Ogg made sense when MP3 was still patented and an unencumbered format was required/desired. Where the Free Software world often falls down is in not realising that it's not 1998 anymore; the assumption is that rules and situations that applied in 1998 would continue in perpetuity, but the MP3 patents were always going to expire and Ogg's reason to exist would be reduced.

A technically inferior solution that has high market penetration or better ease of use will always win. The moral of the story is that end users don't give a flying one for technical superiority. They just want something that works and gets out of their way while doing so. 

Baker, you sound like you may be on a few beers too many, but I'm still going to reply with my own rant at your ranting, because you're touching on some of the issues I've had with Mark V:


What does QuakeDroid have to do with Mark V supporting OGG? If QuakeDrioid doesn't support OGG, then it doesn't support OGG (I will probably never bother copying the Quake soundtrack to my android anyway). I play Mark V on my WinXP netbook, not on my android device, and Mark V already can play OGG files (assuming the correct decoder is present on the computer) -- Mark V just doesn't bother to look for OGG files. So I have to rename OGGs to MP3, or hex edit and hack Mark V to look for OGG instead of MP3.

And as I mentioned in #1767, OGG files fix an unsolvable issue my Netbook has with running MP3 files in Mark V -- that being a long delay (sometimes ridiculously long) in loading the file in Quake. We did a massive amount of troubleshooting of my issue in the old topic, where I tried so many different things like installing various decoders, but NOTHING worked... until I tried using OGG files and the problem magically went away.

I've been holding out hoping you would do the utterly simple step of simply ALLOWING Mark V to see the OGGs that it is already capable of playing.... The other option I have thought of is either: offering a pack of OGGs files renamed as MP3 for download for people who want to use the soundtrack in Mark V, or hex editing Mark V and offering my hacked version for download on my site for other users like me who would prefer an OGG soundtrack (without confusing renamed MP3-OGG files).

This is not the future -- this is the now, and people are playing an ancient game using old computers, and those people are asking for OGG support.

You're simply wrong about this one Baker. Stop being so stubborn and LISTEN to the people who are actually using your engine. I think we know what we want... rather than what you're telling us we SHOULD want.



I also agree with Spike that switching gamedir should absolutely exec the configs in that gamedir. Otherwise you are not running the mod correctly. "game fvf" is supposed to replace the need for a command line switch "-game fvf" yet it does not, because it does not exec config files that are set up for that mod.

Yeah, we've been over this before ( #55 #68 #87 #89 ), and you always go with "but what if there are bad settings in those config files?" Then that's how the mod should run, because that is the expected default behavior of Quake when running a mod!

Basically I still need to use a command line "-game fvf" since "game fvf" does not work like "running a mod" is supposed to, and would require at least one extra step. 

Hey, Johnny Law. It looks like you are a real power user with running custom maps.

I'd like to get your opinion on a feature in Mark V (since we're revisiting some of these old issues): If you are running from a gamedir or mod with custom maps, and you use the menu to start a New Single Player game, Mark V guesses at what map to run instead of putting you in the default start.bsp (standard Quake behavior -- though actual mods can alter this to start you wherever they want).

Is this a feature that you actually make use of, or do you run custom maps a different way?


I really like the "Levels" menu that lets me specify any specific custom map I do want to run. (Though I remember there was an issue with the Levels menu being disabled when custom menu graphics are present, though me and someone else suggested it shouldn't be.. up around #1227 ).


But I greatly dislike the "guessing" behavior, and it has given me problems by guessing wrong from what I actually want, and I can't even disable this feature. It takes away user control, doesn't apply or function in some situations, and causes unwanted behavior other times (also discussed in-depth around the same location upthread).

I have to point out that it seems to me to go against Baker's credo, which he just stated:

"I have strong feelings about detrimental features that take away choice or control from users or thrust chaos on them." 

Honestly I'd forgotten that Mark V does that... hmm.

For almost any episode-ish thing that has a start or hub map, they use start.bsp for that purpose. On the other hand if it's just an unconnected collection of maps then I always just select the map I want explicitly through the levels menu or a launcher or whatever.

It's true that there are some older id1/vanilla maps that have a startmap+othermap combo for selecting skill, and since they expect you to place it in id1 they call their startmap something other than start.bsp. Like Adamantine Cruelty having an acstart.bsp map. If you put that in its own mod folder then it could be useful to have Start New Game infer that it is a start map, but since I'd forgotten about that behavior I always just explicitly pick the map in those cases too.

Sorry, no real opinions. I'm not sure in what situations the "guessing" behavior would be worse than not-guessing, since the worst case either way is that you end up launching the wrong map. 

I suppose one way in which it could be worse is if it guesses wrong but you don't realize for a while that you are in the wrong map. (Because you haven't played those maps before.)

Out of curiosity, do you remember an example of it guessing wrong? 

