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Mapping Help
This is the place to ask about mapping problems, techniques, and bug fixing, and pretty much anything else you want to do in the level editor.

For questions about coding, check out the Coding Help thread: http://www.celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=60097
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Nt 
Thanks, Willem - that's it: "WARNING: No valid wadfiles in worldmodel" from qbsp.

How can I get qbsp to find the right wads?

(I'm on Vista, which might be part of the problem.) 
#8751 Ijed 
spike's version, right
and where can I find his site? 
Ask Jonas 
I think he's on inside3d but I've never actually talked to him. 
LTH 
Uhm, edit worldspawn in WC or a text editor and add "wad" "..."? 
Negke 
It means that worldspawn will point onto a single wad file... But unfortunately, when you use different textures from different wad files, you will have to concatenate it before it works... hence more work...

Other solutions is to use a proper editor: QuArK owns this very well you know.. I guess it is the same for other editors ;)

So rather than editing the worlspawn, I would suggest to run the compiling processes from the editor itself, that may embed the proper wad generation with the necessary textures... safiest way to go I think ;) 
No. 
Editing the field manually, you can still have it point to multiple wads. And WC was one of the first editors to support this.
I assume the textures show correctly in the editor, so what if it's indeed some Vista issue? Maybe simplifying the paths could help. 
Negke 
Dunno actually, I've never tested such feature, manually at least... I'd rather prefer to stick to something I'm sure it is working ;) 
Heh 
One thing is very bad about Quark's texture handline though. It re-renders all the textures each time you open the texture browser. And it does not let you properly use it during that. This means that you will have to wait several seconds (for bigger wads) until you can select a texture. 
 
Spirit put file links... mine is fast... 
 
and i always have lots of wads instaled! 
Hmm 
key "wad", value "wad1.wad;wad2.wad" in worldspawn, put all the wad files in the same folder as the .map/compilers. Like negke said, it'll eliminate the possibility of it being misread paths...

(And manually specifying wads is a breeze compared to using an editor that has features you require missing (or has undocumented 'features' you'd rather avoid ;) 
Hmm 
(sigh) 
What is with me and the slow portals all the time... 
 
Thanks for the help. Seems like I can add a "wad" key but the value field isn't long enough to fit the path of more than one wad! Even so, the .map file gets generated with another (presumably worldcraft-generated) wad key, with all of the .hlwads in it, which is clearly wrong.

So how can I get worldcraft to generate the correct .wad names instead of using .hlwad...? anyone? 
WC3.3? 
Text editor then. No idea how to change it permanently. 
LTH 
In WC go to Tools\Options\Textures Tab and add the wad files you need. They will show up in the map files automaticaly. Compile should work without problems. Maybe you have too long paths to the wads also. 
 
This is really dumb - I've had exactly the same setup working perfectly well before.

Ankh - I'm using WC3.3, so I have to specify .hlwad files in it - which are obviously incompatible with Quake. I thought that the quake adapter did some magic so that at compile time it would re-insert the correct wads, but apparently not (or at least, not in my case). 
It Doesn't 
Because it's pretty direct what happens with WC.

But it's fucking irritating when things don't work as they should.

You should have a folder inside WC called textures with all your wads in there. Inside the editor you go to tools/textures and add the wads that are inside that folder manually.

And you're good.

Tech support isn't easy across a forum - but that should set you right.

The adapter does nothing magical, it's just a collection of tools - most of the legwork is still yours, so patience and experimentation is needed. 
Also 
Quake does accept HLWAD - but worldcraft 3.3 doesn't accept wad. It's a big hack, but it does work, at leaast until the tex conversion tool refuses to do the business. 
Is Full Vis Still Necessary ? 
I'm still working on my map, but when I run it true the Fitz or aguirRe engine with a fast vis only, it runs smooth as can be. Is full vis still necessary in this day and age ?

Another thing, if you get the "Excessive static entities" warning and just ignore it, do you get any real problems ? I don't care about warnings, but are there any consequences ? 
 
it's a choice you make. if you go over limits and get warnings in fitzquake, then you have to accept that it won't run in some engines.

as for full vis, my opinion is that it's just sloppy not to full vis. it's free performance, since not everyone has a monster machine and the quake engine becomes a lot less efficient at drawing stuff. the performance loss is not linear. 
 
I agree. It's a basic level designer skill to be able to seal your map and get a good VIS. And necros is right that it's not a linear thing - without a VIS, you're drawing the entire level with tons of extra lightmaps to boot. 
 
