falling into the hom dreams, anyone? 

Further to my previous post a while back about monsters.

Bear in mind I say what I say because I am a fervent supporter of Quake, the Quake mapping scene, and good enhancements (map and mod-wise) to Quake itself. I may say belligerent stuff but it is all for the goal of encouraging people to do what I firmly believe is best for Quake, and avoiding what I believe is detrimental to the Quake experience. There has been a lot of both of those over the years!!

With monsters as with other mods and indeed maps, I firmly believe in enhancing and building upon the sheer Quakieness of Quake. This is a scarcely definable concept but will be fairly obvious to many fellow fanatics. Many people "get it" and have demonstrated that in their work. There is a certain atmosphere, a certain brutality, a certain individuality and distinctiveness from other brands, a certain viscera, a certain dislocatory flair to Quake that makes it what it is. I don't believe in "sticking to the old ways" and keeping Quake solely Quake but I believe additions that are Quake 1.1 or Quake 1.2 not non-Quake.

I sense in this thread there are 3 concepts at work:

Firstly, fixing Quake monster bugs. Non-self-damaging Vore-balls, monsters drowning or burning, and Z-aware monsters being part of this. I.e. behaviour that people feel that *should* have been part of the original Quake but wasn't for whatever reason (technological limits or laziness). This concept is the least changing of the Quakiness of Quake but I do think for many veteran players it changes the experience quite significantly. In particular we are used to exploiting some monster behaviours (Z-unaware monsters) and not exploiting others (monsters surviving in harmful liquids). This could take some adapting to for the Quake purists, myself included. The idiocy of Ogres is not a fundamental part of the game, but it IS a fundamental part of the gamePLAY, for better or for worse. Fixing these bugs might be done with the best intentions but I think it needs to be done with care - I personally would like to see some visual differentation and some different classes of monsters, rather than the old behaviour completely overriden.

Secondly, enhancing current monsters. For example swimming Fiends, strafing base enemy, better AI etc etc. There is a lot of crossover between this and the first concept but there's definitely an area where you're adding to the monster rather than fixing something that is "obviously wrong". This is sort of an in-between concept - it changes the Quakiness somewhat but not as much as custom enemy, and it changes the gameplay BUT it's also a bit more obvious that the enemy are enhanced and one must tackle them differently (i.e. more obvious to get used to than bug-fixed enemy). However I personally question how worthwhile a change it is....further than the bug-fixing, it's starting to change the Quake monsters' characters, and thus Quake's characters. If it has to be done, visual cues are even more important, but I think it might be better to go the whole hog and have clearly new monsters in addition to the standard bestiary.

Thirdly, clearly new monsters. New skins, new models, new attacks, new behaviour. BUT hopefully still QUAKE ones ;). This area is the clearest potential departure from Quake but also the clearest potential enhancement. Okay Quake monsters are a great selection but there are only a few of them....especially in comparison to the vast number of maps and gameplay-hours most of us have experienced. I still really like pure Quake but I think there's a lot of potential for great additions IF THEY'RE DONE RIGHT. I.e. in keeping with the spirit of Quake both aesthetically and gameplaywise.... AND to have value and worth in their own right - the discussion of additional swimming monsters being a good example of that, an enhancement concept with a clear purpose.

Okay....next....some thoughts on current monsters. 

My opinions on various monsters I can remember. From the perspective of how they enhance Quake in it's ethos and gameplay.

Scourge:

Centroids:
Good. Good combat style, good to have nails. Fairly well done but too based on a real world concept, needs to have more Quake abstraction.

Spike Mines:
Great. A sort of abstract and bewildering enviromental hazard (e.g. why do such arcane things track you?). Good, different style of gameplay from them.

Gremlins:
Very good. Adds a useful small enemy into the equation and has good character. Stealing weapon is a novel concept but without being overly irritating. Plenty of potential there. Model is a bit....well....Gremlin-like. A bit more Quake weirdness would be good.

Armagon:
Good. Looks like a pretty suitable Quakey bio-construct. Boss gameplay yadda yadda.

Dissolution:

Enhanced Ogres etc etc:
Average. Decent enough to fight against but don't do anything that interesting.

Flying wizard dudes:
Average. Quite a good fight against them but pretty un-Quakey style.

Gay dudes with staffs:
Rubbish. Nothing to do with Quake. Okay gameplay but too badly themed.

Mini-Chthons:
Very good. Fits into the Quake style very well and adds some good, if un-revolutionary, gameplay. A solid addition.

Zerstorer:

Mega-enforcers:
Excellent. One of the first monsters that really gave a fresh gameplay feel, and still one of the best. A good new challenge to face but not excessively so. Good new model and effects BUT the colour was pretty weak.