I believe that the guessing feature doesn't activate when everything is running from id1 (so it becomes useless when maps are installed in id1, as I assume a lot of custom maps packs are).

Issues I have run into include (more detailed info was upthread):

( #1251 )
Having a modified DM6 map included in my mod, and since that is the only map, Mark V assumes it should be run when I go to start a single player game. This is completely wrong....

Or, if I want to install extra maps in my mod folder (FvF can be used with custom maps, as can some other mods), then one of them will get guessed and selected when I want to start a new single player game, and it will always be the same map, either going alphabetically or looking for cues in the map name (like with your "acSTART.bsp" -- that would be selected). But that's almost never going to be what I want when I have many maps installed and I go through the menu to start a default single player game.

Baker's intent is to make it easy to launch single-player map/mod releases by using the menu; see #1253 (and you could read 2 posts later where I examined the map packs that had been mentioned to see how useful it would be in practice -- maybe 50% useful).

But I think the Levels menu is already the ideal solution for that. And it could still show the maps near the top of the list that it guesses are most likely the intended starting maps....

So to me it just seems that a feature which sometimes works, sometimes doesn't, and sometimes causes problem -- that's a feature that should not be activated by default with no way to disable it.

And it sounds like people may not even be using it anyway.... I'd assume that most people, like me (and you, it seems), would just assume that default of starting a new single player game in the menu will behave as Quake always did, and start the default game, and if we want to start a custom map we'll use that wonderful Levels menu. 

LOL at the whole "mobile gaming is the future and I'm the next Steve Jobs" nonsense. Sober up, Baker. 

Well, we can allow him a few rambling rants when he's on a few beers, as long as he becomes reasonable and rational at some point afterwards ;) 

As long as Baker doesn't turn Mark V into a mobile exclusive port, he may rant as much as he wants. 

Larger update than the norm for Mark V. 46 modifications plus some major revisions.

Download: Windows - Direct X | WinQuake (Direct X is fast!!)

Alternate Builds:
1. WinQuake GL (killpixel)
2. SDL "zero dlls" build with mp3 sound track + all controllers support

In this version:

1) Xbox Controller Support. PS4 + Steam Controller will happen later. (based on ericw help in the implementation in Quakespasm)
2) Perfect "install" unpacking for non-traditional zips (johnnylaw)
3) r_shadows 3 issue with higher vert models fixed (NightFright)
4) Big Sepulcher Support (pulsar, killpixel, qmaster reminders/nudges)
5) Multiplayer save game menu integration (qmaster)
6) Possible fix for input lag (killpixel, dabblingsquidward). Verification needed.
7) Alternate "joy_" prefixed game controller names (conversation amongst Spike, gunter, ericw)
8) DirectX 9 hipnotic decal workaround per mh (dabblingsquidward)
9) Dynamic scaling for scr_showfps 1 and friends (gunter)

10) And 36 other small or moderate enhancements including things like 64-bit killer buttons fix via ericw, small Linux enhancements and implementing tweaks from comments from many different users.

----
Next Version: Split-screen support!! (video

Now ... here's the catch ... will it be 2 weeks or next winter?

I'm a winter coder and we had a frigid April in Ohio/USA. I tend to vanish for months in warm weather. And I'm a bit burnt out.

But if there is enough user feedback, I also kind of feel like doing this sooner rather than later. I need a bit of convincing there are actually people who are actually going to use the split-screen with 2 people or more playing on the same screen sitting on the same couch. 

@iriyap - It's supposed to be funny as self-deprecating comedy through going the opposite direction. / Anyways the start of Cinco de Mayo is serious business. No time for beer rants! Peace out! 

Coolness.

Can you shed a bit more light on the functional difference between mark_v.exe and the SDL build? 

Also a heads-up... I tried "install mapjam6" as a test just now, and it went a little haywire. It put bsp files and lits directly into id1, and also discarded various other things from the .zip.

"install qump" went a bit better, but it still put the maps into id1\maps (rather than qump\maps) even though a start.bsp is among them.

Haven't tested other installs yet. 

Mark_V.exe has mh DirectX 9 uber-speed.

The SDL build serves 3 purposes:

1) Any game controller support instead of just Microsoft Xbox compatible. I don't have a PS4 controller to available to do the kind of coding/test for pure native Windows API at the moment. (I made phone calls and it was Xbox, Xbox, Xbox, Xbox. "Ok what about your friends? Xbox? Really?" What kind of luck is that? Especially since PS4 selling extremely well ...)

(Short version: Mark_V.exe all the way)

2) To see if gunter's foobared Windows XP machine can play mp3s with that because I use an entirely different direct Windows API method. I still hope he spills coffee on it, but it has been great for testing -- especially the extreme compatibility mh has offered with the Direct X 9 version (mh is simply incredible).

3) Poke Quakespasm a bit to go "no dlls". The same way Spike sometimes pokes at me about X, Y or Z (or how sometimes I poke at Spike a bit) or the same way mh occasionally pokes at me about X, Y, Z. Friendly developer "Aw come on dude!" peer pressure and all that.

