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Doom4 has been announced, id are looking for people, if you are that person, and are good at what you do, have a look.

Doom4, discuss it or not.
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i've tweak doom3 to pretty much how i'd like it...

increased player speed to default to slightly less than the sprint speed, substantially reduced the damage feedback, i use lightscale 3 making the lights 3 times as bright. this oversaturates some lights, but is a good balance between ugly oversaturated and brightness.

shotgun has no clip, chaingun has no clip, plasma gun's clip increased to 99, machinegun's clip increased to i think 80 or something, pistol fires as fast as you can click it, you can interrupt reloading animations to switch to other weapons. shotgun spread tightened up, but damage reduced. grenades act like hl 1 + 2 grenades; they don't explode in your hands.
probably the only questionable change: plasma gun changed to (almost) hitscan but accuracy degrades after 3 or 4 shots.

imp and hknight now fire standard projectiles, not ballistic but faster moving. wraiths can cloak without having to stop. zsec enemies have substantially reduced hitpoints. zombies die in 2 or 3 pistol shots. monsters will now fight each other regardless of 'rank'

i made all these changes over time... basically, it makes the game very fast paced and, to me, a lot more fun. it's a little unbalanced of course, because i never went through to change the map ammo loadouts, so things like the plasmagun being more effective as well as the shotgun being more versatile make some areas a little easier.
this is basically the kind of stuff i'd prefer to see in a doom4 game. 
ooh, is the mod available for download yet? Sounds cool. 
Yeah Give Please! 
sounds way too easy. needs maps made especially for it, with more enemies but I'd try it - url plz!

I editted the particles to be less dense and dissapear quicker and reduced dmg feedback. I played a bit with pm_walkspeed - setting it to same as sprint is pretty cool. TBH I wouldnt mind even faster movement, but the maps are not meant for it. Faster reloading/bigger clip didnt seem to have much impact, so i left it as it was. Tried some other stuff, dont even remember what... Also some testmaps with varied gameplay, from horde to hl2-ish physic puzzles - but nothing satisfying ;/ 
Btw This Is Ot But Is There Some Ultra-realistic Fps 
where you can sprint only short distances, carrying stuff makes you slow (and you can't carry much), you die of one hit or get seriously hurt, clips run out quickly, pistol shooting is much less accurate than rifle etc etc, reloading takes long, never mind changing your weapons, there are no health boxes, bandaging takes long...
It of course would have to be based on short missions in that way, it'd probably get very boring otherwise. 
Sadly necros, if there's one direction I don't think id will be taking, it's making the player movement and weapons more "arcadey" in their single player games. As environments get more and more detailed, FOV shrinks, movement speed slows; its a trend that I'm reasonably sure they'll be continuing, especially because id are all about fussy, unique, environmental detail.

Have you seen the latest Killzone 2 footage? I think they're currently leading the race with the narrowest tunnel vision FOV, and correspondingly the slowest player speed I've seen in an FPS yet.

Personally, I don't think that's going to be the main problem though. As long as id can come up with interesting level design, and drop all the stupid crap they did like monster closets and obvious spawning of monsters on item pickups and other arbitrary triggers, then that will be an improvement I suppose. 

Condemned has some of that. Fire arms are hard to come by, mostly melee weapons from what you find in the environment, etc.

I can't think of any game that does all of that stuff though. Mainly because I would never play such an annoying game. :P 
Hmm, maybe Stalker. It does most, but not all of that realism stuff. It's also pretty damn good.

Some of the military sims would push the realism more, but then you have to play a military sim. 
anyone tried the oblivion lost mod? Apparently it fixes loads of problems and makes the game way more realistic too. It improves enemy ai, makes the game a properly persistant world, adds some of the enemies that the stalker devs disabled in code, adds vehicles, fixes problems with blowouts etc.

I haven't played it yet and only have STALKER on my work pc, so I doubt I will be trying it anytime soon as I'd rather not spend lunch inside during the summer, but there is a page with lots of info here:

Sounds like a fucking cool mod. 
They should drop that Hell shit. I'd like to see a more general cross-cultural version of the underworld and the forces of Chaos.

give us werewolves, dragons, goddesses of destruction, bloodsucking seductive spirits. No more goats please.

There is a rich mythology out there. But I guess that won't sell to their target audience. 
A vague depiction of an undefined otherworldly realm of evil not entirely unlike the original Quake then.

I'd probably be alright with that. 
i can live without those four examples of cheesy fantasy monsters you suggested. 
Operation Flashpoint, basically. 
The multiplayer shooter Red Orchestra: Ostfront 41-45 does some of those, but doesn't venture as far and deep as Operation Flashpoint.

Then there's the spiritual successor to Operation Flashpoint called Armed Assault, but I haven't had the chance to play that yet, so can't comment further.

And of course the weird thing is, they aren't annoying to play, but really fun. 
none of them are fantasy monsters. 
that's pretty similar to what I was doing with byzantine. changed a lot of those same variables to get the player out of his wheelchair and give him some decently useful guns. 
#74 posted by gb:
werewolves, dragons, goddesses of destruction, bloodsucking seductive spirits.

#79 posted by gb:
none of them are fantasy monsters.

Ok, I know I'm going to regret not letting this one slide, but I'm curious to know: How exactly are these not fantasy creatures? 
I guess England has been so densely populated for so long there aren't any of those anymore. How could a chimney or even a bell tower hold a dragon's nest, like they do for storks and owls. No way it could take all the weight. And with all the dimwits scaling the damn mountaintops constantly, there's simply no room left for those magnificient but shy and delicate creatures over there.
Only a massive accident could clear humans from a big area, think a nuclear reactor or some biological warfare lab leak... 
You make me want to watch a zombie movie for some reason. ~_~ 
Oh, Sorry Guys 
this was just like a collection of modifications i made... not a mod or anything. i'll see about packaging up relevant changes into a pk3 though. if i do that, i should probably actually do some more rigorous testing to balance things out more. 
packaging up relevant changes into a pk3 though

That would be great, for Quake3, a .pk4 might be better for Doom3 :| 
Sacrilege I say! Meh, for me Doom 3 is Doom 3. I acknowledge that the movement and weapon mechanics could have been done in a more fun way, but it's the way that I played it and got used to it.

In my D3 project that may or may not see the light of day, there's combat in larger, more open areas, and outdoor scenes where you don't run out of air; but I haven't fiddled with movement or weapon behaviour. 
What's the problem?

They're creatures from mythology, not fantasy. A shambler is a fantasy creature (to my knowledge.) An ogre is a mythological one, afaik. As are werewolves, dragons, "succubi" and gods like Kali, and zombies, changelings, elves, dwarves and walking dead. Corresponding mythologies are Norse, Hindu, Celtic, African/Voodoo, Roman, Greek...

You may dismiss the mythology as primitive or whatever, but they're not cheesy fantasy creatures. People believed in them for ages before fantasy literature was invented.

I could call Satan or Jesus cheesy fantasy creatures just the same, and I would be wrong since they're from mythology, not fantasy. (Personally I find "Hell" more cheesy than some of the other myths.)

I hope you find this response civil and not offending. 
i can totally understand what you're saying kinn :)

that's why i never made this a mod. it was just tweaks to make the game more fun for me.

and i was looking over it last night, playing the game from the beginning, and it's more unbalanced that i realized.

these days, i just fire up doom3, go in the console and run a random id map and go from there. i just start with the default loadout they give you so probably why i never noticed it, but yeah, it's a lot easier if you play from the start. 
Ah I see, it's a semantics thing.

I'll leave it there because I don't think it's worth me derailing the thread for this. 
^ That Was A Reply To Gb, Not Necros Btw 
Cool, all this talk prompted me to fire up Doom 3 this weekend and start playing through it again from the beginning.

To me, the game still oozes class, despite all its shortcomings, which are all really apparent and have already been beaten to death. It seems fairly obvious that the game was designed around the engine, and not vice-versa. What's more, I don't believe that id's designers have any desire to retread Doom3's gameplay in a newer engine.

I think Doom 4 will be built to show off the capabilities of idTech 5, and I'm assuming that means it will be taken far beyond the cramped, dark corridors of the UAC base. 
Will most likely have huuuuuuge areas, since at the very least Quake Wars was able to do it. It'll make those Spider Mastermind battles all the much better. 
Doom: The Movie: The Game 
Oh God, Please, No, I Hope Not... 
whatever price they're offering you for your souls, ill double it! 
Hell Yeah 
I'd go see Doom:The Movie:The Game:The movie!

Hope Boll get's to direct it unless some petitions or boxing rounds gets in his way. 
Gb: Thank You 
for the lesson in nit-picking. I'm pretty sure it will come in handy one day ;) 
Kinn, Megaman 
Thanks for not utterly destroying me. I mean I OBVIOUSLY kill the Quake community. Yep, I am the culprit. Kill the messenger.

always a good idea. 
yeah, err...feel my wrath, etc. etc. 
Ok I'll Say It 
Whoever suggested that werewolves etc are not fantasy creatures is a fucking idiot. (I can't remember who it was, and I don't care what the reasoning is - that's clearly a ridiculous thing to say).

I'm sure you'll tell me you're not a fucking idiot, you're actually just a complete tosser, but you know what? The difference might matter to you, but to everyone else it's the same fucking thing. 
As For The Actual Topic 

Request non-shit game please. 
Whoever suggested that werewolves etc are not fantasy creatures is a fucking idiot. (I can't remember who it was, and I don't care what the reasoning is - that's clearly a ridiculous thing to say).

I'm sure you'll tell me you're not a fucking idiot, you're actually just a complete tosser, but you know what? The difference might matter to you, but to everyone else it's the same fucking thing.


Request non-shit game please.

That'll do Fribs. That'll do. 
Maybe Whoever It Was... 
...said it because they are a member of a secret society of Warewolves, and got annoyed at once again being tarred with the same brush as all of those fantasy creatures. 
Damn you, you Lycanthropophobes! 
this thread just levelled up 
to quote family guy:

"I may be an idiot, but there is one thing i am not, Sir, and that, Sir, is an idiot." 
That Line Pretty Much 
sum up why I dont get family guy, it's just not funny or clever or both :) 
Family Guy is hilarious! I think I've seen every episode at least 5 times. 
Do You Remember That Time When... 
blah blah blah

The reason I can repeat watch family guy is because most of the gags have nothing to do with the storyline and so it's difficult to remember which episode particular gags are in. 
It Has An Answer To That 
"some people don't like it, when a show cuts away from the main plot for some joke"

cut to (with less shitty music) 
The reason I can't repeat watch family guy is because most of the gags have nothing to do with the storyline and so it's difficult to remember which episode contains the one genuinely funny gag of that series. 
Family Guy 
Not sure what the big deal is about. I generally don't find it funny, not because the humor is random, but because it's genuinely not funny. I think I chuckle on average 1.5 times per episode, but not out right laugh.

It's like Family Guy is trying to be South Park without the substance. -_-* 
The big deal is that it's fucking awesome. 
I Think Family Guy Is Funny 
but after you've seen an episode it gets a bit boring the next time round.

It does make me laugh out loud tho!!

I suppose it's a personal taste thing. Like me for example - I think Jim Carey is really funny and a great (over) actor, but I like ALL of his films, even "The eternal sunshine of the spotless mind" and "23". Some people think he sucks. Which I dont understand..... 
Take This Shit Into The Family Guy Thread 
oh wait... 
Monster Closets Not So Unrealistic After All 
I dunno whether to be more disturbed that this actually happened or that bambuz posted about it in the Doom4 thread.

I remember a japanese prank show that was particularly fucked up. One of the gags involved setting up a situation where the victim would be alone, working in an empty warehouse at night which had a number of clothes store mannequins. The gag was that one of the "mannequins" was actually a real person in makeup and obviously very skilled in standing motionless for long periods of time. After a build-up period where they rigged up a few minor events to creep out the victim - odd sounds, things repositioning themselves when not being looked at etc., the "mannequin" picked his moment to pounce.

Yeah, the victim's reaction was pretty fucked up to say the least :/ 
The Japanese had that show where they locked some guy in an apartment for a year and he had to survive on whatever he could win by entering contests and winning prizes. Truly fucked up - the guy came out of it more than a little screwed up. 
I saw a show where some chick had to wrestle an octopus and then the octopus wrestled back and then their aggression turned to passion and it was a good show to watch. 
Them Crazy Japs 
Zwiffle, I Have All The Episodes If You Want... 
After Doom 3 
does anyone here honestly think D4 is going to be more than a techdemo once again ?!

I remember ID making very bloomy promises before D3 also, and look what we got. 
And Look What We Got. 
best shooter released that year! 
. . . 
Just a shame they stopped putting gameplay in after the first few levels. 
does anyone here honestly think D4 is going to be more than a techdemo once again ?!

Haven't heard that one before �_�. Say what you want about Doom 3's gameplay and whatnot, but fuck me, there was a lot of content in that game. Most FPS's released around that time (and since) clock in at half the length, if that.

Quake 3 might be a tech demo, if you want to get cynical. A 20-hour single player game sure as shit isn't. 
man, i've put a lot of hours into a techdemo :( 
"A 20-hour single player game sure as shit isn't."

Yes, but if you've seen all of the gameplay/environment variants in the first hour do the other 19 really matter all that much?

I thought Doom3 was OK but it was hardly what I would show someone as an example of a fun or awesome game. 
What annoyed me was that all the best gameplay was in the leaked beta / first couple of maps. Enemies crawling out of ducts, smashing through walls, leaving trails of blood between areas . . .

Then they just ran out of time for design. 
Where else could they have gone with the design? I think tbh they kind of boxed themselves into a corner design-wise.

Firstly, the FPS-horror genre seems to me to be incredibly stale. What FPS-horror games didn't get boring as wall-paint after the first hour or so? F.E.A.R.? Don't make me laugh, that was boring after 10 minutes. So really based off this design principle, I don't think Doom 3 is all that bad an example of FPS-horror, but it is as an example of FPS. I just think it was limited in part by it's primary theme.

Secondly, it's location was also very limiting. I mean, they probably chose the inside of a base on Mars due to the tech, so that was kind of limiting too. They couldn't have huge open areas with huge amounts of zombies, and let's face it, zombies aren't too scary unless there's just a fuckload of them. Other monsters aren't really scary imo, so they had to resort to the closet-monster tactic to shock the player, which wore off too quickly. Again, compare to FEAR, which totally swallowed balls, and I think Doom 3 beats FEAR again in this category. FEAR had incredibly redundant enemy "design," none of which lent itself well to horror at all.

Thirdly, this is id. They can do games with tension built into them, but to focus on such a narrow concept of horror when they're known for fast combat is a bit of a departure for them. They slowed down the pace of the game, which was just a huge mistake, but again I think it was limited by the environments. Running around super-cramped halls like Arnold Schwarzenegger in Total Recall doesn't seem to fit the horror theme too well.

I just think they did alright with the direction they went with. 
Yes, but if you've seen all of the gameplay/environment variants in the first hour do the other 19 really matter all that much?

Yeah Doom 3's gameplay is repetitive. Most FPS games are to be honest, except maybe Half-Life 2 - there's some cool shit you can do in that one. Edgy stuff! 
There are ways to keep it interesting. A lot of games do it so there's no reason to cut slack here. 
I Dont Want Driving Sections In My FPS 
thank you. 
There's a game called Penumbra: Overture released, er, last year, that should be pretty scary. It's still first person, but there's less shooting involved. 
like 100x less shooting 
Lack Of Surprises 
I don't think it was the lack of variety in the combat per se. I think the problem was that the scary ambushes were meant to surprise you, but after a half dozen of them they were repetative, and that meant they failed to be shocks. Because the game was so oriented around that idea, it kept falling short of the expectation it set itself. 
1. Teleport blob appears
2. Player turns to face it
3. Player loads shotgun
4. Player has a cup of tea
5. Imp appears and player shoots it

6. Repeat until reaching next area

That wasn't everything, but there was a hell of alot of it. When the gameplay did depart - like the tunnel crawling / trites section, it was twitchy and fun.

There just weren't enough different ways of playing. It didn't need vehicle sections, or hacking or drunken idea #57, just some slight deviation from gameplay design so archaic most mappers on this forum would complain and/or dismiss it if done in Quake 1.

I don't buy the argument that they did well within their chosen direction - if the game concept is lacking then you change it.

If you've marginalised the level design team and have a horde of artists and programmers then what you get is a well made game that looks good, but has repetitive, cheesy gameplay. 
In my opionion FEAR is the best example of a horror fps!

Fantastic gameplay, cool visuals (yes the locations were a bit mundane, but when the bullets fly its so pretty) and the horror factor worked a lot better than Doom.

Granted it wasn't THAT scary when it comes down to it, but it got under my skin more than any other fps game I can think of in recent memory. 
LOL totally forgot about that one, althought I would not classify it as an fps, more a first person puzzle game with fps tones.

Utterly fantstic game, and a fuckton more scary than both doom and fear put together! 
I Envy You DaZ 
you are so easily amused 
was scarier than doom 3 by a long way. Then again, I only played the demo, so maybe it wasn't so scary after the climax of the demo, which gave me a bloody huge scare even though it was possibly the weakest enemy in the game. Despite kind of crappy art at times, it manages to feel very immersive. The interaction with the environment is handled really nicely, so that might have had something to do with it. 
An enemy you can't fight, with time pressure applied so you're panicking trying to hide from it, that you can't even LOOK AT without going insane and revealing yourself, which has kind of wierd russian only-so-good art which is eerily more scary than something by a good artist, is gonna be pretty damn scary. 
I Tend To Agree With Zwiffle... 
...and Kinn. 
I think that what a lot of people are forgetting is that there were definitely cool aspects about the game at the time - monsters, effects, lighting, atmosphere, scariness, some of the style etc etc - which I think made for a pretty cool game at the time, but not one that has lasted the test of time combat-wise. A bit of a one off "initial impact" experience....and I suspect that many people who are now dissing D3 probably enjoyed it then but it's easy to forget about the good qualities when it's not longer a fresh experience... 
.. you are right ! 
I remember it like it was yesterday, because, well... it almost was. WTF, this is practically a new game as far as I'm concerned!

Anyways, you're right to some extent... there are plenty of good qualities there, but the reality is that the gameplay, i.e. the only thing that really matters, was mediocre at best and definitely did not deserve the mighty DOOM name. 
"but the reality is that the gameplay, i.e. the only thing that really matters, "

I wish people would stop saying this because you know good and well that you wouldn't play Quake if it was butt ugly. 
I wish people would stop saying this because you know good and well that you wouldn't play Quake if it was butt ugly.

I wish people would stop saying that because it's largely irrelevant.

You are perfectly right - there's a certain minimum standard (different for everyone, of course) that a game will need to be at in terms of graphics/sound/etc for people to play it at all. But in order to continue playing (or re-playing) a game, the gameplay has to be pretty solid or you'll pass on it.

Don't get me wrong, Doom 3 is obviously a quality game and I played it through to the end (which in itself is a remarkable thing these days). However, I wanted to see it through to the end despite the gameplay flaws, rather than because it was truly fun. The art and atmosphere (when it wasn't being spoiled by shitty monster-spawning-behind-you tactics) was exceptional and made me want to see more.

Ok, the gameplay was mediocre rather than actively bad for the most part, but the problem is it was Doom motherfucking 3! Expectations for the gameplay were so high because Doom was (and still is) the best single-player FPS of all time, and Doom 3 failed to deliver (falling drastically short of the mark). Simple as that.

p.s. you know full well that Quake is butt-ugly by modern standards, but we continue playing it because the fun factor is high. :D 
"p.s. you know full well that Quake is butt-ugly by modern standards, but we continue playing it because the fun factor is high. :D"

For me, that's incorrect. I really like how Quake looks. It exudes a personality that few games are able to match. The graphics are a LARGE part of the Quake experience for me.

And nothing you said refutes what I said. Gameplay is clearly NOT the only thing that matters. 
Well Yes 
I can't refute what I agree with. You're right. Gameplay is not the only thing that matters.

It is however, as I said originally, the only thing that really matters. 
*pokes Fribbles with a sharp stick* 
Obviously a rift in our opinions here lads!

I personally think that Doom3 is an excellent game! I quite like the gameplay. The areas which are supposed to be "lame" in gameplay I dont think are too bad. I like the way the player is made to feel restricted in movement, and I like the fact that you cannt have a flashlight and a gun at the same time. It adds to the tension.
I also love the deserted feel to the game. The exploratory bits are cool!

The graphics were mind-blowing at the time!!

I still play it. Nitin has re-played it. Some of us have mapped for it. We argue about it all the time!

Fribbles is allowed to complain about it. Its his job!

Gaming companys: Increase your output! I wouldn't mind paying an extra 10 pounds for a game if there were more games to play and the games were bigger. MORE RELEASES!!! CREATE AN ARMY OF STAFF TO MAKE MORE GAMES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
"I can't refute what I agree with. You're right. Gameplay is not the only thing that matters.

It is however, as I said originally, the only thing that really matters."

You're still saying that gameplay is the only thing that matters - you're just doing it with many more words. The meaning is the same. And you're wrong. 
Try an experiment - play a game of Quake in "r_drawflat 1" (or whatever that mode was called). Still fun? No? Surprise! 
everybody plays mp in as shitty graphics as possible to see better. 
I know. The fact that a small niche community downgrades the graphics to mud doesn't mean that the "gameplay is the only thing that really matters" mantra is universally true. 
Or, I could counter by saying that when I and my friends play multiplayer games we play in the highest settings our machines can manage. Point negated. 
in a game, all features count. IMHO visual / ambiance is at least as important as gameplay. In Doom3, I was not deceived at all by the gameplay, as I remind how it was difficult to finish some level in Doom already, having to play in the safest possible way, saving after each kill, each corner.
Doom3 is in the direct Doom style, with more tense, more scariness, more fear... How would you react if you were the player in reality ? Would you jump into the melee or would you try to save your life at any price ? Would you run through corridors, or would you progress slowly in order to avoid bad surprises ?
Well, each player has his own point of view, but definitively for me: Doom3 was a success, and I love this game...

... I want to see Doom4 now !! 
i want doom2 again with more grafics!!!

fuck Doom4 :p 
Don't be mean :P 
Hehe Well 
I would have to say that if its done properly, the graphics/sound enters into the gameplay realm to make even mundane activities fun.

Take Stalker for example, a lot of the factory areas were empty of enemies, yet it was fantastic to just walk through them and explore because the atmosphere was so thick, the gameplay was basicly walking along and not fighting at all, but it was just as fun and involving as a shoot-out.

So my opinion is that graphics/sound is very much part of the gameplay and really matters... ;) 
the only game that u loved also was Painkiller the only problem that Painkiller have is no, exploracion or puzzle is just kill kill kill :\ but the guns and the monsters are fucking cool!!! 
To Summarize... 
... each player just found what he likes where others just see crapiness... How do you want to please everybody ? It is impossible ! 
The Great 
Shame of Doom3 was that the leaked alpha had more gameplay than the game itself.

Hopefully in Doom4 the design team won't run out of time for level design and just leave it to the artists. 
yes, you right JPL i was joking :p 
Try an experiment - play a game of Quake in "r_drawflat 1" (or whatever that mode was called). Still fun? No? Surprise!

Yes, absolutely. It should be noted though that I love Quake DM and I play it almost purely for the fun factor rather than anything else.

I probably wouldn't want to play SP with those settings, because I don't find Quake SP anywhere near as fun gameplay wise as DM, so I'd want a little extra incentive ;)

You're still saying that gameplay is the only thing that matters - you're just doing it with many more words. The meaning is the same. And you're wrong.

Look, you understand what I'm saying, you just don't agree with me. I understand what you're saying, and I don't really agree with you. A difference of opinion on an internet forum? Surely not!

We can agree to disagree, but without any offence intended I would say it's fairly ignorant to try to suggest that your opinion is the only one that matters, and that everyone else is just plain wrong. 
The fact that a small niche community downgrades the graphics to mud doesn't mean that the "gameplay is the only thing that really matters" mantra is universally true.

No, but it certainly is indicative of the fact that for some people, the focus lies much more heavily on gameplay than the graphics.

Or, I could counter by saying that when I and my friends play multiplayer games we play in the highest settings our machines can manage. Point negated.

For you maybe. In multiplayer games I'll always prioritise framerate over visuals because it will allow me to experience more fluid gameplay. I might try the higher settings on the first run, but if the game is worth repeat plays then I'll quite likely turn the settings down for more FPS or (in some cases) better visibility (of other players in a DM situation, for instance). 
Bees ? 
Where are the bees !!!??? 
r_drawflat 1 is not a downgrade. It's a useful feature. Similarly, I don't play chess with pieces painted like characters from the Lion King or The Simpsons. It's too distracting. 
When I "play" UT3 I don't even notice the detail. It's all a blur to me anyway. It's too cluttered, there's too much stuff, not very unified. I tend to get the "big picture" but that's about it.

Of course, I don't play UT3, cuz the game sucks, so all I do with it is go around and look at the detail. I basically got it as a benchmark to test my system.

Having said that, yes, ultimately a game boils down to one thing and one thing only: GAME PLAY. Yes, game play. Super detailed ultra advanced graphics are nice, but are not required for a good game. Period. 
Similarly, I don't play chess with pieces painted like characters from the Lion King or The Simpsons.

Personally I play chess with my brain, regardless of which set I use.

Of course, there may be an essential flaw in comparing a fast paced action game where you should people with rockets and rely on reactions to an ancient game of strategy and thought.

Also, I like the attempt to resurrect the UT3 is good/bad debate, but unfortunately When I "play" UT3 I don't even notice the detail. It's all a blur to me anyway. It's too cluttered, there's too much stuff, not very unified. I tend to get the "big picture" but that's about it seems like a complaint that could also be levelled at life. While I agree that the ability to simplify life to make it easier to deal with would be useful, it would somewhat remove the challenge. 
Dammit shoot, not should.

And it was such beautiful flame bait too :( 
"Having said that, yes, ultimately a game boils down to one thing and one thing only: GAME PLAY. Yes, game play. Super detailed ultra advanced graphics are nice, but are not required for a good game. Period."

That's naive at best. People won't play an ugly game no matter how many times the gameplay makes them cum. 
"r_drawflat 1 is not a downgrade. It's a useful feature."

For debugging maps, yes. For playing the game, no. 
I Play Solitaire 
And Quake. And sometimes I even play HL2DM in those rediculous low-G box maps - the graphics suck for those but the gameplay can be fun!!

Hehe - One of my mates has discovered the emulators you can get for old console games - I've had Wonderboy games on my computer this week. (Meh)

But he likes the gameplay of those old platform games!

Personally I think there has to be a balance. I keep having a go at replaying crysis, lured back in by the pretty graphics, but it never lasts long because of the boring gameplay!

UT3 OTOH is GREAT!!!! Excellent graphics AND gameplay. The engine is so FAST that the eyecandy works for me, because it's no trade-off for gameplay.....

I played QW like this for the longest time. Recently I switched to normal textures just as a matter of taste. I like how eg Warsow looks.

But then the sheer tasteless ugliness of many free open-source games made me not try them once.
There is a different between gfx-wanking and ugly. Quake is not ugly, it has dated looks. Just like old adventures, they look amazing if you are into that kind of graphics. They are not ugly. 
i never played QW like this ;) always 24 bits textures! 
Err, Correction 
There is quite something between gfx-wanking and ugly. 
The Wii 
Look at the Wii. Does it sell like hotcakes? Are people buying this system and playing its games? Do those games look like Xbox360 or PS3 quality? But people still play them? Yes? Ok then. 
Do they look like crap? No? OK then. 
They Kinda Do Look Like Crap.. 
Mii Avatars are hardly realistic. LEGO StarWars looks prettier than your average Mii!

I have a Wii - all it gets used for is bowling. I do enjoy a spot of bowling from time to time. My girlfreind likes the tennis and some of those other kids games......... (?!)

Willem you're missing the point. The point is that a LOT of people get Wiis and play them over the Wii's graphically superior counterpart. This indicates that graphics are not the main concern of games.

Having said that, yes, my comment about games boiling down to GAME PLAY is a bit of an oversimplification. But regardless, it's true. That's why they're video GAMES. If people just wanted pretty they would watch Transformers all day. But, since people need interaction and control, game play is what drives (should drive) design in games; graphics should follow design. (I'll admit that style has a lot to do with graphics, but I feel style is more important than having a super-high-poly post-apocalyptic super soldier-mutant guy. Different topic for a different debate.) 
hates blind people. Jerk! 
You barfed this nugget: "there may be an essential flaw in comparing a fast paced action game where you should people with rockets and rely on reactions to an ancient game of strategy and thought."

Where does speed chess come in on your trite dichotomy? And QW? There is no flaw in comparing them. 
#168 posted by RickyT23 [] on 2008/07/16 18:02:10

Bees ?
#169 posted by JPL [] on 2008/07/16 21:29:49
Where are the bees !!!???

is just saying he misses me because I have been on the run this week (the kid is not mine!) and I have had little time for the board. He knows bees and talk of bees is a garanteed way to make my knee jerk. Damn bees. 
There Are Pretty Looking Games With No Depth Of Gameplay 
the same as there are special-effectsy movies with no depth of character.

The fact that there are always more of one than the other is just proof that most people are more than content to "turn their brains off" as I'm always told I'm supposed to do before such movies and let their eyes do the drooling.

That's your problem, Frib. Stop expecting to actually be engaged, because only naive people have standards, and join the staring masses! 
...more whining too.

My point, BTW, isn't that DOom3 was amazing, nor that the gameplay was that great, just that the overall initial experience of playing was probably a lot better at the time than people, looking in retrospect, give it credit for.

And although I am bit of a graphics / look / atmosphere whore, I do think gameplay, particularly feel, is important. 
This Thread About Doom 4 Is Seriously Lacking In Doom 4 News 
here's a little gem you might have missed (summary courtesy of Shacknews):

Though powered by the same id Tech 5 technology as id's open-world shooter Rage, Doom 4 will be so detailed that it appears to run on "a totally new game engine," according to id co-founder and software engineer John Carmack.

The jump in graphical fidelity comes about as Doom 4 is targeted to run at 30 frames per second, whereas Rage will run at 60 frames per second. Carmack claims this allows id to throw "three times as much horsepower" at Doom 4.

"[Doom 4 is] going to be a 30Hz game," he told Maximum PC. "It's going to look like a totally new game engine on there, even though it's going to be built on the four years of effort that we spent developing this generation of technology."

the article in question is here:

Personally i'm more excited about Rage. id shooter + open-world = insta-spunk. If the art design and the atmosphere in the trailers alone isn't enough to make you empty your sack quicker than Father Christmas, then you should check your pulse. 
"empty your sack quicker than Father Christmas"

I'm not sure you're entirely familiar with how the male genitalia actually work... 
Saw the latest trailer, I did like the look of it. Not sure about racing but the style looked good.

Doom4, 30 FPS, hmmm. I always thought 30 FPS was the bare minimum for SP playability? 
I Get Confused 
with all the talk of "this game will run at 30hz".

From what I can gather, 30hz does not mean 30fps, but something to do with the frequency of updates done by the engine.

For example Carmack said that rage would run at 60hz as you need to extra control responsiveness for the car driving, where as a corridor shooter like doom you can get by with 30hz.

Please correctly if my arse has grown a mouth... 
I need less coffee... 
except he goes on to say that "this means we can throw 4 times as much detail at it", which suggests FPS. 
Good Point 
I think my brain kinda figured that with less updates per second you could cram more things into the scene before you start noticing the performance hit.

I dunno... NEED TECHIE HELP PLX! =) 
I Think 
with consoles it's extremely important to be above either 30hz or 60hz at all times, as the tvs refresh at 60hz and with 59 and sync you're essentially only seeing 30fps?

so, with a game you aim at either 30 or 60 fps. 
fuck the consoles and develop for a proper gaming platform... 
Proper gaming platform... Nintendo DS? (which can be chipped with a flash card and... kekekeke)

But I'm assuming Carmack is talking about server refresh/tick rates here (the same way D3 was locked at 60hz server refresh rate regardless of frames per second (to avoid the Q3 72/90/125/etc fps/jump speed glitches)), but if that's the case then the designers can put enough detail in for the game to run at only 30 or so FPS and not cause any control responsiveness lag... 
Maybe I'm Misunderstanding It 
but I assume he means Doom 4 will average 30fps on a 360/PS3.

Hello modern PC. Meet Doom 4. 
i'm pretty sure i've seen this type of thing before...

was it like project offset or something where they were (are?) planning to make the game run at 10 or 20 fps but use motion blur to hide the jerkiness... the game would only update at that speed too, sort of like how some physics engines run independently of game speed in most modern games.

i'm not sure i really get that, i mean, if you're firing a machine gun, for example, how then do you get the really fast light flicker from your gun if your engine is only refreshing and recalculating 10-20 times in a second. we're basically back at quake, where you fire the nailgun and the light can't flicker on and off because it's firing 10 times a second, and the game defaults to only updating 10 times a second. 
like a really shitty idea.

But muzzleflashes are rendering only, so it's not that difficult to do. 
I have a theory as to why so many people hate the gameplay, apart from some of ID's laziness in implementation (ie monster closets next to items, monsters spawning behind you, monsters behind doors).

You have to take damage in a fight.

That's the way the game is designed, you dont move that fast, some of the monsters move faster than you, where they dont you have restricted movement space.

That aspect seems to be compensated with a generous scattering of health and armour but if you dont like taking damage in a fight, that's hardly a consolation.

Now it could be that the higher difficulty levels have a lot more of the lazy gameplay ideas mentioned above, but ignoring that point, any thoughts? 
Monster Spawnage 
I have a theory as to why so many people hate the gameplay, apart from some of ID's laziness in implementation (ie monster closets next to items, monsters spawning behind you, monsters behind doors).

i think the monster closets triggered on item pickups (and more generally, any monster spawn tied to an obvious, but arbitrary trigger) are naff, because it is far too "mechanical" (i don't really know how else to describe it) - what i mean is that it's something that would only happen in a cheesy game, and doesn't exactly contribute to the immersion that id are trying achieve.

The other points - monsters behind doors, and monsters behind the player aren't too bad - they are the sort of things you would expect if you were a space marine fighting the xenomorphs on LV-426 - (the Alien series clearly being the primary influence with Doom). 
You have to take damage in a fight.

You are exactly right, that really seemed to be their one design focus. This goes back to my core complaint, about player ability versus player character ability. The game puts a slow character in fast situations, so the player himself can't ever really become 'good' at the combat, just lucky. So then designers can't challenge the player at all because the only clear strength he has left is that he can pick up items the designer gives him, so the design goal seemed to shift from 'put the player in danger from which he can survive and escape if he is good' to 'how can we fuck the player over?' 
Monster Spawning 
Spawning powerful enemies close to the player is the cheapest trap possible, and it became boring and repetitive after a couple of maps, there wasn't enough variation.

Being immersed in the game, only to have that immersion disrupted by events 100% out of my control sucked too often (agree with Nitin here). Perhaps the resulting lack of satisfaction/accomplishment is a reason why the gameplay annoyed so many.

The game puts a slow character in fast situations, so the player himself can't ever really become 'good' at the combat, just lucky.

You could always accelerate for a limited time (stamina), which was nice for realism, but being 'good' in D3 isn't just about aim and movement like an old-skool fps; I got owned many times by Imps just because I couldn't see properly and I cannot say that it was always fun, it felt often tedious. 
I think you can definitely learn to become better at the game, I certainly did after a few maps, but the improvement plateaus a lot quicker than in other games where you can continuously improve as a player.

That, of course, leaves you with the situation where a bit of luck is definitely needed which does diminish satisfaction/accomplishment but concurrently increases a sense of danger. Perhaps they went too far with this tradeoff?

As for the darkness aspect, I have to say I had no real problems on my screen barring a few instances where it was meant to be pitch black. Most the other times the dark areas were nicely contrasted with well placed lights so you were never 'blind'. 
I never really had trouble seeing, myself. My main gripe was weapons and movement, combined with a lot of similarity in level design and pacing. 
i had several areas where it was too dark to fight and still there were enemies. Mostly weak ones, but still, very annoying. 
... and I think this is how to make a frightening game... who knows what will come next entering a dark area... it generates stress and tense, shall I go there, run, risk to die...hmmm ?... On top of this just add good sounds for the ambience, and you're in: this is how DOOM works >D 
you need to provide the player with options then. 
The Only Good Option... 
.. is survive or die :P 
Ok, But 
It's a game.

Presenting the player with near certain death just means they'll quickload until they either stop playing or know all the mechanics inside out.

What I mean is that having a demon rip its way out of a cupboard to attack you is scary. Seeing it happen twenty times from the same cupboard isn't.

Ideally I reckon the idea is to present the player with the illusion of nigh-impossible odds.

In the same way a normal sized sword in a game is going to look like a toothpick - although various games take it too far and have the characters waving motorbike sized weapons around. 
i know its about doom4, but i get 404 error when i click "view all threads" to look for the d3 one.

can anyone point me in the right direction for awesome doom3 sp levels and mods? kinda like a lvl for d3 sp maps?

your reward will be a cosmic yay in the form of jesus wishpering to the ears of the universe. 
you get a 404 on THIS website, when clicking "view all threads?" 
Jah Mon 
yes, i got a 404 error whenever i tried to visits the "view all threads" link on this site. not just recently, but for a long, long time.

i don't know, but sometimes when i was on the mac and came here, it all worked ok! then on the pc it didn't work. then on the mac it didn't work, but on the pc did...

thanks for the link daz. my lazyness stopped me from doing a google search, though i somehow end up with doomwadstation links and i gave up on all life when visiting such website. 
It is really saying "404" or are you just saying that and mean "some error"?
I remember some people having a problem with the bigger threads. Their ISP did a time-out on the connection because it took a while to load, maybe it's that? 
It Was Actually... 
the server taking slightly too long to serve the page, and some browsers had a quicker timeout than others.

The browsers give a completely useless "can't connect to server or DNS error" type message, of course.

Anyway, I had fixed that to most people's satisfaction like a year ago, but maybe it's back. I'll test. 
just tried with internet explorer, which was the problem browser last time, but it works.

Nakasuhito, what browser/platform are you on? And, can you test to see if the page works when you are not logged in? 
Split the 'view all threads' page into groups of 25 like thread views are now?

sort by title/date posted/date of last post/name of poster would be handy ... �_� 
Carmack, who agreed that complaints of the "contrived nature of monsters hiding in closets" and overly dark environments of Doom 3 were "completely valid." 
i would've been pissed if the game i was working on was summarily dismissed because the company owners one day finally figured out it actually sucks.

oh well. :P 
Survival horror sells badly? Ok, I'll bear that in mind. As corporate bullshit speak.

contrived nature . . . sounds like a post from func.

When I see the title of this thread I always wonder who posted it.

Let's hope Rage is everything it's cracked up to be. 
seems a lot of people forget that Doom 3 was four years ago. Four years is plenty of time for a game development team to shift their design philosophy or publically acknowledge the weaknesses in their previous games. Happens all the time. 
actually i said that without reading the article. So yeah, it seems they just deciding to can "Darkness" one afternoon. Cool.

i would've been pissed if the game i was working on was summarily dismissed because the company owners one day finally figured out it actually sucks.

Actually, having a game canned because it sucks is a million times better than having your game canned because of other reasons. 
It's often even better than having it not canned despite the general suckiness... -___- 
The suckiness qouta breaches a predetermined threshold that means your team leaders are fucktards. 
'Announces' a prototype anyway? 
Coffee needed. 
Doom 4

2 day-old news now, but it's essentially confirmation from Carmack, that Doom 4 will not be about darkness, or monster closets, or survival horror; instead the focus will be on blowing away hordes of demons with heavy weapons, and the game will be more about "winning" as opposed to being "frightened". 
I'm smelling a coop game, here. Maybe with one team playing the demonic horde (or doing some "imp-herding"?). 
I Always Wanted A Doom Mod 
where everyone plays imps and stuff except for one dude, who has The Guns.

whoever gets the kill on the dude gets to be the dude with The Guns next. 
That Is Genious 
That Is AvP 
multiplayer game mode 
I Know 

kell you're never around we have so much to discuss you and i 
"For me, that's incorrect. I really like how Quake looks. It exudes a personality that few games are able to match. The graphics are a LARGE part of the Quake experience for me.

And nothing you said refutes what I said. Gameplay is clearly NOT the only thing that matters."

I agree with you, quake, while dated, is appealing to look at (in high resolution), it is a pretty interesting visual experience. I'd say it aged much better than quake 2.

Regarding Doom3 I think it suffered from some pretty bad design decisions. It wasn't a worthy successor to the doom\quake formula and it was overall very mediocre.

The doom\quake games had better pacing, level design, monster positioning, ambush sequences etc.

Also, only a small handful of a very small niche of players actually downgrade graphics to shit in multiplayer. I confirm this. For me this is fun-killing, perpetuated by fun hating people. They talk about gameplay, not about fun. Videogames should be a relaxing even if slightly challenging experience, not a sport where you resort to every fun killing measure to win. 
I - Really - Like - Doom 3 - : ) 
I get tired of people bashing it.
I remember when it came out it was MIND - BLOWING.
The visuals were just as Revolutionary as Quake 2 or Quake 1 or Doom over Wolfenstein. Fantastic.

I would make levels for doom 3 but I dont know how. I'm sure however that it would take too long.

Doom 3 was class. It just wasn't as classy as HL2, which is why it often received a bashing. I guess Quake had it's Duke3D and Q3A had its UT, so they figured they could do it again but got a little too cocky this time around and lost the popularity contest.

I thought ID managed to get the balance between story and level design just right with D3. These days, most level design sucks because the designers are forced to adhere to a strict beginning, middle and end so they try so hard to shoehorn the rubbish plot devices in that they actually forget to immerse the player in action, whereas Doom 3 was all about the immersion from beginning to end, throwing the odd short cut scene or diary entry in to give it all some context.

I also liked the multiplayer side. It's fairly slow paced but still nicely balanced so you don't get pwnd within five milliseconds of spawning by some bunnyhopping maniac.

In spite of all that, I'm glad they're taking Doom 4 in another direction because I like new stuff. 
Doom3 wasn't as bad as many (myself included) make out. I played it again the other day and it has its moments. But asking a hard core community of mappers / modders to put up with lazy design isn't going to get you anywhere.