OK, thanks.
I thought it only had to do with speed, so gameplay doesn't become choppy. 
 
Speed is a large part of the reason but there are other concerns, yeah. 
Also 
There's lots of ways to build a map where full vis doesn't have to take weeks. Level of brush detail, turning details into func_walls, making LOS blocking 'doughnut corridors' putting clip brushes inside small holes and so on.

Its finnicky stuff to do, but it makes the map very easy to compile - which is important for betatesting, since not everyone has a powerful machine as mentioned. Some might be emulating in Wine or have other issues.

My Quake machine will have trouble on non-fullvised maps, for example - a decent incentive to keep my maps well built. 
 
"putting clip brushes inside small holes and so on. "

I don't see how this would improve VIS times. Clip is a collision thing while VIS looks at the rendering side of things, right? If you meant plugging up holes with solid brushes then, yes, that would help... 
Too Many Static Entities Is A Bad Thing 
the consequence is that some static entities wont appear in game (like torches and stuff)

AguirRe's engine should tell you how many static entities you have and what the limit is (256 IIRC)

Take some out and replace them with other light sources (i.e. light textures) 
Ok 
Not vis help, but general good building of the map.

For example putting a crate in the centre of the room on the floor or putting a crate in the centre of the room floating 2 units above the floor.

The second one is better (and invisible to the player) because it causes less subdivisions, which also helps compile time. 
No. Wrong. Don't Do This. 
 
Nevermind. I'm Wrong. But It's Still Dumb. And Makes Extra Portals. 
 
Hmm 
As CZG so eloquently explained, while this will indeed reduce subdivisions of the floor, the saving in VIS time/polycounts will be negligble when compared to the creation of many tiny, tiny vis portals under the crate (which'll slow down you VIS a fair chunk, especially if done with every crate in a level (there should be as many as possible)) 
Hm 
Fair point - I'll go back to my cave now. 
 
It's not dumb. It can lower the polycount considerably (depending on the area) and I doubt a few additional tiny portals will slow down VIS "a fair chunk." There's a more definite risk of ugly shadows beneath/around the crates, though.

However, speaking of poor VIS design: I'm now (again) stuck at a slow portal with no progress for a full week. 
Nasty 
 
 
found something interesting out about the hipnotic rotating stuff.

had never noticed this before, but you can attach ANY entity to a func_rotating_*

as long as the entity's targetname matches the target field of the func_rotating_*, that entity's origin will be continuously updated to match the position and angles of the rotater. i haven't tried, but i suspect it may not work with bmodels because of the way quake handles those, but point entities (even monsters o.0) work.

i was able to build a func_rotating_train which had torches attached to it as it moved about.

the effect is kind of ruined if the rotater actually does rotate though, because the angles of the child entities aren't updated, only their positions. 
 
clip brushes would help with BSP times as it's already telling BSP what areas to not put hulls. Some of the best ways to avoid high vis times is to avoid small brushes, huge open areas, and overly complex geometry (which is boring to me.)

I've never really understood the entire fretting about vis time other than your giving up use of your machine while vis takes place. Why should it matter if it takes 1 hour or 1 day as long as the map has good game play, is built properly, and looks great?

Most people playing these maps aren't wondering how long it took to Vis. They're having fun hopefully. 
Dear Programmers: 
Detail brushes have existed in Quake (1) for a long time.

http://quest-ed.sourceforge.net/files/mapc/qutils_2_src.zip
http://quake.chaoticbox.com/downloads/equakeutils.sit

It's a pity they've never been incorporated into more modern compilers, because they really do work to cut down vis times. I used pOx's eUtils quite a bit back in the dark days of mac quake editing. They even have nifty features the Quest tools don't, like non-solid detail brushes. So you can have your func_walls and func_illusionaries, but they still cast shadows etc. 
AEnoch 
The problem is that, these days, people are making maps that don't so much take days to fullvis as weeks.

It wouldn't be so bad if this trend wasn't utterly unnecessary... 
No Q1 Map 
I've ever made has taken more than ~5 hours to compile.

Someone's about to post a warp map compile of 6 hours to prove me a liar.

Remember that this is a mapping forum, on the mapping help thread - this is the place where we complain about vis times. 
Yeah, But ... 
In reaction to post #8797 posted by Lardarse:

Yeah, but if someone was to come up with a decent map, about ID sized, who would take notice ?

If you look at the work of people like Ijed, Tronyn, CZG, Necros, Kona and Kell(to name a few of the best ever), it's almost all huge. And I like it.