Let me know how it goes with the install capabilities. I felt like I couldn't do a release without getting it right so I rewrote half of it to be very precise. 

Well .. I'll test those examples tomorrow and do a version 1.98b.

I took a diverse pool of zips with many different configurations, but apparently a different have a diverse enough set in the pool.

Perfect is the goal. So ... perfect it shall be. And perfect is what I demand it must be be ...

Tomorrow. 

Hah, perfect isn't required. :-) I will just be doing a test run through the examples I listed earlier. 

Actually, when the next build is up, I'll go through all of the 50+ installs that the SP starter pack currently supports. Not sure it will happen this weekend because of family stuff, but as soon as possible. 

Alright ... qump (what an incredible start map!) and mapjam6 now unpack ok.

1.98 updated

Only that binary has been updated while I kick tires on a couple things that don't affect the windows operating system. 

Hm, the mouse speed seems dramatically lower in the new build. I've always used a "sensitivity 10" setting, but now I need to set it to 20 to have the same feel (and the slider only goes to 11).

The SDL version seems... weird.... Text and other colors are off, and the sound it tinny. But it has the same freeze-up delay of around 5 seconds when I enable the music, as it loads track04.mp3 (and this was after encoding it in various ways to get that delay down from the original 14 seconds). but if I use an ogg renamed as an MP3, the delay is less than 1 second....

I don't remember all the testing we did in the past (it's all on the oldpage), but I think FTE and Quakespasm had no delay at all for loading MP3s for me....


Question: would the split-screen players be able to connect to an online server? 

1) Mouse now uses DirectInput so sensitivity is a bit different.

According to the research I've done, Windows updates in recent years introduced some behaviors that could cause "frame lagging" with the "ancient way" that Quake did mouse input (which involved recentering the mouse cursor every frame), hence the change to DirectInput which I believe will eliminate the frame lag some users say they experience when using, for instance, a high refresh rate.

Aside from having to tweak the sensitivity.

2) The SDL build uses 44100 as a forced sound frequency because of some sort of SDL2 oddness. Hence the much more crispier sound. I prefer the way that Quake traditional sounds myself but Mark V has a sndspeed cvar that can be set to 11025, 22050 or 44100 and is read on launch. (Has no affect in that SDL2 build, 44100 must be forced).

3) Too bad the mp3 has a delay on your old Win XP computer even for the build that uses a completely different Windows mechanism. I had hoped that on your machine that it would resolve the issue. I tried. I know reformatting that Win XP isn't an option.

4) Split-screen connecting to an online server ...

Well ... I wasn't planning on that.

If I did have it do that, would you be able to test it?

But here is a big question: I am planning to target exclusively the Direct X 9 for that feature. I have to really abuse Windows API to do split screen and SDL2 serves as middleware and isn't going to let me use the abusive Windows API evil that I do for split-screen. 

Ah yes, I remember back in the day I would use the -dinput switch, and that would have a similar effect of requiring me to ramp up my sensitivity. I think this does make my trackpad movement look very slightly smoother too. But you might consider allowing the Sensitivity slider to go up to 22 or so, since this will likely have a similar effect on other people.


Yeah, the XP MP3 issue is weird. On my other (even older) XP laptop, I recall I did't have the issue. But I also remember seeing a post on Quakeone where Dutch said Mark V has "a difficult time playing external MP3" on his WinXP computer.... I don't think he ever gave additional details about that, but I'd very likely assume it was the same issue.


Oh, I would certainly give it a test if split-screen could connect to an online server. Hm. But there are all kinds of issues around that, like if someone wanted to chat on the keyboard, which player's guy would speak? I'm guessing there would only be one "master" player which was attached to the keyboard, and others would be limited to a certain gamepad? 

Adjust slider range to reflect? Excellent idea, gunter! 

I'm guessing there would only be one "master" player which was attached to the keyboard.

That is correct. Only one player can keyboard.

I once considered that I think Spike said RawInput can provide access to 2 keyboards. And perhaps someday I'll consider that route. But I don't feel like coding for such a situation right now.

Multiple keyboard support is probably very low priority. 

Revisiting found the comprehensive list that iriyap wrote up that had some ideas/suggestions for improvement (self note it is post #1805 -- I keep losing track of it)

In particular, I have my eye on the few seconds of lag issue on video restart that affects some machines.

I know how this was introduced. I was actually trying to stop a sound jutter, and while fixing it on some machines indirectly caused this to happen on others. 

Install testing is looking pretty good -- I got about halfway through, might be able to finish it off tomorrow or Monday.

A minor feature request for your consideration: an optional argument to the install command to indicate "please put this in its own mod directory" (regardless of whether it could work in id1). Like, if I'm installing terra and I want to make sure it ends up in its own "terra" folder.