The story was terrible, for me. I've seen better plotting in an episode of Xena.

Saying that it only got a bad rap because hl2 came out at more or less the same time doesn't cut it either. This is Id software; they invented FPS, they have no excuse for not blowing hl2 out of the water. It's like they couldn't be bothered, because they knew it'd sell anyway. 
"They Invented FPS" 
England invented Football but we didn't even qualify for this years European cup. :(

If you ask me ID are still at the top of their game and doing what they do best, but what they do isn't necessarily what the general public want anymore. HL1 changed the direction of the FPS, and HL2 improved upon that direction. Doom 3 made some halfhearted attempts to live up to new expectations, but obviously HL2 was always going to do that better because Valve have a head start on that front. 
You mean "UT had it's Q3A", right?? Since you seemed to be talking about major games (former) that had pale imitations (latter)... 
Doom 3 had a terrible story, that's true, but I didn't think the level design was as terrible as people say, it was just very logical, tight and cramped, and militaristic in the way that Tim Willits has always liked it. I would have preferred a faster paced, hectic, manic crazy out of your mind kind of gaming experience like the first two, but what we got was still very immersive, and some of my favorite parts was listening to the PDA recordings. It also really helped that I used a good CRT to play it on, because I think with LCD you cannot get darkness looking right, and I had turned down the brightness setting all the way. 
I guess I was disappointed in Doom 3 because I wanted a sequel to Doom.


Disappointed, but in no way surprised. (See Quake "sequels"). 
WTF Shambler 
You are "ranking" UT above Q3A? 
get Shambler start on Q3A. 
The names of their games only matter so much. Quake II was supposed to be a different game entirely, but for legal and commercial reasons the same name was chosen again. Nonetheless I fear Doom 4 will just be a lot like Doom 3. I don't think they have much creativity at id anymore, what with Tom Hall and Romero and McGee and others long since gone. 
It Will Be A Short Debate. 
UT was the better game, Q3 had the better engine. QED! 
I would like to be an art director there and work on my own game for them which would be a revitalization of the Space Harrier / Night Striker genre, but for the Nintendo DS. It would use both screens in simulatenously 2:1 aspect ratio action ( a lot of flying room). I think a modification of the ORCS & ElVES engine would do just fine, and I *would* want it to be sprite-based, because that is more exciting, coming at choo, than is like seeing smoothly-scaled and rotated polygons. 
> UT 
Epic has never managed to rub me the right way (although I haven't played any of their UE3 stuff). 
I Likr Both 
I would probably prefer UT gameplay, if push came to shove though. 
And why were the brown inducing commandos from the alpha replaced with crappy z-tek soldiers, basically cloned from any other FPS. 
is completely spot on regarding the UT vs Q3A debate.

While Q3A engine allowed for better mods and other custom content, if you compare stock game vs stock game, UT beats Q3A hands down. 
Had better default maps too, mind you, both games had their fair share of really average maps, but Quake3 just didn't have many good ones at all in my opinion.

Quake3 engine is the best though! 
doom3 isn't so bad but IT is flawed. 
and I mean "not flawed" not in the sense of "it is not perfect" but "it has some pretty severe flaws, while managing barely to not be 100% shit" 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Q3A 
That was deliberate. To show my contempt. 
UT Was Fun 
but only in the same way that it's fun to dive in to Quake progs and make the rocket launcher fire a gazillion homing missiles every time you fire and change the axe to do 8078798 dmg. It was OTT fun that's best enjoyed at a LAN where you can shake your fist angrily at the guy next to you.

Q3A was a more balanced approach to competitive play and in that regard I think it succeeded. It takes a much better developer to create a considered, if slightly 'minimalistic' game than it does to just shove every single weapon/powerup/level gimmick/graphical feature you possibly can in to one box and hope for the best, which is what Epic did.

The original Q3A levels varied in quality, but most of the lesser ones were improved considerably with Team Arena, I think. 
Wherein Everyone Posts Their Opinions Of Doom3 Again 
To show my contempt.

your contempt seems more like a pose throughout the years. If you can't be arsed to read some console cmd page and make a proper config: ok, but y the h8 homie ?

if you compare stock game vs stock game, UT beats Q3A hands down.

I completely agree with your argumentation, good points there...

Q3A was a more balanced approach to competitive play and in that regard I think it succeeded.

spot on, just look where the real good players play today, before stating opinions as fact. 
Fuck Q3A Up The Arse. 
It was shit. The feel was shit. The player visibility was shit. The bouncing arcade bollox were shit. Yes I had a proper config, a proper config that allowed me to adequately control it and feel the shitness.

I tried the demo and it was shit. Against my better judgement and in the interest of giving it a fair go and appeasing any people who would accuse my contempt for being a "pose", I bought the full game and it was shit. I gave it away.

UT I kept playing for quite a while. Sure it was a different feel to the classic Quake style of deathmatch but it at least it was a good game in both gameplay and overall. 
How was the feel shit? If you ask me, one of the things ID have always done better than anybody else is make the player and weapon physics feel weighty, whereas UT has always felt to me like I'm walking on air and shooting feathers rather than bullets.

If I were to level one complaint against Q3A it would be aimed specifically at the aesthetic design. The levels all looked very nice in their respective themes, but that was compromised by the stupid day-glo Nintendo-wannabe powerup art. 
Weapon Damage Feedback 
was pretty shit (cpma fixes this though). 
The airspeed for me. Very spacey. 
Jeez, Shambler 
What, did you start crying after the bots beat you? 
In UT? 
weapon dmg feedback in stock q3 is great :( esp. with blood 
So great they had to add a silly little beep sound each time you hit someone! 

Lunaran For President 
Zwiffle For Vice President 

Oh Yeah 
I forgot the damage """feedback""" in Q3A was TOTALLY CUNTED UP. Guess I've successfully blocked out of my mind the horror of: Damage feedback where the on-screen intensity of the feedback correlates solely to how much health you have left, not to how much damage you've taken. I.e. if you had 20 health left and took 2 damage, you got MORE damage feedback than in you had 100 health and took 50 damage....despite the latter being far more serious damage and change in your health situation.

Can't believe they did that and can't believe players found it at all acceptable. 
the ut weapons were a bunch of arse. that's why i preferred q3a. 
Doom3 did it exactly the same way, including the big red decal right in your face, only with the horrible view kick angles to boot. Honestly, I couldn't really believe you found that at all acceptable.

So is "damage feedback" really why the entire game, engine, and custom map scene of Q3A is completely worthless to you? 
more tolerable in sp IMHO. 
Q3A sucks because the feel is like you're controlling the guy with thin rubber strings. QW in comparison is crisp, solid and smooth. Like you were on the server physically.

Of course most of the Q3A maps are huge open spaces too and the players move pathetically slow. So no movement, just rail aim. The sophisticated ballet that is QW is missing as well.

Haven't played UT.

I have no hope for mainstream FPS games anymore. On the other hand, if you want a business hint as a small developer... 
To start with; I liked both Q3A (after patching/CPM) and UT. I mapped for Q3 because I prefered the engine.

But, Q3 out of the box was a pile of shite. Everyone seems to be forgetting how much has been patched by OSP/CPM (which arose for Q3 rather than UT not due to superior gameplay, but a superior engine for modding).

Q3A was a more balanced approach to competitive play and in that regard I think it succeeded.

Armour that ticks down? No different grades of armour? 125 spawn health?

If I wanted to play a game based around moving as fast as possible and passing certain points at the right time (that'd be running all the armours because of the armour tick down) I'd play a racing game. Q3 is supposed to be a shooter, and frankly UT had way better combat, the dodging/double jumping, while useless for running around the map very fast, made for much more exciting and skillful combat situations.

I play these games to shoot things, not to see how fast I can trick jump around a map. I imagine Shambler does the same, hence the Q3 hatred.

And as for a majority of caffeine wired ADHD kids telling me how an entire genre should work because "that's how pros should/do play", see the critisms of the Painkiller design in the PC games thread... 
Damn, I meant minority, not majority (ofc).

I was so proud I managed to make that post without personally insulting anyone I forgot to proof read it :( 
yeah I always thought UT as a boxed product was far superior to Q3A. I'm not talking about which game is more "pro", or what had the best community-made content.

Bit weird to think those games are nearly a decade old now.

Nice thread about Doom 4 btw. 
Are they making Doom4??

Sweet dude! 
Id Or Eye-dee? 
they're too busy making a racing car game. id owe me their souls for that. 
one of the guys that used to be at big rooster worked at id a long time ago (like wolf3d ago) and said even back then they'd joke about renaming the company "It isn't fucking I-D-software software"

they probably shouldn't have capitalized both letters. 
Of Course... 
they haven't even been consistent on the capitalization. Seems like they've been ID, Id, and id. 
and iD :) 
If They Changed Their Company Logo 
to something, like:

Take the lid off your id, and blow some shit up

There would be no problem. 
i always thought it was I.D., until i watched a video with that long haired fabio (todd hollenstead) the other day calling it ihdd. what the fuck is an id anyway.

ok so i just looked it up...

Id, ego, and super-ego are the three parts of the "psychic apparatus" defined in Sigmund Freud's structural model of the psyche; they are the three theoretical constructs in terms of whose activity and interaction mental life is described. According to this model, the uncoordinated instinctual trends are the "id"; the organised realistic part of the psyche is the "ego," and the critical and moralizing function the "super-ego."

more pointless knowledge :) 
You Mean 
Take the lid off your id, and blow up some shid

(all our games cost forty quid)

(check them all out in this brand new vid) 
Oh No He Didn't 
oh yes I did 
Lun's Shameless Bid 
never getting rid
of his life as kid
acting age mid 
OMG - He Said "Quid" 
Do I sound like a flid? 
where did lun-aran hid'?
down there in the pit,
wrestling with a brit
who quite looks like a twit 
OK That's It 
I hereby cancel Doom4 just to get you all to shut the fuck up. 
wins trhead

request close plz 
Making Lyrics That Rhymes To A Companies Name Must Be The Nerdiest 
thing evar. 
I Was Just Proud To Use The Word 
FLID, thats F - L - I - D ! !!

No, Don't Close It, 
this is some great stuff; it makes us nerd not dorks, nerd implies some intelligence. 
as a prime example:

it makes us nerd not dorks

it makes us dorks, not nerds.

That Canadian beer I drink has finally wrestled the last remaining brain cell in my head down for the count. 
Sure Q3's Art Direction Was Pretty Lame 
but to me unreal and UT always looked about as good as this: 
Replaying Alpha Labs Section 
of Doom 3 last week, I realized I was subcounsiously employing a tactic as I moved through the rooms and corridors. Upon entering an area, I would scan it looking for detailed modeling and keep my back oriented to those models. Monster closets were only made with simple brush work, so it was a safe assumption to
make while playing. Imp sized areas would become pretty much self evident. 
I.D. software sounds way better than "eeehddd" 
"Game Design is 99% programming and 1% design" - John Carmack

That's why. 
"eeehddd" ? 
it's supposed to rhyme with "rid" not "red" 
"Design is law" - John Romero

id games before romero left: awesome

carmack games without romero: systematic, methodical, repetitive, uninteresting

romero games without carmack: unfinished piles of unchecked ambition

see? it all makes sense 
We Really Need To Get Those Two Back Together... 
Okay Here's The Plan 
I'll invite Romero over, saying it'll be a casual get together. You get Carmack over here with the promise an iPhone contract. When they meet up, we'll lock them in a room until they work out their differences or one cannibalizes the other to surive.

Something big is happening here, people. 
That sounds very similar to a Strafe Left strip I read a while ago on RPS... 
#310 FTW 
Something big is happening here, people.

and it's happening in my pants 
lay off the vindaloo dude 
Speaking Of Pants 
wasn't this thread about doom4 
"Game Design is 99% programming and 1% design" - John Carmack

One of the stupidest quotes I've ever seen attributed to a smart person. Is it legit? 
Got it from 'On Game Design' by Chris Crawford.

Good read, btw. 
John 'JBJ' Carmack EYHO 
99% Tech, 1% Design 
Gets you rubbish like UT or FEAR. Design gets you Quake, BioShock, Fallout 3... etc. 
In Carmack's case Tech and Design are almost the same. 
Design gets you Quake

The whole point of Quake is that they scrapped the original design and just slapped a bunch of random shit together. 
Good designers know when what they've got isn't working and take appropriate action.

*ahem* FEAR *ahem* 
i'm sure carmack said that in 1992 or whatever, when "design" also meant you had to be an assembly coder or some shit.

this discussion is going nowhere. 
To Be Fair 
There was some sour grapes in the comment.

Doesn't mean it wasn't said, or not easily taken out of context, now.

Assembly coding was maybe five years earlier than that, though. 
yeah, they slapped shit together and it's still fun 12 years later.

meanwhile, they cop a squat and concentrate for three years and squirt out Doom3. 
the was still some assembly code in Quake. Just a couple of functions, though. Which reminds me, i need to get around to removing that... 
Corporate Nonesense 
Forula = money

So why is japan making so much. Alot of the bigshots like to come across as pioneers, but the truth is that if anyone hasn't done it before and made cash, they don't want to know.

The most important thing to have in any concept is 'this game is like game X, but better'. 
Forula = Formula 
Please Do Metl 
I can't do a clean rebuild of fitzquake because I can't get the assembly converter build step to function consistently but I can't risk wiping out the .objs :( 
You May Need An Old Copy 
of the ML.exe that came with VC Studio 6. The MASM pack version is likely to still work fine, but if not, I can put it up on line. 
You guys seem to have missed an important point; Zwiffle apparently has access to an early release copy of Fallout 3!

(That or his post was opinion based hyperbole rather than having the slightest grounding in reality) 
Fine, if you don't think Fallout3's gameplay looks amazing, then replace with Team Fortress 2. Problem solved. 
Assembly In The Quake Source 
you can safely remove all of it because there are fallback functions. You just need to uncomment them in the appropriate files and remove the asm files. Easy! 
right, i think it's everything inside "#ifdef id386" blocks 
After playing through Serious Sam II and then coming back to some Doom3 single player levels, I found the walking speed of the player to be excruciatingly slow. ID are morons for making it so slow. I guess it was so they could make smaller levels because it takes so bloody long to walk through them. Cheap copout imo. Anyway, I decided to do a search to find a walk speed hack. There isn't one really, the only way to fix it is type pm_walkspeed "230" (seems to be a good speed) into the console everytime you play, but shit does it make the gameplay more fun! Way more fun! r_lightScale "4" (or 3) is a good one too, to brighten the contrast up.

Hmm guess this is supposed to be about D4. Well, I hope D4 has a much faster walking speed. 
After playing through Serious Sam II

After the first two in the series I thought this 'franchise' couldn't get more silly/childish, but this is absolutely unsufferable: the intro, the music, the models, the sounds...hello ? (glad to have picked it up for 5€ in the bargain bin)

ID are morons for making it so slow

I disagree, it's one of the few things that actually enhances the game imo, combined with the limited stamina; monsters are few and generally far between and the game is based more around mood/suspense than on pure action. So if you want to speed around like in Quake :)

Anyway, I decided to do a search to find a walk speed hack

u lama xD 
i disagree with you sielwolf :)

i find doom3 infinitely more fun after setting pm_walkspeed to 280.

also, kona: if you extract /def/player.def from the pak file, you can modify the pm_walkspeed (and other settings, of course) in there instead of having to manually change it every time you play.
i also changed 'pm_staminarate' to 200 so you have infinite stamina and then changed 'pm_runspeed' to 80 so that the game behaves as if you have autorun on and shift makes you walk. 
oh sweet. although i can't ever imagine a time i'd want to 'walk' haha. i also put the speed up to 4000... that was interesting :D i had to turn it off after a while because it would probably make me sick.

sielwolf: the slow walkspeed definitely makes the game more intense, considering your slower than half the monsters, but i also think its not quite as action/adrenaline pumping. depends what you want out of a game. i want action! :D 
Yeah, I Love Slow Walk Speeds In Games 
It's awesome when monsters are throwing fireballs at me and I know I can't move my bounding box far enough to avoid them to make it even worth bothering to strafe around so I just shoot back and hope I win thinking "boy what a great game" 
it'd be like a fps on a console; don't worry about dodging anything, just stand there and fire. 
necros i deleted /def/player.def completely out of the pk4, put it in it's own folder with changes, and it still wouldn't work. how did u do it? 
you shouldn't have had to delete it from the pak.

as long as it's in /doom3/base/def/player.def, it should override no problem.
the line you want to look at is 780. 
There Is 
an interesting thing about 'g_armorProtection' by default its value == 0.3 (q green armor) i think its more comfortable with 0.6 value (q YA) 
isnt that when you press run and direction key (ie a quick dodge of sorts)? 
I would play doom3 for a while and realize my pinky was getting sore from instinctively holding down shift all the time, like maybe if I pressed it hard enough I'd enjoy myself 
i disagree with you sielwolf :)

what boldness is this ?

like maybe if I pressed it hard enough I'd enjoy myself

press harder and you will enjoy yourself

My point was:

- DooM3: scary game,
default speed = walking = fitting design
stamina = realism = fitting design

- crap like Halo/Red Faction: (where the running speed feels like walking speed - .... 
My Point Is 
turn walking speed up and play one difficulty higher = much more fun 
I broke my pinky playfighting with a freind.
So I'm totally screwed. Cant even play my guitar properly.

It's driving me insane.

Whaaaa - whaaaaaa !!!! Ooooowww-w (sniff) :O

I would have enjoyed Doom 3 a bit better if they just pumped the walking speed up a *tiny* bit. I've said it before, I'll say it again.

Also I've been playing it with "Dentons Enhanced Doom 3" mod. Which doesn't change that much really. Just a few tweaks here and there. And simnultaneously Dafama2k's parralax mapping mod. Which simulates parralax mapping. Supposedly. The elevators look smart anyway.....

(shields head in anticipation of flogging) 
Parralax 2.0 That Is 
The Fuck? 
Hey, Your Name Isn't Brushwork Anymore 
does that mean the book is dead? 
The book was stillborn, lun.

Just finished this last night and although it sticks to the same rigid system of Doom3 - even simplifying the email trawling for lockers into cut+pasted messages - it felt more fun to play.

Bigger guns, more diverse environments, more fearsome enemies, including the lost zombie commandos, though sadly without their original snfx.

The powerups were a bit at-odds with the nature of the environments - you need souls to power your artefact, which gives you invincibility, frozen time and berserk when fully charged and the levels and filled with corpses, souls ready for extraction. There's also lots of health and ammo, with most of the combat being player at one end of a corridor, enemies at other end - shoot.

I didn't die, playing on veteran, until I reached the final boss.

What I'd like for Doom4:

Roaming levels - doesn't need hubs or anything, just levels that consist of more than a lineal route A to B.

Dump the Email - keep the PDA system there, but the trawling email idea seems to assume that the player will be bored enough of playing to do it. Or be forced to in order to get 20 shotgun shells. The occasional audio log is good to listen to whilst you're playing, but reading email is pretty tedious.

Build on the powerups system.

Bin the 'grabber' - there's no need to include a gravity gun.

Finally, it'd be nice if the player had two hands and is able to hold a pistol in one and torch in the other. Just like Jack Bauer. 
ROE Was Really Good 
The dubble shotgun was relly cool. 
i liked the gravity gun. except that it slowed down gameplay a little. best thing about ROE was the double shotty. 
still think it was worse than D3 though. 
While The Thread's Up 
post 339 was classic Lunaran sarcasm; I mean I agree with the point (in fact that REALLY frustrated me about Doom3 and I hope they do a lot differently and don't let Carmack's "design decisions" rape their game with Doom4), but even if I didn't that's still the kind of post I enjoy. 
Allegedly, this will be the Doom 4 title music: "Humans"

No confirmation from any source but Doom 4's audio director and the composer weren't very pleased about it, apparently.!/Mick_Gordon/status/156889442970378240

The tweets are unrelated. 
Trying to be more indifferent, but I can't. 
play some more Doom 1 
Hmmm Yeah 
About the graphics and gameplay importance debate above.

I would say graphics yes are important. The tech, more precisely the eye candy tech, though is absolutely not anymore.
Quake 3 engine candy is plenty enough to pull off pleasing visuals. I would argue Q1 engine is too but opinions may differ. It is wholly a question of design and intention not candy tech. The latest eye candy is just arms race, it does not serve fun.

What tech does serve fun is engine capabilities, performance, draw distance, level size, loading times etc etc

And as to "no one will play an ugly game today" I will say to that Minecraft. Oh its not ugly really ? Or it is but its not really because its done on purpose/fits the purpose, has character...? Ah its the gamplay is it ?

ID should of separated Engine development and Game development. 
I'm Confused 
How are you defining "graphics" and "eye candy" exactly? 
I Mean 
you mention them as two seperate things, it seems. 
Minecraft isn't the greatest example in this sort of argument. It's lightning in a bottle. How many games with crappy graphics sell really well? Most of them go nowhere, fast.

Customers want the game to be fun AND look good. You can't focus on one side and ignore the other.

Not really looking to get into an argument about specific games or individual tastes but I'll say that on the whole - you need both. 
But there's the aesthetic to consider - nothing looked like Minecraft until it came out.

Also, in defence of pixel art, there's shit pixel art and good pixel art - here's some good pixel art: 
I did not express this clearly but I meant to define a separation in the functional rendering / architecture / draw distance / lighting / scripting interaction etc with the typical nasty eye candy "overlays": Blur, HDR, Bump mapping, particle effects etc etc

What about KISS and Less is more for fucks sake ?
I turned off HDR when playing Necrovision yesterday, and yeah, it looked fucks better without. 
What I mean is hasn't the tech come far enough to start considering KISS and Less is more principles. We are not really limited anymore in function as to engines. All this energy wasted on one-upping the competitors ultimately useless eyecandy... 
> The latest eye candy is just arms race, it does not serve fun.


> Quake 3 engine candy is plenty enough to pull off pleasing visuals.

Pure horseshit.

I do agree that in recent years, graphics have got to the stage where pretty much any game with current tech looks as stunning as it needs to for my purposes at least - Crysis 3, Tomb Raider, Metro Last Light, Dead Space 3, Rage, I'm talking to you - and objectively any current/future graphical increases are going to be increasingly incremental and decreasingly significant. And therefore we have got to a graphical level playing field where if you're creating with a current engine then your graphics are guaranteed to be good and what you really need to stand out is gameplay, innovation, themes, creativity etc etc. Or just fucking churn out a shitty COD clone, why not make it MP only and stick fucking mechs in as well as if that will fool anyone.

BUT this is a fuck of a way before Q3A tech, FFS. 
Before - Beyond. 
Go fuck your face. 
You can do 'pleasing visuals' in any generation. Tech might evolve but aesthetic principles are universal. 
'Just because we can' proves a terrible design methodology on a daily basis. 
That�s so true! 
I really think it would be something to see a serious company revert to an older, simpler engine, hire top of the line artists and gameplay designers and focus on simplifying/streamlining asset creation, removing any engine limits and especially insuring a constant pure 60fps that never ever ever waivers from that ONCE.

Stick to it hard, believe in it, and do it fucking well! Then make sure the marketing campaign focuses on placatingthe "bwahaha its old tech" bad press to make sure people give it a try. 
Sounds Great. 
...and doomed to sales failure :P 
Although To Be Honest.... 
....Dishonoured kinda did that. Strictly previous-gen GFX standard, looked a lot like Source....BUT strong theme, strong style, and great gameplay. Dunno whether it will set any trends but it was certainly a good game. 
Valve does this continuously no? TF2, Portal, L4D, they are all art and design over crazy visual tech, and with a fairly dated base engine (source).

And yes, all three of those are great games. 
Good Point, Well Made. 
Valve do all kinds of technical innovations in each game, just the rendering that's lagging behind. 
I really think it would be something to see a serious company revert to an older, simpler engine, hire top of the line artists and gameplay designers and focus on simplifying/streamlining asset creation, removing any engine limits and especially insuring a constant pure 60fps that never ever ever waivers from that ONCE.

Sounds like Rage. It was lighter than Doom3 in a lot of ways. They just pulled all the stops art wise with the unique texturing.
Shame they couldn't put in 200 gigs rather than the 25 they ended up with. Hope they stick to the pipeline, Rage is almost unmatched artistically.

What I'd really like is to render racing-the-beam style. I play Q3 at 250 fps on my 60hz monitor and it's a way smoother experience than if I vsync. If we could take an old-tech approach and just send scanlines to the monitor that would allow for really low latency and you could run everything at a much higher pace. Actually I think 60 fps is kinda tame, go 600 fps and have your screen evenly divided into 10 tearlines :P
That would be perfect for an e-sport kinda marketed game. 
Hey guys what's goin on this thre- Oh. 
It's Coming. 
What cunt put no space between Doom and the 4. 
Guess What 
My Doom 4 
Couldn't sleep so I was thinking about this new Doom. They shouldn't have made it take place on earth. I know it's logical (Doom 3 was a remake of Doom 1 and this would be a remake of Doom 2: Hell on Earth). However, back in those days we didn't have the graphical power to accurately display earth in a game. So many games already take place on earth and I for one have a hard time imagining Doom on earth without losing that typical Doom feeling. Darksiders did it and although it was a great game, the earth sections we're definitively the weaker parts. Besides, as a sci-fi horror fan, I think it's a setting that's underused.

Instead they should focus on what made Doom 2 great. It was more open, it had bigger fights and a larger scale overall. I really hope they don't try to mimic COD and stick to smooth run and gun gameplay with hordes of demons. No RPG stuff please. Also, they suck at doing story driven stuff. If I were them I would take a good look at Aliens and the Dead Space games for inspiration. Make it a sequel to Doom 3 and have it start with a marine battalion being sent to Mars to investigate the distress calls. Have it take place on the ruined UAC basis and hire a talented writer.

For context I would start by focus on finding out what happened. After that, the focus should be on retrieving the gate that allows the demons to come through. You could make it that the marines have to retrieve that gate, get it on board of the ship so it can be shipped to a space station where scientist can figure out how to close it for good. Of course ending in sending you with the marines though and finish it off in Hell. This allows for a variation in settings (Mars, space ship and station (Dead Space) and Hell). I would have the game switch between moments you are alone (tension, horror) and moments you work with squads. This should help pacing. You could also use zero gravity for some awesome fights (again, Dead Space).

Drop in and drop out coop would be a given. Have players team up against the demons. Also, full fledged multiplayer, including a horde modus and of course mod support (which is unlikely due to IdTech5 it's nature). Biggest selling point would be massive fights that aren't scripted. So you got big set pieces but not the COD kind. Destructible environment, secrets and no more monster closets. Also, well lit environments (let it make sense) and dark where it needs to be. No switching between flashlight and gun. No mandatory vehicle sections please unless it works in the game's advantage.

That's what my Doom would be. 
Uh... Looks Like My Post Got Deleted Somehow... 
...but I have the sneaking suspicion this is gonna be some more of what we don't need.

Gameplay on rails, RPG elements, mandatory vehicle runs... you know, that groundbreaking stuff that make you go "WOW! This is fuckin' useless and pretestuous!". 
The Silent 
Yeah, another Quake 4 
The demons have UAC on their guns. I suppose this means it's going to mean "experiment gone wrong" rather than opening a gate to hell. 

At any rate, I wish they would adopt a stylized look rather than the hyper realistic stuff. Faster rendering of enemies means MORE enemies on the screen. Get back to that arcade feel of the original Dooms. Fast movement, lots of enemies, story be damned.

But they won't, of course. 
Also, getting back to tactical choices during combat would be nice. Who's the biggest threat in the room? How can I deal with it? Attack it directly, start an in-fight, shoot a barrel ... maybe take out the smaller dudes first to clear the field a little ...

Don't just teleport 2 imps behind me and call it done. 
Hit The Nail On The Head! 
I'm also less interested in hyper real graphics. I'd rather have something that isn't quite state of the art and something that simply stays true to the original game. I think the new Wolf game modernised the game without sacrificing on the gameplay mechanics. 
Did I Get That Word Wrong? 
Well, sory 'bout that. 
Just not a word I've ever come across ... even half stumps Google. 
I Think He Meant Pretentious. 
Stylized Visuals 
I agree; it's like people are afraid of making videogames that look like they might be videogames (!) 
I Hope They 
Hire some designers this time around. Or let the ones they have do their work.

Or farm it out to a company that remembers how to make fun FPS games. 
"I agree; it's like people are afraid of making videogames that look like they might be videogames (!)"

It's coming back into fashion though. We're doing Fortnite here, and if you look at E3 there was Crackdown 3 and Sunset Overdrive. 
Definitely pretentious. 
Hmm... I See... 
...I suppose I fell victim of a "false friend"... What I meant is "something used as an excuse for something else".

SorRy about my engRish... 
Agree Willem et al completely about the visuals/ gameplay. I remember reading all about how the next instalment would be action oriented an, I thought, a kind of old school feel but this video makes me immediately pessimistic. 
That Wasn't Necessarily Directed To You Silent 
Same Feeling Here, Drew... 
... the teaser smells bad. 
Yeah. I just saw the hyper realistic cyberdemon and kind of got immediately pessimistic. It's like nobody over there understands their own franchise. 
I Have To Admit 
my excitement level for sunset overdrive, crackdown and fortnite are at the bare minimum.

It's like they want to take the look of Team Fortress but don't actually understand why the design is so fantastic. 
to be fair, even Valve didn't understand why their own design for TF2 was so fantastic and have done everything they can to drive a once good game into the ground. 
Off On A Tangent ... 
Somehow I always felt that TF2 was on the border of being too stylized and not stylized enough. I think it's mostly in the shading though, it's too clean and cg like vs the Leyendecker inspiration. It's kind of like those comics with really nice linework and that awful digital airbrushed coloring. Feel the same about games like Borderlands. Seems like you just can't try to make something look like a drawing and put phong shading on it at the same time. Though In their defense, NPR is damn hard to get just right. 
This trailer is really "appealing".. I love the mystery around all this.. a CyberDemon, the same door sound, the dark gloom around the beast... That sounds fuckingly promising !!! 
The cyberdemon was just wide enough, I thought they had made the mancubus taller, until they pulled far enough out to show horns and the single cannon. 
I'm Cautiously Optimistic 
My mind is telling me no, but my body is telling me yes.

I like the rugged, asymmetrical look. However, the face/horns looked kinda stock/uninspired. That shot could easily be mistaken as Diablo from a Diablo 3 cinematic.

It's just a teaser, so no point in reading too much into it.

I just hope ZeniMax is being thoughtful, tasteful and above all, careful with this IP. Submitting a weak entry to such an iconic and historically important franchise would do much more harm than just making a few gamers angry. 
"It's just a teaser, so no point in reading too much into it."

I disagree. If you're doing a teaser, you're doing it to (a) announce the game and (b) set the tone. This sets a tone of hyper realism. 
I agree on Willem disagreement: a teaser shall reflect what you'll experiment in game, else it is pointless... 
"my excitement level for sunset overdrive, crackdown and fortnite are at the bare minimum."

I agree fifth, none of them I'm excited for. Well certainly not crackdown since it's xbox only so they can fuck right off with that.

stylised graphics is a bit like a gimmick that's very hit or miss, and easy to get sick of it fast. can you imagine if every game was cel-shaded? NO THANKS! but uber-realistic does always look good, assuming it's not a shit engine but these days most engines are are good enough. It's the safe way of doing good graphics because no one hates realism.

i'm super excited for doom 4, even if that trailer really showed sweet fuck all. 
If this was a teaser for the new UT Willem would be all defensive.

I would love a Doom 3-like game without the cheesiness and with better weapon sounds... 
Well, nobody here seems particularly excited about Fortnite but I'm not taking it personally.

At any rate, if they pull off an awesome Doom 4 then that'll be great! I'd love to play it. But based on Doom 3 and the loss of Carmack my expectations are ... somewhat tempered.

As for the graphics, my point wasn't that realistic doesn't look good. It does. But it's more expensive than stylized. And less expensive rendering would mean more enemies on the screen and that would get us a little closer to Dooms roots. 
Someone Else Said It 
looks like a Diablo 3 or other similar type game render. 
That Would Make For A Better Diablo Than We Got From Blizzard 
havent played diablo3? that bad? 
Ahhh Damn It 
It's hard not to be excited for a new id game, but I completely agree with Willem et al's disappointment.

I'm 80% sure i had read some id employee assertion that they were getting away from the dark corridor generic realism vibe and towards something more stylised, capturing the old Doom magic.

Well, it looks like they didn't. I'm sure they're in dire straits, but I wish they could have taken a risk.

This could have been a great chance to go completely OTT, into Blood Dragon or Bulletstorm territory. Stylistically they could have taken the Doom heavy metal poster style and run with it, or it could have been cheesy and colourful and brash. I'd even love to have seen a TF2 meets Doom aesthetic, with hundreds of imps and demons to mow down.

Obviously it's just a teaser, but teasers set the mood, and in this case it's put me in a bad mood. 
For Me, Doom Is 
Slow moving projectiles and enemies
Fast Player Movement
Maze like levels with multiple keys
Demons in the future

All we saw from the last game is focus on 25% of the above.

It's fine that graphics are getting better - you need to spend that AAA budget on something to justify the price tag, but I wouldn't buy a table with only one leg.

I remember turning off the world rendering and the map options on so that I was basically playing a maze type version of asteroids. It teaches you a lot about the deeper game design.

Years later I read something similar, in the Masters of Doom book I think, that compared the game to a top down 2D shooter. 
I Think It Was Here

That article has got it down to a tee. Unfortunately, the author was not immediately scooped up by id when Irrational Games got shut down. 
@ Willem & JPL 
I agree on what a teaser SHOULD do, but how often is that really the case?

To put my statement in question into other words: Because of the deceptive nature of modern teasers, trailers and advertisement in general, using them as the basis of an expectation or opinion is imprudent.

I'd like to see some gameplay, I bought the new Wolf just for the beta... 
Bla Bla Bla 
but uber-realistic does always look good

There's also the pipeline... everyone doing realism makes for an industry-wide homogenized pipeline, which has economic benefits.
It also makes the games look very similar to each other visually I think. Esp with a lot of scifi and fantasy designs these days which all look like they could have been done by the same studio. I do agree that most NPR games end up trying to capitalize too much on their look. I also agree that photorealism usually does look good... at the time it's released. I recently played the first Crysis again and it looks pretty dated. That's the bane of realism, you never get realistic enough to be considered realistic.

I prefer the old mindset of Doom and Quake, realism wasn't an option so they didn't even try. It's long since been an option now, but does that mean it would be sacrilegious to instead just consider the tech a blank canvas on which anything goes?

Also, with regards to games looking like games, I feel that the ones mentioned, such as Sunset Overdrive just go the other way around, they try to incorporate so much clich�s that it turns on itself. It looks like a synthesis of 'oldskool' derivatives to form a superficial antithesis. It ends up falling in the same trap as the uber-realism games, which is to use it's visual style as a tool to set itself apart in the marketplace, rather than to serve the bigger design. It tries to look like a videogame for the same reasons other games are trying to not look like videogames. Granted, Sunset Overdrive is over the top and it uses it's graphics which allow it to do that, so in that sense it fits, but the design itself is more of a reaction to current trends rather than a genuine effort to do something new, condemning the game to be a child of it's time. The methodology seems to be; being like old games insofar not being like other contemporary games, equalling being 'arcady' vs 'simulationy'. But it's design seems to be more to cherry pick of arcade conventions rather than going through the thought process those arcade games went trough. (which is not to say it will be a bad game!).

That circles back to Doom... an interesting approach to it's design would be to consider the way the FPS *could* have evolved extrapolating from Doom's conventions (which is nicely described in OTP's link), rather than becoming more of a simulation. Why do we need reloading or aim down sights? Why do we need locational damage? Why not simply respawn after you've been killed in single player? Why do we need jumping and crouching? etc. I think Doom could be the perfect candidate for such an approach, the previous games differ radically from contemporary shooters and with it's name it'll sell well regardless of it's quality (D3 was a very pretty and imho very boring game, and it sold amazingly well, though the revolutionary renderer might have played a part).

(wall of text, doh!) 
My hope is that after the big shakeups at ID, the level designers from Rage got the promotion they deserve and are now leading Doom in the right direction.

If it's still set on Earth (remember, Bethesda demanded ID do a u-turn on Doom4 well after it was announced to take place on Earth) I'm hoping for a sort of Earth/hell/space-station mashup, where towers of flesh and bone have erupted from the ground under major cities and derelict space-stations have crashed to the ground, all of which creates twisted labyrinths that the hellions have overrun, building their own uniquely hellish strongholds amongst the rubble.

The good thing about hyper-realism is that it doesn't have to be "realistic" in the literal sense of the word, even if people blinded by COD/BF/etc will try telling you different.

Ask me next week and I may be less optimistic though. 
It's Rather The Time For Quake Again 
To be honest, I'd rather have liked to see a new Quake, going back to the medieval setting of the original game just like Carmack had stated one or two years ago. However, after Carmack left id, I dunno if they are still considering the idea.

About Doom 4: It can only be successful if they are departing from the settings of Doom 3 (and also Quake 4, which looked similar IMO). We've had enough horror, I believe, so it's time for brighter levels with more straight-forward action - and without monsters teleporting into your back all the time.

I am still hoping it's gonna be a remake/reimagination of Doom II with a scenario on Earth overrun by demons. If done properly, I'd gladly play it. They just shouldn't stick to id tech 5 any longer - it's just a guarantee for insanely large game installations of several dozen GBs with blurry and laggy texturing. 
Seriously I dont know why they would think another scary oohhh its dark oooooh its booooootifoullll standard piece of boring on rails crap is any lower risk than a proper over the top ultra fun and loud remake of real Doom ?

As suggested by others if following the real spirit and style of doom with some modern tech, eg some of unrealistic/"cartoony" but good looking progressive 60fps constant graphics loaded with neat particle effects and physics for more wow... Allowing hordes of beasts etc.
Going back to that thrash metal demonic would be a massive success, simply because there is NOTHINg ELSE LIKE IT !!!In over 20 years it is still loved to bits by people and there is fuckall else like it, I mean simply WTF ??
It would be fresh, it would be Doom is fucking back!!!

I mean come on what the fuck is wrong with their brains, do they want money or not?!?!
It would get so fucking hyped by the legions of people with golden memories of doom it would be silly and guaranteed financial success...

I despair.... 
Isn't made for that. It works best for the type of game they're now making. Everything they do is structured to work well for their business model, including their team sizes and skill levels. 
They should stick to new franchises ala Rage to sell their ID Tech 5 and split/recruit another studio to do Doom with their support on another engine or one of their older engines modified. Wouldnt Carmack wanna work something more experimental for a change rather than this realishtik stuff constantly ?

I get the point, the busiess model they have its fine...but it really does not change anything to the possibilities of massive success and profits with a proper Doom sequel instead of driving it into the ground to demonstrate the engine 
Does their business model work? Did Rage ever get into the black? I can't recall now ... I know it was 6+ years in development that's a LOT of cost to recoup. 
Question is not did Rage recoup the money but did the engine licenses right ? Thats what they make their money on no ? Cant be their mediocre games.... 
But id stopped licensing out their engine, right? Other than letting internal Zenimax studios use it. 
Then I really dont understand wtf they are doing.

If they would then just let Doom RIP instead of digging it out of its crypt and dollying it up as a carnival of suck tranny over and over 
Unless i missed something, all we got so far is a CG trailer. We'll see what the game is like soon enough - and if it turns out to indeed "suck" as feared, there's still plenty of time get worked up about it.

idTech5 seemed to have been designed with high FPS rates in mind, so the hope would be that they optimized it even more singe Rage ( which ran quite fast .. when the drivers weren't glitching ;) ) and can afford to throw some proper demon hordes at the player.

In the meantime, play some Pirate DOOM :E 
"To be honest, I'd rather have liked to see a new Quake, going back to the medieval setting of the original game just like Carmack had stated one or two years ago."

I agree with this 100% It would be much more interesting than another sci-fi themed game. 
Yeah fucking earth/sci-fi has been done to death. Even space and mars has been done a lot, although I'd much rather see doom4 in space than on earth. maybe they thought if it's on mars (or the moons wherever the fuck doom was based) it would end up looking a bit too much like rage?

but yeah I'd much rather see a reboot of quake. seriously, has any other game ever done a theme you could classify as "metal" since?

whatever they do though I'll enjoy. doom3 might have got a lot of hate, but it's still the one game from the early/mid 2000s that I'd go back and play again - it's aged very well I think. 
A Painkillerish Approach Might Be Advisable... 
...stripping it of the ultraboring-straight-ahead-each-room-locks-until-you-clear-it level design, of course.
And giving the monsters some kind of actual AI and animation. 
That's another spot where I'm torn ... I found the heavily animated dudes in Rage to be annoying to fight. While they're flipping and rolling and bouncing off the walls, I'm getting frustrated during shot after shot into thin air. Maybe I suck, but I didn't have that problem in other id games. :P 
Yeah... I Agree. And I Generally Hate Human Enemies. 
I feel much more at ease shooting monsters.
And that's really what I had in mind, so I did not think too much flips and rolls.
But Painkiller ones have little more than running straight at you. 
Resurrect It!!! 
Boah! why bring Painkiller into this ??
Just stick to Doom as Doom is very very very well described by the article linked above by JP Breton

Its still perfectly fun today, that type of gameplay is will never get old. Again WTF is so hard to grasp here as to the fun factor. Splash it up with fun graphics and effects all over the place adding a layer of hectic a la Brutal Doom.

No reason either not to expand or mix in a couple "meta" layers on top such as a take on Doom 1's progress through the bases overview map - maybe some dynamic / open fronted approach to beat back the demonic hordes by choosing which base/area to check out or whatever, fellow marines to rescue for added equipment/support further on...plenty of chances for creativity there as long as gameplay is left to its roots there is no problem with it. Might avoid the oh so (I dont know the fuck why but) feared comment "they just remade doom with a gfx update"

As to setting well the setting is the settings its in the franchise. Hell Tech Earth Mars Space thats what it is. As you know its more about doing it right than where it is set. 
I found the heavily animated dudes in Rage to be annoying to fight. While they're flipping and rolling and bouncing off the walls

I guess I'm the opposite... I really really like the way the mutants were animated, I wish every game had such responsive animations. It really made the game flow as opposed to pop-and-stop.
Bit like fighting a duo of fiends now I think of it. 
...stripping it of the ultraboring-straight-ahead-each-room-locks-until-you-clear-it level design, of course.