ID's Quake was great, but what these people have made is so much better. Better even than all the crap games you can buy in the stores these days. Works of art that inspire people like me to try and come close to, even without having all the knowledge that they've got. 
 
The size of the map shouldn't matter though. Proper construction and respecting the engine should result in reasonable VIS times. If you build a gigantic football field with bleachers, well, yeah, that will take forever to VIS but in my mind that isn't proper construction.

You can build a large map and still have VIS be reasonable.

Having said that, my current map is going to be a bastard once it's sealed. I've committed a lot of VIS sins and I know the VIS gods will punish me for it. 
 
"Yeah, but if someone was to come up with a decent map, about ID sized, who would take notice ? "

A map the size of an id1 map that was nicely detailed and well put together would be well received I think. You couldn't duplicate the originals and get away with it anymore but that size of map isn't necessarily a problem, IMO. 
Fuck Limitations... 
... do whatever you think is cool... And you end up in a 2 month fullvis map :P 
 
I dunno. I guess I'm of the mind that you have to keep evaluating your 'return on investment'. A map that takes 2 months to VIS isn't necessarily 60 times better than a map that takes a day. It may just be built wrong. 
Lack Of Skill / Knowledge 
I agree that lack of skill or knowledge is the bottleneck for people who start mapping. Even people who have been doing it for years could be making things more difficult for themselves without them ever knowing. That's why it is a shame that so many websites dedicated to map making are disappearing. 
 
ID's Quake was great, but what these people have made is so much better
bear in mind that id's levels was made ~95/96, do you remember, any custom levels of such quality those years? 
I'm With JPL 
If I build a map and people enjoy it, that's my return on investment (your pleasure is my pleasure, in a non-kinky way). I map for fun, not for money. My computer is not a 'resource', it's a hobby.

Sixty hour vis times is fine by me, I'll be doing plenty of other things in the foreground. So, time is not the issue: impatience might be. 
 
*shrug* Sure, to each his own. I obviously map for fun -- why else would I be making Quake maps? There's no money in it. 
Well 
I'm working on id1 remixes now and I find that everything gets slightly bigger - the originals feel very crampt by todays standards.

I tend to add lots more areas as well - my e3m3 is now around twoce the size but started off with a similar layout. I add the extra stuff just because it's fun to have.

A load of times in the id1 maps I'll come up to a dead end or a room just begging for expansion, and can't stop myself. Because it's fun :)

Still fullvising in under an hour in the above example. 
 
Haha, of course, I get the map sealed and a full VIS takes 3 minutes. WTF? 
See? You Got All Worked Up Over Nothing 
 
 
if a trigger_multiple killtarget's itself, is that the same as a remove() in a touch function? o.o 
Necros: 
killtarget is better because it sets the think function to SUB_Remove, which happens safely in the next think frame. If you remove() in a touch function it happens immediately, which could screw up the linked list of edicts, which can crash the engine. 
 
thanks for explaining the difference :)

now an even weirder question:

is it ok to build outside the 4096 boundaries if the player is never supposed to get there?

i know from past experience that the visual component of the map will be visible if it's outside the 4096 cube. the only thing that's bad is that the moment the player's pov passes outside, he seems to 'loop' back to the other side.

but the actual collision will still be correct, it just looks as if you're on the other side of the map.

so if i built a sort of skybox (brushbox? o.0) outside the 4096 as pure decoration and clipped the boundaries of the playable area, would it break anything? i've never tried making a full map with a lot of brushwork outside the boundaries, just usually it's a few stray brushes because i was careless. :P 
Necros: 
it's something i've thought of doing too -- should work, as long as the player or entities or anything else but world brushes stay inside teh bounds (e.g. if you shoot a rocket out past the bounds, it will look pretty funny.

If entities/effects/sounds etc go outside the bounds, the only issue really is that they will be rendered in the wrong place. Server-side physics and movement and and stuff will still work fine.

Anyway, you could make a pretty cool horizon/vista out past the bounds, like a cityscape or mountains or whatever. 
 
excellent! i wanted to make sure there weren't any kind of hidden engine glitches that would crop up.
there's still maybe a matter with vis.exe calculations? i don't know if it cares or not whether the pvs' it's calculating are within any boundaries or not. 
Necros: 
well, it's fairly untested ground, so there are no guarantees, but as far as i know, the only thing enforcing a +-4096 limit is the network protocol, so everything else should theoretically work with the larger space. 
 
well, i decided to try it out, so i guess we'll see. o.o

i guess the good thing about it being purely decorative is that if it doesn't work, it's just a matter of deleting it without impacting gameplay. 
 
