushes.

original map:
http://www.planetquake.com/necros/temp/ter1.jpg

you can see, i've traced the edges in black. this is the normal, visible hull that is usually in q1 maps.

hull1 (extruded version made visible with aguire's qbsp):
http://www.planetquake.com/necros/temp/ter2.jpg

the red lines denote where the edges are in the normal visible hull. this is hull1 used for collision on player sized monsters. (and the player...)
you can see how the brushes have been pushed outward-- extruded and has formed troughs on the edges.

in fact, i noticed later that a more visible example is on the edge which is behind the text in the second shot. :P you can see the trough shape that qbsp made more clearly there.

anyway, this is why making terrain with monsters on it would be difficult. the monsters would have a hard time moving around because they'd be getting stuck on these troughs.

sorry about the quality of the pics, btw...
hope that explains it. :) 

cheers for that.

What about having something that doesnt move much on terrain, like a vore? 

you can get the gk rather quickly, I think I'm using the same way as aguirRe, but it isn't at all slow. got it done in 1:05. anyone interested? 

scratch that. 0:38. 

Thoroughly enjoyed the map, but I think the terrain on fmb3 was better... ;-)

Anyway, given that lodis has done a run and I think it's a fun map we'd like to add it to SDA and throw it open to the whole speedrunning crew.

But to do that I'd like to incorporate our QdQstats patch stuff into a new progs.dat for the map. So could you please mail me (morfans@planetquake.com) with details/qc of what is in the custom progs.dat you supplied with the map?

Or just mail me and tell me you don't want me to tinker around with your precious work. Either way is good.

BTW. I'm posting this here because I couldn't find an e-mail address in the .txt that came with the map. :-) 

OK, more or less what necros said. I have a screenshot from FMB100 that shows the hulls situation a little more clearly, with another showing the editor's view of the same area. Note that my terrain is made up solely of triangular brushes and ignore the colours in the game shot, they simply enhance the effect to make it more visible.

www.mikewoodham.com/Screenshots/editor.jpg
www.mikewoodham.com/Screenshots/game.jpg

It seems that Qbsp does not like planes or angles that are very close to each other. Like necros, I have spent a long time bothering aguirRe with these 'clipping' problems and although there are a number of things you can do with terrain to reduce them, I have not yet found a way to definitely eliminate them. I thought that FMB100 was clear of problems but it seems that necros found some: see his post above.

Certainly, when you do build terrain in large amounts you should use a generator: this is to a) do it quickly and without tears b) make it accurate as above everything else, the slightest mis-alignment will introduce massive errors and c) make it look better than you can by hand.

See this link:-

http\\:www.mikewoodham.com/Quake/Downloads/testers.zip

These are three early versions where I was experimenting. Monsters.bsp is a small section of terrain where I wanted to see how to bring the monsters down the mountain. You will notice that at the start point the Ogres cannot see you but if you drop down they will see you and attack. In the first area only one Ogre drops down � this one is on the same level as the others but his bounding-box overhangs the flat surface. This seems significant.

As you go around the canyon floor, two other Ogres drop down and these were set on the slope below the level of the others and therefore out of sight. If you no_target and no_clip and move around, it is clear to see what I have done. Of course, in a real map you would not the start point where it is.

Chase.bsp is another terrain where I wanted to see what the monsters could cope with. The lower Ogre will come down the track quite easily and eventually will be on the ground. The second, higher Ogre will get so far around the track but not be able to get past a narrow section, which the player can easily cope with. Neither map is complete - they are experimental only. The first Ogre will also follow you back up the track (provided that you don�t kill him first!)

So, you can put monsters on terrain and climbing down can be reasonably controlled. Climbing up terrain is dependant on the angle of the slope and so far, I can only tell you that it needs to be quite wide, not too bumpy and not too steep. I eventually gave up trying to build a large-scale terrain and therefore discontinued my experiments with monsters.

Finally, there is one of the original large terrains that I built to try to import Tronyn�s scraps into. It will not run in standard Quake, FitzQuake or DarkPlaces but will run in aguirRe�s development GL engine. There are a number of clipping errors evident � invisible walls and non-solid brushes. But it does give a flavour of what could be possible. I also have some caves that are very convincing.

Errrm... hope this helps? 

Fmb3? I just looked that up to see it was over 6 years ago!!

Play with the map in what ever way you choose: the more people who see/play it the better.

As for the progs.dat, this was supplied to me by Preach following my search for simpler monster teleporting. As far as I can tell, it is about 4 lines of code for each manster and it simply allows the use of a flag to be set in the monster entity settings, which hides the monster from view until triggered triggered. In the editor, you place the monster where you want it to appear. This is much easier to use than the teleporting-from-another-room scenario. I think everyone should use Preach's progs.dat.

I will happily send you the file that Preach supplied me if you wish.