...but, that's not what doom was... 
Yeah Wtf 
Doom was made up of some very complex labyrinthine level design. Shits all over the corridor shooter blueprint that has been adopted by the low end of the console FPS brigade. 
That's what *painkiller* was. 
am i the only one who noticed killes just posted 
Who Is Killes? 
Unironic question. 
Guy On The Left

Real answer: He's just some idiot that has hung out in #terrafusion forever, but otherwise completely uninvolved with the Quake mapping community at all. 
Ha, Blast From The Past... we just need Blitz to walk through the door. 
...hang on, he has recently; my bad. 
Err... Thanks Drew... fact, that's exactly what I meant.

I just bought Painkiller Hell And Damnation on Steam, and, despite it being the nth re-hashing of the same maps I still appreciate the gameplay, which is really frenetic and fun. But that's about it for PK's qualities.

And sure, it's what the original Dooms were about, I just used "Painkillerish" because I had just been playing that. May have been "SeriousSamThreeish", or whateverish.

That's what I'd love to see in the new Doom. Gameplay wise it should bring back some superheroic features for the player: superior speed, ability to perform absurd feats like rocket jumping and the such. To that extent, Painkiller's bunnyhopping (and the ability to climb almost any surface with that) is fantastic.

What I miss the most in modern games is the "athletic" side of keyboard mashing...

Nothing new, [kona] was saying just that some posts ago. 
Killes Is 100% Legit A Great Guy And Has Very Good Opinions 
Thats right listen to CZG maggots.

Im not involved other than playing the Q1 maps and ranting about FPS's.

My points about Doom remake and its financial success remain valid.

I get the reference to painkiller - hordes and speed but still.

The silent, Painkiller bunnyhopping is fun. I would say though Doom's 2d-ness serves the simplicity of the gameplay. Is a bit weird not to have verticality though. I would say it should be in but not so much a focal point of the gameplay as in Painkiller 
we need TheGoldenAce back. 
speaking of killes masturbating over Blood, bout time we had a blood remake, right?

I just bought all the painkillers too - i see they had all of them for like $15 on steam. probably the last few I hadn't played will be shit, but ah well it's only $15.

I wouldn't be impressed if doom4 was anything like PK, though. Make it fast, but that's where the similarities should end. 
I Wouldn't Be Impressed, Either. 
Don't get me wrong guys...
I'd like it to be sticking more to the Old School vibe, that's all.

Nice, explorable maps (no invisible walls BS, thanks).
Fast gameplay.
To hell (!) with realism, make me jump and run like crazy!
No vehicle runs, no weapon reloading, no resurrection.
Put some thought into Boss battles.

New Doom 
Have the episodes a la Doom 1, add z-axis to maps a la Quake and turn the progression map into an overworld with NPC interaction. Done. 
A Mission 
Spiney summed that up nicely.
OK, now someone here use your industry contacts and find a way to blackmail someone important at ID to make this happen and save Doom's future. Kthx. 
NPC interaction? For what? 
or somehow sabotage that stupid fucking VR thing that carmack's working on and he can return to id :P

ok maybe it'll be a cool gadget one day, but carmack's the part-creator of my favourite 2 games of all time - he's being wasted on the oculus rift, something I really don't see myself using in the next 15 years. 
To be honest, I'd rather have someone like Carmack heading up the tech wave of the future than working on yet another iteration of the classic closet shooter. :)

If anyone can make VR work, and work well, it's Carmack. If he can't, then we can at least know there's no hope... 
I would say Doom needs some people who understood the magic of what made the original game great.

The id boys have been making the same game for so long that when they tried to make something different for a change of pace they got a lot of backlash. They were clearly stagnating and I hope that they get people who still have love for the original formula to get involved. 
I don't think tech is at all barrier here to a proper new iteration of Doom.
Carmack would be a total waste on the project, he is simply not needed there. He is not the embodiment of the spirit of Doom either, at all.
If Doom3 is anything to go by I think Carmack should be kept as far away as possible from the project.

As Fifth says - it needs people who understand what Doom is, how it plays, why it is what it is.
Eg JP Breton and other talented fans of the original who actually still play the game to this day for their personal enjoyment. 
NPC interaction? For what?

Well, you'd need some people to save Earth for don't you?
Might as well put them in the world for story sake. 
NPCs In Doom? 
What Doom4 ought to have is a solid, meandering story with plenty of exposition (scripted events and cut scenes), lots of exploration, a loot system, a gun crafting system and plenty of NPCs for story and to be part of your team to help you complete your objective.

Since you'd have a team, death is unnecessary and can be side stepped by having them revive you when you become too fatigued and collapse.

Clunky medpaks should be replaced with regenerating health (which you can upgrade via perks). Also, there should only be one or two ammo types that work with all guns. An emphasis on melee would be nice too.

The whole "space demons" thing is pretty cliched and silly. A few ultra-realistic, ultra-probable things should be thrown into the mix, like small, middle eastern, pseudo-military sects that utterly threaten the safety and security of the entire rest of the world.

Something like that is really what D00M4, not only needs, but deserves.

I hope they don't mess it up. 
I Hope 
Perks == Microtransactions! 
NPCs In Doom?

Heh. You mean like in Doom 3? 
KillPixel, seriously?

Very little of #469 reminds me of Doom. Team? Crafting? Regenerating health? "small, middle eastern, pseudo-military sects"?

Seems more like some weird mixture of Fallout and Call of Duty to me. Not that it would be bad maybe, just not Doom. 
#469 was obvious satire.

#471 is serious, which is even worse. 
Grim Serious 
I actually quite like regenerating health with upgrade perks :P Otherwise I tend to horde health packs far too much. I guess health that can't be carried is the answer there. 
Regenerating health is a really poor system IMO as it fosters very boring "hide and regen" gameplay seen in a lot of games that also combine with high damage hitscan enemies.

The oldschool way of doing things encourages you to actively run and gun which is far more FUN. That's the key word here. If you want to be lazy about health then a better method to regenerating health would be carryable med-packs like Duke 3D. 
Bad-mood-and-too-tired Serious Actually 
Health: I think regen and packs both suck, it's just that packs suck less...

Running low on health can give you the adrenaline rush thing of trying to stay alive while frantically searching for a healthpack. Regen just makes it a game of retreating back into a corner and twiddling your thumbs. Problem with packs is backtracking for health, wich is perhaps even more boring. 
regen is terrible, health as an inventory item can add strategy, DN3D did it well.

But yeah, health pick ups are best for arcade shooters. 
Unreal 1 
Would have been more interesting if all the medkits were Nali Seeds, I think. 
"Regenerating health is a really poor system IMO as it fosters very boring "hide and regen" gameplay seen in a lot of games that also combine with high damage hitscan enemies. The oldschool way of doing things encourages you to actively run and gun which is far more FUN."

One could argue the complete opposite here. Regen puts you often dangerously close to death and you have to frantically get out of danger to recover. The 2-3 secs of waiting is boring, but the rush is that you came so close to death. The oldschool way does the opposite. It's not run and gun because you know if you get hit and damaged, you won't be getting that health back (unless there's a health pack around), so you end up playing more carefully.

Regen health promotes more action in the gameplay than the old school methods. The problem is combat is much slower these days. 
Is that a SP mod yet? Should be. 
Also I always kind of liked Halo's hybrid system (only played the first one). But don't think that would work for every kind of fps. 
Yes Ijed... 
...I thought it was a great aspect of The Masquerade. Might be difficult to implement in a different genre though ? 
There is a lot of truth in what Kona said. For instance, in Gears I would often take chances in combat simply because I knew that if it didn't work out, I could take cover somewhere and regen a little. If I was on a finite amount of health, I'd be a lot more careful.

I don't think either system is perfect BUT I don't think regen is as flawed as people want to make it out to be. If the player can simply run away and hide and heal up then maybe the problem is in the AI and/or the level design - not the health system. 
Playerd Also Have To Take Some Responsibility For How They Play 
In both health systems being discussed, you can choose to be more of an adrenalin player or play the run and wait game. Sure different health systems may nudge different people into one of those two styles but at the end of the day its upto the player how they want to play the game and how much they want to enjoy it. 
Score Vampirism 
I implemented this in one top down shooter but in a way I hadn't seen before.

Basically, scoring recovered your health, and the scoring system awarded you more points (more health recovered) the better you did.

I was trying to solve the 'run and hide' gameplay which is a risk in the timed health regeneration system.

The idea was to encourage risky but good play.

Everything else in the game was based on making the player more aggressive as well - camera angles, damage of melee vs ranged attacks and a special leap attack to replace the standard grenade / rocket.

Unfortunately it seems a lot of the players struggled to realise the score vampirism because we had a very poor interface and I ran out of time to have a crack at improving it myself.

The 'health pack' was a group of refugees who got cheered and got beamed up when you collected them, awarding 5000 points. 
What was said before about play style being defined by player and level design and not health packs vs regen makes sense, I agree.

For me though, and I don't know if this goes for anyone else, health packs provide a more "survivalist" vibe which fits in better with the stranded marine blasting his way desperately through hell's hordes. That survivalist vibe comes from health pack collection being a better analogue to actual survival - acquiring vital resource to make it as you go.

Magical 20-200 second health bar autorefills kill the (I'm not sure how to define this) vibe/suspension of disbelief for me. Or maybe in more words kill the analogy of the game to an arcade game version of "reality" - which is a concept I believe games from Doom's era worked from as inspiration/starting point in their gameplay design not having had much to base themselves on game wise prior to their creation.

/rant/ These days I feel games base off other games in an attempt to improve on previous formula, which works great plenty of times but also slowly leads to a loss of perspective, to more and more abstract gameplay styles in the service/hope of "this game is so much better than the previous one because its improved guys, even if it did not need any improving!"

You can make better than previous with the exact same ingredients, don't need new ones automatically to achieve this. This goes de facto for a million subsets of art and entertainment, why not games more? Its a pissing contest most of the time. /rant/ 
It's a balancing act that developers constantly walk.

If you don't change anything, you get slammed for same-old, same-old.

If you change things, you get slammed for killing the franchise and forgetting what make the original so great.

There's a sweet spot but it's actually pretty hard to get right. 
Killes, there was nothing broken or improvable about healthpacks. They reinvented the wheel to make fps easier on a joypad.

I would have liked Rage a lot if it wasn't for the absolutely tension-killing fact of just having to stop a while to recover health... and the resurrection mechanics.

"Regen health promotes more action in the gameplay than the old school methods. The problem is combat is much slower these days. "

mmmh.... actually if a game had a constant onslaught of aggressive enemies coming for you (ie not enemy soldiers constantly taking cover) it would make for some very hectic gameplay, forcing you to kill enemies as soon as possible to have enough time to recover your health. But obviously health regen is part of a bigger problem, the let make fpses as easy as possible with the joypad school of design

(another variation would be to have a thrill seeking protagonist with health slowly crawling to 1 unless you keep killing, with health regen speed based on how much damage you are delivering)

but yeah the point to me is that health kit was an already perfect system 
not sure i'm too impressed by that 
D00M Preview At QuakeCon 
I reckon there will be leaks. 
Doom 3 Leaks 
Made the game look even better than it did in reality. The bad video and sound quality just made my mind fill in the blanks and get incredibly excited. The leaked code was far less exciting, but the final game was fairly fun aside from some of the problems we already beat to death in the Doom 3 thread 10 years ago.

10 years. Fucking hell, I'm getting old. 
it's probably pretty fkn sad that we all play video games still lol. it's just too addictive to give up though :P 
I don't buy that. Why isn't it sad that some people watch sports for their entire adult lives? Hobbies are hobbies, fuck what other people think. 
Games Are An Artform 
Like any other, and potentially a superset of all others. Of course, they're huge timesinks in creation and consumption. Probably very self-indulgent also... 
RPS QuakeCon Coverage (sorry, Scar3crow) 
Doom created to be fast, brutal. Not waiting around for health to recharge. Showed quick animatics of enemies getting gibbed. Looks OK.

There will be fast-paced competitive multiplayer. Will run on a new evolution of their tech, Id Tech 6.

Game will be on PC and next-gen consoles.

Demo time. Marine puts on helmet. Walks through corridors I�m big facility. Tons of lava below. Finds a trail of blood. Graphics look nice, but nothing insane. Level design seems very linear.

Demons appear. Super quick movement. Shooting followed by tearing into demons and ripping out organs, all in one quick movement. Just slide forward and finish them, sometimes with a trip that leads into a thunderous slam. Enemies break apart like moldy bread. Literally tearing them in half sometimes. Almost God of War esque in that respect. Hyper violent. Very fast.

Need a hand to use a key scanner. Go rip the arm off a corpse and push it against the scanner. This is ridiculous.

Go upstairs. Surrounded by demons. Shotgun them, stun, and move in for the finish. Crushing heads, chunks flying everywhere.

Lots of walkways and rails. Demon gets shot and falls in half. Demons are pretty basic. Humanoid. Long-range spell attacks and up close clawing.

Finds beam assault rifle. Mowing everything down with it. Lots of explosions now. Leaping on top of crates and rails and slamming down on enemies.

Encounter hologram of someone saying they�ve �lost containment.� That�s an understatement.

Update 669: First demo ends with a demon ripping the player�s arms off and beating him to death with them. Seriously.

Second demo. Walk through quiet, less lava-filled warehouse area. Then demons. Player finds the chainsaw, which peels enemies in half like rotten banana peels. They get all floppy and everything. Ewwwwww.

There�s a radial menu you can pop up to switch weapons. It briefly slows down time.

Bigger demons show up in slightly more open room full of crates. Tough, mobile. Can climb stuff. They are mean, but they explode into sinew confetti like everything else.

Then a big fat demon. Super slow, but has multiple projectile attacks. Kill it by ripping out the pustule in its stomach and shoving it down its own mouth, causing it to explode into a pile of lard and entrails. Somewhere, the concept of pacifism weeps.

Open a door. Cyberdemon towers over player, roars. Then the demo ends.

The game looks� interesting. The emphasis on melee definitely changes the flow of combat, and double-jumping mixed with light parkour antics mean there�s a little verticality to the proceedings. Also it is insanely, ludicrously violent. I liked the part where the man who was beating everyone to death with their own arms got beat to death with his own arms. That�s basically fucking poetry.
Sounds like RIP AND TEAR - The Game. Wonder how much of it was fake and scripted like that Doom3 "alpha footage" video, though. 
That game sounds neat. Did they show DOOM at all? 
I worry that they've now figured out that DOOM wasn't about the graphics, but they've now mistakenly wandered down another alley believing that what DOOM was about was the gore. 
The Fast-gameplay Comments Are Promising 
This seems to be more based on Brutal Doom than Doom. This isn't good. 
Revenants with jetpacks can be fun though. Also I don't believe for one second they'll be able to show hordes of enemies in 1080p with 60 fps, especially on consoles. 
Sure They Can, It's IdTech 666! 
The trailer with the cyberdemon gave me lots of hope but this coverage is crushing it. Willem speaks my mind. 
I Dunno. 
In 1993, Doom 1's level of gore was unprecedented. Would make sense for "id" to raise the bar again.

The bit about ripping a hand off a corpse to use it against a fingerprint scanner is straight from the Doom Bible, too.

Also, it's a nice change of pace after the TEEN rated Quake Live. 
Goddamn doomguy said it was good. I will likely listen because he knows his shit 
It Sounds Good 
The gore just grabs people's attention more than it will when actually playing.

The actual parts where gameplay is mentioned:

Doom created to be fast, brutal
Surrounded by demons
fast-paced competitive multiplayer
Super quick movement. Shooting followed by tearing into demons and ripping out organs, all in one quick movement
Tough, mobile. Can climb stuff
The emphasis on melee definitely changes the flow of combat, and double-jumping mixed with light parkour antics mean there�s a little verticality to the proceedings.

Maybe I'm just selecting the bits that I want, but that sounds like a pretty fun game. 
It's hard to script fast gameplay, which is hopeful. 
Sounds... Good? 
From reading through the pc gamer and doomguy comments it sounds like it should be pretty fast and fun so long as the radial menu weapon switching is console only and pc users can just press the number keys, and the finishing moves don't go into some kind of slow motion mode.

Really want to see how it looks. Will drop by #tf and see if anyone has found leaks :) 

Much better commentary regarding gameplay and comparisons to Doom and frequently mentioned Brutal Doom. 
Eurogamer Says.... 
"This new chapter in the series is a reboot of sorts that gets back to the classic roots of fast-paced action. "Doom is not about taking cover," Stratton said. "It's not about finding a place to hide to let your health regenerate. It's about fast, fluid combat, dodging projectiles, finding that next target and charging forward with nothing in your way of slaughtering that next demon."

"You'll see crazy demons. Unbelievable mechanical demons built through secret and corrupt UAC experiments. Demons like hell knights, the cyber demon, revenant, and many more. Whether these demons are something familiar or something totally new, each of them is designed to create a unique combat experience, regardless of whether you are fighting against it, killing it, or being killed by it."

"We're creating Doom to make you feel like a fast, improvisational, brutal killing machine." 
I'm Optimistic 
Because if I'm not, I have nothing else. The potential of this not being bad, and Killing Floor 2 is what I keep my eyes turned toward.

I don't really trust anything the press says when they can't identify a Revenant or a Mancubus, just calling them "demon" and "big demon". Jehar is there, I'll pick his brain the next time I chat with him to get an actual sense as to its qualities. 
Yeah, that irked me a little too ... if you don't even know the names of the creatures, why are you covering a new Doom game? 
I'm a little happy about some stuff here guys >;D

Though I've/gamers have been betrayed way too many times with BS demos so we will see how the real thing turns out.

It does really seem to be more based on Brtualdoom. I like Brutaldoom as its own thing, so OK, its not pure back to the roots but sounds a fuck ton more like the right kind of stuff than Doom3 was...

I hope Sergeant_Mark_IV will get some credit at least... 
<czg> doom 4 fucking owns. everyone's going to hate it though.
<czg> three words: first person platformer 
<Shambler> wait a mo how does czg know this shit?
<czg> Shambler: fabulous secret powers were revealed to me the day I held aloft my magic sword and said "BY THE POWER OF GAYSKULL" 
sounds like fun! 
First person platformer sounds much more faithful to original doom that if it was a "modern FPS". 
Quake definitely has a first person platformer feel when things get crazy, so that sort of feel ain't necessarily a bad thing. 
Romero's maps definitely did.

Also Honey! 
The platforming aspect is something I really miss in fps nowadays. Actually, it's probably one of my fav things about Quake. Just went through Metal Monstrosity, platforming joy! 
This Thread Was Started Literally Over Six Years Ago. 
This Thread Was Started Literally Over Six Years Ago. 
... and there are only 528... :P 
The First 300 Posts Were Just Arguing About Family Guy 
They Should Make Doom -1 Just To Be Different 
I don't even want Doom 4 anymore. Natural Selection 2 is the best game ever. What I wan't is Natural Selection 3. The end. 
The last thing anyone needs is for Microsoft's "numbers as marketing" shenanigans to spread to ... anything else, really. 
RIP Call of Doom, 2008-2011, missed by nobody. 
That video OTP posted was Rage reskinned to be some fucking awful version of Doom.

I'm betting that the Doom being made now will be WolfTNO reskinned. A nice looking, but utterly mediocre shooter with a bunch of plot forced down your throat. 
utterly mediocre shooter with a bunch of plot forced down your throat.

I believe lots of people will buy it even if it gets the score of 50 on metacritic. I am one of them. 
Sure, it'll do well and will get great review scores. RPS will put it in their next Top 50 FPS games at #5.

Won't mean it isn't garbage. 
Lol Scampie Slagging Rps 
Scampie Calm Down Little Child. 
Nah, RPS would only do that if it was non violent, third person. 
Maybe if the was a female lead character who could plead a girl squad to voluntarily block the hell gates with a sitting blockade and whistles?

Alternatively TW could sleep with one of the editors. 
don't be morons. 
1. Video - only watched w/out sound, looked fine to me, I thought the whole Hell On Earth idea was a good one as long as the gameplay was more visceral and hectic than Doom 3. Having a sort of apocalyptic demon invasion aspect with a bit of a human crisis side *could* have worked well.

2. Doomnstein: The New Order - I think that could be fine, at least TNO focused pretty well on action and simple game mechanics. Could do with less farting around in your rebel base and less invisible walls, but the core gameplay, if beefed up and demonised a bit, could be suitable.

I seem to be less cynical about this than other people... 
Gameplay Preview From Last Year 
People who saw the behind-closed-doors gameplay demo last year said it looked quake3-fast and very jumpy/platformy - a return to 1990s id - right? or am I imagining things? 
dnf was like a 50 on metacritic and every one still got it, and it was actually alright just a bunch of muppet haters/trolls being dicks because it wasn't 100/100. 
No It Was Dated Juvenile Shit. 
When OTP is calling something 'juvenile shit', you know it's bad 
"Pokemon Is For Kids. I'm Into Digimon Now." 
Scampie Calm Down Little Child. 
The layouts encourage jumping, with the player leaping very high and gracefully.

There was a certain strange feeling I had during the demo, like something was out of place. About halfway through, I realized what it was: I NEVER see a game with this type of visual realism where the player can move and maneuver at this speed. Make no mistake: the fast guy from the id Tech 1 games is back, except his freedom of movement is closer to Quake 3 Arena. (No, this is NOT a parkour game, and the movement is not that exaggerated or overpowered, I'm just using the comparison to give you a better idea.) The enemies are faster too, but the player is faster still. The player speed and the type of graphical realism are like two different things your brain is not used to processing together in modern games, or at least that was my thought on it.

<czg> doom 4 fucking owns. everyone's going to hate it though.
<czg> three words: first person platformer
No different to most American comedies and cartoons, South Park, for instance, which appears to be quite popular around the world.

Serious Sam 3 was just as juvenile, except not funny, far worse design and graphics and awfully repetitive gameplay. It's over 70% on Metacritic. 
DNF Was Shite 
otp - right, yeah that's the stuff. Just noticed links to those writeups can be found earlier in this thread too.

So yeah, all that stuff sounds very promising indeed. 
DNF Was A Bit Tacky 
but I paid for it, played it once, and enjoyed it. So what does that make me?

A consumer? 
I'll Never Forgive Gearbox For Colonial Marines Though. 
What a pile of shite. 
Played DNF a couple times, I wouldn't say it's terrible... I'd probably give it 2.5 out of 5. I preordered both RAGE and W:TNO, I'd give them 3 and 3.5, respectively.

I'm gonna preorder DOOM just the same, hopefully I can get some beta action.

I've read as many testimonies as I could find from people that saw the quakecon footage. I'm cautiously optimistic... emphasis on the optimism.

Also, I agree with the moster design we've seen so far. A departure from D3's clean, almost alien look to the more macabre, hellish fleshy-metal look of the original. 
Going Back To TNOTOB 
I think they demonstrate, as otp says about the D4 demo report, the feasibility of combining graphical fidelity with action-orientated gameplay and decent player speed (not so much enemy speed but that could be done), and in a game that is reasonably successful and well-acclaimed.

File me under "CO" too. 
This video came out around the same time a to when RAGE was getting its own share of media backlash. Perhaps those two combined were what made id reconsider the direction behind Doom 4?

(If so, that's even more kudos for the "If Quake was made today" video...) 
Seems fast, looks nice, Snapmap looks like an easy to use tool for prefabbing maps together. Speed seems reasonable. Very bloody.

Cons: Linear shooter with basically no projectiles, few enemies at a time, no vertical elements, and Snapmap seems to just make 2d layouts? Not sold on that. Lots of animations and such, will likely get annoying after awhile and seem to just be there to cover up the gameplay's weakpoints.

It's better than Doom3 by a mile, and likely better than most FPS games these days... but still lacking quite a bit. 
Doom E3 Gameplay Trailer

not what i expected, seems pretty cool. some monster design seemed very quake4-like. makes me wonder if they're planning on consolidating that colorful scifi style with doom and going back to the lovcraftian/horror route with quake 5. 
At the end of the trailer there's a monster that bends forward and roars at the camera... ok. 
I dunno bout everyone else but I'm piss bored of the "eyeless zombie with a bell-end on its head" monster design. 
But Yeah Overall Looked Dull 
Paint-by-numbers console shooter with gore gimmick. Exciting stuff. 
yeah looks pretty cool. I was watching gamespots thoughts on it and they just dumped on it, saying it's not fast enough (seemed pretty quick to me, I don't want no serious sam, the last one was garbage), it's more like q2 (which is kind of true) but one complete moron saying he might as well just play painkiller. yes if you want to play a childish gimmicky game that's over 10 years old and looks shit compared to todays games, then piss off and play it.

I do hope this doesn't end up like most other id games and it become the popular thing to hate on it. I can't wait though.

Oh, I don't know if it was just the video but there seemed to be some framerate issues in the demo, especially during combat. Looks like my current computer won't handle it :( 
That Does Not Look Good As A Game 
Might be fine as a one time playthrough experience which is what most FPS are nowadays. 
Well great, most of the actual gameplay scenes in that are using your hands to climb onto a crate or take things and using your foot to stomp on enemies. Just like what Doom was all about. Environments look like bad Quake maps were you have flat open rooms next to each other. 
Kinn Nailed It. 
Nothing more to add. 
Yes. One Thing. 
Monster design of D3 was light years ahead. 
Some Really Mind Boggling Complaints Here And There. 
Having seen both demos this seems just fine.

Not 3D enough - sure, but neither were Doom 1 and 2. I'm pretty sure they will let people to use custom prefabs in Slapmap, so not being able to build in 3D may or may not be eventually circumvented by some modding genius. But even if not, it seems like a fair compromise to keep the user made maps flowing.

Speed - watch the Snapmap video and notice how fast paced the deathmatch segment is.

Hitscan only - what? Mancubi and agitating skellingtons are shooting projectiles in demo 2.

Hell - hope to see more green marble, but other than that it was fine. The map showcased reminded me of Valiant E4, somehow. 
Most of the D3 mistaked listen within the first 50 posts of this thread have not been repeated this time around. 
I'm pleasantly surprised because I expected total shit. Sure, I can see enough things to point out. Things like the death animations becoming repetitive already, primarily still claustrophobic environments, loot drops and so on. But on the other hand I see a ton of things they are doing right. Will it be a great game? I don't know. But for the first time in over a decade it feels like Id listened to the fans and are really trying to give them what they want. You say an editor and MP is expected but they failed to really deliver on those since 1999. So to me it feels like the game has a lot of heart and that is something I will always applaud, flawed or not. 
Doom E3 Shot Porn 
I'll concede that the Cyberdemon is awful. 
Looks like potential for fun stuff. Only thing in the trailer that really gave me a frowny face is the color scheme; it's still very Doom 3 and this would have been a cool chance to do something more "out there" visually (and maybe call back to Doom 1/2 color-wise). Otherwise, it's hard to tell much so far, but it at least looks like maybe they've taken the good bits of Rage and gone in a better direction. 

Ok, I like what they've done with the mancubus, where the cyber bits actually look organic and sort of like hard boney growths. That looks cool.

But then, they don't seem to have applied that across the rest of the monsters, who all seem to have that clean Doom 3 UAC look to their cyber bits... 
Mancubus Was Way More Terrifying In D3... 
...with the meaty tusks, no mouth, man boobs (aren't them the scariest thing?).

This latest steamed lobster with leds does nothing for me.

And, oh, it seems the art director on this is really big on seafood, look at them Cacos. 
Looks like potential for fun stuff. Only thing in the trailer that really gave me a frowny face is the color scheme; it's still very Doom 3 and this would have been a cool chance to do something more "out there" visually (and maybe call back to Doom 1/2 color-wise). Otherwise, it's hard to tell much so far, but it at least looks like maybe they've taken the good bits of Rage and gone in a better direction.

Trailer was annoying because 90% of it was just gibs or weapons loading, well hey at least we know that gibs that you'll never see in slo-mo and weapon loading you'll never see at all both work well, woot woot. BUT from the tiny bits that were comprehensible, it looked pretty cool to me, as do the screenshots. 
btw they showed about 8 minutes of actual gameplay footage (well, scripted in-game fov30 train riding rather), I am not sure what to link because I don't want to provide some re-hosting prick with views.

Sound design seems as bad as Doom 3 and Rage, at least I was reminded of all the bad sound bits from those games again. Gameplay seems just like any other recent FPS? 
Oh, there is another 5 minutes of footage. Why the fuck are those not at Bethesda's account? 
Okay Much More Usefully, How About Someone Actually Links It...

<Shambler> HAHAH
<Shambler> i love the bit with the hand scanner
<Shambler> tbh it looks a lot like Doom3 but MOAR BETTERER which i'm happy with
<Shambler> although the door prising open and the kill anims are too modern fps for meh 
Oh, there is another 5 minutes of footage

You mean the hell level? Yeah I only found that after I posted my "meh" impressions above.

So...yeah these 5 minutes of gameplay look marginally more promising. At least the environment looks a bit more 3d. 
I don't think the speed is a problem. It seemed fast enough... speed has to be balanced with environment scale and so many other factors, and it seemed fine here. If you speed things up a ton in 3D environments that aren't scaled well for it, it turns into the ROTT reboot which had way too fast of movement and felt fucking awful to move around in. It's faster than most games today, without being excessive, that's all that could be asked for. 
The 3D of the levels and gameplay are a problem though.... even the hell level which had some vertical elements, was still 95% horizontal gameplay. Might as well be a topdown shooter at that point. 
How did you guys feel about the health management in the gameplay footage? It felt very diablo 3 to me. Let's kill a mob and pick up a bunch of health from it...

I actually liked doom 3, the story elements I thought actually added to the game experience. Here we just have a gore-fest though. I kind of feel like those execution moves will take away from the experience in a fast paced game, what's that imp doing over there while you're snapping his friend's neck.

Of course it's only E3 footage, so it's been designed to show that off. Dunno, I'm sure it'll be fun. 
assuming that all those kill cams are just for the video, it looks cool.

those monsters are wild! 
How did you guys feel about the health management in the gameplay footage?

All depends on how generous they are with the drops. I also see traditional pick-ups in the levels, can't recall if they were health pickups though.

If you can just pretty much recover your health after each enemy kill through these "loot drops" though, then I'd say that seems a bit crap and dumbed down. 
Doomitty Doom Oom 
Well, after watching the two gameplay showcases a few times, I have pretty mixed feelings. The choreographed demonstration played with a controller gives little insight on what actual gameplay, especially with mouse and keyboard, will be like.

All aspects of the game have some obvious rough edges, but the game isn't coming out for at LEAST another year. E3 and alpha footage of Doom3 was far inferior to the final product, could be the same case with this.


-Gore looks cool

-Seem to have good intentions

CONS (Visuals)

-Art direction in general feels generic, flat or lacking any real flavor.

-Enemies aren't very distinguishable from one another. The game as a whole seems to be using fairly muted base colors (though lots of them) with bright, more saturated accents on key things (enemies, doors). If they're gonna go this route they should make the most of it. For example, the cacodemon could benefit from a glowing eye and mouth (like in the original doom), this would help it stand out against the world.

-Continuing that train of thought, monster sounds seem both artistically uninspired and mechanically useless as they lack definition from each other.

-The music is cool, but inappropriate for this game. I was hoping this was "dev music", stand-in tunes for E3. Toward the end of the Hell gameplay the music was obviously of the same batch that was used in the teaser trailer that came out last year. This makes me feel like they've already chosen to go with this composer and musical direction :/

-The quasi-diegetic ui is pretty meh. Id rather have unique, distinguishable items rather than a generic blue holographic tag on them that was pulled right out of dead space (worked well in that game, not so much here).

-Happy to see the SS, but again, weapon design feels uninspired and unnecessarily constrained to realism. "realism" is already out the window, you have a lot of creative room before things start to become painfully improbable. But even then, it's doom. I'd like see more exploration and play within the doom universe to come up with more unique and interesting art.

-On that note, Hell was pitifully bland and generic.

-Cyberdemon design in particular was not appealing.

-The visual fidelity in general looks almost last-gen. This is surprising. I feel like this is what it would look like on all low settings.

CONS (Gameplay)

-Doom made you feel strong and in control by way of powerful weapons and enhanced mobility (speed, in this case). Doom4 is attempting that same sensation of control via mobility but the "realistic" aesthetics requires reduced movement speed so they have doublejump and grappling/mantling to make up for it. IMO, this could work, but grappling/mantling would almost always have to be an integral part of gamepley with levels being built to maximize use of that mechanic. Otherwise, if it's not constantly in use you simply have slow movement speed with occasional, clumsy and ultimately irrelevant bursts of mobility.

-too slow of a tempo, not enough enemy numbers and variation per encounter.

-Enemies seem pretty static and stupid. I would like to see more movement and interactivity.

-I feel like finishing moves break the flow of play and would quickly grow tiresome.

-Health drops from enemies. They'll go all out arcady in this area but wont speed the player up or give us more interesting/whimsical visuals? ok.

-Levels feel very flat and lacking interesting enemy positioning. Looked very linear with occasional scripted arenas *cough*HL2*cough*. I think a more open and interconnected floor plan similar to that of older fps games would a) be more fun to navigate, b) would utilize grappling/mantling and double jump, and c) be more visually compelling.

-Fuck that weapon wheel.

-Nearly pausing time when selecting weapons is unnecessary hand-holding and takes away from the challenge of playing the game.

Meh, there were a couple other things that struck me as odd, but I'm reminding myself they still have a year of dev ahead of them. It feels like they're trying to make a game that gives the impression of fast paced, challenging combat while still remaining accessible to the consumer base, particularly the console market. I don't think that can be pulled off. I hope it congeals into something fun. I'm still cautiously optimistic, though now more emephasis on the caution. 
You Know What 
To me it looks like it might be fun. That's all. 
Mixed Feelings. 
Yeah Killpixel, your pros and cons list shows mixed feelings for sure. 
Let's Face It... 
Based on all we've seen so far, none of us have any idea whether it's going to be any good or not. There's nothing in those videos that's so heinous that it can't be forgiven if the game has good, interesting level design. I'm talking about level design that balances combat with rewarding, non-linear exploration with great replay value and satisfying, non-trivial environmental interac- sorry I've got to stop myself right there, it's hard to type when I'm laughing this much... 
level design that balances combat with rewarding, non-linear exploration with great replay value and satisfying, non-trivial environmental interac-

Not even I am expecting that from 2010's id. 
the original doom fanbase are all in the 30s and 40s now, aw hell some could be into their 50s if they were playing doom2 at 30yo.

many don't play games like they're 15 anymore, pumped up on energy drink sinking hours and hours into a lightning fast game that would make a normal person dizzy in a few minutes. they just don't want to realise it.

maybe, secretly, id know that, so they'll never return to the extreme fast pace of doom. the old skool can't handle it. the new skool of console gamers can't either because they don't have the mouse/kb. 
The Doom community regularly sees new faces, and they're not in their 30s. They're teenagers, looking for a fun game, and sometimes one of them hears about Doom and really gives it a go. And they love it. I feel old in half the Doom discussions I stumble across, so, it isn't just an old man's game. 
It's A Fair Point Kona. 
This looked reasonably brutal and visceral, but not that hectic. It looks like they are balancing out modern styles with action-orientated gameplay a bit better than Doom3, but it's still not the old skool pace.

The question is, will that happen again?? Painkiller - okay, but meh. Serious Sam - seriously toss. WOFLTNO - too hitscanny. Devs seem to either struggle getting the horde/pace balanced right with actually being an appealing game, or don't have the inclination to try (sorry, may not make sense, not fully caffeinated yet). 
The thing is, it doesn't SEEM like it should be hard to arrive at a good base for a working formula fairly quickly. Seriously, start with this list of traits for your enemies:

- fast/slow
- hit scan/projectile (also fast/slow)
- large/small
- land based/flying

Mix and match, generate about 8 combos of those things and you should have a recipe for a Doom-like tactical experience.

But everyone defaults to "slow, hit scan, small, land based". Humans in other words. 
And their idea of enemy variety is pistol vs rifle, or "Oh, hey, this one has a rocket launcher!" 
Are Fps Games Even Made For Replayability Anymore 
at least for sp?

I think there is a good argument that most are designed for a one off 'experience' only. Hence all the overscripted stuff, animations or otherwise.

Most people I know these days only playtrhough the sp part of a modern fps once. Then move on to another game or only play mp. 
Not in my experience. It takes so much effort to create the worlds that adding side paths or optional objectives for future discovery isn't realistic.

They try to add replayability through scoring systems or other things that players don't really care about.

I've replayed Fallout 3 and New Vegas several times because every single time, I found something totally new I never saw before... 
Thats What I Thought 
so then really are game mechanics at the forefront or again things that go to the one off experience? I would say the latter.

Fallout etc I guess they are more RPS/FPS like Deus Ex no? 
Maybe they are counting on mapping for Doom4 SP replayability ?
Hoping they offer more mapping possibilities than Snapmap or that it allows more than prefab usage... 
I Reckon 
This feels like very mass market easily accessible stuff. Designed to sell in droves. I suspect that the SP campaign won't have much replayability at all. The community and map making tool will be the focus of its replayability.

I will be interested in seeing how in depth they make the scripting tools though. That is what will make or break this I think. If some interesting or novel mechanics can be implemented into the game by the community then we might see it take off. 
because people are able to look past graphical or environmental "limitations" for novelty. (see minecraft) 
It's a bit of a vicious cycle. There's nothing to gain from a replay, so they don't, so levels with replay value get lower priority, so players don't bother replaying...

I get that games have become Hit It and Quit It. But that sucks. Unfortunately the answer always seems to be leaderboards or grinding. Which still suck. 
And on the other side you have games like Hotline: Miami where replaying is everything.

I wonder if DOOOOM will even have end level statistics and secrets. 
Caoutious Optimism 
Although I don't like that melee takes longer than shooting - from a mechanics standpoint that makes no sense.

And yeah... where are the projectiles... 
Don't the imps shoot fireballs, the revs ants rockets and the mancubi plasma? Not to overly defend it, but to me it didn't look as bad as it's made out to be by some. What annoyed me most was the boring environments. Those looked pretty generic, but with a level editor like snapmap, the components have to be generic to fit together. I guess what they're trying to do is accommodate casual misdeed and mappers who can't spend a year on each map? 
Fucking autocorrect. 
Also Modders 
Not misdeeds. 
Quadruple Slightly Drunk Post 
I doubt the levels in the single player campaign were slammed together with slapmap.

I think slapmap's just a cool toy for whipping something up quick and sharing it online for likes and upvotes. 
I like "casual misdeeds", I think we should accommodate as many of those as possible. 
depends how strict the thing is... if it is freeform with option gridlock like elder scrolls game editors, then it can still allow a lot of cool stuff even with stock assets. 
Those Damn Misdeeds. 
Gonna be the death of Doom4.

I think the Revenant looks really good, proper menacing. It somewhat overshadows the other monsters IMO, Hellknights or whatever they are look cool but kinda generic, Mancubi look cool but kinda comical. 
I love that Cacodemon. 
Have They Showed The Barons Yet? 
Hellknight = Baron? 
or am i teh dumb 
Barons are twice as tough. 
Oh Yeah. 
I like the Cacos, they look kinda warped. 
Funny how the most interesting looking monsters (Cacos, Revenants) are the ones closest to the Classic Doom look.

The boring generic ones (Imps, Hellknights) with their Alien-inspired Doom3 Hellknight bellend-heads just look...ehhh.

Classic Imps and Hellknights would have looked killer in those grafficks.

If you pause at just the right moment in the Hell video, you can see a pinky - it looks pretty close to the Classic pinky, and looks good.

Cyberdemon looks about as threatening as a WoW character. Odd, cartoony proportions.

Anyway I sure am typing an awful lot about a game that I'm supposed to be all cynical and jaded about. 
Those Monsters Are Awesomely Bland... 
...for a Doom sequel coming out in 2016 I mean.
And yes, the scenery is exceptionally generic.

Where did all the development time go? 
Ok I Just Looked Again And There Are No Barons 
barely any pinkies either 
Doom SnapMap Level Editor

Looks interesting and really easy... o_O 
Yeah, not sure how that's going to work out on PC ... PC level makers don't want to snap lego together. They want to build everything from the ground up. 
Looks cool, more flexible than the Portal2 editor. 
Look at the Hell video - tons of the buggers. They look just like the Doom 3 Barons/HKnights, but their heads are paler than their bodies. 
Yeah, not sure how that's going to work out on PC ... PC level makers don't want to snap lego together. They want to build everything from the ground up.

I'm pretty sure they'll release some actual dev tools for the serious mappers/modders too. 
That will just end up being as productive as the Rage mod community. 
What Czg Said 
To be fair, the Rage community had to wait a full year after the game came out to get the tools ... which pretty much killed any chance of people giving a shit dead. 
That And The Download Didn't Include A Render Farm 
PC level makers don't want to snap lego together.

Have you heard of this little known indie game called Minecraft? 
I know you're just being a smart ass, but that's basically what Trenchbroom and other quake editors are. Minecraft. The pixols in Minecraft are brushes. 
would be interesting if you could lego something together real quick and then detail it later on with a more advanced editor.
I'm fairly certain this feature exists for Portal 2's editor. 
Exactly. If it lets you prototype a flow, and then touch it up in an editor? Cool. Though it still needs room over room support. 
I Refer You To Post #573 
Another Hope... 
... I have is the music can be turned off: it is half ruining the tense moment when a monster is killed...