Nemesats:
Good. Pretty weird and worrying which is good for Quake, but the robes are somewhat....too wizardy. And the attacks, although very interesting, can seem somewhat random (i.e. random instant death).

Sanguinoch:
Very good. Not a monster but has a similar ethos to a monster. Very cool and different effect, but with a brutal feel well fitting with Quake.

Nehahara:

(Embarrassingly I can only remember one Nehahra monster!!)

Vomitus:
Good. Easy to fight but a good style for fitting into the more evile Quake maps.

Quoth:

Enhanced enforcers:
Okay. Effectively done and well skinned, but some issues with them (i.e. instant reaction for DBS grunt), and a disproportionate challenge for mere humanoids.

Bob drones:
Poor. Too out of place in Quake and although the challenge is fair, they just seem a tedious ammo-sink.

Slow-moving drones:
Okay. Better than Bobs - less tedious to face and more fitting with the arcane Quake style.

Nail-firing Ogre thing:
Very good....ish. Great new base challenge. Looks a lot more bad-ass than normal base monsters and appropriately IS a lot more bad-ass. Very well-fitting model for Quake....but unfortunately also a very well-fitting model for Quake2. I'm not sure how that could be avoided though....

Polyps:
Very good. Cool gameplay, worrying without being too dangerous, and a different approach for them. Like Zer's ME, a fresh and good challenge. Fits in pretty well to Quake being somewhat of an advanced Spawn.

Vorelings:
Excellent. Spot on. Fills a small monster niche and fits into Quake perfectly. Cool new baby-Vore model.

Knights who slice you from miles away:
Average. Decent model and ranged attack and stuff, but I can't see they offer anything that new.

Hell lord Knight thingies:
Good. Like the Zer ME a fresh new challenge although not as clear-cut as Zer's shield effects and not quite as needed as MEs were. The "easy to kill but very dangerous in sight" aspect is good. The strolling is good, I'd prefer a slightly more impressive model though.

Flying things:
Good-ish. Good attack (although I never knew it could be dodged), good sounds and good to have another flying challenge. But the model, although well done, doesn't feel very Quakey to me. Too much standard fantasy and not enough abstract monsterousness that say Scrags have.

Droles:
Good. Good attacks and stuff (apart from the hitting you from miles aware). Good to have another BIGish monster. Good weird monster but doesn't quite hit the Quake mark for me. Not quite....brutal enough in it's style.

Gugs:
Very good....ish. Great to have another seriously bad-ass monster. Great attacks too. Good model, good head....BUT it strikes me as very simian with the arms and pose, this always distracts me from the Quakiness. Close to greatness apart from that.

... 

I think there must have been some bollox monsters I've forgot as many more of these get my appreciation than I'd have thought. What I find noticable is that the ones I don't like are mostly....don't have much point to them, they don't seem to add a lot to the game, or they add stuff that's in a very specific direction (e.g. pure base). And equally noticable are several monsters that are close to greatness but by some quirk or small feature of their design just don't quite hit the Quake mark. Ones where you think "just a different colour" or "just a different arm design" and they'd be proper Quake bad-assness....but not quite yet.

Word. 

You forgot the new jumping knight things in Nehahra :o my favourite custom Quake monster by far!

Agree with most of what you wrote though, although I thought the model for the Drole was a bit,err, funny in a way, the way its apendages flap up and down when it walks/runs makes me laugh out loud, but it is a good enemy to fight.

ROFL at the gay dudes with staffs btw... I had totally forgot about them :) 

that the voreling has too much health. It's supposed to die from one dbs shot ffs. 

I've played Quake since it came out, like most people around here, I'm sure. We all know the ins and outs of fighting every single monster in the original game, and I'm pretty sure most of us are overly familiar with the newer Quoth additions too. If you ask me, this is an argument FOR adding z-axis, and other small enhancements. I want to be surprised and challenged, not only by new monsters, but by improved monsters. As long as the mapper introduces them well [as in that e2m5 remake where a z-aware ogre fires a grenade from stupidly far away at the beginning of the map] then I don't see it as unfair on the player.

I still think swimming fiends would be stupid though. They simply don't look like they would be good swimmers. It's hard to be scared of something when you're laughing at it. 

... they don have fins... so I'd rather prefer to see a new monster: a swimming-fiend ;) 

I don't see how z-aware ogres are an enhancement to Quake's simple and pattern-based gameplay. Look at Zelda, those Octorok monsters can only shoot in 90� angles. Would you see it as an enhancement if they would shoot in all angles? It would overcomplicate gameplay and frustrate players because evading is much harder.

