b) should really have read:

"The entity's .nextthink is less than .ltime + host_frametime(before the time at the end of the frame) in which case ltime is increased only as far as .nextthink (bounded below by 0) "

This would make it clear that ltime does not advance when nextthink <= ltime. 

is there any reason why ltime would run slower than normal time?
i can't really explain it better than that, other than when i watch both ltime and time displayed next to each other (for example, bprinting both every frame), ltime counts up at a slower rate. 

Only thing I can see which might account for it is that sv.time and host_frametime are both double-precision floats. Since ltime is stored in a QC field it only retains the precision of a regular float. In fact, the increment gets cast to a single-precision float before it's added to the single-precision ltime value. So my guess would be that it's a byproduct of the lower level of precision in that calculation. 

i tested a bit more and slow frametimes seem to slow it down a lot? o.0
if i set fitzquake's maxfps to 10, it counts extremely slowly. i don't really understand what's going on here. 

I do have one question, though: What happens first: think or touch?

I totally missed this question first time round, here goes:

For a player:
PlayerPreThink always comes first.
Next is the .think function (for frame animation etc)
Then comes whatever kind of physics the player has, so if there's a collision .touch happens now
Finally PlayerPostThink is run.

If it's a MOVETYPE_BSP, it moves first (and so any .touch and .blocked calls occur), and then calls .think functions after that*.

MOVETYPE_NONE won't create collisions by itself, so it only runs .think. It's worth considering that a MOVETYPE_NONE can still be involved in collisions, and in that case the .touch may be called before or after the think, depending on whether the colliding entity is before or after this one in the list. The same is true for any entity when they are the second party in the collisions.

MOVETYPE_NOCLIP doesn't generate collsions either, it's just .think when it comes to processing.

MOVETYPE_STEP is for monsters, and they have a weird order. If they're free-falling from a jump, then that gets processed first, and any collision there produces a touch before the think. However, most of the time monsters only move during think functions. One of the two navigation builtins are called in the think, which hands control back to the engine for physics to be run on the "step". If it collides, then the touch gets called on top. So the think will begin before any touch, and finish after the touch!

Finally, all the other "projectile" movetypes run .think before moving, and thereby having a chance to .touch anything.

In conclusion, it's a mess! The entity might always be the "other" entity in a collision, so you can't really say concrete stuff about whether the touch will happen before or after a chance to think. I think the list here is still useful though, for knowing when the physics runs. This means you can always be aware of whether an entity has already moved or not while in a think function.


*There is an argument here for rewriting the hipnotic rotator code here. If you make a function which is called from StartFrame which loops through all the blocker entities and sets velocities for them, you have changed their velocity before physics runs on them, so they'll move into place this frame. The current code sets it in the think, which means they're always lagging behind the target for a frame. You would also be able to set .nextthink to (.ltime + framtime * 0.5), and use a doubled velocity to ensure exact motion. 

a little bit more on SOLID_BSP and .velocity

a SOLID_BSP entity won't move unless it's .nextthink is non-zero. it doesn't matter what it's set to, although, obviously if it's less than ltime, it will be set to 0, just as long as it's set. if you set .velocity without setting .nextthink, no movement occurs (although the entity retains .velocity setting). 

preach, could you correct me if i'm wrong?

in post 332, i mention that time seems to more slower on ltime than real time.

say, on your bsp entity, you set:

self.nextthink = self.ltime + 0.01;

to loop a function over and over via .think.

if your framerate was really low, like 10fps. according to what you said above: The entity's .nextthink will occur before .ltime + host_frametime(within this frame) in which case ltime is increased only as far as .nextthink

if time = 0.
one frame goes by at 10fps:

if your nextthink is 0.01, but you are getting 10fps, then .ltime will be set to 0.01 even though real time = 0.1

we get ready for the next frame and set self.nextthink = self.ltime + 0.01; //next frame
.nextthink is 0.02 now.

now more frame at 10fps:

time is 0.2, but .ltime wil only be 0.02.

and so on and so forth.

ltime is only incrementing by 0.01, even though actual time is incrementing by 0.1.

am i getting this right? 

Yeah, that's right. Remember it will also only move for 0.01 seconds per frame, so you need to set its velocity carefully if you are relying on velocity for motion. 

i made accelerating/decelerating movers but i couldn't find an acceptable way to make them accurate.
from what i have seen, it seems the only way to make it 100% accurate would be to externally set velocity via a helper entity. unfortunately, this would nullify the point of .blocked and ltime as a blocked mover wouldn't pause and would risk becoming out of sync.

as such, i've just left the acceleration with ltime and accepted the inaccuracy. it unfortunately means if you are getting really bad frame rate 10-20fps, you will see a marked increase in time for movers to complete their movements.

otoh, maybe if i accepted a lower precision by setting nextthink to ltime + 0.1 (use slower refreshes), it would decrease the disparity between time and ltime...

i'll have to see how that works out i guess. :S 

I think that there is a way to overcome these difficulties without a helper entity, so long as you're happy with a bit of not-really-calculus behind the scenes. You can get a version with one frame lag just by using a few entity fields to store some floats(and the one frame lag could be eliminated using the trick mentioned a few posts above of pushing updates to a mover's velocity during startframe, in order to occur before physics).