Anyway, to come back to the level editor, so far they said there will be this "lego builder" mode (interesting really, as for beginners it gives an easy and fast hands-on), but also some advanced features as any decent level editor should have to let real mapper express their talent and imagination :)
At least I am highly expecting that :) 
I Think The Music Is Going To Be Good 
There is a remix of one of the classic doom songs at the beginning of the conference 
Yeah, I heard it too... this was pretty cool, but I was rather referring to the in-game demo footage: music is really a shame there. :/ 
Just Like In Rage 
should be able to turn it off 
The mancubus is somewhat disappointing. Looks a bit comical to me, not to say the original is not comical but meh to this one.
Cyberdemon a joke.
Revenant awesome.
Not sure aynthing can top the original Mancubus though anyways. Hope they bring back the death animation, weight of the fatty skin ripping open over the ribcage...delightful :)

I see the chaingun has spinup time...ugh. 
lol at "mein leben!" 
Simply Awesome 
this is the way ti should be :) yezzzz 
speed that shit up!
Yup thats it, speedup does it nicely :)

And this - remove the shiteass Instagram sepia/brown-out/golden whatever layer: 
Wow Nice !!! 
That would make a nice mod !! 
i would play that. 
How Is That Not Obviously Better? 
you know, i wasn't as weirded out by the unnaturally fast movement as i'd have thought. 
I bet this is the target release date. 
I Guess That Still Counts As "Spring 2016" 
Quite a while back someone discovered 666 is a mistranslation and the real number of the beast is 616.
So release date is ..uh, uuhm, spring nxet year or sumething 
Or Maybe 
its just the coming of the antichrist 
Doom 3 Mission Pack 2: Return To Mars And Hell 
I think the trailer and the gameplay videos suck!!!

I like modern variants of true fps like painkiller and serious sam 3 but this doom 4:

-looks boring
-ugly enemy design, lol wtf is that mancubus lol
-shitty violence effects
-nearly not enough enemies, wow how exciting fighting literal UNITS of enemies at a time!
-shitty sounds
-shitty rocket launcher sounds
-ugly, doom 3 inspired visuals
-even more unsensical crate placement than the average in fpses

minor flaws\things that probably bother only me:
-why the fuck is the marine using an exosuit to do badass stuff instead of you know his muscles? jesus christ.

good things:

I like the remix of the original song and sounds.

As a doom 3: dlc number 2 it might work but goddamn what a disappointment! I want my money back! I would just preorder for the principle of seeing a reimbursment for how disappointing and shitty this overly late expansion pack will be! 
Nice Meme! 
I Want To See The Footage 
this article is referring to.

"It's incredibly fast"

"It's all about smooth, flowing freedom"

"There are huge, wide environments" 
The Quakecon footage was different from the E3 footage. 
I realised today why Doom was so damn scary.
I mean it was ace of course, but it was so damn new, and easy to get emersed in. You weren't thinking. Hmm - Blood did that better, or damn, Half-life weapons were better. 
I'll Most Likely Still Buy It... 
It looks pretty enough for me to enjoy. Sure the Cyber Demon looks like he walked out of Darksiders, and most of the demons lack eyeballs for some reason... but I like the meaty sound scape, environments look pretty sweet too.

Whatever game they come up with will never hold up to the original doom. But then again neither does the Original game have the same sensations that we had when it was first released. Time to move on and enjoy new things.

I do hope the mod tools are better this time round... and don't get released super late like they did for Rage. 
Appropriate Post Number 
MP Footage 
This Video Is No Longer Available Due To A Copyright Claim By ZeniMax 
No news about modding? 
would anyone actually do it? look at how few mods (are there even any?) there are for rage. I think that's why they've gone and made prefab mapping. It looks extremely similar to what you see in elder scrolls games and look at how many new dungeon mods there are.

modding for a modern AAA game is just too time intensive for the average modder. 
I think people would have done more with RAGE had the tools not come out a YEAR after the game shipped. 
I think the work required to make a game on the graphical level of RAGE is a big turnoff, as well as the massive size of the SDK.

Because why would you use the engine to make mods and maps when they don't really fit in? If you are making something completely out of place, e.g. a TC then you'd want to use a different engine anyway 
That's why I think their builtin "map-editor" will succeed for DOOM 4, because it's simply more convenient and you mainly work with prefabs.

Though I do have my concerns on the game-play side of things, from what I have seen so far it reminds me a lot of Duke Nukem Forever - because enemies seem to jump out of random locations at times in linear form + DNF styled kill-moves (which can get old really, really quick).

Plus the game wasn't as fast as I had hoped, felt like Doom 3 running level at best, especially the HL styled scripted sequences slow the action down. Also everything but hell looks like a boiler-room to me?! 
Well yeah, the pool of people who want to spend their spare time trying to make content that can compete with the graphics of Rage, Doom4 or whatever, is pretty small now.

IMO, it's way more rewarding to go retro and thus hopefully be able to bang out some playable content before the heat death of the universe. 
Not sure the map editor/prefabs thing is going to fly. I mean ... I dunno, maybe. It will get SOME use sure, but I think from a different crowd of people rather than traditional modders and level designers. People who like to get their hands dirty with detail are going to be left out. 
It all depends how good the actual game is. If it hits enough of a critical mass, I'm sure Snapmap will take off. No it won't have everything exposed for us nerds to tinker with, but might cater to a wider audience who will be happy to able to put together levels with minimal learning curve. I mean, why should level design be gated by tons and tons of obscure and odd knowledge?

I doubt it will hit that critical mass, and it's sad the tools aren't going to be that powerful/extensible for us, but I think Snapmap is a good step toward the sort of thing that makes Minecraft so great: any player can easily get in and build. If nothing else, I'm excited to see how it pans out. 
Sure, but Minecraft gives you pixels. This looks to give you entire wall pieces. Have to see it in action I guess. 
It's A Tool To Make Doom4 Levels With 
Not necessarily a dev tool, and a whole world (and 20 years) away from a BSP1 brush pushing editor.

If you compare it to modern editor suites that are published to the general public, it looks pretty much the same.

Who knows, maybe it will even be open ended enough for genuine dev - maybe the team are even using it for the game itself.

I haven't been following the news much to know. 
Goodness Me 
All SnapMap needs is an "import custom mesh" option, and you can make what you want in it, surely. 
i bet a beer it won't have a "import custom textures" option 
i bet a beer it won't have a "import custom textures" option

The custom textures will be part of the custom mesh I imagine. 
But The Critical Question Is 
Can we use the Doom2 Palette!? 
Snapmap modules aren't just static meshes though, they're small prefab level pieces that are compiled into some format I haven't investigated. They come ready scripted, lit and with effects and various layers of gameplay that can be toggled on and off by the snapmap designer.
The best you can hope for is that they manage to output some new modules now and then, I'm fairly sure you won't be able to make new ones yourself. 
Doom 4 Snapmap 
does look restrictive, but I think that's kind of the point since it's very difficult to make content for the latest idtech. Maybe they will update somewhat frequently with prefabs?

I think what they're doing is good, I think people would be a little happier if it had something in it that was a bit more like the Portal Puzzle creator? I think that would be a nice trade-off. 
The tool will be useless if you can't make your own prefabs.

Is that functionality stated officially somewhere? 
portal puzzle creator only works because of the extreme simplicity of the levels. if someone made something like that in quake, we'd call it a box map.

doom4 is going to have an expected level of complexity to its geometry so box rooms are not an option. 
Assumptions Assumptions 
I'm not saying that it would be easy to develop for a modern engine and achieve the same kind of graphic fidelity. Especially not for a single person. However, the above is all based on Rage. This is Id-Tech 6. There are loads of things that have changed and perhaps making it more modable is one of them. Who knows really? 
Hmm No. 
More likely it's id Tech 5.1 with marketing on top. 
Yeah, remember that Carmack left after Rage. I'm not saying the coding team is not great, but ... you know, no more Carmack. 
It's At Least A New Renderer 
Hmm No... 
You have no idea what's been done engine wise in the last 4 years. Nor do I for that matter. Plus, they brought in Tiago Sousa from Crytek (Lead Graphic Engineer for the CryEngine). Also, MachineGames and Tango both worked with the Rage engine and made modifications. I honestly don't believe we'll be getting a simple 5.1. Not in that much time. If I remember correctly, Carmack stated that he wrote the engine in such a way that it would be easier to replace certain components (such as the new renderer that Tiago was talking about). 
Well Forget About It Guys. 
Right ... NEXT! 
"Could you make Doom 4 through snapmap?"


well, that's a shame.

Granted, a very small percentage of people would ever make use of true dev tools. Still, why not make them available for those who would use them?

I think doing that could benefit the snap-map community as people could use the dev tools to make prefab sets for the snap-map crowd.

So far, this doom reboot is pretty 'meh' all around. 
It's because, as I keep harping on, I don't think they understand what made Doom work. They see the demons and the gore and the graphics ... they don't realize that was just the window dressing. 
I'd have to agree. Though, I feel they (or many people on the team) do know what makes doom work. However, I think they have set their focus on what will make doom sell, ultimately.

ZeniMax is a business, it's sole purpose for existing is to generate income. So, from a business perspective, I think they're doing doom the best way. However, as a gamer and a long time lusty lover of doom, this is painful to see happen.

I'm going to go play DoomII now... 
Also notice how no id Software dev is in that panel. 
That whole segment felt so forced and artificial. I liked the parts where they say it isn't like CoD but don't bring up the loadouts, talk about how it isn't a QuickDraw like in CoD, that it takes time, but then calls it a duel, which actually involved drawing fast, and concludes with how fast the fights are. Also it's totally different because there are a lot of people fighting in one general area.

Also, the original Doom being brought up as an example of a difficult tool kit.

Ugh. Next time could they get someone who likes games on? 
Marty Stratton 
He comes off as disingenuous to me, his talks at the E3 reveal were pretty cringy. We're gamers, not business men looking to invest in their project or children that need to be spoon fed; spare us the buzzwords and bullshit.

I'm wondering where Tim Willits is in all this. Even getting Kevin Cloud to give us the lowdown on Doom would be nice.

I think id is feeling quite I bit of pressure due to RAGE and the recent exodus of John and Todd. 
I'm wondering where Tim Willits is in all this.

Hopefully very far away. 
Willits gave the world an id Software without Romero and McGee, and eventually Doom 3 and Rage. Stratton gave the world Quake Live. He speaks a ton of PR bullshit but I know whom I'd put my money on. 
Bottom Line 
Talented level designers do not talented lead developers make. 
Fill Me In 
My logic says Romero and McGee gave the world an id without Romero and McGee by leaving. How is Tim to blame? I'm genuinely curious, maybe there is some id drama that directly revolves around Tim that I don't know about? 
Let's Be Honest Though 
Willits has, for a long time now, come across as your typical middle-aged game dev veteran who lost interest in gaming over ten years ago, and is just now sitting in a management position by default churning out unimaginative passionless work whilst daydreaming about that garden shed project he's been looking forward too for a while now and oh just to let you know I'm gonna be knocking off an hour early because the kids need picking up or something "Tim when are we going over this setpiece that you need me to design next week?" Ah yeah sorry can we go over that on Monday instead? Meanwhile, just make something cool I guess I'm sure it will be great ANYWAY GOTTA GO BYE SEE YA NEXT WEEK. 
*dusts off pitchfork* 
he was visiting Raven for a couple weeks helping out on Quake4 during crunch... one night at like 1AM, I said hi to him in the breakroom in passing... HE DIDN'T SAY HI BACK 
To be fair, 1am in the breakroom, seems like you'd reply to a "hi".

Lots of people left id. Hall and Petersen did as well, but with less drama around it. 
I Had No Idea Tim Was Such A Monster 
on a serious note, I enjoyed his talk during Warren Spector's game dev course. 
CRAPMAP more like.

Still psyched for the game itself. 
I Like Tim 
He made some good maps back in the day. It's good to have at least some of the old guard still at id.
I hope he is taking a bit of a back-seat, thats generally how management works anyway. All he needs to be doing is ensuring the team are focused on their goal and not letting them stray too far from their paths.
Doom 4 is never going to be the game that fans want, ever. Doom is a legendary franchise, it's not hard to fuck it up. Plus there are an incredible wealth of mods these days, not everyone is experiencing even the classic game the same.

People are shitting all over Snapmap but in all honesty it's a damn sight better than what we got with Rage, that SDK is unusable without an actual team of people working. And who wants to work on id's worst game? 
Dunno, I Thought There Were A Lot Of Q2 Maps 
Tim Willits reminds me of Lars Ulrich. But I think he gets a lot of negativity for things he is not responsible for, just talking about them? 
He seems very, very corporate in my opinion and has always been the one at QuakeCon who appeared in a suit.

There was this one interview conducted with TW and Romero at the same time, showing how different both of them thought about games. TW insisted that using DOOM weapons and having more realistic environments was the way to go while Romero totally loved crazy, abstract stuff. 
All he needs to be doing is ensuring the team are focused on their goal and not letting them stray too far from their paths.

He was so successful with this for Doom 4, right. 
I watched a lot of that Tim Willits/Warren Spector vid last night. It was interesting.

I found it odd that he never could simply explain the difference between 2D, 2.5D, and 3D.

I had to agree completely every time he said Quake 2 should not have been named Quake 2. Even though we eventually got Quake 3 and Quake 4, there has never really been an actual Quake sequel. Which is a shame. 
Quake 2, as much as I liked it, always sat weird with me. "OK, so ... we're flying to an alien planet now? Uhh. .. sure."

I'd love to see the Lovecraft themes explored a little more and keep the abstraction. 
They'll Get Round To It 

And they'll fix the too overly simple gameplay, lack of reloading, basic multiplayer and eclectic enemy design.

And add the features we've been waiting on for so long but can only now be added thanks to modern technology - chat, video recording and screenshots direct from the console while you play.

Some things of course won't fit the demands of a modern consumer market so will have to be marginalized - secret areas, satanic references, twitch gameplay and ammunition pickups.

Of course, what Quake is really about is being able to break a guy's foot off in his face, so all those awesome features will be ported from Doom4, along with unique keys (LOL only silver and gold keys am I right guys!?), introduction cinematics for each weapon pickup and enemy attack telegraphing that lasts the length of the average bowel movement.

Finally, the new and improved Snapmap V2.0 will also be included, with support for vertical gameplay and enemies that can teleport behind the player (sorry, our bad that was left out).

I'm excited. 
And they'll fix the too overly simple gameplay

OTP Is Right 
Tim made some great maps, particularly in the Q1/Q2 eras (although Jacquays was their best mapper in the latter), but he's also the guy who said "the kids want CoD gameplay so that's what we're gonna do" a few years back. A huge part of responsibility for the rot at id can probly be fairly laid at his door. 
I blame whoever thought adding car racing to RAGE was a good idea. That person. Directly. 
I actually blame the one who added guns to a perfectly good racing game. 
Mapping Shed? 
whilst daydreaming about that garden shed project he's been looking forward too 
highlights and enemy pickups from enemies are distracting. Some of the weapons sound weak as shit. The mancubus sucks. The cyberdemon sucks 
by the way the mancubus remake was a million times better in ss3 also he was way bigger. Doom 4 feels really scaled down 
Cool Opinions You've Got There 
"Willits has, for a long time now, come across as your typical middle-aged game dev veteran who lost interest in gaming over ten years ago, ..."
Yep. He's a typical corporate type as some have mentioned.

Romero got American in, who was from the modding community if I recall. He also loved his abstract design - as can be seen in his Alice games. His levels are my favourite levels in Quake. He's the sort you want to take in. But id software is, pardon the pun, doomed. They will never innovate ever again under Bethesda. Everyone who knows business, knows that innovation comes from small business, such as when id software started. It was just a few blokes who loved D&D, Evil Dead, Aliens, Gaming and rock music. My sort of fellows.

I remember in the "Masters of Doom" book, that id recruited two corporate types to keep the business end whilst they developed. They were always pushing to prosecute people who reverse-engineered their games or released mods/maps for them. It started with Wolfenstein 3D. Wasn't Willits one of those?

"I'd love to see the Lovecraft themes explored a little more and keep the abstraction."
This. I want to see non-euclidean geometry and dirty, gritty, stinky, rusty places. Multiple headed monsters seen in no other place. Trees made out of bodies. Yummy. 
Everyone who knows business, knows that innovation comes from small business

If you're implying that innovation comes only from small businesses, then this statement is false in many cases. It's also true in many cases, but that doesn't matter. 
Well you've emphasised the word "only" in your own text, a word which I didn't use at all. Pedantic? Or just one of Willits' best buddies? xD 
What The Fuck Dude 
Arguing On The Internet... 
Innovation in gaming is so hard to achieve now, that the big AAA+ developers can't take the risk of doing something innovative in case it flops, only the indie's can do more innovative stuff but of course they don't have the budget to do it properly and we just get some pixel art crud that has some unique idea behind it. I would hope it's the mid level player that could have a decent budget, but be small enough to want to make a big impact, and they won't do that with another sandbox clone, or realistic shooter clone, or whatever it current in gaming. So they push the envelop for something a bit different, like GSC with Stalker.

I don't want id to be innovative, I want them to be the opposite, to be old skool. Or does that actually count as innovation now? That's what everyone probably wants from them. To make old skool Doom but with current technology.

Despite that, Rage had some innovation in, more than most games in 2011. In fact, can anyone name a more innovative AAA+ title released that year? Namely the innovation being the combination of driving/shooting and the painted texture thing, whatever that was officially called. Sure they weren't major things, but they were more than most games could claim. Were they successful? No, most players disliked the driving, probably the same players that never play racing games anyway so no matter how good id did the driving, it was going to fail. It could have been better though, only 2 races in the whole game were actually necessary. The texture thing also failed because they fucked up the drivers and had the major texture popping issues, that 4 years later is still not fixed. Plus I suspect it took them so fucking long to paint everything by hand that it wasn't worth it.

Anyway Rage was a great game. You can say all these things about Willits, but he can't be that bad if he was part of Rage. Doom4 was a great game also. Not without problems, but I'm yet to play a perfect game. Quake4 and Wolfenstein 2009 were both good as well, old skool style games, sure Raven made them but id had plenty of input I'm sure.

They just have to learn from their mistakes from Rage. Don't go and market it as a game with story and rpg. If id want to make a game as an rpg, it has to be as big and expansive as Bethesda's other games Fallout and Elder Scrolls, which Doom is never going to be. So they better avoid that completely. But if they can do all the weapon upgrading stuff, maybe the crafting (building) like Rage had, player upgrades as well which Rage lacked. Then just don't make it quite so linear, and don't clip everything.

But Rage was one of the best looking games of all time at it's time of release, I'd probably say top 5 easily, the art was fantastic. The combat was all fun. If they do those things so well again and just don't screw up the rpg elements, I'm thinking Doom 4 will be fantastic. If it'll be financially successful is another thing entirely, since the media and general gamers are morons - they have to be when you rank a game like Rage under 8/10 on metacritic. 
Cool Opinions You've Got There 
pixel art crud

How dare you.

Btw Rage's "painted texture thing" wasn't innovative in a gamey way, it was just some graphics tech thing that meant nothing to 99% of players who just looked at the graphics and went "cool" in the same way they went "cool" to every other really good looking FPS they played that year. 
Oh And 
Megatexture killed modding on idtech5. 
And It Looked Like This Anyway

One of the best looking games of all time at it's time of release, I'd probably say top 5 easily, the art was fantastic. 
Kona's post is a whole other thing to address, so I might do so after work tonight if I remember to.

I just wanted to note that Willits was a mapper from the Doom community who's work was picked up for the Master Levels, and sat with Romero during Quake from December 95 till June 96. He was assisted by his sister Theresa Chasar (her initials can be found in e2m7).

McGee knew Carmack from his mechanic work, and expressed interest in game development, joining in time to do about a third of the levels in Doom 2.

Neither has a "corporate" background. They're both mappers who became general directors. 
Willits... the guy who said this, don't forget:

I think that... we live in, it may be good or it may be bad, but we live in a Call of Duty era. That�s just the way it is. And that franchise has more impact on the industry than I think people realise. You just have to kind of go with the flow.

Yep I agree with your first 3 paragraphs. Megatexture was innovative, but as you say, they took a risk and it didn't work out. I'm not fond of story in action fps games, unless of course it's action/puzzle like HL2.

"Doom4 was a great game also."
I think you mean DOOM 3? I have to disagree, I think it was a very dark affair that used jump-scare excessively. It pushed its crap story in your face, and used limited monsters because it couldn't handle too many on screen at once. You originally had to keep swapping torch/gun. Its only real tech innovation was realtime lighting, which looks absolutely ugly. Talk about dark edged shadows. Even a blur applied to the edges as they did in F.E.A.R. would've been good enough. Not only that, but they totally removed lightmaps from the engine so that you couldn't even make a custom map with baked and realtime lighting (as in HL2). They realised their mistake and brought them back in Rage, which by that time we had soft shadowing and other lighting methods. Still, Rage does look good, but the gameplay is mostly boring.

Anyway, I'm actually looking forward to DOOM 4. I've not been this excited for a triple-a game since..., actually I think its been too long. I was looking forward to Bioshock: Infinite, but was very disappointed that it was a PC-infused, CoD inspired sack of shite. For people who liked Infinite, ask them what they liked about it, and all they can say is it looked amazing. That shows you how shallow people are.

Do you know what? I might've confused Willits with Jay Wilbur. 
You originally had to keep swapping torch/gun

This was actually a good design decision and I will fight anyone who says otherwise. 
OTP: yeah that's one famous screenshot and texture that was plastered everywhere during Rage discussion. Not exactly in indication of what the game really looked like though.

The game was more like this:

The low res textures were common, but when you're actually playing the game you never get close enough to really notice them. Only in the first 30mins when you're still judging the environment, do you get up close in that shit and think "this texture's a bit shit up close". After that you just play the game and forget about it, just like the texture issues. In fact I played the game for about an hour before I finally quit and looked up how to get rid of the texture popping. I was that immersed and didn't want to quit.

BTW I said "cool" a lot more times than any other game in 2011. Not that I've played them all yet; still have Crysis 2, Deus ex, Skyrim to play. 
Yeah I meant Doom3. Everyone has their own tastes on whether they liked it or not. But the game itself was only part of the experience for me, once you play all the mods, which there are heaps and the mission pack, I ended up liking the game even more. The cheap monster closets, fake scares and other things people complained about weren't used so much. And a faster movement tweak improved it a lot.

Same happened with Crysis, good game at the time. Once I played the all the many mods, it became a great game. 
I think megatexturing is great. I recently played the new Wolfenstein and there was nothing wrong with how it looked. More games should use it. Tiling = bad

I finally bought Rage when I could get it for cheap and it was way, way better than I expected due to all the negative reviews and comments I seen. 
I Enjoyed RAGE 
it was fun while it lasted, sadly it didn't last long enough and the last couple of levels were really abrupt. The last level was a massive disappointment, it felt unfinished.

Wolf TNO is an excellent game. I have enjoyed it quite a lot, there were a few moments when I felt the game was being unfair, you're pretty squishy. The moon levels were the best in the game but didn't last long enough, I was hoping to do a lot more moonwalking. I felt like I was in a James Bond game, it was incredible. 
Congrats OTP you've out-moroned yourself. Spotting some blurry textures very close up always was, and still is, the most obvious and pointless straw-clutching of any anti-Rage argument. Every game has it's graphical flaws and the minor ones in Rage were completely nullified by it's general graphical quality.

TBH the screenshot that Kona posted isn't in the top 100 scenes found in Rage, and it still makes his point. 

Fifth is completely right about the ending tho.

P.S. by "screenshot Kona posted", I meant his 2nd screenshot with the long list of games. The 1st one is completely on point. 
Rage was an incredibly beautiful game when it was released, I was pretty surprised because I had the 360 version it looked fantastic still. There were some issues I still had such as the skybox being static and some of the environments could have used a little more "life" or motion (windy effects, tumbleweed, moving scenery etc).
Overall though I was impressed. I had expected that id would have added something to the end of the game so that it felt finished but I don't even think the DLC tied the game up properly (I never played it so correct me if I am wrong) 
Nah. The DLC was nice -- both the added stuff as well as "ultra nightmare" difficulty -- but didn't fix the ending. 
How should have Rage ended? (In the Rage thread, perhaps?) 
the dlc was great, well worth $5. but it had nothing to do with the main plot. it did have a slightly more appropriate spike in difficulty at the end with the ship battle, although by that point you know you're nearing the end so wasting every bit of awesome ammo you had left. those shotgun rockets were my choice. 
Man this thread is getting off topic, but it is still orbiting around the recent works of id, so...

I don't think Rage is a bad game, but I do think it is a lower point for id. As for innovation, I didn't see any with Rage. The technology was neat, but the driving/shooting combo had been seen, recently, with Borderlands, and previously with Halo. On top of that, the driving wasn't rewarding (the sounds alone made it difficult to enjoy) and the vehicle combat was awkward. I appreciate that id was trying to broaden their horizons, but you could cut vehicles in all forms from Rage and its quality wouldn't decrease, at least as far as my experiences went. It was ultimately filler, and a chore at times.

Rage looked great, and it felt good too. The shooting was responsive, the AI and animations blended together well... I loved the pirouette the Authority guys did if you decapitated them with a pulse round. But onetruepurple's image isn't as deceptive as has been suggested. Yes, it is blurry. That isn't the issue. It's a decal of a system of pipes with junctions, flow controls, and a switch of some sort. Just pasted onto the world. It doesn't matter how blurry or crisp that is, that looks bad, and is inconsistent with the overall aesthetic. Have an example of a similar issue, from Battlefield 3: Note the red... Cinderblock? Lego piece? It clearly has geometry, but it is a very 2d image. It doesn't belong and once you notice it, you can't stop noticing it. I had a similar problem with the 3d assets being reduced to borderline spray paint decals in Rage (and the cardboard shrubbery which didn't seem to match the world at all).

Rage is beautiful. But not all of it is, and because it is beautiful, those hiccups, bad calls, and other issues are far more stark. Rage is _amazing_ at vistas. I think it would've been well suited for an RTS or Diablo clone, something where you look at a bigger picture at all times.

As for its ending, well, I don't think it had one. It smells strongly of id being told to wrap it up. You get a bit of a ramp up in theme as you are directly confronting the Authority, but it never amounts to more than some fights in hallways, and a brief tiny arena fight, that I thought was just another encounter. Then I hit a switch and got a Steam achievement. I hadn't even used a BFG round. No, the game plainly wasn't done. They didn't build all of the Subway city with its new NPCs just to hit you with a few more missions and send you to the final wave. The whole thing screams for larger ideas, and practically demands it.

As for other games that year, well we had Dark Souls, Brink (yeah the execution sucked, but I'm talking about ideas), and Modern Warfare 3 (the Strike Package system greatly expanded the player roles in MP and opened the game up without infringing on the core style).

Honestly, I'd buy another Rage, if they cut the minigames, the driving (unless they made it compelling), and focused on giving us detailed large spaces with more of Nelno's AI and Carmack's 60hz shooting. Give me 10 hours of the Dead City and the various clan hangouts.

Oh and here is something I never hear people bring up regarding Rage, good or bad. The stealth. Crouch walk, use a crossbow, headshot the last guy in a group when he is out of sight. You can go a long way, unnoticed, if you do that. That is very rewarding.

Almost as rewarding as two turrets in that creepy brewery.

As for Doom 4 - it doesn't need to be like the originals, I just don't want it to suck. I want more good games to play, and this flat combat where you regain health and ammo by watching animations with monsters doesn't do anything for me. I'm also tired of hearing id talk about how fast it is, when it plays slower than the average Advanced Warfare match. Frankly I think they should try again at Rage, or do a new IP. Stop using the reputation of old games they don't seem to understand, and try something of their own. 
Good Post That. 
"I think that... we live in, it may be good or it may be bad, but we live in a Call of Duty era. That�s just the way it is. And that franchise has more impact on the industry than I think people realise. You just have to kind of go with the flow. "

that's a fucking weird thing to see considering your company invented fps and probably perfected them. 
Blame Carmack. 
Game dev should be "ok let's design some awesome gameplay ideas on paper then figure out the tech we need to develop to realise this".

Instead id would go "Ok, Carmack is working on some cool stuff that tickles his fancy or whatever, so let's see how that pans out and then figure out what sort of game we can bang out that uses all that".

Carmack is therefore both the hero, and the villain, in the grand saga that is the rise and fall of id. 
I don't think we're in a COD era, and the franchise has far less impact on the industry than what people think. Realistic shooters were around long before COD and would still be around regardless. You take COD out of the picture, and maybe you might also lose the most obvious imitators Battlefield, er.... er.... that's about it. Some of the Tom Clancy games have slowly moved more towards COD style gameplay, as they chase better sales.

MOH, Operation Flashpoint/Arma, CS/TF and the HL mods all came before COD. The games industry is full of games that clearly aren't that similar to COD. I actually would like more, I quite enjoy a simple 5-10 hour stroll through great looking locations shooting with my standard weapons.

If he's talking about not imitators but just borrowing certain elements, I suppose it's hard more impact there, I bet there's not one thing that the COD franchise actually invented.

I think GTA probably is the most influential game in terms of imitators. There are probably about 5 games a year that you know are designed to target the GTA fan. The type of people that get a big chubby because in GTA you can drive around and change the radio station in the car, like it's some amazing feature. 
He's Talking About $$$ Ingress 
So the COD series is one of most important FPS games. Not only because it makes a lot of money, but because its a safe bet for investment. 
I don't think we're in a COD era, and the franchise has far less impact on the industry than what people think.

Oh, I agree with that. We actually seem to be at the start of a backlash against CoD clones; or at least a willingness among the AAA studios to try something different.

The problem however was not that; the problem was that was what Willits thought and that thinking was what informed some of his design decisions. 
You're gorgeous you, mh. It's just the way you type. Are you me, but somehow I've become schizophrenic and split myself between two accounts?

Either that or I'm just saying I concur in some bizarre and abstract manner. Do you know what you're saying?

The problem with CoD is it's such a shit game. Do you think that the CoD generation will look back with pride at all those hours they wasted in such a retrograde game? Or do you think they'll be embarassed?

I recall in 1997 telling my friends about Quake and this thing called the internet which lets you play this other thing called deathmatch and how amazing it was. Then years later, they all finally discovered what I was talking about, but in a grotesque form. My friends didn't understand why I wasn't into it (They'd previously called me the "gamesmaster"). I tried to explain how it wasn't skill based and that it was rigged so that low level players were close to slightly higher level players. They thought I was just making excuses. I tried to explain about mouse+keyboard. They still don't believe me. Now they wonder why I don't answer their text messages. Bastards.

Anyway, I'm glad the WoW and CoD era is sliding away. Could DOOM 4 be a stepping stone back to skill based games? Hopefully. Personally though, I don't think arena deathmatch will ever come back like how it was. It's just a bit boring tbh. I want something new. I like the direction valve have gone with action+puzzle stuff. 
off topic but not really, did anyone here try Wolfenstein the new order? How is it? Is it fun? Is it challenging? Does it have regen health?

I forgot about that game but got interested after playing tormentor667's wolfendoom blade of agony 
"I'm not fond of story in action fps games, unless of course it's action/puzzle like HL2. "

If I recall correctly there was no story, action or puzzles in hl2- unless you mean the extremely watered down versions of each 
I Liked New Order 
I didn't think I would, but it turned out to be pretty fun. Some parts were better than others of course. Graphics were great. Story wasn't terrible.

I got it on sale for $15 and didn't feel ripped off at all. I played on middle difficulty and it wasn't too hard, don't remember if health regenerated. It probably did. 
I Preordered Both Rage And Wolf Tno 
I felt like less of a fool with the wolf purchase. The gfx are nice, but the gameplay felt clunky to me. I found having to press use to pick up items, inlcuding health, annoying and a strange choice for "retro" shooter. Story made the gameplay stop n go, which really never allowed me to set into a groove. Ok game overall but i probably wont play it again. 
Open Invites For Doom 4 
By popular demand, we�re opening DOOM alpha access beyond our DOOM Beta group. First come, first serve.

Aaaand closed. 
Thanks For The Heads Up 
Got in! So now I can experience disappointment before other people! 
make sure you whine about how it sucks here! :D 
Sucks Here? 
I suspect the word order is wrong (at least, I hope it is wrong). 
It's Slow 
It's not exactly the same as Doom 1 and 2 in every way, therefore it sucks and it raped my childhood etc. etc.

Jar Jar. 
I believe you mean Darth Jar Jar 
Also This 
So I haven't been ashamed to say that I've been super looking forward to Doom 4, I'm a fan of the series even after the disappointing Doom 3.

I'm really not convinced of Doom 4, it's just not Doom. Even less so than Doom 3 to be honest. Double jumps, insta-kill melee attacks, item load outs instead of proper item placement and balancing, playing as a revenant is awesome if you're a revenant but sucks if you're anyone else (and you'll mostly be in the everyone else camp), weapons simply don't feel that fun or have too much personality (they all look and feel generic)...

I'll play it a little more but only to see if it can win me over but I'm not convinced that it will. 
Theres No Driving 
I'll be satisfied. 
I would call it hot garbage but it's more like stone-cold garbage. I'm shocked how much it plays like like Halo, it's trash. After googling "doom 4 developer" I found this beautiful nugget -

"Certain Affinity is an American video game development studio based in Austin, Texas. It was founded in 2006 by Max Hoberman and a small number of other ex-Bungie employees and other industry veterans."

These are the guys doing the multiplayer, it really REALLY shows that these guys are ex bungie. Now, I don't mind Halo, infact I adore most of them especially Halo Reach. However, I do not want Doom to play like Halo, I want it to play like Doom.

This game is not Doom. 
Oh Right. Multiplayer 
Do people here still care about that? 
Just Wait... 
you'll all get to be disappointed. You'll see.

(btw, I actually wanted to love the game, I enjoyed the trailers shown at E3) 
the multi-player movement feels very sluggish to me and I don't think its an FPS issue. Everything feels a bit weak too -- I'm pretty damn nifty with a rocket launcher if I do say so myself, but it feels like I can hit somebody dead on target 3-4 times and they're not dead. The supershotgun has too great a spread and any short-range accuracy is fucked by the overall poor visual fidelity of the game. I get that there's only one level and others may be different, but everything is bathed in the same orange glow so none of the graphics pop out at all and it just looks like a big expensive smear. If you stand still and just look at the visuals there is some great artwork in there, but it just doesn't work in motion when you need to be able to differentiate items, players and environmental details really quickly.

The one thing I really enjoyed was being able to climb stuff, but that will get old fast.

Really hoping this isn't a sign of things to come in the singleplayer. 
id doesn't have it anymore. I'm honestly expecting nothing from Doom 4 ... 
Some people care some. :-) Probably not many care a lot.

Doom 4 MP is pretty fun. I don't really want MP that is like Doom 1/2 MP anyway. Also not to be a wet blanket but we did sign NDAs to get into the alpha soooo I guess I won't say more. 
("care" thing is answer to #779) 
Considering we'll still get double jumps, insta-melee-kills, generic-looking weapons with almost to no punch, I don't have any hopes left. Biggest offender is that it's more "Halo in Hell" than "Doom", damnit.

Looking forward to UT4 even more now. 
it's kind of Ironic but Unreal Tournament is already shaping up to be truly excellent. Ironic I suppose because Doom has aped so many things and yet does them all terribly (actually the ledge mantelling works really well but I honestly don't care about it in my Doom) 
Well, all of this makes me look more forward to the next Shadow Warrior now. 
The original Shadow Warrior was some sweet magical experience. Weapons have to make noise and shake the screen like that, dammit! 
So, Hypothetically, If One Gave The Slightest Fuck About MP... it better or worse than Doom3 MP? 
I Liked D3 MP. 
I don't intend to spend much more time playing the D4 alpha. 
Doom 3 MP 
Was actually a lot better imo 
I Didn't Play Doom 3 MP 
But it's definitely better or worse or even. 
Doom3 Had MP?? 
Wait, Doom4 has MP? 
no and no 
Still hyped for pure SP experience then. 
Why Is D4 What It Is? 
There are very talented people making this game whom I imagine have an affinity for Doom. It's bizzare that it's shaping up the way it is and I'm not sure what to attribute it to.

Regardless, I think it will be interesting to play, even if it's just to satisfy morbid curiosity. 
People are surprised in 2015 that a FPS designed primarily for consoles plays more like the Halo and CoD series than a PC game from 1993?

Come on, you should have learned by now. 
I Get That 
And I have my own assumptions as well, but I've never worked in games industry.

It's just odd. I feel ZeniMax can afford to make the game that should</> be made and give the PC crowd a gift via the Doom IP. It won't really hurt their bottom line and that good PR will be seen and appreciated by console and PC gamers alike. 
Why Is D4 What It Is? 
D4 is what it is because big games are designed by committee. This isn't so bad for a brand new IP because whatever comes out will seem more like a coherent vision, but as soon as you try to do it with a decades old IP you get a whole bunch of designers with alternative "interpretations" and memories attached to the IP, all throwing their two pence in. On top of that, Bethesda have been very vocal about what they think it should be, so there are money men to appease as well as die hard original fans and the potential new fans that they will be hoping to attract. 
Games are best designed when a few, ideally one, people have the vision in their heads and everyone else implements that vision. Otherwise what you get is design by committee and watered down games with glowing trails so players don't get lost or waste time exploring.

A team full of Doom enthusiasts actually has less chance of producing a good Doom game as everyone has their own opinion of what makes Doom what it is.

Mix all those together and it's a bland dish. 
A team full of Doom enthusiasts actually has less chance of producing a good Doom game as everyone has their own opinion of what makes Doom what it is.

Well put. I hope there will be little gold nuggets in D4 that I can at least appreciate.

Also, doing simple text markup from my phone isn't workin out so well. 
It's Funny 
That people are saying 'what do you expect'. I expect it to be good. Wolf TNO was excellent! So why not Doom? 
because wolf TNO was made by a talented studio at the top of their game 
I suspect we've stumbled upon two very slightly different meanings of the word "expect". On a simple level, as a consumer you're entitled to expect (or demand, require, desire etc.) a quality product in return for your money. As a critic, you expect with somewhat more nuance, so expecting becomes predicting, or foreseeing in a way.

The long and short of it is, there's no excuse for a company like ID to create a bad product, but there are many reasons that they might. 
"because wolf TNO was made by a talented studio at the top of their game "

^^ Exactly this. Whatever make id work, is gone. 
"When and where did it go?" is, of course, the perennial question. 
It's obviously not anyone currently there so we can start narrowing it down. ;) 
Willits And Stratton Fucking Suck 
End topic. 
I Also Played The Doom 4 MP Alpha 
Anyone who hasn't, probably best to lower expectations for this game if this is still possible for you.

It's just SO bland. Holy fucking balls. It's every generic sci-fi online shooter you've ever had nightmares about. Those shiny panels and orange neon light strips will haunt my dreams.

Weapons are particularly shit. The plasma gun half-heartedly farts out little globules of WKD Blue, with the stopping power of your morning piss stream.

Gameplay is just your standard bouncy, flimsy, kinda quake 3, kinda halo bollocks.

Visibility is so bad. Can't stress enough how orange everything is, and how difficult it is to identify teammates.

I know this is "just the multiplayer" but it's not a good sign. 
Hope You Guys Are Providing All These Feedback To Id.... 
Cos if it's released and it is shit, we'll know who failed with the alpha testing >:( 
its a stress test 
They might be saying otherwise but the truth is, they're not looking for feedback on the content. This is a global hardware test and nothing else. 
Pretty Much True. 
It's a network stress test... let me say I tested this on the net' and I got stressed. So I guess it was successful? 
That Orange Post-effect Is Awful 
I really don't understand what artists wanted to provide to players with it. 
How Does It Perform? 
I know you're under NDA. Just curious about the performance? I imagine it will be around W:TNO, maybe even less. I seriously doubt this game will be pushing current hardware anywhere near the degree Doom3 did back in the day...

Also, was there an FOV slider tucked away in the MP launcher somewhere? 
It wasn't super stable for me, I had to hard reset my computer a couple of times and I had the occasional problem with the startup videos... but it performed pretty well in game. Steady frame-rate, graphically it didn't look bad either.

I'd say performance was similar to Wolf, but if I'm being honest I haven't played anything on my PC that makes it drop frames yet.

PC Specs -

intel i7 4790k
nvidia gtx 970
16gb ram
500gb samsung SSDs

This is pretty much on par with the recommended specs so I guess if you're running the same as me then you'll be golden. 
I guess the instability with the hard crashes etc will be ironed out, it IS alpha. 
Also I didn't fuck around with any sliders, I dont intend on re-installing to find out either. 
intel i7 4790k
nvidia gtx 970
16gb ram
500gb samsung SSDs

Those are exactly my specs, couldn't have asked for a better reference.

I do hope the lighting gets a little improvement, though. The shadow banding on the viewmodel from the E3 footage was pretty distracting... 
Certain Affinity? 
I'm trying not to laugh... They were a big chunk of the Halo Master Chief Collection. With its stellar multiplayer experience.

Just, of all the companies to do your mp, CA? Oy. Why not Nerve? They're local, good blend of old school and contemporary FPS work in their background. Oh well. So far this is all matching up with my fears that spawned with the initial 18 minute reveal. 
Willem gets it right - the bigger the design committee, the worse the game is. 
Well, at least the game got out of development hell.

Maybe if I keep my expectations at the same level of Duke Nukem Forever, the game will be fine. 
Doom Close Alpha Test 
I didn't get the same feedback as provided in previous posts of this thread... Anyway, a colleague in my company has been "luckily selected" for the Doom Close Alpha testing last week (he got email through steam... and tested the game), and he told me he has been somewhat impressed by the overall quality of the game. Obviously not everything is perfect, he was not as deceived as some of you are.

I guess you'll have as many testers as opinion on the game, and hence quite different opinions...

Anyway, I have been a fan of ID FPS (Wolfenstein/Doom/Quake/etc..) since 90's, so I guess I'll buy the game... and I'll love it as usual :) 
This Colleague Of Yours 
is he a fan of old id games too?
For example, he can be a fan of Duke Nukem Forever, Thief 4 or some other nostalgia-raping title. In this case, him liking D4 alpha would be rather bad sign. 
Doom 4 MP... 
...isn't the worst game ever. In fact it's very far from the worst game ever. The problem with multiplayer games is that unless they're close to the best thing ever the servers will be empty within a couple of months, and then it may as well be the worst thing ever.

It's just mediocre. 
Doom 4 MP isn't bad because it's bad... it's bad because it's not Doom! It's being developed by ex bungie staff and feels very much like a weird cross between Halo and Unreal Tournament, but it still isn't as good as either of those two franchises either.
It seems the game is having an identity crisis. 
The problem, IMO, is the game is 22 years old as of today! How can you replicate the magic from something 2 decades ago? I think it's something of a fools errand.