So if you go beyond the 4096 boundary do you come out the other side like in Pac-Man? 
Seems 
to be the case unless there are special engines used or summat. 
Thought 
the squad shadow by making an object above the sky is the same issue. 
Aenoch: 
Yes, but it's a purely visual thing, your actual location on the server does not wrap around -- just the coordinates sent to the client. 
 
Are you sure about that? If you jump off an unsealed level and loop a few times, you can still land on the level itself and have proper collision which would imply that you are, in fact, wrapping around in terms of your coordinates... 
Dimensions / Metrics ... 
Hi,

Does anyone have any information on the metrics / dimensions used for the Quake world ?

I'd like to understand what each unit represents and how big fixed size entities are, in terms of real world application.

Thanks

-Mic 
 
I've heard it's 8 Quake units is a foot, but I don't know for sure. I just fool around until it looks right. 
Willem ... 
It was actually ToeTag that prompted this question as I was wondering what size the grid squares represented and how you knew what size to draw the 'fixed-size' entities etc

-Mic 
8 Units = 1 Foot ... 
Yep, just found confirmation on this page ...

http://toolz.nexuizninjaz.com/shader/shader/section2.htm

Unders the measurements section.

Will now work to this scale.

Thanks

-Mic 
 
Well, the entity sizes are specified in the .QC files and the models and things that are read in are automatically scaled correctly since the entire editor runs in Quake coordinate space. 
Willem ... 
Thanks for pointing me to the .qc files ... that'll come in handy.

You see that's where I get confused, you said above 'I just fool around until it looks right' but now you say 'models and things that are read in are automatically scaled correctly since the entire editor runs in Quake coordinate space' so in order for that to happen you must use some sort of measure/unit size ?

-Mic 
 
It's a 1:1 mapping. 1 unit inside of a model file is 1 grid unit. That doesn't relate to the real world, it's just how it's mapped within the editor. I use the same scale as Quake which, internally, is 1 unit is 1 grid unit. 
Willem ... 
Ahhh ... now it makes sense. Thanks for clearing that up.

-Mic 
It'sa Perception Thing 
8 units = 1 foot doesn't literally translate. The player is 56 units which would equal 7 feet, and can jump 32 units which would be 4 feet.

Even then if you create a room 80 X 80 and spawn in it, it doesn't 'feel' like a 10' x 10' room. 
So Probably About 10 Units Per Foot Then :P 
 
Hmm 
Indeed, if you're asking what I think you are then the answer is 'it's irrelevant'.

The units in Quake don't really translate that well into 'real' units of measurement. It's just an arbitary unit. What you seem to want to know is standard sizes, in which case;

128 units is standard for a medium/small corridor width. It's also the standard height of a floor/storey (ie, there'll be 128 units from floor to ceiling).

64 units is a thin corridor or a large crate.

16 units is the height of a step.

Of course, a lot of these, such as floor height/corridor width can be expanded/contracted depending on the size of room wanted, I'd suggest finding the source files for some maps and having a look at the scale of them in editor (I know Vondur releases all of his, as do various other mappers...) 
Look At Textures 
Also you can determine in game by some of the textures used the size of a room since most textures are either 64 or 128, unless they were scaled. 
AEnoch ... 
I think in terms of approximation, 1 foot equalling 8 units is about right.

7ft for the player doesn't sound to outlandish. Dolph Lundgren stands about 6ft 6in and I would have expected the player to be about the same physique as him.

And I would also expect someone of this physique to be able to jump about 4 feet.

-Mic 
SketchUp Converter ... 
The reason I'm asking for this is because I'm currently working on an .skp (Google SketchUp) -> .map converter, but the maps when loaded after conversion are too small because SU works in inches & feet and 1 foot doesn't map to 1 Quake unit. Therefore I need some sort of scale to work with.

-Mic 
Re: Willem + Looping 
If you jump off an unsealed level and loop a few times, you can still land on the level itself and have proper collision

this actually isn't the case. if you loop around, the geometry is drawn as if you had looped, but everything is non solid and monsters cannot attack you, even though they look as if they are able to.
any geometry that goes beyond the boundary though, will be solid to you when you loop over. but it won't be visible.

it's like the client is running on floats but the server is running with doubles. 
Re Units 
maybe this is for hl/hl2, but i believe they do 1 unit = 1 inch which works out good for like stair heights and such, but i think the quake player is shorter than the hl2 player. 
Quake Guy 
even shrter than the q2 guy 
 
necros

Oh yeah? Weird, I could swear I remember doing that but maybe I never actually tried it. 
 
it's like the client is running on floats but the server is running with doubles.