The key is to increment one of the variables by frametime in every frame which you are blocked. I'm writing out the details in my notebook currently, but it's the kind of thing that would really be best served with an external page full of diagrams and equation notation rather than a hurried post on this board. Perhaps even some genuine, complete QC code to prove I'm not chatting out my arse. Watch this space... 

well, i will definitely want to see what you are talking about, but bear in mind i'm not that much of a mathematician, so if it's as complicated as you are implying, i probably won't do it. ^_^;; 

Hey Preach, did you receive my email?
I'm rather stuck in the monster toppic. 

Send it again, don't think I have it. 

I ment the Monster thread.
I'll send it again.

http://www.celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=60251&start=396 

.huntt_ime
Set to time + something when the player is in sight, but movement straight for
him is blocked. This causes the monster to use wall following code for
movement direction instead of sighting on the player. (sic)

in ai.qc

is this true? it sounds like a lie. :P 

The only instance of "hunt_time" in the qc source is in the comment about ideal_yaw. I'm guessing it's something they used to do in ai_run. It may have been taken out because movetogoal tries the direct path to the enemy before using the wall following code. This would suppose that originally the function would call walkmove if hunt_time wasn't set, set hunt_time if walkmove returned false, and called movetogoal while hunt_time was active. 

ah that would make sense.
one thing i noticed about the movetogoal code...
it always seemed to me that doom had much better wall following code. quake monsters often get caught in areas when trying to path to the player, but doom monsters quite often turn up in surprising places especially if you watch them in the automap. quake AI seems to 'give up' wall following very early, usually before the wall following has a chance to get around a particular corner or whatever.
mm, that was random. :P 

we should just see how D00M does it,
and port it to,
(_)uake :D
.| 

i wonder if it would be feasible to take the func_togglewall and do this:

rename it to func_monsterclip
make it non-solid
movetogoal -> movetogoal_builtin
and then we make a new movetogoal that loops through all func_monsterclips, makes them solid, called the movetogoal_builtin and then afterwards, makes all the func_monsterclips nonsolid again. 

ran a little test.
instead of a generic monsterclip, i created a method to get larger bbox monsters to move correctly.

you essentially build your 'hull3' out of brushes and turn the entire thing into a single func_clipModel, and then you tie that clipModel to the monster you want to run collision with via clipModel->targetname editor key fields.
this could actually work because it won't impede smaller bbox monsters (that can use normal hull1/2 collision) since the clipModel is only every solid during that single monster's walk frame... 

Nice, I'd really like to see some larger monsters or bosses/minibosses (that can actually move) in quake. This could be a piece of that puzzle. 

yeah, works pretty decent, but of course it imposes some limitations.

you need to 'clip' any area where the monster will be, of course, and that means you have to visualize the hull expansion yourself and implement it.

also, currently how i do it is to use the same method that hipnotic did for the func_togglewall and that is to just add '8000 8000 8000' to the origin when you want to turn it off, and then subtract the same vector when you want it on.
i don't know how big a deal it is if you had a generic monsterclip entity that EVERY monster in the map would have to toggle back and forth every animation frame. that could be pretty brutal.
it's probably better to somehow localize monster clips so only the monsters most likely to actually touch them will be toggling them (hence why i opted for a clipModel->targetname method instead of just putting it in walkmove and movetogoal). (large bbox monsters use a special wrapper for ai_walk and ai_run). 

quake seems to use start the hull2 bbox from the bottom left (mins) of the monster.

this means that if you use a bbox of size (for example) '-128 -128 -24' - '128 128 64' only the mins up to '-64 -64 64' is used when checking collision.

i thought that quake would start the hull2 size from the center of the monster, but this is not the case.

this creates a problem now because collision is still messed up.

if we resize the monster to hull2, call movetogoal and resize back to the new hull size, collision against the world (and func_clipModels) is fine, but the monster is now able to walk inside the player and other monsters.

i'll have to put more thought into this, i guess... 

Wait, how do shub and chthon work? They have large (stationery) bboxes and players seem to collide against them correctly. 

yeah, the collision of other bboxes is fine.
it's the collision against the world that is messed up.

and that's the big problem:
movetogoal will function correctly vs other bboxes if you set the bbox correctly. 256x256x128 or whatever.

movetogoal will function incorrectly vs world when bbox is set to 256x256x128.

if you set bbox to standard hull2 size before movetogoal and reset to 256x256x128 after, monster will move inside player.

what i've done so far is left the bbox at 256x256x128 and simply 'offset' the func_clipModel so that sides that the mins hits are smaller than sides that the maxs hits.
kind of hard to explain, when i figure everything out, i'll probably make a blog post about it with pictures to explain it properly.

also, another interesting (and annoying) side effect: because of the way the standard ai_run code is sandwiched between func_clipModel toggles such that the clipModel is active when ai_run is called, things like the visible() function fail if the player is inside the clipModel since visible uses a traceline to determine if the monster can see it (and since the clipModel is solid during that period, the trace hits the clipModel and determines the player is not visible).