Make something new. 
Make something old!!

Seems to working well for a lot of indie devs :) 
You can't just say something is too old and restart it with new ideas, that's how most reboots happen, and most of them feel like rehashes of modern games with the skin of the originals instead of classic ones with a few twists on them to keep them fresh.

We had good remakes, like Resident Evil Remake and Metroid Zero Mission. Those understood the originals and expanded upon them while keeping them intact and fresh. 
...fools errand, Now there was a game. 
If I were making a new Doom (or Quake, for that matter) I'd take the universe (monsters, weapons, thematics etc.) and mash them together with a Left4Dead style of gameplay. I'd also basically throw any sort of storyline in the bin and just allow each level (or maybe set of 2-3 levels) be a sort of mini-narrative that fleshes out the universe a little more but doesn't slow things down with npc's and shit.

And then everyone would internet-hate me, because you just can't please all of the people all of the time. 
I Internet-Hate You 
is he a fan of old id games too?

Yes, and he is an FPS fan in general: I guess he tried all FPS since 90's.. a fucking gamer so far :P

and again, regarding the controversial feedback, the game will be really worth buying..

MP is not my (and my colleague) cup of tea either, as we both really prefer SP campain.. but at least it gives a good indication of what will be the final game...

anyway, it is just a matter of personal feelings. 
How Can You Replicate The Magic From Something 2 Decades Ago? 
By making a good game in it's own right I guess?? And trying to capture SOME aspects of old skool gaming.

WTNOWOTOTN gave it a damn good go, by blending modern gfx and design coherence with a bit of story telling and some reasonably old skool gameplay with OTT weapon loads and constant shooting. 
I assume that jumble of letters refers to the latest Wolf games ... I thought those games were great fun and I enjoyed them a lot. But I think you'd be hard pressed to find parallels between them and the originals beyond "Nazis" and "guns".

It could just as well have been a new franchise ... 
It Was Good 
Because it was unique.

The most successful modern franchises (at least in the first iteration of the title) struck out on their own and did their own thing, making cool gameplay mechanics.

Doom was especially successful because it was completely new. Granted there were similar games before it like Wolf, but it hit the nail on the head and invented a completely new genre of games -the FPS.

Clones fucking suck. Clone mashups fucking suck.

However, the real decision makers behind making a product like this are completely averse to innovation.

They either don't have a talented enough team to innovate, or the vision, or the drive to do so.

Doom4 will be mildly successful no matter what a minority of aficionados think - completely validating the business approach.

Doom4 isn't for us. It's for the other 99.9% of the FPS market. 
But I think you'd be hard pressed to find parallels between them and the originals beyond "Nazis" and "guns".

It could just as well have been a new franchise ...

There's a real element of "they changed it, now it sucks" in this, isn't there? This must be a horrible position for the developers to be in; change too much and they get comments like this, not change enough and they get accused of stagnating or recycling the same game over and over (like what happened to id in the late 90s). 

And that's why it's almost always better to launch a new IP. Whenever you try to work within something as long living and well loved as Doom, you're pretty much assured of failure. 
"Doom4 isn't for us. It's for the other 99.9% of the FPS market."

Is it tho? The mass FPS market seems most interested in terrorists and military stuff. Not demons. 
And that's why it's almost always better to launch a new IP

From our purely artistic viewpoint yes, but try telling that to a businessman. 
It SHOULD be clear to a smart businessman as well but ... well, there's that word "smart" mucking up the works. 
So, they're going to try and sell it as an ID game, "the studio that pioneered the first-person shooter genre. Sorry, I'm not buying. ID has left the building, a long time ago. 
As long as the game's not moddable there's no chance I'm gonna buy it 
Re: Moddability 
eh... the amount of work required to make anything good in d4........... only the truly dedicated would have a chance. 
It has Doom Snapmap, that's about as much as the layman is going to get anyway. If they released the proper tools I highly doubt people would mod the game.

depending on how good that ends up being, that really seems like the solution to getting user content for longevity vs technical skill and time sink of making said content. 
$60 for Doom 4? No. 
As for SnapMap, I'm hugely skeptical that snapping together prefabbed chunks is going to result in anything worthwhile but I guess we'll see. 
seems like something to allow console gamers to feel like they can be modders too, but anybody who's ever done any proper modding or developing will find it ridiculously limited. 
Necros Is Right 
Games are long past the point where one person could create a worthwhile mod. If a SDK was released there still wouldn't be a Plutonia for Doom 4.

SnapMap is like Super Doom Maker, and assuming there will be enough variety in the prefabs and the environments available, that's fine.

Only idiots preorder games though. 
Pre-ordering on Steam allows me to preload the game so ... why am I an idiot? If it's something I KNOW I want, like Fallout 4, I don't see the problem. 
Pre-orders have been given a bad name by things like DeusEx-Gate and other instances of publishers deliberately holding content back to incentivize early/extra spend, but the basic concept of ordering something before it's released is fine if it would have been a day-one purchase anyway.

Bloody politics. 
Open world games get tons of incredibly complex mods. I'd say the problem is more with zero incentive to replay many games which is different for fucking around in an open world setting. 
I Preordered Binding of Isaac because it was reduced in price - that's a good incentive.

Preordering to get more content is retarded, even if you really want the product, because even if for you everything goes well and you eventually get the product you want, other publishers are going to think that that particular format for pre ordering is valid.

Voting with your wallet.

Moving on..

Snap map is not a new idea. Timesplitters did it back in 2002 with their map builder -

It's the exact same concept as far as I can tell, although SnapMap allow you to place your greebles just how you want them rather than on hotspots.

I made a couple of levels in it and got bored. Maybe social gaming will solve that - which is what Bethesda is pinning their hopes on most likely.

I suspect the outcome will be pretty much what you get in Mario Maker though - the most popular levels will be 50% gimmick and 50% hardest level everz. 
I Wonder... 
...if Snapmap is Zenidthesda trying to avoid criticisms from the hardcore Doom crowd. "Oh you guysh don't like our slow-paced fancy gfx ledge-mantling takedown-move-sim?? Well just stick a bunch of corridors and arenas together and put 18,000 monsters in and hey presto Doom4 slaughtermap" 
Yes Of Course 
They want to get back to the ideals of what Doom originally stood for - massive player community who continues making content to empower their IP and.

But, actions speak louder than words. And the reactions here at least (from people who should be interested in such a long term goal for a beloved franchise) have been lukewarm at best.

Because Doom had other things going for it that made players want to mod it - shareware sales format and an open code base that was built to be picked apart and re imagined by players. 
and throws a stupid amount of money at them. 
To Clarify 
They want the fan devotion, but don't want to risk paying the price for it.

So they make something which looks similar - Snapmap. 
Dooms code base wasn't open at all. The file formats were designed to be easy to relatively create and edit, but Carmack didn't release the code until just a few years back. 
And I know you know that, but the way you worded it sounded like the code was open from launch. 
i haven't tried snap map so this is just conjecture... but i am picturing something like level editing in morrowind (and all those games that came after). you've got your prefab corridor bits and atrium wall bits. your floor and ceiling bits. you paste them together on a grid and bam, a dungeon.

but you can also place your bits off-grid and rotate them and whatnot. basically build completely custom stuff out of the stock assets. this is what i meant by 'depends on how good snap map is'.

you could make some really cool custom dungeons in morrowind and oblivion and such (oblivion had some truly epic dungeons with all stock assets).

but if it's kind of node based or something and you can't have any freedom at all in how you place it... then it's going to be limited and it's going to die out fast. 
I Wondered Once 
Initially i assumed snapmap would have the ability to import custom assets, but someone shot that down (can't remember who).

Shame because if you could make your own meshes and import them then suddenly it's a proper mapping tool again. 
There was once a race game called Stunts, designed for you to build your own tracks. You played a campaign, but the biggest fun was the track editor and the races you come up with:

If Doom4 was designed around a snapmap of sorts, it could be a breakthrough. It could be done. 
So is Trackmania. In games like Stunts and Trackmania, it matters what track pieces you place in what order. It matters rather a lot. You also spend about a third of a second with your wheels touching any one module.

In an FPS, the granularity of editing that allows the same degree of expression of new and interesting gameplay isn't in the arrangement of what rooms or atria come in what order, it's in the arrangement of pillars and ledges and lines of sight and elevations and dozens of other things. The design is the room. Just as how in a game like Trackmania it's all about combining ramps and curves and jumps and straightaways and accelerators and so forth.

Mapping at that level of granularity is the kind of thing for which you really need to be doing your own architecture. The granularity of Doom sectors and linedefs and of Quake brushwork dovetails with that requirement perfectly, which is one very underappreciated reason why there was such a robust and enduring community around level design for those games.

The Trackmania community has created entire genres of racetrack (like 'Push Forward') from modular pieces. This is not because modular pieces are inherently wonderful and amazing, but because modularity works very very well for assembling racetracks with depth from a lot of tiny pieces. Does placing entire prefabricated rooms and hallways in any order you want really offer anywhere near that level of opportunity?

I think we all know the real reason why: if you're doing your own architecture, you're doing your own art. Can't let users build ugly rooms! We can't make an amazing enough tool that lets them customize a space down to the granularity that's necessary for real level design to be taking place and still have it look flawlessly next-gen, either, so, we provide a menu of meaningless L-bend hallways, square rooms, and some of the more interesting rooms from the SP campaign turned into prefabs and call it amazing.

The user-friendly Portal2 level editor is another very good example: distances, sight lines, and jump lengths are very important, and you can customize the shape of every space down to player-sized squares. If their game didn't have the pre-established aesthetic that every level is just a clean white concrete chamber, they may not have even attempted such an editor. Furthermore, it's still just an interesting toy compared to what's possible in Hammer. 
I love the portal editor. I'm sure you can load up the map in hammer and edit it there after 
I bet also it's because they want to horse armour the shit out of additional map pieces.

"For the low, low price of $1.49 you can buy this awesome corridor piece with built in flame trap that will give those demons a toasty surprise they never saw coming!"

"For a limited time only, get all five pieces of the Fallout 4-themed room set for $9.99" 
gb2 modern development DOOMed thread 
"For $4.99 you can unlock the Mancubus..."

It's also, obviously, because they want console users to be able to make levels ... which is ridiculous. But there you go. Level editing that works on the couch is always to be horrifically hobbled on the desktop. 
The way you determine if this is a good idea or not is to ask the devs ... so did you use SnapMap to create the game itself?

If the answer is no, it sucks. 
The bit which cheeses me off is just the bullshit way that they are trying to pass it off as in the spirit of oldskool id.

"With the original DOOM, id software ushered in a new era of user-created content, and now with SnapMap we're pushing this forward and taking it to whole new level, with a toolset that EVERYONE can use to make levels easily and quickly"

It's Funny 
'Everyone' isn't a good thing. Making a mediocre level requires hundreds of hours of practice. Making a good one requires hundreds more.

It's the old yardstick 'Aren't you worried that people will steal your work'.

Nope, never. Even if they steal your stuff, they can't steal the knowledge that you learned in order to create it.

In game level editors are the same - it's a limited scope boiled down to lowest common denominator barrier to entry.

As Lunaran said: Furthermore, it's still just an interesting toy compared to what's possible in Hammer.

And Willem; The way you determine if this is a good idea or not is to ask the devs ... so did you use SnapMap to create the game itself?

Image if they'd released a highly polished version of their PC tools, with all the user interface improvements not usually justifiable when not releasing to the public, with full end user control.

We'd still find stuff to whinge and moan about, but that'd be pretty fucking awesome.

Maybe it could still happen, but I doubt it since in terms of marketability it'd devalue Snapmap. 
I think it's also the name. "SnapMap" feels so fisher-price to me ... 
if the answer is yes, then.... 
Then abandon all hope. 
The fact that they showed two maps and SnapMap in June and didn't say the magic sentence:

This demo was created in SnapMap!

Was already a bit disconcerting. 
As for DLC, the funny thing is I think they won't release a "Classic Doom" or "Q3A Doom" player model.

It's funny, because that would sell. I also missed the classic doomguy costume in Doom 3. But I have a feeling they wouldn't like to release such a thing.

Capcom did a wonderful job with costume packs in the SF4 series, but they already had a long tradition of creating extra assets to please fans. 
Was used for some of the content in the full game but tweaked in the Dev kit. It's in one of the interviews 
So, SnapMap is a prototyping tool. 
Seems right to me. A lot of mappers use the portal 2 editor in the same way. 
Didn't they explicitly say that you can NOT recreate the game in snapmap in one of those cringe-worthy panel shows? 
of course.

One look at the "Hell" level that was shown should make it obvious that shit ain't made from a few L-sections and floor tiles. 
Also, they're not going to use this to charge for map pieces. Doing so would totally fragment the user base into who owned what bits and who could play what, and they're not that dumb. There's already a big enough problem with DLC map packs splitting players into 'bought it' and 'didn't' let alone DLCing one room at a time. 
$3.69 unlocks the "teabag" animation apparently. I think it's a steal at that price. 
It's Kind Of Funny 
The first iteration of Doom4 felt like a typical COD clone ( that would get an once of popularity because of the name before being drowned by the military FPS flood that's still going on today, and would inevitably piss off Doom fans.

And now we have ex-Bungie devs that makes Halo in Hell and it would get an once of popularity before fading off. The situation is similar. And I really doubt Doom4 will have the same ever-lasting appeal of Super Mario Maker: the gameplay feels weak, SnapMap feels very limited and we already talked about the possibility of DLC assets Zenimax will surely try to use to gather more interest in the game but will ultimately fail because not only will it create a gap between those who can buy them and those who can't, but also because the game seems shallow to begin with, and it will take more than patches to fix it. 
if they charged for map pieces, they could still let everyone play the maps you create (the charge could be just to use it in your own maps.)

Just like i don't need to pay $5 to see somebody else walk around in horse armor. 
Well Yeah 
In fact that's how they sell this stuff.

- Person A sees person B with cool shit
- Person A wants cool shit too and opens wallet 
Super Mario Maker seems to have the right level of granularity tho. You don't need to go any deeper than that. 
I Wonder What A SnapQuake Would Be Like 
� No light entities, only surface lights and sunlight.
� No VIS.
� No carving, no vertex manipulation.
� Only prefabs and box-shaped brushes.
� No texture scaling.
� No advanced entity field editing.
� No arbitrary editing of entity parameters; only sliders, lists and checkboxes.
� Grid size fixed at 16 units.
� Entity and prefab rotation around the Y axis only. 
Search for Deathmatch Maker ... 
Func_plat Slider 
slow <-----------> fast 
Max points to WarrenM for the callback. 
Deathmatch Maker

The flashbacks. Aaaaaaaagh.

"A binary grid is obviously too unintuitive - better make it a decimal grid". 
New Screenshots 
Sure looks like it has hallways and whatnot. 
Holy Shit 
Rooms and corridors confirmed. 
I have to admit, it does look a bit better than Doom 3. 
I Thought The Pistol Wouldn't Make It? 
Lost Soul looks rad too 
those cacademons look like miniature figurines covered in jizz, totally artificial 
the extreme DOF is probably why they look miniature. 
Decent beastie design going on there, proper ugly mugs.
But those fucking white/aluminium washed corridors and other base/tech parts give me horrible D3 flashbacks with the eternal fat cable lying around going to a fucking generator or what not, ARGH! "ooooh look we can do smooth cables since D3, lets have them everywhere again!" piss off piss off piss off piss off! :P 
That Looks Pretty Much Like D3 To Me 
Artistically speaking, cables running through a hard surface environment like that add an organic element that works really well. Unfortunately, it CAN be overdone if you go back to that well too many times. :) 
Some of those shots are really nice .. the concept art looks hot. I love the clean look of the sci-fi against the hellscape stuff ... 
My only problem with the art is still the white heads for the hellknights / imps because it just makes me think of goofy 1970s motorcycle cops or something. 
Shots 1, 3, 5: Pretty promising looking, even if there is far too much specularity going on (as was the case in D3 as well).

Others: I'm with nitin on this one, is this Doom 4, or Doom 3 HD? Those bald heads were awful in 2004 and they remain awful in 2016. The models, the textures, the meshes etc. all look like D3 assets tarted up, down to the shapes of the walls. 
At The Very Least 
I now have a decent-ish reference picture for an idea I wanted to do in a Q1SP. 
do almost all monsters appear to have the same color? And it's the same color as the environment, too. In the original Doom, there was so much color variety in the monsters and in the environments, but here, it's all looking quite bland (the monsters more so than the environments).

This is a problem I have had with some recent games anyway: I often couldn't tell the monsters apart and therefore didn't know how to deal with them (what weapon to choose, how much damage to do, etc.). This applies to the low end monsters more than to the bigger ones. Combine this with the duck and cover gameplay due to hitscan enemies where you often only get a glimpse of your opponent, and you have much less control over the encounter.

Even though I don't like the new Cacodemon too much, at least it's colorful and easily distinguished from the other monsters. 
But Sleepwalkr 
Don't you get it? It's realistic! Everybody knows the standarts for AAA graphics is realism coupled with washed out colors because actual colors wouldn't make the game look "serious" and "hellish" enough ;^) 
Looks Like Moar D3. 
But still good to me. 
Giger Heads 
They've even got the pee-hole in the forehead... the special attack is they piss on you?

Who was it who deemed 'cock for a head' as the updated version of this:

They seem to have revised and improved a lot of the other enemy design though, making them more distinctive and cool - the cacodemon, lost soul and revenant all look great.

The low level enemies are complete mix and match generic fodder, true. A few glowing patches (lights, plasma vents or whatever) of different colours for each would help them stand out and fit with their art direction. 
It's Bullshit Is What It Is 
but let's not have that discussion again. First and foremost, the game must make money, not please old schoolers. 
The doom Baron makes me think what about some goddamn dirty fur somewhere, I mean with the hooves/goat like demonic beast thing going on some fur would be cool instead of glistening skin all over the place no ?

Also not all beasts should hyperexitedly charge forward.
It would be cool if some of these hell creatures had an air of superiority/ancienty/veterancy and would assume the Marine is just a minor nuisance to dispatch of with some condescending coolness. 
Classic Doom Baron 
Fur or trousers?

Only Adrian Carmack knows for sure. 
Really snazzy pair of chinos 
Fur Trousers 
It would be cool if some of these hell creatures had an air of superiority/ancienty/veterancy and would assume the Marine is just a minor nuisance to dispatch of with some condescending coolness.

The original Barons were this in spades. 
I was going to say that, actually ... The Barons didn't chase you down. They just waited for you to come back... 
Wasn't The Release Date Already Told To Be 6/6/16? 
Some Of These Are Pretty Cool 
the cacodemons, lost soul and hell chamber are very doom to me.

I wonder if the progression of this will be essentially doom (mars>phobos>deimos>hell).

I fairly sizable portion being hellish might be pretty cool I think. really missed out on that with D3. 
otp, jneeraz exactly, and it really works on you to instill a different sense of respect for the Baron, at least it did for me aeons ago as a new Doom player.

Yah, more hell, less base. We've done base ad-nauseam in D3, I think you can agree also that mostly it does not allow the wild creativity good Hell environments do. I mean the artistic design in D4 hell is looking pretty OK, the base stuff though is looking plain and frankly completely shit and sooooooo boring.
Bases built by demonic military forces IN hell, that gets a pass if the demons "culture" shows through plenty in the base design.

Would be ok with me if Base was the first level of D4 where we immediately find the way into hell and stay there from then on :D 
Like In Quake Then? 
Daya I would actually see a different take on a "base". What would wacky demons build if they were to get militarily organised and decide on building actual bases to defend against a human invasion ?

Q2 strogg are more serious biomechanic so I don't think that take would fit on it.
There are no archviles or Eddy look a like skeletons in Q2.
Doom has a fair amount of humor in its beast designs- eg the mancubus obese beast skin splitting over its own ribcage on death.
That might not seem like humor to everyone but as a horror fan that definately ranks as humoristic and the guy that designed that came up with it at ID surely thought so too.

And Q1 has a quite different arcane vibe to the demonic than Doom. Quake being more lovecraftian.

Doom, lets face it is Thrash metal album cover satanic for the arcane vibe, and so was the midi music retakes/covers of thrash metal classics. 
You've seen the demon's "base" - it's called Hell. 
Kinn, no, that is just their pastural home :D

In the case of responding to a hostile force invading their "world" and to prepare a large scale offensive force their need to organise "bases" to get this going.

Just an idea to design hell in a more utilitarian/military way in parts of it. 
"Hell Base" 
Well, I think the ugliest parts of Doom 3 and 4's (from what I've seen) art design are when they have monsters with an awkward mixture of techy bits and demony bits, so I'd rather not see the environment equivalent of that. 
Hell Base Requirements 
� Full of traps
� Strategically placed portals
� "Anti-purity" blasphemous rituals to keep goodness away
� Deceptive challenges to corrupt the player's soul

Some of those probably wouldn't be fun game mechanics.

Demons usually uses their own bodies as tools or weapons, so their bases are naturally very simple. The complexity is in themselves, not in the environment.

Quake 4 actually has a few fitting examples, like the stroyent-generating monster. 
Yeah, hence suggesting a different take on base. They are not human, do not need high tech, they have magic, I would imagine a more of organic and arcane take on it.
I guess I mean to give a functional layout and sense of purpose to the hell parts to change them up in the prospect of having a game entirely set in the hellish lands without it being random rocks and firey pits all along.

Anyways, fuck it to happening at all if they only offer crippled snapmap. 
In all previous Doom games Hell was already a fortress of bricks and spikes and traps and ambushes. It's already the base, guys. 
Monster base is like a hive. 
Chainsaw Uses Cells? 
What the actual? 
Surely That's A Typo 
They mean the BFG. 
The cells for chainsaw story is all that worries you there ? 
This Pretty Much Confirms Doom4 Will Never Be Moddable 
Definitely into the trash it goes. Oh sure we could get a good game even if it's not moddable but even the quality of the game seems questionnable. 
Direct link

Immersive, dynamic enemy engagement music queueing
Doomguy: Holy Shit!
Panting sounds
Depth of Field effect, zoom and pan on incoming enemy
Doomguy: Good thing I brought my BOOMSTICK!
Cocking noises
Camera shakes, red splats on screen
View turns around, monster is attacking player in melee combat
Reading the source material, I'm even more in the category of This Sounds Dumb. 
""We make a doom game with panic buttons!""

Hahahahahahahhahahahahhahah that guy is right, when you think about it.....WHAT IN THE FRIGGING MOTHERFUCK !!!!!!!!! 
You DIE! reload, try again, get better! 
This reminds me of Doom 64. Its Hell castle maps were perfectly base-like. 
"Both Stratton and Escalation�s president and co-founder Tom Mustaine tell us that they didn�t want to do mods in a traditional way this time." 
Why continue to do something that works well? That would be foolish. 
Fucking CEOs, Producers And Executive People 
Why is it mostly them who fuck everything up in terms of media? 
Because they are doing business, not media. As long as we live in a business based society, that's how it will be. 
But you can still do money and make media at the same time. The basic gist would be to generate enough money for the business to be still alive and enough to make your next projects.

But I guess "gaining enough money" is a curse word in the industry. 
The CEOs, Producers, and Executive people are all developers who have climbed in the company. Two of the top people at id are Tim Willits and Kevin Cloud. As for making "enough money", not that I'm worried about their cash flow, but, employees like paychecks.

No, it doesn't take "suits" to make these bad decisions. The head of Escalation is Tom Mustaine, one of the designers of Scourge of Armagon for Quake. And the Zenimax board has the likes of Jerry Bruckheimer on it, so, artists and developers are making these decisions as well. I've seen plenty of Good Ol Fashioned Game Designers and such make very bad decisions, because, well, sometimes they aren't that smart, or they're reacting to different data than what we can see.

The "Corporate Decision" I dislike is calling it Doom. Leave the name alone, this is the 4th attempt at making Doom, two of which were great. Doom 3 was a reboot, and it didn't tread on the name. 
This Is The 5th Attempt 
And Doom 64 was great. Too bad id didn't let it be called Doom III, as it would originally be. And too bad the producers didn't use a bigger cartridge, that would allow for multiplayer and the remaining monsters to fit. 
Doom 64 Was At First An Original IP By Midway 
The name Doom and its assets were added for marketing appeal. 
No articles or reviews I've read ever stated that. What I know is that it uses a modified Doom engine, multiplayer was planned but cut, the mappers were from the Doom community, and it didn't just include what the market already knew about Doom, but also extra stuff like the Unmaker, which was cut from the original Doom. 
Under the development tag, with references. 
"The Absolution" was just a development title, not a different IP. 
What Mankrip Says 
Why is it mostly them who fuck everything up in terms of media?
Read about "Peter principle". 
Not Sure How Relevant Gameinformer Is 
but this is pretty interesting:

looks like they add a new article/pictures every 1-2 days or so. 
I guess beth/zeni are paying quite the pennies for that level of coverage. 
A Mint Sir ? 
From gameinformers hands on with D4 SP :
"In the deepest southern accent I�ve heard outside of actors overemphasizing it in films, Ms. Donna offers me a breath mint, and tells me in a polite way that I better have a good time playing the game. She winks at me and I am immediately at a loss for words."

" A security guard in full police attire (gold badge and all) sits to her right, smiling pleasantly as he soaks in my awkward exchanges with Ms. Donna."

"Marty Stratton, id Software�s game director and executive producer, bounds down the hall, and whether he knows it or not, comes to my rescue at just the right time. I can�t tell if he�s smiling because he knows we just met Ms. Donna, or he�s eager to show us what he and his team have been working on over the last few years."

The mint has happy drugs in it... 
Its too perfect really.

A mint from a lady: make him self conscious about breath, much higher chances of being accepted without further thought.

Everybody knowingly grinning about.

Little office tour to give time for the pill to act before taking him in to try the game.

I'm joking but then again I wouldn't be too surprised if it turned out such tactics were used on big budget games considering the $$$ vested and the importance of good press at this stage. 
Sounds Like A Porn Story 
Not sure why we've dedicated 3 paragraphs to creeping on the receptionist but whatever... 
KillPixel's Link Shows What Seems To Be The Baron Of Hell 
...or the Hell Knight considering the color scheme, or the Hell Knight has been taken from D3 like in that E3 demo and what we see here is REALLY the Baron of Hell?
Either way, looks neat. Yay for horns coming back. 
I Smell Advertorial. 
Still, it does sound okay. If you ignore the hype and marketting talk. Didn't read the long articles tho, too much words. 
This Goes Well With My Attitude Towards D4 
Sorry for the inconvenience, but there�s an error with your location. 

Yeah I couldn't be bothered to read through all that crap either but I spent a few seconds skipping through a couple of the videos, and I'm now feeling cautiously optimistic. Could be fun. 
From some of the things they say, it seems id may be confusing "fast gameplay" with "busy gameplay".

Most of the time, classic Doom didn't have busy gameplay. But the player could run at high speeds, which was essential to explore the whole level figuring out puzzles, hunting secrets and getting all remaining items before exiting the level.

The way they're talking, it seems their concept of "speed" is solely focused on the battles. I hope I'm wrong.

Yay for horns!

Watching the other videos now. 
"But the player could run at high speeds, which was essential to explore the whole level figuring out puzzles, hunting secrets and getting all remaining items before exiting the level" � without getting bored. 
There's Also The Fact That 
the Game Design was relatively simple: you just run and shoot, you've got items, secrets, you've got to reach the exit, and there's monsters in the way.
It's simple, but the game design allow said simplicity to go beyond what is written on paper: the player's allowed to do whatever he wants from the rules, and monsters can create interesting situations, same thing goes with level design.
Here for Doom4 it feels restricted, and when you try to put restrictions (what it is my guess goes to console pandering) on a simple game design you try to add-on things to try to reach the same "depth" that happened in D1&2 (even though that depth came automatically from the player's perspective, not by artificial means). 
inb4 someone or a small team of modders try to redo from the ground up D4 on iDTech 4 
90s fps = simple mechanics, complex level designs
Modern fps = complex mechanics, simple level designs

In a nut shell 
It's Almost Like 
They're listening to our criticising whinging. 
So, the weapon selection wheel is optional, and there's a quick selection method for weapons. Nice.

However, they mentioned an "upgrade system". For me, upgrade systems reeks of grinding.

In classic Doom, the only upgrade was the backpack, and even back then I didn't like it much. But at least it was an upgrade achieved directly through gameplay, it had a physical interactive presence in the game world (in simple words, it was a pickup item). Now they seem to be using an in-game store for the upgrades.

Let's see how this will turn out. Maybe one purpose of in-game stores is to make sure that players will eventually get the upgrades, since pickup items may sometimes go unnoticed. But I don't think Doom needs this. 
I Like Marty Stratton 
I've been to QuakeCon a few times (1997, 2000, 2002 and 2005) and it's nice to see a guy work his way up through the ranks at id and get to direct a dream project. At the events I saw him at he always seemed liked the hardest working guy of the bunch, very approachable and direct. I'm rooting for D4 myself and I liked the alpha although it was pretty bare bones. 
I like upgrades and RPG-lite stuff, if it's done well. It gives a bit of a reward for exploring around and finding the stuffs etc.

OTOH, Daz is very correct with his assessment, maybe the most succinct summation of where it's all gone wrong. 
Upgrades Can Be Good In Fps 
Hard reset or shadow warrior comes to mind 

Upgrades and rpg-lite...

What about doom beat on "take it easy" = Doom proficiency +3!
Fucking improving your own fucking skills is all the RPG you need in a Doom FPS ffs.
Here you can even play weapon upgrade with a new mouse = aiming +1! Even take a few graphic tweaks for some extra FPS = Reflexes & Accuracy +1.

Fucking tits.

Its gonna be whinge & whine all the way till release I am afraid :P 
Hard Reset had a better upgrade system than Shadow Warrior, because the store was a physical place in the game world.

Anyway, I just hope it doesn't turn into a "perform 60 fatalities to upgrade your pistol, or kill 10 Hell Knights with the chainsaw to upgrade your shotgun" grindfest. 
THe monster design is lame for some monsters- Very., very lame.

I don't care about recreating doom perfectly but I would settle for a good, doom inspired frantic game full of challenging action. But I don't think doom 4 will be good, it will be mostly ruined by bad, cramped level design and the pinata mechanics making the combat difficulty and tension trivial (my predictions) 
A thing I don't get is how Id Software ISN'T an independent study making games for the sake of making good games. Didn't they earn "fuck you" money way back then? What the fuck happened. Did they seriously mismanage their capital for doom 3 and rage? 
2013 Shadow Warrior Feelings 
Busy gameplay with fast combat but slow map navigation. Let's hope not.

It worked well enough for the 2013 Shadow Warrior because that game is basically a first-person beat-em-up; mastering the sword is way more effective than shooting.

Slow map navigation sucks. Quake 4 was disappointing in that the running speed was slower than Quake's walking speed. It felt more realistic, but realistic constraints aren't fun. 
They mismanaged their human capital. Plus, maybe they just got bored.

They needed a kind of Romero to pump things up. The last id game that was true to its roots, imo, was Quake III Arena. 
You guys are great at parties aren't you? 
It's just reality. I mean, id hasn't done a kick ass game in quite a long time. RAGE was good but that was about it .. good. They haven't done great in ages. 
Id hasn't done a good game since Doom 3. Rage sucked. There's no reason to have faith in it. However, I do feel it's populair to hate on it regardless of quality or not. 
Fuck if its popular or not to hate on sub par shit produced by studios that have no fucking valid excuse for it. Mediocrity from professionals should be shit on 
I played Rage and Doom 3 both for just the second time last month. I would say that the games are too different to call one better than the other.

However, Rage was probably more fun the second time around than the first. On the other hand, Doom 3 was almost too annoying to play.

The Doom 3 lighting is very hard on the eyes, really fatiguing, and I was sick and tired of randomly spawning monsters by the third level.

I mean really, how did that imp know to be waiting behind that wall for me to walk past? Did they build the base around it? Jeez.

As far as Doom 4, I have not got much hope. 
For me, it comes down to looking for signs that a developer understands their own franchise. The moment I saw stylized execution animations, I knew that whatever remains of id does not. 
Rage would've been great if it was less ambitious.

Cut all the minigames, half of the sidequests, most of the talking and anything else that gets in the way of the action, and Rage becomes a great game.

Same for Doom 3. Resurrection of Evil is what Doom 3 should have been.

FPS developers should let the overambitious cinematic inventory-management projects to the indie MMORPG crowd, and focus on adrenaline-fueled acrobatic visceral heart-pumping action & navigation. In my humble opinion� 
In The Case Of Rage 
what mankrip said is true. The combat is fun. But in the case of Doom 3, it's not. It's just no fun. 
I've played Doom 3 and Rage end-to-end twice, which is more times than I've done for most SP games. They aren't great games, but there's a reliable core of good shooting in there that I can kind of happily chug along with, once I've tuned in to how the game works/feels.

I don't have super high expectations for Doom 4 but I do think it's premature and kind of wet-blanket-y just to rage about how bad it is destined to be. 
I recently played through Lost Missions for Doom 3 and it was a chore. Rage has far better gameplay and is a bit overlooked. Oh well. 
I remember liking Rage for what it was. I wasn't expecting the 2nd coming of Doom, but several levels were very well designed and the monster design felt solid all the way through. The tech was/is a huge disappointment, and the ending was terrible. But the core of the game was promising. 
That Regenerating Health Though 
Sounds like some of you just want a doom 2 clone. Random levels that have no purpose and feel like video game levels, constantly pressing buttons to open doors which makes no sense in real life, hordes of monsters, no story, no purpose, no upgrades or character progression other than picking up a new weapon.

I don't think the consolers or the critics would like that. 
That's an unfortunate interpretation. 
Why does it have to "make sense in real life"? 
Actually, I'm pretty tired of the endless remaking of Doom. What I'd really like is a good modern remake/reimagination of the original Quake. Something like what was done with Tomb Raider 2013. Wishful thinking probably. Nobody would agree on what it should be like anyway. 
Doom2's level design is regarded as definitively weaker than in 1, the worst being those city levels which are the literal definition of "where the FUCK do I go" 
I was skeptic too. But the more I see, the less skeptic I�m becoming. The E3 reveal was great. They gave us what we wanted (as in MP and an Editor). Now, the alpha test wasn�t terrible but gameplay is too slow and loadouts don�t work in an arena setup. I played for hours and everybody was just spamming rockets. Nothing else. Modifiers can change that though.

The SP reveal was slow. But I�ve read several previews, spoken with people who played it and they all confirm it�s actually really fast paced. The finishers take only � seconds and don�t interrupt the flow, you can still switch weapons without the cirkel menu and the cirkel menu is actually welcome due to the short pause in all the chaos.

The levels are bigger, less cramped, have lots of verticality. No regen, no cover, just all out warfare. Collecting keys like in the old days, lots of secrets, different routes, etc. Also, 3 distinct styles (Industry, Labs/offices and Hell).

If they release an SDK as well, I really do think it has potential. 
I want to see a single-player gameplay video played with keyboard & mouse, and focused on the puzzles.

So far the only puzzle I've seen is the hologram playback one.

Classic Doom was full of puzzles that affected the level layout in diverse ways. Raising bridges, lowering floors, creating caves� There was a lot more than just opening doors. And such puzzles often had parts scattered across large portions of the level, encouraging fast-paced navigation and exploration.

Heck, I'm pretty much describing the kinds of Quake maps made by people here. :-) 
I was reading the thread on Blue's News about Windows 10 and I think I've noticed some parallels between the comments there and the comments here. Some might say that our generation is cynical and hard to please, but to me all we are really doing is saying if it ain't broke don't fix it. Particularly, DO NOT, introduce compromising, invasive, dumbed-down, annoying "features" in an effort to get more money. Innovation isn't bad in of itself - it's innovations that are directly bad for users and transparently motivated by corporate greed, that are bad. 
Windows 10 Is Really Good Though. 
Yeah, I'm liking it so far. One or two small nitpicks but nothing that would stop me from using it. 
Used And Abused 
In my opinion Windows 10 is nothing less than spyware. I see absolutely no reason to use it. I've been replacing it with Linux at every opportunity. 
Linux? I can understand not using Windows 10 but you don't have to punch yourself in the nuts at the same time. That's just mean. 
Windows 10 is generally a decent piece of software but the amount of spying is pretty insane. 
it is a video game, not sure how fighting demons on mars is 'real life' and really most game stories are C grade garbage. All that stuff, if it is necessary at all, should be secondary to actually good game mechanics and level design. 
Okay John Carmack 
(actually I totally agree, the only part of Carmack's views I disagree with is hyper-simple gameplay). 
The demons are not real?

Next you'll be telling me that the Seal of Nehahra wasn't a documentary 
kona, is porn stupid because women wouldn't be willing to have sex with you in real life 
Im just gonna say here I'm holding back from ranting away and this is better for everyone. 
Noooo :-( 
Promises, promises... 
About That Gameplay. 
Video here
Sounds like some of you just want a doom 2 clone. Random levels that have no purpose and feel like video game levels, constantly pressing buttons to open doors which makes no sense in real life

On the subject of classic doom chat, that Romero map has prompted me to have a big Doom binge, and the overwhelming impression I have from the level design in classic Doom/Doom2 is that they don't care that's it's a completely chaotic layout where most of the time you find the key before you find the door, because you just look at the minimap to figure out where you haven't been yet and where you need to go next.

People like to bang on about "oh look at how dumbed down modern levels are now, why can't they be like classic Doom", but without the minimap, the whole thing completely and utterly breaks down.

Just my opinion.

Seeing the change in level design philosophy between Doom and Quake, and the corresponding abandonment of the minimap is very interesting. 
Re 1017 
That actually sounds quite good, and if the game plays like this, I suppose it will be fun. I just have a hard time imagining how such gameplay would work on a console without the player dying all the time, so it sounds unlikely that the game really plays in the way that they described in the video. But I will reserve final judgement until after I have actually played it. 
Kinn - Agreed. Doom level was design, to me, was mostly chaos where you could almost see inside the level designers head as you progressed through. 
Gotta be honest, that video raises my hopes. 
Seeing the change in level design philosophy between Doom and Quake, and the corresponding abandonment of the minimap is very interesting.

Yeah, it is. Nevermind doom4's weapon wheel and glory kills, the occasional long periods of searching for secrets/door/switches really breaks the momentum of classic doom's core gameplay.

Since doom is nothing but combat there is no story or aesthetic to make those times more interesting. Then again, it would be difficult to fall back on story and atmosphere with a tempo and player speed as fast as doom. 
the occasional long periods of searching for secrets/door/switches really breaks the momentum of classic doom's core gameplay.

The thing that really surprised me is just how much time I spend in the map screen (it's a lot), and how often I find myself just backtracking over the whole level whilst staying within the map screen.

Quite often, the critical path is hidden behind a secret wall and you only figure out where you need to UNF UNF UNF by looking at the map. 
I played the multiplayer on a weekend where I could have played *all weekend* and I uninstalled after 2 hours of utter hate.

I really hope the singleplayer delivers because I was really unimpressed with the 'watered-down halo' experience. 
Doom4 Exploration 
The thing that really surprised me is just how much time I spend in the map screen (it's a lot), and how often I find myself just backtracking over the whole level whilst staying within the map screen.

I'm on a bit of a doom binge myself and noticed excessive time in the minimap. Of course, if I could just remember all the secrets this wouldn't be an issue :P

I'm curious to see how doom4 is going to incentivize exploration and secrets. Since you just have to glory kill enemies to get extra health I suppose they'll just fall back on primarily weapons/ammo. I doubt secrets will be very rewarding/impactful as I'm sure they don't want to compromise gameplay for non-explorers.

Doom's exploration and minimap isn't perfect and can be frustrating, but many times simply finding the secret is rewarding in and of itself... so much so that one will sit and look at a minimap for 5 minutes just to find it. 
With IDDT I even used to kill stuff in the map. Let alone wandering all around. 
A map system similar to the one in Metroid Prime would be pretty cool. I'm not sure how much it would make the game feel more like the classics, though. 
Descent was 3D and had a 3D map, but the level design was still very much from the "here's a maze full of keys, get lost sucker" school of thought. 
Ok so the silly pinata drops come from executions etc, maybe could be seen as a demonic reward for brutal and evile actions, that's a concept that can be worked with for some better immersion in the setting.

So without debating the wrongness of the whole health/armor dropped by monster thing could they of maybe not used those stupid q4a like techy symbols for the drops ?

Something more fitting could be a glowing floating orb of blood or a suspended mist of sorts, I dunno, something that at least ties in "magic" with the stupid concept to pass the pill. Anything better than "here is a floating glowing easy enough for a 3rd grader to understand" symbol. 
I have the impression the game is being made for 3rd graders, thats the target-audience with the most money to spent, and the least "taste" in that regard.
In my impression. 
A third grader understands that red cross = health, does that make the original Doom stupid too?

Everybody hated UT3's utterly hamfisted explanations of CTF and respawning and Doom 4 not doing that is a good decision. 
A third grader knows that it's "could they have", not "could they of". 
A third grader feels that correcting people's spelling mistakes in a petty way is worth their while. 
A third grader nitpicks grammar and misses the point of the message. 
I'm not sorry for calling bits of UT3 bad. 
Don't work there anymore, don't care... 
Glowing Symbols. 
Done by the players hud, I assumed.

Video looks fine. 
Colored orbs are not too hard to understand either you know, pick it up once and you know what it is for the rest of the game.

Its just the complete out of context abstract sci-fi ness of an already out of context feature.
What justifies sleek fucking 3D glowing desktop icons jumping out of abused and torn up demon flesh ?
As I said floating orbs of pulsating/glowing gelatinous dripping blood would make waaaaay more sense and at least feel only half as cheap. 
Yeah, I didn't like the "kill the monster in a fancy way and it'll drop more health" thing. Doesn't really fit. 
Last time I played it is pretty explicitly a thing that is done by the player's helmet's visor. First time you put it on it does like a bootup sequence and enables highlighting stuff.
The actual objects that drop are like little canisters or something. 
Great, can I not put the helmet on please?
Id rather walk around with a soft squishable head for the demons benefit than see that crap :D

Anyways, biggest gripe of all : I do so wish they had made it moddable and properly mappable.