It's an important gameplay element. Easy to learn and handy to use. If this "flaw" of the ogre is too apparent in a map, well then the mapper has placed him badly. You wouldn't place a knight on top of a pillar 20 feet away either, would you?

Why not also add "headshots" where the player dies instantly if the enemy hits his upper body (fiend on top, hello). I mean, it's only realistic and totally enhances the game!!! 

Maybe I'm just seeing things, but after playing nsoe, it appears as if the z-aware ogres can shoot grenades with such velocity/range that the player would never be able to replicate, which is cheating, sort of.

Do correct me if I'm wrong.. 

that the mapper placed the first ogre in his e2m5 rmx VERY WELL, so an interesting new gameplay twist was introduced WITHOUT being unfair to the player.

Z-aware ogres simply require a slight shift in approach. Instant-kill headshots would require game-breaking use of god-mode. 

They would just require a slight shift in approach and being introduced WITHOUT being unfair to the player. 

I don't see how z-aware ogres are an enhancement to Quake's simple and pattern-based gameplay

- more caution/challenge/skill/planning etc., which some players might enjoy (after 12 years...)

- it's 2008, nearly everyone uses mouselook, why not grant the same to them poor Ogres ? I find it always silly to see an Ogre frantically throwing grenades above my head.

Easy to learn and handy to use.

always the same pattern - boring / unpredictable monsters - surprise, excitement

Why not also add "headshots"

nice try to generalise, coming soon to the slipgate near you though 

I'm not sure, but i think the non-z-awareness of ogres actually helps them being more dangerous - i can ALWAYS dodge their apples (if there's room), but it's v. hard to keep track of the ones you didn't dodge... 

the mapper placed them right, so they're above me and behind me is wall so them apples bounce back to me and hit me from behind. 

would be nice.

And to blast all of them with a bfg and a rail gun :) 

Is stupid. What I meant before is that monsters should know what liquid is from a purely mechanical POV - drown in water, burn in slime or lava, etc. Depending on the monster type - so fiends would be immune to lava damage but drown if completely submerged in any liquid for long enough. Fiends do have eyes, and I think they need to breathe as well.

Enforcers immune to slime damage?

Z-aware fiends is an interesting idea, so they can leap up onto a 64 unit high ledge, for example.

Look at Zelda, those Octorok monsters can only shoot in 90� angles. Would you see it as an enhancement if they would shoot in all angles?

No, because the player can only move in 90% angles. You can spaz it a bit to get nearly diagonal movement, but that's about it. Quake on the other hand has a fully three-dimensional environment with 360 degree movement in all three axis. It's true that the Ogre can now fire much further than before, so a cap to his maximum distance is probably a good idea. 

shouldn't it be Y-aware instead?

I like the idea of enforcers being immune to slime damage, but then again one rarely sees them (or any enemy period) submerged in slime, if ever.

Death Knights should be lava immune, though, knowing fire magic et al. 

RE: monsters affected by liquids.

Careful here. I always considered quake's monsters as unearthly entities that aren't bound by the normal rules. I think it adds to their appeal. I can't remember who said it, but the best example i heard was someone's description of a deathknight (and i can't remember the exact words) as "waiting behind the door motionless for thousands of years, but ever ready to spring instantly into action with his sword, should anyone disturb him".

I think it makes them a lot creepier to know that they are somehow immune to drowning, lava etc. 

http://celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=60049&start=10&end=10

What you say is very true, but some monsters are more unearthly than certain others. Shamblers burning in lava may be wrong, but Ogres and Knights taking the fire damage is something I'd find appropiate. 

And I agree that a Deathknight being immune to lava damage makes perfect (twisted, arcane) sense.

But the current behaviour in liquids has two things that prompt me to mess with it.

1. Monsters treat liquid exactly the same as air in terms of gravity / whatever. This just looks dumb.

2. They don't die if they fall in, and if the player can't reach them (eg. lava) then they get lost from the killcount, apart from grenade spamming. 

Obvious solution is 'build the map better' eg. put a trigger_hurt at the bottom of pools the player can't enter. But its a waste of an entity and won't affect other maps running under the mod in question - the original maps for example. 

good call, that's the one :) 

If i recall (it's been a long time since I looked) SoA's gremlins had an ugly bodge which did a check for lava at a certain point in their run cycle, and gibbed them if it returned true. 

Would be damaging the monsters a bit, and hurling them out of the liquid (most likely back into the player) to make them appear scalded.

It would be pretty annoying to code and the effect would end up somewhat cartoony, but what the hell :p