For fucks sake it is the life blood of immortality for Doom... 
As I Said. 
What CZG said. Kinda obvious. 
Hey guyz I hear some of the demons have techy bits sticking out of them and stuff. Aesthetically Doom has always been an inconsistent and nonsensical mess, so it really doesn't bother me if it turns out there's not a well-thought-out backstory for why monsters drop pickups. 
Oh, I don't want or care about a thought out backstory, just some level of consistency that my brain can get it's teeth into. The original Doom, for all it's weirdness, had that. The universe seemed consistent with itself and I could accept whatever I was seeing.

Monsters dropping more or less health based on how flashy the space marine makes their death ... eehhhh.... I dunno. 
Kinn I find there is this possible degree of consistence of theme within inconsistent fantastical stuff, even in a hodge-podge like Doom.

These things can and should follow some sort of logic within the fantasy.

Simply put it helps with the willing suspension of disbelief, or the immersion so to speak.

Here in this case when the items drop from the monsters it just screams, amongst other things "competitive multiplayer FPS a la q4a" and that takes me right out of the mood/vibe going on there in SP.

I mean all that effort in the hell environment and the beasts and then *that* pops out after their goreporn execution. It is seriously what the fuck, really why ? It boggles the mind, such a small thing to do right, but whatever.

So that bothers, it is sort of minor...or not. And if it doesn't bother you well good for you I guess :P 
There Warren said it better above. Wouldn't of bothered had I seen it. 
You need to drop health and ammo from monsters if your gameplay is centered around respawning-horde checkpoints. 
Speaking Of Which 
Now I'm wondering if we'll get those intermission screens after each levels. That would at least a bit more replayability. 
Kinn I find there is this possible degree of consistence of theme within inconsistent fantastical stuff, even in a hodge-podge like Doom.

These things can and should follow some sort of logic within the fantasy.

The latter is a very good point, unfortunately it doesn't work in your favour as firstly the original DOOM really has no internal logic, and secondly the current one is trying to give some logic - e.g. soldier's helmet highlighting healthable items - which you don't like. 
The Monsters Should Drop Potions 
You know, blue potions. Each one giving a 2% health boost.

And sometimes, megaspheres, invisibility spheres, and megahealth spheres.

That would integrate the old demonic items' designs into the new gameplay mechanics. 
Enemies Should Just Drop Invulnerability Spheres 
I'm really surprised my viewpoint is the fringe one here. So the gameplay designers on this doom game seem to have decided that enemies dropping items on "special" kills is fun and rewarding, and people on func have issues that it seems too...gamey and unbelievable? Are you sure there aren't other things about doom that are completely and utterly abstract and arcadey? 
They want an exact clone of Doom with higher video requirements. That's all. If they don't get exactly that they'll cry as if Doom itself has been taken away from them and they can't just go back and play it any more. 
Thanks for speaking for the group, Lun, but that's not really how we all think. 
so is it a thing that static item pick ups are no longer a good thing? 
That makes sense, actually.

Street Fighter IV went that route. It's graphically refined, but the gameplay strictly follows the 2D foundations of SSFIIT. They added some new mechanics, but the foundations are the same.

That's the approach that the classic Doom fans crave for, and modern gamers would most likely also enjoy it. Only the Doom 3 fans would be left out. But this game clearly is a mix of classic Doom with Doom 3, at least aesthetically.

Anyway, today's id is clearly trying to do their best, and hopefully the game will be really good. 
My Previous Replay Was For #1053 
Eek, Reply. 
Not replay. My phone keyboard is drunk. 
I Was Mostly Speaking For Killes 
Lun you get me wrong, I welcome new ideas to a Doom sequel, it just depends which ideas.

All in all so far I am actually looking forward to playing Doom 4, it actually seems like a fresh FPS for once.
I am thankful it at least not looking to be like Doom3 or Call of Doom.

BUT within this newfangled non stop smooth swimming action Doom, which they do seem to be making an (honest?) attempt at there are some truly ?huh? decisions going on. Especially seeing that seemingly an effort IS being made. So far based on articles id say there is 70% good ideas and 30% crap. If the good ideas are well implemented enough it will outshine the crap and make a decent game.

People will not be playing it 20 years later though, they made sure of that.

And I don't even want a high def remake of Doom2, what the fuck for? I have no problems with the originals gfx. 
Not that a high def remake of Doom1/2 would be so bad either after all but I mean its OK, we have actual Doom1/2 with an infinity of content. Doesn't need to be invented.
But surely a FPS as good and timeless as the original could be created by a modern triple A studio some day ? No ? 
One day Killes. There's money to be made in a fast-paced action shooter with explorative, creative level design and layouts like D2 (and moreso Quake). 
Thank You I Feel Better Now. 
Doom 4 Enemies Dropping Items Isnt An Issue 
But it needs to make sense. Right now it's basically shoot ANY demon and you get a pinata situation of loot.

Doom enemies have always dropped ammo and guns, but they dropped for whatever they are carrying. Chaingunners drop bullets, soldiers drop shells. It wouldn't be out of the question for mancubus's to drop plasma, revenants to drop rockets.... just has to make sense! Imagine if you shot a dog in Quake and it dropped packs of rockets, you'd wonder what the fuck was going on!

Dropping health isn't an issue either. In Blood the enemies would occasionally drop a bleeding heart which served as a health pickup, it was basically your enemies soul. Doom could surely do this instead of dropping medkits. Or hell, have a zombie soldier who is a medic... problem fucking solved!

IMO this is a case of poor design language and exposition than merely poor design. 
"Doom enemies have always dropped ammo and guns, but they dropped for whatever they are carrying. Chaingunners drop bullets, soldiers drop shells."

Yes, this. I always appreciated that. Shooters that don't give you what the enemy was carrying can be frustrating.

"He had a shotgun! Where'd it go?!" 
Heh, Gears did this fairly well but was stingy with ammo for obvious reasons ... It was always weird to grab an enemies gun and be like, "Huh, he had 3 bullets left. Guess I could have just waited him out..." 
For the record, I think id should just hand their IPs over to MachineGames and let them handle it from here on you. The latest Wolfenstein games were WONDERFUL. 
"here on out". Thanks Obama. 
Fifth Summed It Up 
Perfect explanation. 
I Was Writing A Lengthy Reply On The Two Different Systems 
But Fifth said it better than me. 
Fifth gave birth to our point. Thank you Fifth :) 
News Flash 
Here, I've fixed it for you lot:

So in Doom there is obviously an omnipotent god-like demon that is playing with you; he's the one responsible for masterminding things like all the extremely contrived and balanced arena-like combat challenges; the very convenient placement of power-ups that none of the other monsters seem bothered about hiding from you; and the way he often opens magic doors to allow you to continue when you kill a certain number of demons - to name but just a few examples.

So this omnipotent meta-demon - turns out he's also really impressed when you kill a monster in a gratuitous and grotesque up-close-and-personal way - it tickles him in just the right way - and he (maybe she?) rewards you with some random loot when you do this, because how the Hell (hehehe) is that any crazier than all the other silly ways he has challenged and rewarded you throughout the game?

You're welcome. We now return to our regularly scheduled programme... 
Yeah, but this metam demon would distribute heatlh rewards in the form of fetid gelatinous globs of floating blood you have to ingest to get the benefits of. And not fucking desktop icons. 
Gameplay Rules 
Enemies shouldn't drop health because otherwise there's no reason to explore.

I think Jneerz Janeerss... Willem mentioned that earlier on.

Its the same reason why I didn't like the flamer guy in Quoth - getting hit by him was trivial because he dropped a health pack.

As to realism or internal logic - who gives a fuck? The original Doom certainly didn't and was a great game for it.

The game play must rule all in order for it to be a good game.

'Why does X happen?'
'Because it makes the game more fun.'

If thats not the answer to that question then the game is either being made less fun, or having the amount of fun it contains diluted. Just by the inclusion of feature X. 
That was answered many posts ago - the player's helmet (ooh matron!) is doing a google-glass thingy to add graphical overlays on stuff and whatnot. 
"As to realism or internal logic"

I think there's a disconnect here for a lot of people. When we talk about internal consistency that doesn't necessarily imply realism. It means a rule set that the game adheres to that makes sense - in context of the game world. 
I lean more towards the view that ijed also shares with me - that gameplay fun should always take priority above in-universe "logic".

But even so, I think my post #1072 lays out a case for how this really isn't at odds with the other stuff that happens in Doom (going by classic Doom rules at least)

If it's weird that demons drop rockets or whatever, how is that any weirder than when you come across the same things in the environment but arranged neatly in the shape of a pentagram, or a circle or something? (ref: Doom 1, Doom 2) Who the fuck put them there? 
Yeah I Know 
But if the game logic is clean and well constructed enough, anything that would otherwise seem odd just goes by without a second thought.

For example, in Doom's hanger level there was a string of armour helmet upgrades along one computer wall.

Nobody cared because the game's internal logic didn't. It's a game about running around really fast shooting demons from hell with shotguns and hitting them with chainsaws.

That nihilistic arcade adrenaline is a special thing that Doom tapped into.

And, as was mentioned earlier in the thread, the original game could be played as a type of asteroids clone if you just left the minimap turned on. This was discussed in that vectorpoem / Coelcanth blog post ages ago. 
Yeah That 
OK 2 things :

1 : the drops kill exploration as said before. They also kill the perceived value of pick ups.
If they are automatically dished out by enemies - it just doesn't matter anymore - something hurts me, it also heals me, so I just don't care so much if the enemy might hurt me, he is much less threatening because he cancels out his threat.

Its different when you know there are only so many resources to be found and if you waste them by sucking your gonna run dry and die.

In truth I feel it is a bit of a veiled attempt at getting god damn fucking regenerating health in there. That you have to hide under cover 10 seconds or pick up an automatically and reliably dropped health pack is the same shit, just the latter is a faster implementation of it.

Still, BFG panic button and regenerating health = shit to make the game not upsetting to vocal bratty cunts that like their entertainment non challenging and spoon fed.

Admitted Doom 4 does not look that easy so lets say these are maybe concessions that had to be made to appease investors in the enterprise.
But that is what they are and not smart fun or otherwise positive ideas towards the betterment of the game.

2 : the helmet highlights stuff. OK, then please may it be the one causing this particular orb of floating blood to glow/pulsate indicating it is of value to the marine. And not a nondescript can of soda dropped from flesh and circuits. 
Having a meta explanation like that for development laziness makes do a little internal scream.

It's not asking a lot of the designers to add some logical context. If doom can do it 21 years ago then I don't see why they have to be lazy with development today.

Maybe the gameplay will make up for it... but I feel like I'm saying that a lot these days.

"the MP alpha was shit, maybe the singleplayer will make up for it"

"the design decisions are stupid, maybe the gameplay will make up for it" 
My point is that it's no less logical than the rest of the nonsensical stuff that formed the design of Doom 1 and 2.

My other point is that I personally don't give a flying fig that it's nonsensical, and that we really shouldn't have to justify every abstract game mechanic with an in-universe explanation... but a lot of you seem to think that we need to, and therefore I suggested (tongue-in-cheek) an explanation that is no less daft than the one you naturally have to invoke to explain all the other crazy stuff you saw in Doom 1 and 2 - if you really think it needs explaining, that is.

Doom 1 and 2 really does not have much internal consistency or logic. Very little of it makes sense. I don't understand why people are pretending that it does. The level design was stuffed to the brim with wierd one-off environmental cause/effect interactions that make no sense whatsoever. 
Anyway I think it's worth pointing out that I am aware that this new monster drop CRISIS has two components:

1) The argument that it makes no in-universe sense that monsters drop items on melee death. I have laid down a lot of words saying why I think this argument is utter bollocks

2) The argument that it's bad for gameplay that monsters drop items on melee kills, saying it cheapens things etc. That is actually a valid argument, but I will not join that argument because I have absolutely zero evidence right now that it's a bad thing. (Killes' argument on this is based around a lot of assumptions on how the rest of the game will play, but I'm going to reserve judgement on this until I actually play the game). 
"Doom 1 and 2 really does not have much internal consistency or logic."

I think you're wrong on this. Can you cite examples of where the game conflicts with itself? 
Maybe the meta demon works at Microsoft. 
"My point is that it's no less logical than the rest of the nonsensical stuff that formed the design of Doom 1 and 2. "

Huh? Shotgunners drop shells and bullets. Chaingunners drop bullets. The rest are pickups. You could have certain enemy types drop ammo that makes sense.

That's far more logical than the current implementation and also your suggestions.

Personally I think it's lazy and we shouldn't be so forgiving of it. If the game is fun most people will overlook it, but they shouldn't have to. 
This Discussion. 
Congrats guys you have ruined Doom4 for everyone who's read it, regardless of whether the game is good or not. 
Weren't We Just Posting Our Opinions Towards What We've Been Shown? 
That's the problem. 
I'm Actually More Hopeful. 
At first it seemed to be a brainless remake, but now it's clear that id is trying to make a proper game out of it. 
What? Who really gives a fuck about some people think of a game before anyone has even played it? I doubt this thread will have any impact on people's experience with doom. 
I think you're wrong on this. Can you cite examples of where the game conflicts with itself?

The level design is full of completely abstract elements that behave in ways the player can't anticipate unless he presses the use key on the right thing, which just looks the same as another thing which does nothing. I'm not talking about secrets, I'm talking about elements that actually block player progression. Things like when the designer forgets that doors and platforms are supposed to look like doors and platforms, and expects the player to press "use" on all the crates until he finds that one crate that behaves like a platform, or that one bit of wall identical to all the other bits of wall. There's loads of places like this and they're not secrets - I think Doom 2 is the worst offender here. Often secrets are easier to find than the actual way forward. After a while it really doesn't bother me; I can appreciate the quirky old-school charm of it, but please don't pretend that Doom 1 / 2 were highly logical games with such a wonderfully consistent visual language.

Huh? Shotgunners drop shells and bullets. Chaingunners drop bullets. The rest are pickups. You could have certain enemy types drop ammo that makes sense.

Firstly, I thought it was only mentioned that the new Doom's demons would drop health and armour - I don't recall anyone saying they drop ammo unrelated to the monster. Secondly, and for the last fatherfucking time, I really don't care how daft it is that monsters drop health and armour. It's a game :) 
Regarding nonsensical stuff being okay in Doom2 and games back then, it was only okay back then because Doom2 was the benchmark.

The whole realism and logical stuff is important, because it helps your immersion into a game. id failed at immersion with Doom, but it didn't matter because it was just a fun as fuck game.

In the 20 years since then developers have realised that the more realistic a game, the more the player can put themselves into that role and be immersed into the game.

I don't want to see a big glowing windows icon in front of me - leave that for Sonic and other lame children's games. But the same goes for the rest of the game, shit has to make sense and be logical. I don't want to me be reminded that I'm just playing a video game.

Unless it's aiming to be a multiplayer game. Multiplayer gamers don't seem to care as much they just want shooting monotony. 
We'll agree to disagree. 
"id failed at immersion with Doom, but it didn't matter because it was just a fun as fuck game."

I seriously disagree with that. When I first played Doom, I was totally consumed and into the game world. The world melted away and all I saw was the level I was playing ... if that's not immersion, I don't know what is. 
I Repeat 
which part of blowing up monsters in hell does not remind you of a video game and makes sense and is logical?

Also, what JneeraZ said. Immersion is much more than 'realistic'. In fact most the 'realistic' games actually end up breaking immersion more because they go out of their way to try and be realistic and yet the inherent gamey stuff in the game always stops it from being so. 
It's Poor Terminology 
I think what Kona is driving at is the conveyance. The universe the game asks you to play within has such depth and imagination that you can suspend your disbelief enough to buy into the game much more.

Which is a great thing.

But. In the late 90's it was termed realism, and many people took the word at face value, trying to make sorry arse simulations and call them games.

The past few syearssince, where games hadevelopment s come within the reach of common man, have seen a Renaissance of sorts, all those who grew up on games like doom trying to recapture that simple fun the old games had, avoiding the death of fun in games design called realism.

Now that the collective gamer culture is getting free of that fad, we see beleaguered old id coming up with a reboot which actually seems like it's not a petty cash grab.

From what I can tell, it seems like they're genuinely trying to bring the ideals of Doom2 to 2016. God help them, they're even listening to the fans.

It's a bold move, (billions of $ at stake) and yet I don't think there's anyone who genuinely wants to see it fail.

But then again, you need an awesome filter to talk to fans. They talk shite for the most part... 
Yeah ijed conveyance might be a better word for it.

"I seriously disagree with that. When I first played Doom, I was totally consumed and into the game world. The world melted away and all I saw was the level I was playing ... if that's not immersion, I don't know what is."

But when did you first play Doom JneeraZ? Was it before Quake, Unreal, HalfLife (which all massively improved immersion, in that order)? The same could probably be said for Pong when it first came out in the 70s, but it couldn't be considered immersive now. Just as Doom couldn't be considered as immersive as, say, Skyrim. 
I still find doom immersive, I could argue more so than skyrim.

Doom is its own little microcosm with laws and predictable behavior resulting from those laws. To me, this little world is very immersive; everything simply clicks which makes it easier to 'get in the game'. I think doom's unrealistic aesthetics helps it to be immersive.

In my experience, skyrim's mechanics were not nearly as engaging. The game was much more realistic looking, sure, but the closer you get to looking 'real' the more glaring and 'immersion breaking' the things inconsistent with reality become.

immersion =/= reality simulator

I don't believe there is a set of rules or formula that makes things immersive, It's unique to each game.

I count system shock 2, riven and morrowind as some of the most immersive games I've ever played and they all achieved this immersion in different ways. Games don't have to be consistent with reality, just consistent with themselves.

Fuck, I'm tired and rambling and saying a whole lot of nothing... 
Immersion Comes From Mood 
Music, lighting, artstyle, those 3 when put together correctly produces immersion.
Doom is immersive by putting us into a world that makes no architectural sense, but the musics (more effective when ambient, like E1M8, E2M2 and so on), lighting depth and said unrealistic architecture (which works in a way because you could say the architecture reflect the demons' twisted beings) makes for immersion.
Unreal is better at being an immersive game than Quake 2 because of its big open spaces, more ambient music (which goes to combat mode whenever you fight an important enemy), varied colored lighting, its skyboxes and varied locations, which consist of multitudes of caves, temples, villages and spaceships. Quake 2 has orange at its dominant lighting, blasts metal music 24/7, and we just have bases, warehouses, prisons and sometimes outdoor areas for environment: cold and dull environment. Sure, it's a more realistic setting (Sure it's an alien world but if it took place on earth no one would notice the difference). 
*it's A More Realistic Setting, But That Doesn't Mean It's More 
For sure, I suppose many people have trouble getting immersed in non reality-logic environments and designs, that would explain many trends in game design/gfx.

Disclaimer : that's not a dig at people, it just is, different brains and all. 
was much more immersive for me than Half Life.

Also plenty of modern day quake levels are more immersive than a number of modern games. 
I Like To 
Make my levels longer so that they're more immersive.

Quake's gameplay is engaging, so if you have a well executed theme that is immersive then you get the conveyance. 
Your Rrp Map 
is a great example of what I was referring to. 
so it does come back down to gameplay and atmosphere no?

I mean quake has pickups etc, gameplay mechanics arent always realistic or logical but does it really matter. 
story, character upgrade/progress, it's all faff if you dont have the basics. 
But there will always be a personal taste element to it as well, which is where I think a lot of the disagreements in this thread come from.

Some people like jazz, others metal, others techno etc etc. One piece of music can be objectively as good as another of a completely different type, but won't be liked as much by different people because of their individual tastes.

Its a safe bet that anyone commenting here likes FPS games, but even within that genre, there is a massive breadth of variety. 
I Just Watched The "breaking The Modern Shooter Mold" Video 
And the glowing icons actually make total sense from a game design perspective.

Remember that other thread about "is modern game development doomed?". Remember the replies about the ammo boxes in Quake being huge because the player must notice them at any costs?

In Doom 4, the ammo pickup models have a more realistic size, which means they would be harder to see. The floating icon over the ammo solves that.

Sure, the floating icon don't match the style of the game's objects, but it does match the style of the helmet visor/HUD, so it's actually perfectly consistent in terms of game design & art design.

The inconsistency is not within Doom 4 itself, but with the atmosphere of the classic Doom games. Classic Doom didn't have a Half-Life style glowing HUD or Metroid Prime style glowing visor.

It seems that the only Doom game they got some HUD inspiration from for the Doom 4 visor is Doom 3, and then they expanded upon it.

Making the floating icons optional or being able to select a more subtle set of icons could solve that, at the cost of gameplay awareness or artistic style consistency, respectively. 
Make It Like Metal Gear Rising 
Where pickups in the player's vision materializes a high-tech-style arrow that highlights the item's silhouette and at the end of the arrow make a small text that describes what it is (Health + 20, Bullets + 10...) 
"Questions from the community" video:

My first reaction was to feel sorry for Marty. He seems to be going through hell to get this game done.

Anyway, my fears about the map puzzles were confirmed: They're focusing on not letting the players get lost, so the layout style of the maps should be like the style of the maps in the 2013 Shadow Warrior: everything but the secrets is straightforward, and each map should be just a semi-linear series of battle arenas.

A satisfying combat system can make the game fun, alright. But it won't be enough to honor the legacy of the gameplay of the classics. 
Something I Noticed In The First E3 Gameplay Video 
The way from the first ambush up to the bloody half-opened door is effectively a circle. 
Lack Of Willits Is Odd 
I wonder if he's resigning but has a deal with zeni to not announce it until after doom is released.

Also, im sure the pressure on straton is unreal. The guy needs a hug. 
Promising Sounding Bits

In terms of level-design, id goes back to the roots. Tubes like in Call of Duty are frowned upon, the levels in the reboot span multiple floors, contain hidden secrets and old-fashioned keycards. After over a decade of presumed casual-shooters, it's not that easy (even with two- and three-dimensional automap) to get an overview.

Snapmap gives you access to all objects, enemies and environments, that id Software made for Doom (2016). The editor is mainly set up for pre-made rooms, which you can easily stick together. However, you can then change everything in detail: Sound effects, lighting, decorations, the amount and strength of enemies, door-placement, consoles, stairs and keycards. Yes, even the HUD can be changed to fit the mapper's needs.

On top of that, there's the scripting language, that allows complex algorithms by simple connection of logic chains. Imagine it like this: You place an enemy and tell the game, that a door is supposed to open when it dies. Or you connect a switch with a weapon and arrange it that the weapon is only supposed to appear when the player hits the switch - and on the side, a different music track should play and a couple of hell knights should spawn in the room.
Marty actually said that bosses won't be available in SnapMap, because their size and code would overcomplicate things. Not a big loss, though.

What I liked the most in that article: Upgrades aren't bought, they're collected like regular items. There seems to be no grinding then.

The talk of "upgrade points" in the maps sounds like the Dr. Light spots in MegaMan X, which is a great thing.

The jetpack sounds cool, and the item drops from the executions seems to depend on the equipped upgrades; I'm actually neutral about this last bit, will only be able to judge this after playing the game.

Apparently, it's cerebral because health packs.

Also, SnapMap is an amazing editor ... as amazing as Little Big Planet was.

So ... hype? :-/ 
Just The Intro Paragraph Gave Me Cancer 
Fuck whatever scrawny bearded low test fuck wrote this garbage. 
Shut up you filthy anti-CoD, �old school�-worshipping curmudgeons. 
hilarious article. 
Oh, Healthpacks Aren't The Norm Anymore Because 
Game devs and AAA gamers think they're too complicated? Jesus
And how the guy wrote the 90s FPS era, it seems like he passes this off as an obsolete thing, even though it was pretty much the golden era of PC Gaming, which went on until the mid 2000s.

Because of that, I don't think I'll take his word as SnapMap being as complex as Little Big Planet. Maybe as complex as FPS Creator's, lol. 
That article seems intended at teaching casuals the very basics of good FPS games.

Now, I'm pretty confused by this whole "trading points for upgrades" thing. Are there in-game stores after all? Will the gameplay have some sort of grinding? 
The fact that this guy is speaking as though a doom-like is the second coming of christ goes to show just how insipid and tedious modern fps games have become.

Looking back at doom 4's first incarnation has given me a renewed sense of gratitude, though.

Crossing my fingers for a gothic, medieval, lovecraftian Quake V before 2020. 
If Quake 5 Happen, Let's Hope The Gameplay Comes Close To 1's 
I have way less hope for a Quake V to be good in all aspects, because there's no way to ignore the Q2 and Q4 storyline.

Merging that with the Lovecraftian storyline of Quake would be a mess; either it would weaken the Lovecraftian atmosphere of Quake, or it would stupidfy the sci-fi atmosphere of Q2 & Q4. Or something in the middle.

Making Quake 5 be a sequel to Quake 4 would be a safer bet, in terms of business.

The original Quake storyline would work better if they rebranded it and split it completely from the Q2 & Q4 universe. It would be controversial since Shub-Niggurath's nickname is Quake, but the Q2 & Q4 storyline has already got a stronger establishment under the Quake brand now (more proper games, which are more recent and with a more developed plot).

Giving a fresh brand to the original Quake would allow id to go wild with its fantasy horror theme and develop it properly without catering to the Stroggos' universe audience. 
Let MachineGames Handle It 
Quake V Descent Into Madness 
"since Shub-Niggurath's nickname is Quake"

What's this now? 
Wasn't it chthon's nickname? Honestly it was extremely vague. :P 
This Topic Comes Up A Few Times Each Year 
The "Quake" brand has very obviously discarded Quake 1 and just taken Quake 2 as the starting point.

To be honest it's a good thing because I don't trust a single big developer on this planet to understand the game to the degree that would satisfy anyone on this forum. 
Quake 2 should have been given a different name. Too late now 
It's in Quake's readme, just like the story of almost every other id game:

"[�] an enemy codenamed Quake" 
The only one who can really understand the foundations of the first Quake is Abdul Alhazred. Everyone else goes insane when they try. 
Quake 2 should have been given a different name. Too late now

If that quirk of history has protected our cherished Quake from further rapeage, then it was for the best.

Gentlemen, we have already had dozens up dozens of excellent true Quake sequels. To find them, go to, then go to the "maps" section, and then sort by rating. You bell-lords. 
I actually count Quake's official mission packs as true sequels.

And the custom maps from the community does make me more excited than the announcement of a modern version of Quake would. 
I'm not sure the bell-lord comment was needed but I agree. I guess Quake 2 has protected us from terrible sequels.

How you feeling Kinn? You've been a tad aggressive as of late. 
"[�] an enemy codenamed Quake"

Ah yes, the readme/manual. Forgot about that. 
I'm not sure the bell-lord comment was needed but I agree.

Sorry but I wasn't calling you personally a bell-lord, which is why I prefaced that paragraph with "Gentlemen", to indicate that I just generally calling everyone a bell-lord.

How you feeling Kinn? You've been a tad aggressive as of late.

I can assure you that this is just me being normal. Like most Brits I swear like a sailor at every opportunity, and if an opportunity isn't already available, I make one. 
lol at that guy playing devil's advocate and defending the pinata mechanics. "Guys, it totally makes sense and we have no proof it's going to be as stupid as it looks and sounds!" 
You talking to me?

Not only am I not scared to hold that opinion, notice that I will also post it in my name, instead of hiding behind an anonymous post like a scared kitten. 
The bell-lord comment is always needed :) 
Going Back To That Quake 5 Talk 
I don't think even Bethesda's stupid enough to go back to the Strogg-verse.
It has already been set in stone by modern standarts in Quake 4 and it got lukewarm reception at best. Hell it's the most forgotten modern iD game!
If Quake 4 hadn't happened then yes they would try that today.
Quake V Descent into Madness or bust.
(inb4 Quake 5 is a DLC pack for snapmap) 
Quake 5 
Yes that's an interesting topic. I think they could indeed finally merge the quake/q2 worlds to make sense.

Maybe, it could be like quake is the same universe as as q2, just 1000s of years earlier. Much like Prometheus became a prequel to Alien.

They'd have to have story for it to make sense. Why not time travel? Humans are losing the war against Stroggos, so develop time travel in order to discover some doomsday device from the past that was long lost. Only once they get back there, they find it's just as deadly against the old gods. That'll also explain why it's mostly fantasy settings, but with a little bit of modern base. The modern base levels have been built by modern day man as bases of operation in the past, because finding said doomsday device is something that will take a lot of time.

That way you have both Stroggos in the future portions of the game (maybe 1/4) because we've got to have the Gladiators and obviously the last chapters will be in defeating the Strogg.

But with the majority and middle part of the game being in the old world.

Quake 5 being set entirely in modern bases isn't good enough to stand on it's own anymore. It's been done. They did it for Quake4 and it was probably id's most average game. They can't just repeat that in idtech6, and Rage showed that if they attempt RPG they're going to assreamed.

The other possibility is that they're simply two different galaxies or solar systems but somehow linked... perhaps the power of Shub is something both humans and the Strogg are in a race to capture. Seeing the weaker Quake2 enemies getting ripped to pieces by a Shambler would be pretty awesome. 
Just Make It So The Stroggs Are Part Of Shub-Niggurath's Forces 
Like the humans discovered the Slipgate technology, this somehow attracts the Stroggs, we kick their asses on Earth and we counter-attack on Stroggos.
But for half the game you fight against the Stroggs on Stroggos but after that you discover their true nature and you have to go splipgatin' in lovecraftian dimensions (Better if you're just the latest human alive and the entire counter-attack squadron has been destroyed). 
Fuck it, pretend Quake 2 never happened. I never liked the Strogg anyway. 
Much like Prometheus became a prequel to Alien.

Probably not the best example since, you know, that movie sucks ass.

Wouldn't it be better to have two stylistically distinct IPs? In my mind, it would make sense to leave the tech/alien thing to doom and the gothic/medival stuff with quake. I dunno, it would take excellent writing and execution to pull of the merger of the old and new quake stories.

I like Q2/Q4, but they really are just so bland. 
Have Q2 and Q4 being those massive wars being fought out while Doom is considered an isolated incident? Afterall Quake 2's intro mentionned a colony on Mars, so it pretty much writes itself. 
I think trying to crowbar in the Strogg world into the much more surreal and Lovecraftian Quake world would really dilute the whole thing though.

To be honest, the whole Doom/Quake delineation is a mess and the split probably shouldn't have happened. Quake began life as a totally different game concept but right at the very end everyone threw their hands in the air and said "fuck it this ain't working so let's just keep the maps we've made but replace the gameplay with Doom's gameplay, more or less".

The problem with Doom and Quake as brands, is that at this point in time, there is nothing to separate them in terms of basic game mechanics. They are literally the same concept: you have guns, there are demons. You find keys to open doors. That's pretty much it. Some of the Quakes were better Doom games than Doom 3 was.

I think id would be smart to just focus on the more successful and famous brand - Doom, rather than make another game that's basically like Doom 4 but belongs to a different brand.

Not even id could decide whether they were making a Doom or a Quake with each successive game. Quake 2 had Doom's weapons. It brought back many of Doom's monster behaviours. It had none of the Quake monsters. Doom 3 played nothing like Doom 1/2, but had an ambient spooky creepiness a bit like Quake, and was far, far removed from the fast thrash metal slaughterhouse feeling of Doom 1/2 
There already is a Quake game with time travel, and it's called Daikatana. 
I think "Quake" name is too attached to that storyline mudball that comes from base to runic to strogg. If lovecraftian is the thing, they should start something new and consistent, well designed, and then sell it like "evoking Quake". Descent into lovecraftian madness, paying tribute to Quake, but not being "Quake V". 
German PC Magazine Got Something From ID
They're """""thinking"""" about introducing mod tools to the PC user base.
Goddamnit when you make a new DOOM game, one which comes to PC too, mod tools are a no-brainer goddamnit.

Still, maybe we'll get lucky and get some ACTUAL modding. 
Doom 4 Modding 
Personally I think there should be multiple levels of modding, or at least map making. The console version, which we have now. An intermediary version, like a more complex version of the portal editor, something inbetween the portal editor and trenchbroom. And advanced version just whatever they used to make the game.

Maybe you could make something in the beginner or intermediary version and export it into the full editor and take your map further.

This is how some of the Portal 2 maps are made, it's made in the basic editor and then you import it into Hammer and then detail it out and make it pretty. 

completly custom campaigns and custom stories

Actual translation:

new campaigns and cutscenes 
But That Still Means Stuff Like MegaWADs 
Now we just need the mean to make custom weapons, models, monsters, maps and skins

Linking To A 4chan Image Lol 
No Demons On The Box Art? 
Quake 2 Did Happen And It Was Awesome 
"Fuck it, pretend Quake 2 never happened. I never liked the Strogg anyway." ???

Nah that is Bullshit. I still prefer Q2 over Q1 when it comes to the original games. Quake 2 had more focus and a better realized world compared to Quake 1. This is both good and bad. Good that the game felt more solid but bad in that the mapping scene is more limited to robot aliens where quake 1 you have Fantasy / scifi and demons all in one.

I still go back and play Quake2's singleplayer campaign ever year or so. Quake 1... only the new maps from this community. I just find the original one so random and stuck together. To each his own. 
Doom 4 Box Art 
Not that much different from Fallout 3 and Fallout New Vegas and Dishonored. Why am I not surprised. 
I've seen it before on Twitter but assumed it was Halo box art with the Doom logo on it. 
Box Art 
Hey at least they've progressed from just having a logo on a plain background (*cough* all the quakes *cough*) 
At Least The First Cover Suggested Something Simple But Powerful 
Here it's another case of the cover having a depressed protagonist standing in front of the cover with a gun in hand. Yawn.

They could've made something that goes back to the 90's FPS covers, with the player character facing against a horde of enemies at once (Doom1, Duke Nukem) or something powerful (Doom2). 
I'm assuming that's just fanart trying to pass off as real?

Surely they wouldn't be so unimaginative to just have halo master chef on the cover.

This is the one on wikipedia which is a little better 
"I still prefer Q2 over Q1 when it comes to the original games."

U wot m8? 
Lol At The Q2 Hate 
It's a good game even though quake gameplay is more satisfying and its assets and engine also allow more flexibility (hence this board duh). 
But I Agree 
it's a weird second game in a ssries when it has nothing to do with 1. But so is 3. 
It's official. Trust me. 

That was always my thought, even from the day I first picked up my pre-order from the local game store. I fired it up and ... "What does this have to do with Quake?" 
Not that I didn't enjoy the game at the time, but yeah ... nothing to do, at all, with the first game. 
Q1 Vs Q2 
Eh. Remember that we are by definition that small number of weirdos that really like that brown game with that big lightning monster in, what's he called...

Off the shelf, there ain't much in it. Normal people like both, Q2 usually a bit more because the weapons are beefier and on the surface the game overall seems more impressive.

But Q1 has better legs imo, which you only see after years have passed, and it has a much more appealing and interesting theme, which really comes into its own with the custom maps/mods. 
I love Quake and Quake 2 for different reasons. Quake 2 has a lovely visual design consistency and theming but it doesn't have the staying power of Quake. I think this is due to the abstract nature of Quakes design, we're still getting new texture sets, themes and monsters.
Quake 2 maps are simply more of the same, they're all base maps. 
Yep, that about nails it. Quake2 is chunky base maps with the occasional mountain/mine environment thrown in. And the lighting is orange/blue.

Quake1 is ... well, whatever you want it to be. 
Q2 Has Inferior Game Play 
Otherwise there'd be an active Q2 community of mappers, modders and players and the Q1 Community would be practically non existent. 
I agree. I mean, FFS, it supported DLLs for mods. You could do, basically, anything you wanted. 
Isn't it just a matter of sitting and making different art style for Q2, if you like it?

My complain about Q2 was that Q1 weapons felt more satisfying, specially over that laggy RL. Also those toned down noises and modelled explosions and washed, too bright looks. 
Nothing wrong with Q2's gameplay. They do have an active community of mappers over at Q2Cafe. It's mostly Multiplayer though.
The singleplayer scene is effectively dead and I think it's due to the lack of theme diversity. 
Doom 4's Cover 
The Revenant cover was sick, they should've used it.
Also Quake 2 is boring and slow. 
*computer updated*
*computer updated*
*computer updated*
*computer updated*
Awesomest thing about Quake2 is CoopOrDie!
Wish Quake 1 had that. 
The Last Q2 Map Pack 
by musashi was great. 
Box Art 
Please no. 
Q2 Vs Q1 
Well not to hijack this thread any further haha... But I was trying to make a point and failing I guess.

Quake2 focused theme that is more solid for a game.
Quake1 all manner of randomness.

But that is why I agree Q1 lasted longer. It could be more in the long run as it takes little effort to make a haunted cemetery or castle map or even a scifi base map using the default content.

Quake 2... yea base maps if you stick to the default content. I would not dog the lighting style thought because nothing stops folks from doing stylish lighting exactly like we are doing now in Q1 with colored lights. And the same can be said for the levels if more texture sets got made.

But that just did not happen because of the above reasons. Even though you could use KMquake which has the Lazarus mod built in expanding on Q2 in so many ways beyond what has been done in Q1.

For me TB1 revived my interest in Quake. And the new toolset is great for map making especially when using Arcane Dimensions new additions. Plus you guys have made some fantastic maps. I just wonder what the Quake 2 equivalent would be.

I do hope Trenchbroom 2 gives it another chance in that regard. But I digress in the doom 4 thread hehe. 
Redone Imps! 
GOOD and now they have eyes not just skulls without eyesockets and a monster that looks more like a proper hellknight. 
I'm really holding out for decent singleplayer. I couldn't give a shit about MP since I never played the originals in MP anyway. 
I'm optimistic again ... just still not 100% sold on the cinematic kills. But it feels nice.

But was that gameplay or a cut scene? Everything seemed to happen with such perfect timing I have to think it was scripted. 
For Skacky 
Ok I love the new Imp design, the Pinky and the Baron at the end. Notice they also have colour (gasp!) on them.

It's almost as if someone sat down and played the original Doom, sometime after all those boring, samey, greyscale, eyeless bellend-head monsters were made, and said "haaaang on....why don't we just make monsters with eyes and personality and that actually look different from each other, kinda like in the original game?"

I hope that guy got a raise. 
The HD Version Of Brutal Doom Looks Neat 
Not really. 
Woah There, That Chaingun Upgrade 
Looks a bit more interesting but I'm not in yet as long as PC modding isn't integrated.

Spotted a shielded grunt in the shotgun portion, I'm curious how he will work.

Pinky looks legit though, just like the Baron of Hell. 
It All Looks So Shiny These Days 
even the rocks look like the were being dragged through vaseline. Strange choice.

That brutal stuff.. meh. Kids will love it i guess.
Don't know what to think of it. 
Unpopular Opinion 
I like the box art.

Come at me bros! 
Daz Ur Such A Bellend. 
But regardless, new trailer looks cool, apart from takedown moves. Also Q2 was great HTH. 
Quake 2 is actually nothing like Doom or Quake. I always thought it was a major screw up to not come up with a new name.

Quake is unique in many ways and was a groundbreaking game, but Quake 2 was better as far as being a coherent game experience. 
Quake 2 is actually nothing like Doom or Quake

It's exactly like Doom or Quake.

id have just been making different flavours of the same basic idea since Wolfenstein. They tried to do some other stuff in Rage maybe. 
Doom Trailer 
The new trailer gives a much better impression than anything else they've released. Color, larger hordes, higher tempo, more unique creature designs. I dig it. Glad they aren't waiting till 6/6/16 to release it :P

That box art, though. /facepalm

I'm excited. 
Glad they aren't waiting till 6/6/16 to release it

It is a Friday the 13th though, which is just about perfect. 
*twilight Zone Music* 
Official Cover Reveal 
Slightly Annoyed 
check out the keyed doors around 0:56 of the trailer.

this is from a project i'm working on.

killpixel, is that quake or some new engine? 
it's dp

IGN guys analyse new trailer pretty thoroughly.

Gibs or jibs drama included. 
"Gibs or jibs drama included"

#1180 I think it's "register updated". 
Uh. Exciting. 
Gameplay looks a bit Serious Sam 3, which is a, uh... good thing, I suppose.
Monster design improved, and it's a good thing they went the more colored path, albeit lazily.
Looks like they just took the original models and dumped them in vaseline...
I loved the "eyeless bellend" design of DOOM 3, looked fittingly mean, IMO and they stretched out a little(very little) in monsters variety (cherubs).
Frantic fight seems to be there, I just hope they manage to give the overall progression the sense of epic accomplishment original FPS had. Now that would be exciting.

But thing looking like they do, starting from the cover art choice, point in a boring direction. 
Well we can sure say we have come a long way from D3 thank god.

I can't help but cackle in glee despite gripes :D 
Some Alpha Gameplay Footage 
Get it while it's still up - 
Is it me, or does the announcer sound bored?

"*sigh* First blood..." 
The announcer should be amped up like the one from UT. I was honestly bored and depressed when I played the alpha. 
At 2:43 you can really see how the player movement is so slow that you can't even dodge the sights of someone using a console controller. 

They did the same thing in QUake3. For whatever reason, id feels that the announcer should be flat monotone ... I don't know why. 
Even the Quake 3 announcer has more personality than the Doom 4 one... 
The Quake Live one does not. I think it's the same guy even? 
guess they want a more serious vibe, maybe they felt past styles were too cheesy? kinda odd choice for muliplayer.

QuakeX announcer comparisions 
"Quake 2 is actually nothing like Doom or Quake"

It's exactly like Doom or Quake.

As far as game mechanics are considered, yes they are the same... Player character kills enemies while progressing through various levels.

However, the locations and the enemy types are completely different in each game. Which, in my opinion, was reason enough to come up with a different name, but they didn't. 
Remember the build up to Quake 2 and all the press about how the monsters would duck under incoming rockets?

Some definitely did? 
My Major Complain About Quake 2 
is how the overall movement feel a lot more stiff than Quake 1, or Doom for that matter, which is a major stepdown to what we got in Q1.

Also the smaller hitboxes for monsters with the still minuscule ones for the projectiles, making enemies harder to hit with rockets and blasters.

Also fuck the Blaster, piece of shit is the worst starting weapon in any FPSes. At least Doom's pistol was hitscan. 
Q2 Blaster 
was nice. my favourite flashlight. 
OTP - Some did. All that meant was it happened once and then players learned to aim low. 
The Enforcer played a duck animation, but his box didn't change.

Lazarus had enemies jump over incoming rockets, run from grenades on the floor and so on. It was an awesome toolkit. 
Gunners Did Ducking Too 
as for new d4 footage, probably just me but still looks underwhelming IMHO. That was clearly scripted and even then we barely got any 3d gameplay. 
#1185 Holy Fuck! 
That's the first trailer that made me really excited!

I wish my computers could run this beast (my 9500GT struggles with MK9�). These new designs are awesome! 
Snippets Of The Campaign 
All Of That For Just 20 Seconds Of Gameplay 
Wish It Had More Gameplay 
Seems mancubus have an aoe like the spitter from l4d2. You can see Marty Stratton observing from the shadows in the back left corner. 
Doom 4 Mods - Wanted List 
I can see the first tutorials/mods for disabling the takedown/scripted kills...they slow down the gameplay and take control from the player.

The second mod would be to remove/reduce the glossiness of enemies and other objects. Too much modern shine-o-vision as of late. Shiny doesn't mean good and everything looks wet.

Ok maybe the 2nd mod would be to increase player movement speed.

Then would be the gutsavers mod to turn down the gore. Of course removing takedowns alone would cut down on the gore.

Next we would need an AI mod to make the enemies dumber and run straight at the player.

Then we might need a mod for rockets to detect if an enemy is within a certain radius of the rocket and cause the rocket to explode in order to mimic a larger bounding box.

Next we will see a centerpoint mod to bring all weapons to the center of the viewport.

Then someone will hack in gl_texturemode gl_nearest and all hell will break loose. 
For Weapons Centerpoint 
That'll be hard considering the standarts in terms of viewmodel modelling is to just model the only visible side, which is a shame. That'll require some reworks but if the worldmodels have as much polygons/texture the same size as the view one that would work.

Also have a way to make the viewmodels a bit smaller, make the chainsaw just like the one in D3 (it was a beast) and have the fists be its own weapon slot (they could be berserk fists anyway, close range attacks are a risk). 
Why Downgrade It? 
At that point I would just wait till Gibhard comes out... so we can mod that to be a doom game. 
Why Downgrade It?

A lot of people with Aspergers will get upset when the new Doom game differs from the old games in ways such as "has modern graphics" and "isn't exactly the same as Doom 1/2" 
I can see the first tutorials/mods for disabling the takedown/scripted kills...they slow down the gameplay and take control from the player.

I'm still amazed at what part of "glory kills are optional and if you don't want them just don't do them" people are failing to understand. 
Depends On How Optional They Are 
Optional as in "you can turn them off in the options" or as in "you can still kill monsters with guns, the takedowns are just another way"? 
of course you can still monsters with guns, you guys 
They've already stated that you need to use the special moves to get the monster pinatas to drop the most loot so ... they aren't REALLY optional. 
Special Moves 
I hope this isn't a "controller optimized" game where the special moves require tricky multiple button presses/combos that are difficult to do on a keyboard. But I bet it is. 
Special Needs. 
I guess it would be nice if they can be disabled full stop in the settings?? 
There's Been Some Leaks

Some of these are (check the full thread for more):
>Archvile confirmed
>Spider Mastermind confirmed
>Automap confirmed
>Shitton of menus
>Game tracks kills/secrets
>Game functions in chapters, like DOOM 1
>There's 5 chapters total
>New Demon types
>"Aqua Marines, and Hell Marines"???
>Mutators for custom multiplayer matches
>One of these mutators allows Strafe Jumping

And check page 3 for weapons showcase, and another webm where the player moves around and it seems to go faster than previous previews.

Now I'll just wait for when the game'll be released. 
>Cyberdemons (the standard and a "Hell" variant?)

I wonder if the "standard" one is from Doom 3 or from Doom II.

The hysterical, smooth-moving savage cyberdemon we've seen so far is likely the "Hell" version.

I miss the slow-paced, stern, cold-blooded classic cyberdemon that walks and moves like a heavy machinery robot. Its Doom 64 version was bigger but still totally faithful to the character.

However, I also like the Robocop2-ish Doom 3 ROE version with its computer screen face. 
The Cyberdemon in Doom 1 and 2 is anything but slow-paced. It's one of the fastest monsters in the game with the Archvile. 
It's got to be the laziest cover in quite some time. 
Cover art is decided by the publisher right? Not the developers so I don't see why id should be taking the heat for it. 
Usually the publisher has their in house artists do the cover and promotional stuff based on developer assets, and they're usually laughably incompetent in comparison, but the publisher execs can't tell the difference.

The dev execs can though, and usually complain and reject the first handful of covers / icons / banners etc.

I doubt that a developer as prestigious as id didn't have a say here, even if it was just to challenge the low quality.

Maybe it got past just because of how unimportant covers actually are in this day and age. I suspect that it'll be replaced as well.

A random screenshot from the demo video with the original DOOM logo in front of it would look better. 
They should have re-created the original Doom cover but using the actual game renderer and assets. 
Exactly. The generic space marine on the cover is ... a questionable choice, at best. 
The dev execs can though, and usually complain and reject the first handful of covers / icons / banners etc.

Maybe they're too overworked with the game itself. 
It's up to the art director to make sure things like marketing materials and cover art and screenshots are all what they want to see.

Busy or not, the cover is the first thing a lot of people will see of your game. It requires a decent amount of thought and planning. 
... ?? 
I am not sure whether this is good or bad, but what I am sure is that the cover generates to my mind a kind of remarkable reminder of the former Doom cover (I am talking about the 90's Doom cover) in which the Marine was the central character...
... so maybe this was the desired effect. And honestly, being lazy in this case is not a argument against the game itself... it is sometimes more efficient to be lazy than failing with awesome trailers/covers/whatever that make the buyer thinking they'll have a jewel and that ultimately they acquired shit (example: Final Fantasy trailer vs ingame came to my mind at first...) 
Well, the art director getting a proper cover ready doesn't impede the team from making an awesome game. He's spending time doing that while the gameplay team is tuning shotgun damage and enemy AI. 
... That Was Not Exactely What I Have Been Saying 
... and you are extrapolating too much so far ;)

Bad cover does not mean bad game, and it does not mean good game either. Same applies to good cover, which does not mean good or bad game...
You can even have mean cover with mean/bad/good game... etc... we are discussing about a "50 shades"-like of goodness/badness relation in between things that are purely subjective. 
Of course it doesn't. But marketing matters. 
... From My Perspective... 
... and regarding my professional experience... marketing sucks... 
I think the main problem is that this new Doomguy design is too generic. Had they used one of those updated classic enemies like the revenant or the baron of hell instead, the reaction would've been more positive.

The problem isn't the cover, it's the new Doomguy design. But I don't care much about that since he won't be very visible in the game. 
Cover Is Terrible And Boring And Doesn't Capture DOOM. 
Not that it really matters but I agree. New Revenant would have been cool as he looks pretty fucking rad. 
Doom Logo 
Upon seeing the teaser trailer I was genuinely excited about the new logo reveal. In that trailer the logo is in darkness and is totally black, but it had rim lighting, so it was 3D. I thought that was a great tease. The reveal, however, was very disappointing. It is literally the closest it could be to plain text without actually being plain text.

The original is a very interesting and iconic logo: vivid complimentary colors and contrasting textures and patterns that tie directly into the theme of the game. It felt like an object, an ominous sign floating in space. The logo is evocative and achieved all this very elegantly, I feel most people would have made a busy mess.

That being said, I don't think this escaped the minds of the people at zenimax and id. Frankly, the people who care about the doom logo or cover art are not their target demographic. As bland and boring and, to some people, insulting as the new logo and cover art is, it is recognizable. It's recognizable as a video game, as a game with guns, a game you can buy your son/grandson. Consumers are busy, distracted people bombarded with logos and packaging every single second. It could be argued that a re-imagined classic logo and cover art could simply be too noisy/busy/detailed and render it unrecognizable to the general consumer. 
I've heard this argument before... it always seems a justification for blandness rather than a reason to do something cool.

The lettering of the original was kind of busy with those tech details, but it also had a guy stood on top of a mound of struggling demons shooting them.

That's a pretty striking image (no comments on the quality). 
It's marketing people who get final say on this. That's where the buck stops, not with the devs. If marketing says the font has to be plain white to stand out for dumb people in a shop window, then that's what they go for. Also, focus tests have shown people respond better to images of space marines holding guns and not demons so again that's what we get etc etc. 
I Agree 
I think they made the wrong decision. I think they could have done something very cool and ultimately iconic if they wanted to.

However, I can see how that argument would be compelling to a board of directors who want a return on the $XX,XXX,XXX they just dumped into a game. 
"Also, focus tests have shown people respond better to images of space marines holding guns and not demons so again that's what we get etc etc."

Annnnnd we're back to being skeptical about the game. If focus groups are driving box art and marketing campaigns, it's not a stretch to think they're also driving game design ... in which case, rekt. 
Focus Groups 
Are like Design Committees, but with even fewer designers involved. 
Maybe it's a planned decision for it to replicate Halo in order to pull those fans in, subconsciously.

You take Halo 2 shit brown background here

then add Halo1 chef hovering over the logo

And you got the doom4 cover. The armour is even the same with the big spikey thing on his left shoulder that isn't on the right. 
bad cover is highly suspicious. It clearly depicts what the developer priorities are.

In an ideal world, a new doom game would be a game made by a legendary and famous studio who already did more than enough money and so they can just release what the fuck they want. So you have a chance of actually having something fun and interesting. Instead, iD fucked up in the past and now I fear they will be playing as safe as possible. (It still irks me that the marine has to use a powersuit to do the impossible. To me the doom marine has to be an implausible and impossible hero, not a regular guy in a robot suit. but this is a very minor nit pick)

just played a bunch of doom wads and mods. I'm highly skeptical iD will be able to release something as fun and cool to play. I will still give this game the benefit of the doubt, but I wish at least the pinata effect can be switched off.

Also, I don't give a shit about takedowns as insta-kill moves, in the sense that even I find a certain degree of purism absolutely retarded. What I think absolutely put the balance at risk are the invicibility frames and the pinata effect (if they have enemies being pinatas, you can be pretty damn well sure they balanced the game around that so screw careful pick up placement and balance, they will still be around but it's not the same thing)

some of the leaked stuff seems encouraging and I have to say the weapons sound RIGHT 
If focus groups are driving box art and marketing campaigns, it's not a stretch to think they're also driving game design

I wouldn't go that far. By the way, there's nothing new about any of this. This is how it's always been done - Marketing/Publishing generally control the posters/adverts/trailers/box art/massive cardboard cutouts of the player character that you see in stores etc. 
bad cover is highly suspicious. It clearly depicts what the developer priorities are.

No, again, and I can't stress this enough - The developer doesn't do the box art - that is always done by the publishers/marketing. 
Didn't mean to make it sound like they didn't - why I mentioned the publisher's marketing team having their own artists do the commercial stuff.

The developers can and do push back when its really bad though.

Although, comparing the images Kona posted and the doom cover, I think he's exactly right.

And most probably when iD pushed back on this cover, the marketing people pointed at these two covers to prove how superior the new Doom one was - argument done. 
I see what you mean about the Halo covers, and yeah it's plausible that they are thinking about marketing this as a gorier/edgier Halo, to try to pull in that (huge) crowd. 
And most probably when iD pushed back on this cover, the marketing people pointed at these two covers to prove how superior the new Doom one was - argument done.

The halo games are better than doom in general, so it really is a good move to mimic them as much as possible. 
The halo games are better than doom in general

Gonna catch some shit for this but....


Bring it on, bisnitches. 
But Marmite is better than peanut butter.

Not sure where Nutella comes in.

Think it depends on how hot or cold a day it is. 
it's pretty clear to me that they are downplaying the sci-fi and demons aspect, and emphasizing the "soldier dude with gun" aspect, because they think it has more mainstream appeal. 
Lot's of people judging the book by its cover 
Amen to that. But sometimes, people nitpick just for the fun of it.

It's fun to try to theorize and understand these other aspects of game development & publishing. 
Nutella Is Above. 
"And, as he earlier promised to show us, he�s flick-switching � id�s in-house term for the instinctual and nearly instantaneous swapping of weapons that players can pull off once they learn their way around the weapon wheel. A quick tap, a quick flick� and the weapon wheel never even appears. �It makes you feel super slick when you�re doing it,� Martin smiles. �You�re just flick-switching between weapons and you�re like�� Martin pauses to make some rapid-fire pew-pew-pew sound effects. We get the point."

What the shitballs??? They mean exactly what any cunting FPS was doing in the 1990s with weapons on 1-9 or an instantaneous next weapon button?? Before the stupid weapon wheel selection crap shat on that?? Wanktards!! 
Reading that made my meh-o-meter overload and I had to take it out and plug it in to recharge.

Stinks of "as designed by focus group as the fucking box art", albeit that focus group has been well briefed that a main focus is "let's make sure we avoid all the slow-pace criticisms of D3 at any cost"...seems very much like they're trying to design a game to run away from criticism rather than positively aiming for a clear design goal.

That being said, I predict here and now that it will be a good - but not great - game in it's own right. It will tick enough focus group boxes, but with adequate, cursory ticks rather than massive excited strokes. 
I expect to be able to cycle through with the number keys... anything else would be stupidity. 
I expect to be able to cycle through with the number keys... anything else would be stupidity.

I think id will leave this for pc users as the did with rage. 
Calm your tits, it's obviously being played on a console that doesn't have 1-9 number keys.

On a PC i'm sure you'll be able to press a number key and go straight to your weapon of choice. 
This weapon selection system sounds pretty much like the Turok 2 weapon system, which was really good (despite the actual faults of that game).

Quickly hold a button, push a direction, release � direct switch without cycling.

I somewhat agree with Shambler. The game sounds like it will lack the level of exploration of the classics, The cyberdemon and the doomguy's designs are off, there may be some clunkiness in the new mechanics, but the rest of the art and the combat may be really fun. 
I know that. The Dpad or thumbutton or wtf he mentioned later gave it away. It's just a ridiculous thing to be hyping up in an article. 
Companies love to hype stuff that already exists. It was like when Halo was touting their amazing 'man cannons' in some hype video ... this was after Quake 3 had already shipped and introduced jump pads to the world. And their fan base ate it up. 
I think the doom trailers are more promising than meh, but then I read shit like this:

"�The push-forward style of our combat rewards players for being aggressive and not backing down from a challenge,� Sokal adds. �If you are low on health, charge into the maw and blow a demon in half to get a nice chunk of your health back. Low on ammo? Pull out the Chainsaw and cut a demon apart to get a huge ammo refill. For me, these moments are some of the most satisfying in the game.�"

(end quote=

ie basically let's give the main character health and ammo regeneration by attacking enemy. This is shoddy design in my opinion that removes skill and fun completely out of the equation. It's just a "press a button" to win, instead of waiting for a few seconds for your health to regenrate you just attack enemies to have health and ammo refill.

Having the option to remove this crap from the game changes nothing because it is obvious the whole item economy was designed behind this. First mod we'll need is a rebalance of the game with items around the level and no ammo and health regeneration 
That depends a lot on how balanced the implementation was.

Enemies already dropped ammo, but in low amounts. If the soldiers dropped packs of 50 bullets, that would be completely stupid and it would have ruined classic Doom in the same way you're describing.

Ideally, enemies shouldn't drop more ammo than what's needed to kill them, I guess. That's probably why the ogres are so well balanced in Quake � grunts are far easier, because you can waste 3 shells, spend another 2 and get all 5 back when they die.

In the case of health, a fair compromise may be for them to not drop more health than a single weak attack of them can take. If classic Doom had a monster that dropped one of those 2-points blue potion when it died, that wouldn't be unfair. Sure, you'd get a lot of health when you killed a cyberdemon, but if the cyberdemon had hit you at least twice, you would've still lost a lot. 
one thing is having an enemy drop a modest amount of the ammo it is using, one thing is- I quote:

"�If you are low on health, charge into the maw and blow a demon in half to get a nice chunk of your health back. Low on ammo? Pull out the Chainsaw and cut a demon apart to get a huge ammo refill. "

nice chunk of health and huge ammo refill for attacking an enemy. This seems to me like a mechanic on the same level of health regeneration + ammo regeneration. Instead of waiting a few seconds behind cover to get your health back you can simply rush towards your enemy to get health and ammo back.

I'm really pessimistic about the possibility of implementing this without making the gameplay completely trivial. I hope this shit is not present in the ultra violence difficulty level. 
so one mod I would expect is just to take the standard levels and place items around (with a difficulty modifier) and completely remove these shitty (at least they sound shitty) health and ammo regeneration mechanics. Take downs have to stay, but remove the pretty stupid pinata effect and invincibility frames

on art style: I think the game looks promising but the zergesque design is offputting, the worst offender seems to be the cyberdemon 
And since you can't mod anything outside of what you can do in SnapMap.... 
I have to wonder why folks are so hell bent on not accepting any new gameplay mechanic even before trying it out... so much for trying new things. This game is doom by name only. So either just give it a pass and go play something else so buy it and give this new game a go. As for a mod that has items in the level all of a sudden... that's not very realistic because you would have to either hack the maps or at least go in and redo the item placement for each level. So I would not expect that to be very feasible. 
So the game would be better with regenerating health?

You wouldn't understand game design if it bit you. 
Yeah people losing their jimmies over a game mechanic based on cynical assumptions of how it's gonna play out is just typical internet hipster sad-sackery. I have played dozens of games in my time where monsters drop extra goodies if you kill them in a certain way and on all occasions I remembering it being a fun mechanic. 
Citation needed. 
Gameplay That Rewards Aggressive Combat With Health/ammo/boosts... 
...has always worked for me, not that it gets implemented much. There was a couple of action games that did it a few years ago and it was good fun and an encouraging mechanic. Painkiller also did it with the souls for demon mode. Generally rewarding killing with, errr, stuff seems okay to me. 
It wouldn't take a lot of work for it to make sense. In Blood you gunned down enemies and they had a chance of dropping "life force" which is basically a heart that restored health...

I think the problem that most gamers have is that instead of enemies dropping items with context they drop windows icons. 
people forget that hl2 did this? if you were low on health, you had a good chance of a soldier dropping those small health kits. if you were low on ammo, you were more likely to get bullets. and this mechanic was present in the crates as well. some crate items were hard coded, but others were generated at runtime based on player stats.

descent 1/2 also did this with the energy and shield powerups being more likely depending on which one you needed more. this is not a new mechanic by any means... 
It's Too Soon To Tell 
But I'm skeptical it will improve gameplay. I feel that eliminating a threat AND gaining a considerable amount of health may be too big of a payoff and may cheapen the experience.

I think Blood is different in that the enemies are particularity challenging and the chance of dropping health is fairly low.

Also, item pickups add a layer of strategy. You can create a risk/reward scenario with item placement. Having health drops just seems kinda one dimensional.

I dunno. I'm eager to play the game, just wish it would release already! 
I think the problem that most gamers have is that instead of enemies dropping items with context they drop windows icons.

I think the problem that most gamers have is that it's diiiiiifffffferrrreennnnntttttttt
Citation needed.

Oh come on, you should know that tons of hack 'n' slash games do it (God of War anyone?) and there are all manner of RPGs that have skills and spells you can invoke to turn an enemy kill into a bar refill.

mh is right - people are losing their shit over this bascially because it's different and I'm amazed no-one has brought the idea that there could be a real risk/reward element to this, because charging right up to a mob of enemies to melee them in the face often puts you in a real shitty position depending on what the hell else is going on around you. 
Plenty Of Games Do It 
it's all about the implementation.

But yeah maybe ID needs to keep a clamp on the marketing BS about it being an innovative feature. 
Would A Post Filter Be The Death Of Func..? 
"people are losing their shit over this bascially because it's different"
Different to...Doom1&2 ?
I don't see anyone complaining about that.
I do see and have made complaint of the mechanic being a thinly disguised regenerating health / health on demand mechanic.
If only it were different to that trite shit mechanic...

#1305 "no-one has brought the idea that there could be a real risk/reward element to this..."

Nope, no chance of byuing that idea indeed : the player moves super flying ninja skateboard fast and you are invuln during the executions, so it is basically pick your pinata wherever in sight, dash faster than anything else around, and feast.

And what betrays the intent behind this mechanic for me is another feature in the same vein we of making the gameplay trite and safe for today's bratty players : the clear room panic button aka the Big Floppydick Gun. 
The brill part of the original BFG is it is expensive to fire and there is a very good chance that you misuse it and basically blast 2/3rds of your Plasma ammo taking out one miserable Imp if anaything at all.

But use it well, heh, shall we say with (ohmygodcanitbeyesitcan) skill and its a good payoff.

Great power but some skill demanded to wield it correctly.

I dont think Doom4 is following this idea.
It sure looks like a fun ride but these things definitely are making it look more like a fun ride than a fun challenge.

As so many games now, basically little more than interactive action rides. Really Disney amusement park level stuff.
...and this whole mass of todays gamers who cant get enough of this kind of shit...blergh.

I think this is what is irking people here. The pretense of being given a real Doom but instead being served up some more of this fun on rails trite shit. 
Looks like we wont be able to mod it out but at the very least I guess we can unbind the keys for BFG and executions. 
Or Just Chop Off Your Right Thumb And Middle Finger 
...or just don't press the keys while playing the game. Seriously. You're over-dramatizing this. 
Invalid, IMO. If the game design is based around the user pressing those keys, then not pressing them isn't really an option. Unless you want some sort of iron man challenge... 
I've seen countless kids that presses nothing but the quick punch and quick kick in Street Fighter games. The same kind of kids that never learns that they can block while crouching. 
Yeah It Was A Jest... 
Here's A Wild And Wacky Idea 
If the game seems to easy to you because game mechanic x exists, then turn the difficulty level up.

If you are playing on the highest difficulty and the game still seems too easy, then come back and let us know. 
That worked perfectly in Shadow Warrior 2013� except for the boss levels. I couldn't beat any bosses in the harder difficulties, so I had to restart the whole game in an easier skill� which allowed me to beat the bosses, at the expense of making everything else in the game boring. Which is a shame, because the regular battles are really fun in the hardest setting. 
Invalid, IMO. If the game design is based around the user pressing those keys, then not pressing them isn't really an option. Unless you want some sort of iron man challenge...

Here's the deal.

A lot of people who are complaining - here and elsewhere - about the glory kills are doing so on the assumption that a glory kill is mandatory for each and every kill, and that you absolutely do not have the choice to opt out of them.

That's why we see comments along the lines of there only being one or two animations and that will quickly get boring, or having to do them will slow down gameplay, and so on.

None of that is the case at all.

It's true that a certain amount of game play is based around them, and it's true that they're heavily emphasised in the demos we've been shown, but does it not occur to people that this might be because id are just showing off their new mechanic?

Even in the demos we've seen to date, it's obvious that the player isn't constantly glory killing all the time. So where does the idea that the player is constantly doing so come from?

There's a middle point here, in between "constantly glory killing all the time" and "not glory killing at all", that people are just totally ignoring.

It's like back when id released Rage, and there was big hoo-hah about the racing elements. Turned out that only two races were actually mandatory in the entire game.

So howsabout we start out from the premise that glory kills aren't mandatory, that they're something you can opt in to if you need or want to, but otherwise can quite happily ignore, and build up a case against them from there. Because otherwise you're just undermining yourself and looking quite silly as a result. 
I Dunno 
It makes it easy to choose which posts to disregard. 
Ok, It Looks Like This Discussion Has Derailed Slightly 
This is my attempt to clarify my thoughts.

Here is Stratton and co. discussing glory kills. It is clear that the use of this mechanic is not mandatory, but is strongly encouraged and reinforced though the games design. If we review the E3 gameplay footage we will see that health comes exclusively from enemy drops. There are no health pickups to be found throughout the levels.

Before panties get twisted let me say this: I believe this game will be fun. However, I have concerns that it won't be challenging enough due to health on demand.

It appears, from what we've seen, that glory kills are easy enough to execute that they could be exploited to keep ones health topped off. If it turns out that this is the case, this virtually eliminates the threat of death and lessens the overall challenge of the game. Some people feel that games that are not challenging enough are not as fun or rewarding as more challenging games. This is a valid opinion.

As I said earlier, it's too soon to tell. 
There Are Regular Health Pickups In The Levels Though. 
Are There? 
That's good news if that's the case. Do you have a source you can link me? 
Do you have a source you can link me?

czg is the source 
Why is this so shit?

Is It The Font? 
It's the font, isn't it 
If we review the E3 gameplay footage we will see that health comes exclusively from enemy drops. There are no health pickups to be found throughout the levels.

While I don't recall seeing health on the E3 footage, there were definitely regular armour and ammo pickups; since glory kills are also being touted as a means of topping up ammo, then it does seem that it's possible for glory kills and regular pickups to coexist - at least so far as ammo is concerned.

IMO it's quite a leap from "there were no health pickups in the footage shown" to "there are no health pickups at all": absence of evidence not being evidence of absence, and all that.

Another interesting thing I noted in the E3 footage is that not all glory kills trigger pickups - in fact the very first one you see seems not to. If so, that kinda negates the "health on-demand" aspect of them. 
No, it's giving an awesome demon "MILITARY EXPERIMENT #666" for a background. Why couldn't they just put Doom 2's flavor paragraph there instead? 
Apparently when a demon dies, they pick him up, dust him off, wire him some combat gear, and send him back into battle. No rest for the wicked, eh? You wish your missiles did what his can do.


Fuck I'll never even have the time to play this game and it's turned me into that one shmorky *spits over shoulder* comic. 
Cool New Unreleased Screenshot Expclusive 
Or Just Chop Off Your Right Thumb And Middle Finger 
Because FFS you can't be trusted to type with them, Killes and anyone else who is opining straight out of their clueless colons.

Nope, no chance of byuing that idea indeed : the player moves super flying ninja skateboard fast and you are invuln during the executions, so it is basically pick your pinata wherever in sight, dash faster than anything else around, and feast.

1. Isn't everyone moaning that the player moves too slow??

2. You might well be invulnerable during the executions but you might well then be surrounded by enemies and have given up and tactical advantage of your previous position.

3. Wtf is wrong with people not getting the mechanic of rewarding aggression?? WE've told you it's already worked well in games (even if I forget which ones), and no-one wants to give a convincing argument against the theory, let alone wait to see it in practise. You DOMES. 
You might well be invulnerable during the executions but you might well then be surrounded by enemies and have given up and tactical advantage of your previous position.


Oh, and when the execution move is finished and you're no longer invulnerable - you're still surrounded. 
They're Here 
IMO it's quite a leap from "there were no health pickups in the footage shown" to "there are no health pickups at all": absence of evidence not being evidence of absence, and all that.

I agree, this is why I've also been saying "it's too soon to tell". But, in light of the information we do have, I don't think my concern is unreasonable. Yes, it's conjecture, but this is a discussion about a game that has yet to be released so a majority of the discussion is just that anyway.

Another interesting thing I noted in the E3 footage is that not all glory kills trigger pickups - in fact the very first one you see seems not to. If so, that kinda negates the "health on-demand" aspect of them.

Yes, that is interesting. Possibly there wasn't a drop since the player was at 100? Anyway, I hope you're right. Any evidence that nullifies the health on demand theory is more than welcome in my book. 
Yes, that is interesting. Possibly there wasn't a drop since the player was at 100? Anyway, I hope you're right. Any evidence that nullifies the health on demand theory is more than welcome in my book.

I'm almso certain I'm right; I just rewatched and the third glory kill, which is the firsr of them with a drop, is just an ammo drop. No health from that one.

Watch from here: 
Indeed, it looks like you're right. This is good, if health drops aren't a guarantee they can't be easily exploited. 
Seems slow...every kill is scripted it would seem. I want to spin in circles cutting everything around me, not hop from one scripted cutting sequence to the next. Also, the blood seems hard to see except for when up close. It's the same as though it's the new blood in the darkplaces engine, but glossier. 
Good to hear if its not guaranteed health drops.

But just to sqaure this with Shamb & mh - you guys having a laff right as to Tactical advantage / surrounded tradeoff ? Let me illustrate :
"Oh no I am surrounded and getting damaged now I pinata'd the fuck out of this imp....what do I do what do I do ?? OH I KNOW! -> PINATA AGAIN!!!!" >:D

To be clear - I love the speed and the idea of rewarding aggression. Rewards could be other than health and ammo though. 
Scratch That - The Goresplosion Is Reward Enough For Me :) 
"PINATA AGAIN!!!!" >:D" 
You can't do this though, you've got to damage an enemy enough first so it goes into its stunned state. That's the only time you can do the glory kills.

On the other hand, with lesser enemies like zombies and imps, it is actually possible (and really satisfying and fun) to to go on a complete rampage in a crowd alternating shotgun blasts with executions.
That tactic falls apart if there is any open space for imps to run away though, or if there are larger monsters, but it's very satisfying if you can keep it going. 
What Czg Said 
To be honest, I've no idea where this notion that it's something you can just summon at will is coming from.

To summarize the mechanic:

You've got to wound an enemy sufficiently for it to be available.

You're not always guaranteed health (or anything at all, for that matter).

While you may be invulnerable while doing it, you're certainly not once done so you need to be careful about timing and placement.

Based on that it should be quite obvious that when you do manage to pull it off properly, when it works, it can be quite a reward, but there's often going to be other times when just sending in a few rockets is going to be the preferable approach.

As a mechanic it doesn't seem broken, or dumbed-down, or pandering to console kiddies, or any of those things.

IMO there are valid criticisms in that it's a very gamist mechanic, it breaks the fourth wall, it can affect one's sense of immersion in the game. There's a more interesting discussion to be had along those lines rather than trying to nitpick at the mechanics of it, methinks. 
"You've got to wound an enemy sufficiently for it to be available."

SO ... in a fast based, twitch shooter I need to be careful to hurt enemies - not too much, just enough - in an arena with bullets and rockets and explosions going off - in a game known for it's in-fighting and collateral damage - to put them into a stunned state so I can then close the gap and perform a fatality. To get extra health.

I'd Never Thought Of That! 
I'm trolling, a little ... but in seriousness, that doesn't sound like a system that belongs in a Doom game.

Just call it something else so we can all move on. Stop writing "DOOM" on game boxes that have nothing to do with that franchise. 
"It has shotguns and demons, close enough to Doom for me!" -rmq.txt 
And Stop Writing Quake On Non-Quake 1 Based Games 
JneeraZ is the worst nick ever. 
Talk to Lunaran about it. 
For those that are seemingly having difficulty understanding how the game design process works, I will try to explain in simple terms:

What game designers DON'T do, is finish a game, balance the difficulty, and then at the last minute bolt on some arbitrary new game mechanic that throws the entire balance completely out of whack and call it a day.

What game designers DO do, is get all the game mechanics in place and THEN they do the balancing at the end, with all the game elements already in place.

Because id have been around the block a bit and have the resources to ensure that they aren't completely incompetent, then I would imagine we are more likely getting the latter rather than the former. This hypothesis is backed up by people such as czg who have actually played the game, whose opinion on the matter has objectively more value than all the assumptions and misinformation that everyone else is trying to peddle. 

How does your theory explain Doom 3? 
Misguided And Un-Doomy As D3 Was, It Was Still A Decent Game. 
Just not a doom game. 
How does your theory explain Doom 3?

That's very cute. Doom 3 was pretty good. It was designed as a tense, scary-boos-in-the-dark horror shooter, and on those terms it was pretty well made if you can get over the fact that it's not like Doom 1/2. 
I'm trolling, a little ... but in seriousness, that doesn't sound like a system that belongs in a Doom game.

You're trolling, a lot...

Again you've jumped right from "this mechanic is available as an option" to "this is something you HAVE to do EVERY TIME and if you DON'T the game is BROKEN".

You don't have to carefully plan how much you damage the enemy. Just send in the rockets and blow them to chunky salsa if that's the way you like to play the game. 
The worst thing about (Internet) discussions is this process:

- hear about some thing
- assume that thing takes its very worst and dumbest possible form
- get upset about your assumptions

The second-worst thing is of course when some guy rolls into a forum thread and starts nagging/nannying people, but come onnnnnnn let's not comic-book-guy this place up. At least not more than usual. 
- assume that (Internet) discussions takes its very worst and dumbest possible form

;) I kid, I kid.

#1349: I tend to read it as "Jazeera".

#1353: Doom� was misguided by Half-Life and the lack of Romero. The Doom� design was clearly focused towards shutting up the public who insisted in saying that id's games were brainless gorefests with no story. So, they made Half-Doom. This becomes even more evident by the Resurrection of Evil mission pack including a gravity gun. 
I'm honestly more excited about STRAFE than Doom.

If you've under a rock: 
Strafe looks fun (and other similar things like Gibhard do too) buuuuut... procedural level generation.

Procgen is cool and interesting, I'd love to give the results a try, and I completely understand why small indie teams in particular gravitate that way. But I still assume that it's going to be a different experience in lots of way than the "traditional" singleplayer FPS campaign with designed spaces to explore. At least, for the aspects of games that I personally pay attention to.

(Similarly when I see folks on twitter or wherever talking about how Devil Daggers is a "Quake remake" it's really weird to me.) 
Wasn't there another retro-FPS currently in development, in the same sort of bucket along with Strafe and Gibhard? I'm blanking on it. 
Sorry For The Post Spam But... 
...the other one I was thinking of is 
Wake Me Up 
When someone makes a 90s throwback shooter that actually has hand-crafted levels and not this procedural shite.

Hang on...I've just had an idea... 
Except Desync doesn't use procedural levels (thank god for that). 
Both those games look like ass, HTH. 
skacky: neat, I think I had in mind that Desync was an arcade/score-attack thing with simple and/or procgen levels. Not sure where I got that idea from. Flipping through their devlog I do see them talking about level designers now. 
Not really terribly interested in desync. The character design and theme doesn't really do it for me, it's not relate-able at all.

Strafe is a strange one, I kind of like the idea but I'm not 100% sold on it. I played an early version and the scale feels kind of wrong, wouldn't be a difficult fix IMO as they just need to scale up their map size a tad.

Fun fact, I applied for a job with them as a level designer and got some fun back and forth but it never got me the position. They said it was a paid position but maybe I asked for too much money from them (I didn't ask for a lot but it was probably a considerable amount for an indie dev to pay, they should have haggled maybe). 
Is like a FPS Hotline Miami. It has combos and shit in handcrafted levels, and it's pretty damn fun to play. 
Let's start an online petition to change it.

And another to make mfx login to Func_ on his cellphone. 
It's not a 1st person hotline miami at all. It's more like an attempt to make a Tron game without infringing on any trademarks. 
The way indies use the word "procedural" nowadays is an insult to .theprodukkt's .kkrieger . 
I mean the way it plays is very similar to Hotline Miami. It's a difficult die & retry FPS in which you have to score the maximum amount of points as fast as possible. 
Ah Ok 
Didn't catch that meaning. Thanks for clearing it up. 
Doom Reverse Sleeve Art 
Lol B is way ahead, as it should be. 
I Grealty Prefer Both Over The Current Cover Art 
Of the two, I prefer B as well. 
I voted on A by mistake. They put the URLs inside of the pool options, and when clicking them using the Twitter app it casts a vote instead of opening the URL.

I had to manually type the URL to open the thing in the browser� but afterwards I found out that those pics were near the top of the Doom account tweets anyway.

I bet a significant number of others also voted on A by mistake. Twitter doesn't let us change our votes. 
A By A Long Way. 
Doom Multiplayer Trailer 
for those who haven't seen it yet:

I enjoyed the brief time I had playing Halo 3 multiplayer so I can see this being pretty fun.

Some media outlets are saying it's "exactly like unreal", which I don't see... at all. Doom doesn't appear to be a twitch shooter, which I think is probably a wise move. 
Whaaaaaaaat a shitty shit shit shit shit shit announcer voice!! ARGHHHHH!?!???

"Doom doesn't appear to be a twitch shooter, which I think is probably a wise move."

You serious ? 
OK I litteraly scoffed my coffee out my nose at "unoutchable" at 0:42

My fucking god what are they on ? 
i hope that's temp V.O. 
Yes. Twitch fps players tend to be rather particular. If the the doom muliplayer ended up being mediocre I think they would get more mileage out of a halo clone than a twitch shooter. 
Blah. Doom is twitch, they are pimping the SP as pretty twitchy, not sure why change that for MP and offer yet another of what there is plenty out there. 
I liked UT.....but I think it has a lot to answer for! 
I think people here reacted with too much vitriol to any criticism of DOOM 4.

Level headed opinion:"Killing enemies replenishing your health and ammo is functionally the same as regenerating ammo and health"


Legitimate, articulate observation: "Pinata monster effect looks very stupid and down syndrome as hell, gay and stupid"

Extreme Fanboyist Response by Bethesda viral marketers : "STOP WITH THIS POINTLESS NiTPICKING PINATA MONSTERS LOL AM I RIGHT "

I will give this game a chance I promise but please don't hate me if I fear game design choices that sound stupid in theory might actually play out gay in the final game (spare me the UH YOU DON'T KNOW THAT UH IT'S OPTIONAL)

On the other hand strafe and desync look only slightly interesting and not so promising. I'm willing to bet all on the next serious sam as the best hope for the "fun singleplayer fps game to play" genre 
No No. 
I hate you because your post is utter toss. 
Who's this anonymous fuccboi then 
An Obvious Troll 
Although to get a bite from both the shambler and the czg, suggests some fairly adept troll-fu. That's not a bad result. 
It Was Kinn. 
OK I litteraly scoffed my coffee out my nose at "unoutchable" at 0:42

I initially skimmed over this post because, well Killes post, pinch of salt and all that - but now I've watched the video...seriously that particular bit of VO is so far off the mark it's absolutely astonishing. Would loved to have been a fly on the wall in that recording session.

"That's super darling, but can we dial up the lazy indifference and make it even more camp?" 
It wasn't, I can assure you. 
Now It's Confirmed. 
"That's super darling, but can we dial up the lazy indifference and make it even more camp?"

They should make a classic Doom deathmatch release with Romero shouting profanities as the voiceover. And the sounds of keyboards being smashed. 
Couple More Multiplayer Trailers CTF? 
They Look Like 
more like mutators for DM than multiplayer game modes, so we can still expect to see real game modes, or maybe they just went for the most popular mode and left the rest in case they have money/time ... who knows. We'll know when we see enough. 
Forget It 
i looked at it again and better. Yep, there are real game modes there too.

I suppose that with how much they mentioned that Doom 4 is a fast paced game they wanted to avoid one of the slowest paced game modes, also to avoid being seen as something related to CS and CoD like games. 
CTF slow ???

Get on a Doom CTF server promto and tell me about it.

It is just about the very fastest FPS experience around and ever made. Especially the smaller maps but even the bigger maps when well populated.

0 respawn delay, within 1-2 seconds of respawning you are right in the thick of it again (defense in your base) then you survive that your on your way blasting your way through flesh to the other teams base and flag.

Its a constant tug of war made of frags'a'second, every second of the game. Flag picked up dropped picked up dozens of times in a minute, being passed on fragging to teammate or returned, regrabbed, on and on...

It is pure constant non stop all game long blitz fast fucking action.
It doesn't let up at any moment and is by far my favorite game of any kind ever.

Best adrenaline rush on screen ever devised. 
I Think He Was Sarcastic About CTF Being Slowest Mode 
I can only guess that prods trying to make it as easy as possible and CTF rules is harder to explain, than "click 'em till they die!".

Most of shown gametypes are basically FFA with some twists. Even in team modes you can play Rambo style, completely ignoring your mates and still win.
While in CTF it is still possible, but more complicated. Even newbies can spawn at mid and steal your flag again right after you killed enemy flag carrier at his base. Technically it can go forever like this.

TLDR: CTF is hard and requires too much team coordination. 
CTF Is Slow In TF 
Because of the flag's only way to go back to the base once dropped is via a slow timer, which makes the mode go on slooooow, and defending a dropped flag is too tense and annoying to be fun.

e.g CTF is only slow when you play in a CTF mode with that mechanic 
2nd Closed Beta 
.. will start:
March 31st, 2016 10:PM Eastern time (UTC-5)

.. will end:
April 3rd, 2016 11:59 PM Eastern Time (UTC-5)

Holy shit: I have not been invited :( 
Only Cool Kids Are Invited 
I'm In From Today! 
Enjoy 4 days of playing UT2016 with imba demon spawns and distracting cartoon gore. 
Cartoon Gore! 
Another video of multiplayer shite has been released:

So is this where they think the money is? The seem obsessed purely with the MP in the marketing so far. 
Bated Breath 
The HELL level demo way back when is one of the few things that maintain my excitement. Probably won't grab it on release day considering there will be day 1 patches abound...bleh. 
neat seeing it played with a mouse and keyboard 
That's the first multiplayer video of this game that looked fun to me. 
I thought the multiplayer trailer made it look pretty fun, but seeing real gameplay with a mouse and keyboard makes a better impression.

Until recently, it was my assumption the beta would be singleplayer :/ 
"I Like Smudgy Shit" 
God fucking damn turn the movement blur off!!!

Do people really play like that ? Why not wipe some fresh shit on your screen before playing too.

What an idea for a twitchy game...fukken noob.

Otherwise I agree looking more interesting with mouse+kb 
Wait What 
is that ctf with all the red and blue arrows? Unbelievable.

Also, looks faster than I thought but everything else including design doesnt look that promising IMHO. 
It Is Warpath 
you can see the name of the mode in upper left corner 
As In, Warpath The Transformer 
Or Thomas the Game Engine.

Ok, I'll stop� 
Fairly terrible cinematic trailer released: 
Nowt Wrong With That IMO. 
Dat "music" Tho 
Oh, Had Sound Off...... 
Doom guy runs like a wounded gorilla. 
That's What A Doom Movie Should Be Like 
Also, in this video the D4's doomguy is really recognizable. I don't know if they changed something in the model, but now it does look faithful to the classic Doomguy.

The yellow filter also seems to be gone, which is great. 
Not music, just somebody screaming to be heard over awful guitar noise.

The multiplayer looks like they are catering to the kindergarten set.

I honestly haven't seen anything yet that makes me want to buy. 
To be honest though, I'm just a grumpy old man. 
To be honest though, I'm just a grumpy old man.

Not at all. I was very much giving this game the benefit of the doubt, but the complete and total saturation of multiplayer wank in the marketing strategy is making me very suspicious. 
Too Much Running, Too Little Gore 
New Doom Pants 
To be honest though, I'm just a grumpy old man
You, me and pretty much everyone else at this place! Func really is the epicenter of all things grumpy, cantankerous and Quake rolled into one!

New Doom Trailer Thoughts 
Cinematic Trailer 
Aside from the goofy mo-cap and the metal-by-numbers soundtrack it's pretty alright. The visual fidelity of these cinematics is always neat to see.

Also, Doomguy isn't going to live very long if he keeps running directly into the business end of the cyberdemon's rocket launcher. 
I Doubt It Is Mocap 
there is no feel of heavy armor weight, or even his own body weight, for that matter, in run animations. 
I think nobody makes cinematics without mo-cap these days. 
"impressions" So Far 
1. there's multiplayer only
2. console is disabled
3. can't just open map and walk to check amazing gfx
4. didn't actually play anything since i get this - "Unable to reach dedicated servers endpoint."
5. according to nerdrage on forums you can't change fov, so people get sick ;)
6. happy i didn't preorder this so far 
the low fov gave me a pretty bangin headache after a couple hours. the multiplayer is pretty fun, the controls are nice, it runs great and is pretty. overall, it just feels familiar and just kinda more of the same. I'm really only here for the singleplayer. 
but does this run sequence look captured? 
No changing fov ?
Ahhhhhhhhh...April 1st, nice on Von

...I wish.... 
I Was More Impressed By His Movement 
Vondur, try a VPN. russia->ireland->doom works for me.

Movement is like in unreal series, slow and no bunny-hoping.
No dash jumps tho.
Double jump is actually useful and helps to reach some places.
The game has XP like in battlefield to open new powerups (like throwable stuff, teleporters, revealing stats on enemies), weapons, player skins.

Direct RL hit takes 55 hp -> no spawnfrags :(.
Weapons have 2nd fire mode, for example LG has area damage in alt fire, for RL it explodes rocket. 
The game has XP like in battlefield

OK I was on the fence for the longest time but fuck this game. 
it sounds worse and worse with each new bits of info 
Only Played Deathmatch 
Marine armor feels like plastic. Armor colors are horrific and ugly. Bright pinks and whites and so on.

After playing so much Blops3, the double jump feels awkward and clunky. Movement is SO SLOW.

Demons are probably fun for the guy who gets it, but I never had fun fighting a Revenant.

Rocket launcher feels super weak. Maybe I'm just misremembering how a rocket launcher feels, though.

Armor is green, health is blue, maybe it's just me but I think I would have switched those around.

Maps are okay-to-pretty looking. Nothing really stood out about them.

I'm not saying it's bad, but I definitely don't see anything about it that gets me excited to play it, especially vs games like Battleborn or Overwatch. 
Green armor and blue health are the same colors used in classic Doom (blue potions, helmets with glowing green eyes).

I don't play multiplayer, so I don't care much about the bad multiplayer reviews. 
same colors used in classic Doom
Yeah, but it's out of place today imo. If they're going keep anything from the original Doom, it shouldn't be that. 
awright lads yeah that doom looks not bad dunnit might see if i can get me ol jimmy shands on a hooky copy 
Closef Beta 
Having played 3 matches: it feels like UT, except shit. 
As I spoke with Zwiffle on Twitter, there is no armor system. It's literally just health, depicted on a second HUD bar. The Low Health warning goes away if you add enough armor (basically, if both numbers combined go over 40), and the armor has 100% damage absorb from apparently everything.

I've not played it, just frame stepped some YouTube videos. It also has generic Ammo Pickup, and loadouts - you know, the features that the Quake Live community soundly rejected last year. The other feature they rejected was item respawn time indicators, which is available as a Hack Module in Doom 4.

You can glean a lot from watching some videos simply because of the damage numbers popping out of everyone. The rocket launcher seems to do approximately 35 damage (with a headshot it does 55), meaning you can barrel stuff people with it. With quad, it is about on par with the Quake rl. Plasma gun does 6 damage (9 to the head), making it a 17 shot kill against an unarmored opponent.

But don't you worry, you'll unlock Rocket Launcher Mastery III so you can get a cool new color for your armor, to really shine while doing the Carlton Dance!

Just... Ugh. 
Minor Victory 
+set com_skipIntroVideo works, it helps when trying out different fov related cvars.

On that note, nothing is working on the fov front. I've tried +set g_fov 120, +set cg_fov 120 and +cg_fov 120.

I'd really like to play this without the nausea.

I hope the SP is good, my body has been ready for this game since it was announced in 08/09. So far, the experience has left me feeling like a gullible dumbfuck. I even pre-ordered. 
I believe you can cancel pre-orders?

I was excited before any real reveals happened, because, well, I had some hope. I actually like many elements of Rage, and thought if those same people came together on an existing IP with more focus, this could be awesome. I didn't realize how much the staff had changed (a lot more than Carmack quit), and didn't think they would outsource the multiplayer to actual Halo developers.

Back to my plan of having another great FPS to play: Becoming independently wealthy and hiring people to enable one of my designs. 
So, Doom4 MP Is Dung?? 
Weak RL, weak plasma, sluggish movement, no bunny-hopping, alt-fire, 2 weapon load-outs, etc etc, is what I am picking up from what people are saying??

I.e. not a true successor Id-style simple and effective Multiplayer at all.

All of which fits with my theory that they are basing the gameplay too much on avoiding Doom3-style criticisms, rather than just sticking to core FPS values.

The thing is, what would people want?? Bearing in mind, that they will want to have SOME novelty and SOME tweaks over previous ID MP games....

QuakeLive original pace (before the "update" ruined it as Scarecrow points out), with, say the addition of Doom4 weapons, double-jumping (or whatever the fuck it's called), and the monster spawn mode??

TBH that sounds fairly sensible to me?? 
I haven't played the beta yet, but I'm sure the RL did more damage than that in the alpha. I was confused about the often-low numbers popping off of people when I hit them with the RL, until (I think) I found out that it was only showing health damage, not armor damage? Maybe I'm misremembering. 
What People Actually Want 
I'm pretty sure that what the PC babies want is "Quake 3 but with 'good graphics'", i.e tons of normal mapping, HDR, bloom, post-processing, and sub-pixel detail when you slam your face into a wall, but still runs fast on their shit hardware otherwise they cry about it being "not optimized".

I don't know what other people want. At this stage I just reach for the bottle of whiskey. 
I guess we'll only get a gameplay video showing the maps like this after the game comes out:

Sure, the combat isn't as good as the singleplayer D4 combat seems to be, but we get an actual sense of exploration in this video. 
Lol U Guys 
Why is any of this such a mystery? They go where the money is obviously. The money is with the generation of gamers that are at least ten years younger than anyone who posts here, and grew up playing Halo and CoD.

Rocket (Jump) Science this ain't! 
Is Rocket Jumping Now An Auto-macro? 
...or a finishing move type thingy?? 
PC Babies 
I'm pretty sure that what the PC babies want is "Quake 3 but with 'good graphics'", i.e tons of normal mapping, HDR, bloom, post-processing,..."

so, xonotic?

at this point I just want a playable fov. 
If you want playable FOVs, any Treyarch CoD will do ya. Granted, that franchise has recently been faster than what we can see here, and more vertical. The exception being Ghosts which is very much slower, almost insistently so, but it is curiously even more vertical than the follow ups with their double jumping and thrusters...

I know cannonball got another map pack into the Cacowards last year, I'll check that out. Doom (and thus also Quake) has gone the way of Blood, the IP has passed into the hands of people who don't understand it. 
Errrrr Okay Then. 
I'm pretty sure that what the PC babies want is "Quake 3 but with 'good graphics'", i.e tons of normal mapping, HDR, bloom, post-processing, and sub-pixel detail when you slam your face into a wall, but still runs fast on their shit hardware otherwise they cry about it being "not optimized".

And what would be the problem with that? And what would you prefer? 
Assuming Q3A CPMA mode / QuakeLive i.e. the actual playable version rather than the shit that shipped. 
Ql is fine.
there is no more official servers meaning no more loadout either. I'm sure there is still some servers that use all the weird settings like loadouts and spawn timers, but I never saw one after developing and support was discontinued. 
I Want 
The same game as it is now, but with guns that feel good and maps that aren't fucking shit. 
generally gameplay feels like modern UT, maps layout are nothing special, gfx is shiny.

for me it's a bit annoying to have fucking loadouts with 3 weapons, i can't use all array like in good old times. all those upgrades and shit. why bring all this call of dutiness into doom?

and finally.... fov is currently 60 or something, and u can't change that, so after 1-2 matches my head was aching. 
FOV is going to be provided:

Beta release is clearly a beta release. Don't expect to be running final code. 
lazy to write again, cnp from #tf:

<Vondur> well, generally doom mp is ok
<Shambler> OMG
<Vondur> nothing super new though, but being good old rev is fun
<Shambler> TRAITER
<Shambler> FOV60-loving-loadout-loving-commiewhorebag
<Vondur> i like that moving capture zone thingy
<Vondur> static zones are boring
* Shambler moves the zone directly into lava just for vondur
<Vondur> yes fov sucks beyond reality, other than that it's ok
<Vondur> :D 
FOV is going to be provided

He didn't mention the range of allowable values tho ;} 
FOV slider will go from 0-60

pc gaming master race ftw 
I do find it funny how Doom 4's design is chasing the console style, while failing to properly ape the king of console FPSes, CoD. Yeah in CoD most people carry two guns... ...but they also have a bunch of attachments which change them, and perks in varying combinations which change the players... So that two weapon limit feels less restrictive and more "Here is the strength I will focus on." That and the weapons are in classes which modify movement, so it has positioning implications...

Honestly, it feels like they're just recreating the weak points of every thing. 
To Be Fair... 
...this game wasn't made for the older generation that grew up with the original 2 games. If they pandered to that few dozen of us then nobody would play it. They make what will sell, keep in mind that id software sold to Zenimax for a reason.

My thoughts:
- Any successful in the last 10 years had loadouts in one form or another--it's here, it's queer, get used to it.
- Movement is slow, bring that up about 10%. I'll compromise at a higher FOV and 5%.
- Rockets are weak, the blast radius is small, and my biggest complaint about them: little to no kick from splash. I can't kick people off into the lava, which sucks because this game gives you credit if you damage them before they fall in--which I prefer to simply calling it a suicide.
- Is there anybody on this team that either a) is already on the UT team or b) was on the previous UT teams? I swear this feels like UT.
- Fuck me, this engine drags ass. I realize my system is 3 years old at this point, but I've had no trouble with any other game: i5-2500k, AMD 7950. I have to overclock to make it (mostly) smooth.
- The announcer is a little weak, which I am fine with so long as I could hear it far less often. Why couldn't they just hire the guy from Q3A? He hangs around reddit and did an AMA, reach out.
- SFX are fine to me, they seem appropriate enough--still sounds like UT though.
- I am holding out for the single player, I hope they put more work into that. The first 2 games weren't really multiplayer games, this should be SP first.
- To make the older generation happy, they need to create a "Classic Deathmatch" mode with proper weapon pickups. 
Why Couldn't They Just Hire The Guy From Q3A? 
This part is a bit dated and is about QL, but explains things nonetheless
the owners of QuakeLive (Bethesda) are in a bit of a legal battle with the Oculus Rift, and Xian (the previous voice actor) works for Oculus Rift 
I don't think they'll ever make an expensive product for the old generation, not the big companies, maybe a kickstarter or a good indie team.

There is Reflex , but it's pretty much dead and no SP, cool mapping features though.. 
The announcer is pretty garbage 
I watched k1llsen play a bit yesterday. It seems utterly generic. Apart from it being new and thus populated with players I could not see any reason to play it. The looks remind me of Nexuiz/Xonotic which was/is random candy colors with no nice style. Hopefully the SP will be better. 
The PC crowd that grew up with doom and quake - and (this is the important bit) *still* buy and play games - represent such a small slice of the market now, that there will never be a big-budget game that panders to them.

I'm always amazed when people here still don't seem to have twigged this in TYOOL 2016. 
I played it for a few hours yesterday. Here's some thoughts

There are flaws for sure. The base map level is super generic and difficult to navigate due to a lack of landmarks. The hell map is actually very well designed and easier to navigate. Both maps are super inter-connected and chase/evasion style fighting can be quite fun.

Some of the aesthetic choices are really questionable, I feel like the characters are all from Halo and that goes for the customisation features. Many of the menus and ideas are stolen from COD, probably to add familiarity to newcomers.

Movement is like a butchered version of UT. I enjoy the extra movement like double jumps and mantling up ledges, it adds further options to getting around the well connected maps. But the lack of dodge, sprint or bunny hopping means that the movement feels too slow. I would love a bit more warning when the demon rune or quad is spawning and have the chance to haul ass over to the powerup.

2 Weapon limit is piss poor, it was bad in Quake Live and it's bad here. This is an idea borrowed from Halo but implemented poorly because even with Halo you can find weapons in the map to swap out. This isn't present in Doom and it gives you less of a reason to traverse the map. I don't understand why they chose this for Doom when it was uni-laterally hated when introduced in Quake Live.

Graphics are nice overall. Texture res is a bit low but I would expect it to be better in the full game. This is basically a Demo and smaller textures mean smaller download size.

Sound design ranges from average to downright ass. The "music" is forgettable. None of the weapons pack any punch. The announcer is so boring he could send a glass eye to sleep (seriously, even the Quake announcer was better... the UT announcer should be what all arena shooters aspire to).

Even with all these flaws it's not a terrible game. Fun was had with the game. I hope the singleplayer is better, I never cared about Dooms multiplayer anyway (except local co-op on xbox 360). 
> Movement is like a butchered version of UT. ... But the lack of dodge, sprint or bunny hopping means that the movement feels too slow.

If they at least added dodge (the double-tap) it would be a lot better. It felt so chunky like UT that I was double-tapping to dodge around, but it wasn't happening. People say make the haste rune speed the default, but I think that would be a bit too much.

> The "music" is forgettable.

You're right. I really enjoy the music, but I'm not going to remember it and it won't spark any memories down the line.

> 2 Weapon limit is piss poor ... even with Halo you can find weapons in the map to swap out ... This isn't present in Doom and it gives you less of a reason to traverse the map.

I don't mind it in theory, but you're right on this. These maps lack any real pinch points because there's nothing of value to pick up. Ammo is generic, health is generic, and armor is health. It makes it interesting because you'll fight everywhere, but boring because there's no place to attract to so you have to look. I've spent a lot of time on full servers looking for enemies, especially with the demon rune. At least in the hell-themed map there's 2 major areas to gather: the inside arena and the pit/bridge area. 
These maps lack any real pinch points because there's nothing of value to pick up. Ammo is generic, health is generic, and armor is health. It makes it interesting because you'll fight everywhere, but boring because there's no place to attract to

So this is what they mean by "combat, combat, combat"? Some of these design choices will likely spread to the SP campaign then. 
The platform/pit atrium in the hell map has a bad ass 4-charge super gun. Having this choke point adds huge gameplay value to that area. Proper risk/reward stuff.

I don't get how you can have 2 decades of video game content with innovative gameplay foundations and then just straight up ignore it for design choices that the community vehemently detests! 
Who are you speaking of? It seems everyone wants a game they can enjoy. Sure, much of what they enjoy may be aligned with older mechanical design, but no period is golden, and this period isn't inherently horrible either - though I do think it has fewer great games.

From what I can see, they're just aping the weakest points of the period. They're not progressing, they're imitating. Loadouts aren't inherently bad, but you need to do them thoughtfully. Same goes for most other mechanics - my issue with most modern games isn't a line by line of mechanics, but the combination of them, and the implementations therein.

I'm not expecting a sequel to Doom 2, or a sequel to Doom 3 - but I did hope for something a little more thought out. I wasn't a huge fan of Doom 3, but it didn't make me go "Oh, they've been playing " [x/y/z]. Personally I think a game which acknowledged what is done right in Doom, Halo, and CoD alike could be at least decent - but I'm not seeing an acknowledgement of what they did. Just tickboxes being filled. 
I agree with fifth on the points he raised. I'd like to add my my thoughts on the beta as well.


speed - yes, it's certainly slower than games of yore and other arena shooters like UT. However, I think the speed is appropriate for the game's scale, though it could stand to be a bit faster. I think when we say we want the "speed of doom" we're thinking of it in an abstract way without considering all the other things in doom that made it work. Spaces in doom 1/2 are typically medium to large with simple detail, enemies are easily readable (even a distance or during hectic combat) and each have a very unique visual identity. Everything was simply bigger and bulkier which greatly lessened the negative effects of fast player movement.

instead of putting all mobility into raw speed they added double jump and mantling, which I think is a good move and I like. Currently, the FOV causes mantling to be somewhat disorienting. I think the movement in general will feel much better and be perceived as faster when they implement a proper FOV...

*must refrain from enraged FOV rant, must refrain...*

glory kills - I use them a lot, and because of that I killed a lot when sitting through the kill animation. Glory kill animations are simply too long in a multiplayer context. Cut the time in half and make them more fluid.

melee - melee could be expanded a bit and should be separate from glory kills. I think Halo did melee well, you can assassinate someone by hitting them in the back. I would love to see this in doom, this mechanic would fit well with the current map/combat design.

grenades - love using nades, perhaps having an upgrade or hack module allowing you to carry 1 additional nade (so a total of 2) would be great. Give us more grenade variations like sticky nades, freeze nades, various utility nades, etc.


visuals - whenever I look at doom the word "safe" keeps coming to mind. The design is just so safe, and because of that it really lacks any character whatsoever. It's clear the art was created by skilled people, but the art direction is so bland. Much of the assets seem like they came from various online asset stores.

sound - the sound in general is very flat. Volumes and EQs need to be adjusted. They may sound good on their own, but in the mix they just get buried and mask each other.

pickup colors - blue health, green armor, etc. Kind of counterintuitive, but considering the color palette of the levels I'm not sure they really had a choice. It gets the job done, I think.

I have quite a few other nitpicks, especially in the UI department. But these are the main things I think that need to be addressed.

that being said, I'm enjoying the game, even more so than the current UT. I just hope they fix some things. 
2016 "Doom: Fight Like Hell" trailer with E1M1 music:

A bit repetitive, but the mood is good. 
At least they don't fake the run speed in the trailer. 
You can have a season pass to my fist up your arse!

My god, they're really putting the turd-cherry on top of the cake now. 
Kinda with the dribbling rant-factory that is killes on that one.

I don't even get DLCs and season passes. WTF happened to good old mission packs?? 
"Graphics API: High"

lol. I don't think the person who made those fake settings knows what "API" means. 
I thought that was strange. there is a discussion about that in this thread
Apart from that particular aspect, I can't see anything wrong with those screenies??? 
Colorblind mode (sorry, "COLORBLIND MODE") "low" rather than "off"? Some options in all-caps, some not. It's either very early placeholder work or a fake. 
Certainly A Fake 
I can't believe they can do a so shitty Graphic Setting Window...come on... 
What software is the artist using in that video? 
Photoshop CS6 
Thanks :) 
So, did they invent the term "reverse sleeve" just for Doom 4?

I'd never heard it before and googling pretty much only gave references to Doom 4. 
So, did they invent the term "reverse sleeve" just for Doom 4?

Nah, it's just a perineum away from the "wizard's sleeve". 
Not invented for Doom 4. I remember Bioshock Infinite doing something similar, and I'm sure it wasn't new then either. 
Ah, okay. Finally got some results googling:

game reverse sleeve -doom

Mostly just for console games these days I guess. I have very few PC games in packaging that could do that. 
Nah, it's just a perineum away from the "wizard's sleeve".

You've been reading Roger Mellie! :) 
it's returned and it's 110 max omg 
It Is All Fun And Games Until You Actually Try It 
You need to gain XP to level up to unlock LG... At the same time XP could be raised by, uhm, existing.
0 frags, 8 deaths in first match...
1270 XP! Holy crap, now that's some quality instant gratification for you.

It is not a game, it is a shame 8(

Oh and For some reason FOV 110 feels like 90. 
Oh Boy 
Enjoy post #1500. 
Played the open beta some, I'll have more thoughts later, but... after the past several CoDs, the movement in this felt restrictive and clunky. I can move at one fixed rate, and I can do a dinky jump, or another dinky jump, and nothing seems to impact anyone's momentum. Yeah there is mantling, but it isn't quite consistent, and it seems like everything is either on the same level of you, or a double jump plus auto-mantle away, so it feels less like a capability and more like a canned animation for normal activity.

I somehow still feel ripped off even though it was free. 
Really glad they had an open beta because I feel the same way. Now I know not just to not preorder, but to never buy the game even if it's 50% off or lower. 
More Enjoyable Than The Closed Beta 
For me, having a playable fov makes a huge difference. Also, the wider fov causes me to perceive the movement as faster, so yay for that.

I dunno, maybe it's because I'm getting older, but I don't really have a huge issue with the casualized muliplayer. It's kinda nice to just go with the flow and not have to exert any effort and still have the gratification of owning. It's like candy, it's superficial and won't sustain you but it's enjoyable for a few minutes.

I can sympathize with some of the 'outrage' though, some elements don't seem very thought out and certainly none if it looks, sounds or feels really anything like doom to me. I really can't detect any doom 'vibe'. Probably the wrong IP to plaster on this game (the multiplayer, anyway).

� Entertaining in short bursts

� Runs well and is pretty

� Very accessible and manages to be fairly rewarding for very little effort (good for those with limited time or interest)

� The announcer HOLY FUCK

� Gameplay feels somewhat 'swingy' due to the demon rune and 1-hit-kill cannon

� Loadouts SUBSTITUTING in-map pickups sucks

� My Little Marine(tm) dress-up

� Imbalanced match-making (not sure what metrics they use, but they're not working)

� Lack of free-for-all deathmatch is a huge mistake and is amplified by the shoddy match-making system (this is what will likely be the nail in the coffin for me)

All-in-all I'm not distraught over the muliplayer, I'm enjoying it for what it is. Then again, my main focus is the single player, so there's that. 
I've nothing against casual friendly mp. I enjoy some CoD mp. They usually do casual well. I disliked this because it wasn't fun, and it lacked any distinct elements or general feel. For example, I don't enjoy Battlefield, but it feels like Battlefield.

This is not up to par for a AAA game. 
The feedback doesn't look good on Bethesda's own forums either. 
i feel pity for those guys working on it. so much flak. 
Whoever is responsible deserves the flak.
They have all the money, all the resources, no excuses really as far as I know.

I played 15 min, freaking boring plastic experience. Feels all wrong, no momentum, plastic feeling guns, 2 weapons WHAT THE FUCK and so on.

Fucking aye what is this ?

#1503 "I dunno, maybe it's because I'm getting older, but I don't....enjoyable for a few minutes. "

Yes yes yes... this might be fine for some no name AAA popcorn 30� game of the season...
We are speaking DOOM here though. A popcorn experience you will grow bored of after a month...that's it, for the MP part of the sequel to THE most legendary FPS ever created ? Pffft, fucking F-A-I-L thats all there is to it.
A fail plain and simple, justify it as you please. 
I Think 
They have all the money, all the resources

and a publisher that wants a new halo 

Turns out it's a console game aimed at console gamers. Who'd have thunk it? 
They have waaay enough resources to make alternative MP rules/gamemodes for PC and Console versions as the 2 populations do not interact in MP.

Ahhh that would be too much work above the minimum effort eh ?

There is no justification for the job they have done, sorry. There is money in making a dumbed down console Doom, no doubts there.
There is also money in making a well loved MP portion for the PC version at the same time as the console dumb-dumb stuff.

As it looks so far they will make plenty money on console and miss out on plenty of cash on the PC version. Why not have both ?

No to mention the damage they do to the IP.
It is an opportunity to keep the strength of the just about most recognizable and respected FPS IP ever.

It simply has to have good MP for a financial success on PC plain and simple.
(yes if MP sucks many will simply pirate for the SP and not pay a cent on PC).

It cannot even be justified with cold business sense Kinn. The studios and management are not up to the task of maximizing profit potential there, if I were a large shareholder I would chew them up for it. 
No, I Get It 
They dropped the ball, in a big way, I'm not trying to justify it. I just wanted to offer my thoughts from a more charitable angle. Also, like mfx, I feel bad for the team.

On that note, where does the culpability really lie? The executive producer (stratton)? zeni execs? I was under the impression that zenimax had a 'hands-off' approach with id. How much of the id team really has a say? Aren't there veterans there that have a bit of influence?

I this is all really interesting; the dynamic between id, zenimax, the doom ip and the customer and how it's all playing out.

Is this game really just a cash grab or is it people with good intentions simply making mistakes? Who knows. The hiring of hugo martin as art director still seems strange. He has experience and is very talented but nothing he's ever done looked like doom (or id anything) to me. Also, I'm pretty sure he's worked on halo at some point. 
I agree that in an ideal world they should ship with two different MP gamemodes, one for PC and one for consoles. The different platforms require different design sensibilities and obviously they went with the one that has the higher playerbase (more moneys), so I can understand why the higher ups went "fuck the PC". It makes them tossers, but I understand why those sorts of decisions get made. 
I was under the impression that zenimax had a 'hands-off' approach with id.

Not since Rage flopped, no. 
There's not really much id left at id anyway. The few that remain from the original Doom and Quake days are apparently the ones that had no idea what they were doing.

65% negative feedback for the open beta on Steam. Hopeless. 
If Romero's FPS makes Doom 4 its b****, that will be one of the biggest comebacks in gaming history. 
"A Steam Community Group Announcement has word that the DOOM Open Beta on Steam has been extended, and everyone has an additional 24 hours to check out id's new installment in their shooter series. Word is: "You asked for it! We're extending DOOM Open Beta for an extra day."

Nooo please no more! We will stop posting negative reviews, we weren't asking for it!! 
Just been looking at the Sight-seeing is not an option fan video, and one thing jumps out at me.

In Doom 3 virtually every room had something moving in it. It might be a fan, a piece of equipment, stuff on a conveyor-belt, a swinging light, whatever. It was there, it was simple but effective, and it really created such a sense of immersion: this was a world that people lived in, and there's stuff in this room that will go on even after you've left it.

In Rage that was all gone. The world was static, and the game suffered as a result.

In what we've seen of Doom 4 it's gone too. Sure, there's particles floating about and some liquid effects, but there's nothing (or at best very little) in the way of moving objects there.

Maybe what we've seen so far is primarily MP, and maybe this absence is an optimization for MP, I dunno. It is an observation about Doom 3 vs Rage that I don't recall seeing before though. 
Moving parts in MP would be a bad idea regardless of the performance.

When I catch movement with a corner of my eye I want to be sure it is an enemy (or teammate), not an eye-candy that will get me distracted and possibly killed. 
Wot DoubleDee Said. 
It partially depends on what the mp is going for: Are these arenas for combat (as they are in Q3A/QL and UT), or are they places where combat is happening (most other games, Quake, CoD, Halo, Titanfall, Battlefield)?

If the former, you can argue for the purity of the combatant's focus. If the latter, well, there should be an indication it ever served another purpose.

The monitors displaying the UAC logo and a technical difficulties warning implies that it is a functional facility. The same can be said of the patterns in the blood, suggesting a ritual.

Also, not all movement is just decoration. Quake's moving platforms in dm2 liven up the map and allow for skilled movement decisions. The flittering bits of newspaper in CoD are intentionally there to distract your eyes momentarily from choke points - or hilariously make you twitch fire at them, creating a red dot on the minimap.

I never felt distracted by the ambient moving elements like fans and swinging lights - it was when they only sometimes triggered that they distracted me.

I guess I'm very neutral on this, so long as it is a consistent design approach for the given game.

The id developers are certainly aware of the criticism. 
This Always Happens 
when a game that has its roots firmly planted in the PC space but gets "console-ised". It happened with Deus Ex and Thief (Thief 4 and Deadly Shadows were both slammed for being dumbed down) as well.

Many PC Gamers feel like it's insulting or a slap in the face to them as they were the people who supported their game originally and made them successful. At least that's how I see it. 
Many PC Gamers feel like it's insulting or a slap in the face to them as they were the people who supported their game originally and made them successful.

To be honest, many PC gamers are behaving like entitled babies.

You hand over your money, you get your game, and that's where any relationships or obligations between you and the developer start and end. The developer is certainly not obliged to make their next game the way you want it to be. They already got the payback for handing over their money and now they want more? 
GrizzlyRed @branrags 8h8 hours ago
@idSoftwareTiago So many negative reviews on Steam!

Tiago Sousa @idSoftwareTiago 8h8 hours ago
@branrags I know right? On PS4 last I checked was 5/5, XB1 4.5/5.0 rating

The days of developers catering to the self-styled "PC Master Race" crowd are long over. Sorry chaps. 
It's not the past but the present: They're releasing on PC, so the PC users expect an experience that runs well, and feels good on the PC.

The gameplay is clearly optimized around gamepads, which is most certainly not the primary input device for PC.

id released an open beta on each platform. They got feedback on each platform. One of those platforms is having a majority negative experience due to the support for the others. This is being voiced, correctly, through reviews, comments, and canceled pre-orders. 
To Be Honest, Many PC Gamers Want Games That Are Less Shit. 
You should see the Skyrim and Fallout console players reacting to mod videos... They certainly regard it as an upgrade.

The Doom 4 mp was designed by people who design for consoles, it's pretty logical that console players would enjoy this more. It's on par with if some in this community somehow got their hands on the Halo IP rights and did a multiplatform release where the design favored PC - the review situation would flip. 
What I just do not understand is how investors / shareholders / management and whoever else is responsible for the profit generated by the venture let this kind of shit slip by on a large and expensive project of the kind ?

Fuck the PC MP up and all you will have is people torrenting the game for the SP.

I mean they have the game ready and all, its just tweaking or basically modding the existing game for it to play well on PC. Cannot be that much of an expensive investment to dedicate a small team to the task for the chance of doubling or tripling the PC sales (and no PC is not a small worthless market)

The ROI is obvious.

On the other hand if all major studios keep on like this they will certainly be making sure the propehcy of "oh my godz there is no moneyh in the PC market, fuck em" fulfills itself. 
#1528 the idea to me here is for the MP portion the game can be vastly different between the platforms, because why not if there is no cross platform MP ??

You telling me a full fledged professional studio does not have it in them to change gameplay variables, inventory, map layouts etc ?

It is not designing a whole new SP campaing, engine, assets etc etc. 
To Be Honest, Many PC Gamers Want Games That Are Less Shit.

And there's absolutely nothing wrong with this.

Calling out a game that's shit because it's shit is fine, OK, perfectly in order, expected, one's natural right, something would be wrong with you if you didn't.

Behaving like an entitled whingeing baby who believes that the developers somehow owe them something while doing so? Nah, that's not gonna fly. 
What PC Gamers Aspire To Be: 
I don't recall what the change was, but Black Ops 3 recently forked on balance patches. PC received different changes to weapons than XBO/PS4. So, Treyarch knows how to do it. 
I see no sense in the "this is how console games should be" argument.

The original Doom was perfectly playable in the SNES. Doom 64 had nearly identical gameplay to Doom and Doom II, and even more intricate map layouts. Duke Nukem 64 multiplayer is very fun, and Unreal Tournament is also good to play with gamepads on the Dreamcast. When Doom II was released on the Xbox Live it was very successful and highly acclaimed by users for its fun multiplayer.

Sure, analog sticks are less accurate than a mouse, but it doesn't necessarily make a game less fun. On my Quake port to the Dreamcast (Makaqu) I've made sure to code and test all aspects of the analog stick input by implementing deadzone, threshold, normalization, FOV-scaled sensitivity and so on, and it became pretty fun to play � in fact, the only time I've beaten the whole game was when playing it on that Dreamcast port. The only FPS I've really had a hard time to control it with a gamepad is Quake III Arena.

I've skipped most modern shooter franchises, including all the military ones (COD, MOH, BF, FC, etc.), but using a gamepad doesn't make classic FPS gameplay inherently broken. 
I don't know about SNES playability... but Doom64 was certainly not lacking in difficulty. As I recall it was regarded as very hard - but also as a fun and good game.

Doom2 on XBL, I recall a friend who was doing well, but ran into difficulty because he needed to switch weapons quickly, and though it has a weapon swap queue, so you can triple tap the button (I think Y), to go from pistol to rocket launcher for example, it had just enough latency to make the game a lot harder for him than it was on PC (and he is primarily a console gamer).

So, it's not completely unfeasible, but rather, it has a higher skill floor, and that cuts out a lot of initial players. 
DOOM 64 
Was pretty difficult not only in the labyrinthine design but also the fact you could barely see where you were going! The haunting soundtrack was top notch as well...legitimately a frightening game.

Come to think of it, I really enjoyed Quake 64 as well. It was actually my first Quake experience and it scared the living crap out of me.

Erm anyway I still will bide my judgment until I see how the Single Player fares for DOOM. 
The thing is, these games are always designed from the ground up to be optimised for the console/controller (because that's the most profitable platform), and they are aimed at a mass audience, not just the elite players.

They are never designed as PC games first, with a "nerfed" fork for the console crowd.

FPS games *could* and *should* be forked for PC and console, but what happens is the publishers crunch the numbers and decide it's not worth their time. Whatcha gonna do?

Didn't Epic Games famously state many years ago that the PC is no longer worth their time? I imagine most publishers & devs have the same opinion even if they won't publicly say so. 
Kinn :

For Doom4 we can skip the stuff about free 2 play and mmorpgs / social games etc.

Lets look at GTA V here as a comparable full price pay up front game with SP and MP : at GTA V as an example - 322mill$ revenvue on consoles. 205mill$ on PC.

Yes Consoles may bring in more income on this kind of title, but the PC part is non negligible.

Im saying they could surely substantially raise their take-in on the PC version by treating it seriously instead of pussying out on it a la Epic Games or whatever... 
The Steam Reviews Make My Brain Bleed 
People who dismiss the negative reviews as "people stuck in the 90's" are, at worst, dishonest and, at best, blind to the obvious issues with the game. OTH, quite a few of the negative reviews are so poorly articulated that "not doom 1 or 2 = not fun" is the only thing you can really take away from it.

I think TotalBiscuit put it well when he said that the MP is essentially a "master of none".

This could just as easily been Quake V. Replace the super shotgun with a nailgun and the demon rune with a nether rune and BAM, Quake V. This is just as much Quake V as it is Doom 4.

I get that the console market is huge and think that it's only right and natural to develop for it, I certainly enjoy some console games. But damn, did no one stop and think that maybe plastering the doom ip, you know, the one that is synonymous with PC gaming, the PC game of all time, onto a nebulous blob of a console game could possibly be a bad idea? I just don't understand why doom? Why, of all ips, why doom? WHY? That's a rhetorical question, of course, and the answer is obvious. That is what I find insulting, the whoring of a beloved ip. 
there's always one... every time. 
Doom is synonymous with PC gaming and should be developed for that audience first and then ported second. 
"Optimizing for consoles" is an oversimplification, and that's the point I was trying to get across.

How could stuff like loadouts, lack of pickup weapons and generic ammo pickups be an optimization? This kind of design choices have nothing to do with technical constraints. 
You Mean Catering To Console Players 
as these are design choices. I agree. It's crap 
In my time, console players were hardcore. From BattleToads to games like Super Contra, Street Fighter III, Donkey Kong Country Returns and Ikaruga. Console players used to enjoy playing challenging games. 
How could stuff like loadouts, lack of pickup weapons and generic ammo pickups be an optimization? This kind of design choices have nothing to do with technical constraints.

I'm not talking about "optimising performance" I'm using the term in its more general meaning. "Designing for" "catering for" would have been clearer, yes. 
Delivers what promises, 10/10, A+++ etc. 
My View 
@Fifth: It's a stretch to say that Doom is synonymous with PC games. It was a cool game 20 years ago that sort of defined the FPS formula and stood out with its excessive gore and violence, but there were many PC games as awesome as Doom. Diablo for one was absolutely huge. Tons of great classic games appeared on the PC around that time. Baldur's Gate, Planescape Torment, Fallout...

Great games also appeared on consoles. Final Fantasy, Chrono Trigger, Vagrant Story, Metal Gear Solid...

Developing a game for PC first and then porting to console isn't economical for the large publishers, quite simply. PC k&m twitch shooter players (or esports players) are a minority compared to the console install base. Twitch shooters are moving from general use into esports, which makes complete sense. I mean Quakeworld and Q3 basically IS esports, just not always for money (just sometimes.)

I don't really see what's wrong with consoles, either. I can enjoy a lot of console games just fine. I had great times with consoles and love gamepads for their ergonomics. Consoles and gamepads won for a reason - accessibility, price and ease of use.

If you're looking for Bethesda / Zenimax to make you another twitch based k&m shooter, you're probably looking in the wrong direction. It's not justifiable to them. That's not where the big market is.

I can sort of understand the ire at putting the name Doom on it, but that's just how marketing works. On the other hand, you're not really entitled to tell them what to call their game. They own the IP. It's up to them.

The original Doom won't go away because of this, and the motivation of the developer/publisher is understandable, so I can't really understand the amount of outrage over this.

@ kp: I do think that the frame of reference that all the complainers have in mind is to a degree unrealistic or from the past. You can't apply your rosy memories of twenty year old games as a reference to what today's video game market should be like. Times have changed, and there are reasons for that. Quake fans aren't the target audience anymore.

There's nothing wrong with console gamers just wanting to have some fun with their buddies. That's actually totally legitimate. And if that is so common that it drives the market, then producers have to react. That's the free market. You can't just have the free market when it suits you. You have to take it lock stock and barrel and sometimes it does things you don't like. (This mostly @scarecrow who once told me how awesome the free market is.)

Fans of twitch shooters for PC have the opportunity of Kickstarting games like Strafe or Retroblazer or Reflex. That's the free market as well. It just seems that these games have a hard time. Their market is a niche that appears to be smaller than many people thought. What many of you seem to want has to be considered a specialty/niche/nostalgia product today.

I do agree with Shambler. Criticizing shit gameplay is OK. Just nostalgia and console hate isn't a good argument and that's 75% of this entire shitstorm. 
But You Don't Understand! 
We dictate what's fun and what isn't! Not the average Joe and his buddies. We know better cause we're old school. They just thinknthey're having fun when really they aren't compared to all the fun they could be having if we had our way! 
Seriously Though 
That was spot on. Not much else to be said about this IMO. Thanks for taking the time to write this down. 
They make games to make money. For this they read their markets.

The steam reviews on the beta indicate they seriously misread one of their markets (it is a market and as has been demonstrated - a valuable one; even if it is smaller than the console market it is far from negligible for the bottom line of the company).

Additionally again the MP is crucial, they can get good sales on SP alone on consoles, on PC not so due to the easy of pirating SP games.

The PC market probably is not asking for a reel oldskool twitch fest a la original Doom but it sure as fuck is not asking for what has been provided! Right or not? 
And to precise I'm not on the nostalgia angle for D4 - I regularly play D2 online and that is fine, I don't need more of that, its great, servers are populated, maps and gamemodes are great and plentiful, its all groovy there :D 
Despite The Flaws Doom May Or May Not Have 
I think we should all take a moment to count our blessings
Spot-on post there. Thread closed imo. 
No, I think that for however shit that version might have been, at least it was honest about what it was. 
You can only carry two guns at a time

any gamepad wielding console kiddie can just pick up the demon spawn and blow everyone away

Are you trying to imply that these are actually good design choices? 
I've made various posts here and in lots of other places.

Doom 4's target audience was the console audience. The design choices of COD loadouts, slow gameplay, XP systems and levelling up, 2 weapons only...

It wouldn't have been difficult for them to look at the source material and think "why was doom great". There are countless videos online which demonstrate this.

Instead they looked at current games and then give it a Doom aesthetic. I'm not shitting on console players or even console games. I own every major console that has been put to market barring the xbox one. I love console games but I simply do not agree that people should cater to console gamers simply because they are the largest market.

If Zenimax want to make a quick buck out of the Doom franchise then that is their business, but PC gamers are a fickle bunch and will gladly divorce themselves from a franchise. Doom 4 will be the first id software game that I will not be buying on launch. I will be waiting to see the user reviews on Steam first (and very likely TotalBiscuits review). 
I always figured id would go down the tubes after selling out to Zenimax. The only question was which pipe they'd take. It's too bad they didn't just sell the ip and shutdown the company while still somewhat in their prime.

To be honest, multiplayer means nothing to me. If this new "Doom" doesn't get good reviews for the single player campaign, I won't be buying it any time soon. Maybe, as with Rage, in a year or so I'll be able to get it for $9 and be pleasantly surprised. 
+1 What Fifth Said 
However, I already bought it and will be playing the eve-living shit out of it on launch day. 
I Give Up On Typing 
goodbye keyboard 
Why Doom & Doom II Are Great Games 
Lessons From Doom
Decisions That Matter
RetroAhoy: Doom

There probably isn't a single person on this forum that hasn't read or seen these, but hey. 
People like what they grey up with, funnily enough.

Kids who grew up with Halo and CoD tend to prefer that style of FPS over oldskool run-at-70-mph twitch shooters. 
Doom 4's target audience was the console audience. The design choices of COD loadouts, slow gameplay, XP systems and levelling up, 2 weapons only...

...are in the 2 out of 6 multiplayer game modes that have been released in the beta, so we shouldn't extrapolate from them to the other 4 nor to the singleplayer game. 
you are correct on that front.

It seems reasonable that what they have revealed so far is very representative of the online experience.

I expect the singleplayer to be more traditionally Doom-like and fortunately for me it's the thing I care about the most. If they screw up the SP then it will be a damn shame. 
Your sarcastic rant actually has a point.
THEY don't know any better.

Imagine a group of dudes (yes, this is sexist example, go with it) who only tried police-station-grade coffee. They would think that this is it, that is how coffee should taste like.

After tasting real deal some of them (manly hairy uber pro ones obviously) would understand that their whole life was a