Literally, the server is using floats and the nework protocol sends them as 16-bit fixed-point numbers, with 13 bits for the integer part, and 3 bits for the fractional part (so the smallest representable difference is 1/8 of a unit, and the largest possible value is 4095.875) The client converts them back into floats, but of course you've already lost the extra range at that point. 
Also: 
you can see this 1/8 thing if you stand on a slope (like the beginning of e1m1) and zoom in on the wall nearby. As you slowly slide, your view ratchets forwards and downwards in noticable increments.

When working on protocol 666, i tried various techniques to add range to the coordinate system without increasing packet size. They were all very complicated and still made packets bigger. The simplest is just to always send floats, but this makes packets much bigger and I didn't want to pollute the protocol that way (as it is now, the packet sizes are about the same as 15 until you need to send special data like alpha, 2-byte modelindex, etc.)

I still have plans to support this in the future, I just wanted to get a functional version out and that requires locking down the feature set at some point.

The packet size limit is the toughest part, and there's not much I can do about it (but I should add a cvar so you can attempt larger packets on a LAN, which might have higher MTU than the internet at large.) 
 
angles are another thing where the precision is incredibly low.

the hanging corpses that slowly rotate in quoth are animated in the mdl because the engine's angles round to like, nearest 5/360th instead of nearest 1/360th degree. when you start doing rotating brushes, and the brushes are large (or are placed far from the origin) it can get incredibly ugly with this gigantic gaps between rotations.

it would be nice to beef up whatever handles angles if possible. 
Necros: 
protocol 666 does have high precision client angles (so aiming your gun is accurate) but not on rotations for entities.

I noticed the problem with hanging corpses but I thought the rotation was a model animation (so they could be static ents) rather than entity rotation. I guess that's a good feature to add to the next protocol.

Though, It seems like something that mappers/modders should avoid relying on, otherwise you'll have the huge ugly bmodel rotations you talk about happening in all other stock engines. I had this problem with a rotate train in rubicon2 and the fix was to spawn it near the world origin. 
Monster Action Measures 
maximum distance a player can jump without falling into water, lava, or traps
225 units

maximum distance a player can jump straight up and get up to another object:
42.5 units

maximum distance a player can fall and not be injured:
275 units

minimum gap in the floor spacing, slatted bridge or floating squares of lava:
35 units

maximum height that a step can be before a player must jump:
17 units 
Units ? 
What is a unit ?
I always have trouble making lifts go the right distance, most of it I guess and then adjust.
When you speak of units, how do they relate to the grid in Worldcraft ? 
 
(makes "shoot myself in the head signal")

FFS, its just been repeatedly explained not a couple of posts previously (like yesterday)

1:1, one grid unit = 1 unit, one 1:1-texture-pixel 
More On Real World Unit Size ... 
After researching this more, I have come across the Quake Editing Primer at ...

http://gamers.org/dEngine/quake/QDP/QPrimer.html

... which suggests 1 Quake unit is about 3cm or 1 foot is approx 10 Quake units.

This seems to make more sense now, especially with what others posters have suggested above.

The only thing that still puzzles me is the standard height of a step being 16 units. At 8 units equalling 1 foot, 16 units or 2 foot is far to high I feel, and although 1.6 foot (using 10 units per foot) is getting nearer the mark, I feel this is still too high.

5 ft 6 for the player size, and an 80 x 80 room equalling 8ft x 8ft rather than 10ft by 10ft perhaps seems more reasonable.

What do you guys think ?

-Mic 
More ... 
It also suggests that vertical and horizontal scales are different ...

Vertically : 1 unit = 3cm, 10 units = 1 ft
Horizontally: 1 unit = 2cm, 16 units = 1 ft

-Mic 
Don't Take It Too Seriously 
I always had the impression 64 units roughly corresponded to 1 meter. Then 16 unit steps would be about 20-25cm which kind of makes sense for the world. The scale for entities is totally different, though.

In the end, it's no use translating RL scale to Quake units - the dimensions of the environment isn't determined by logic, just by the textures. 
<- Face It 
The scale in Quake is shot: a 16 unit step/stair just doesn't look right with a player model next to it and larger monsters look ridiculously small when viewed from above. Go with what feels right and don't get too caught up in the unit conversions. 
 
" the dimensions of the environment isn't determined by logic, just by the textures."

^^ This. Just work with it until it feels right. 
Like I Said 
It's a matter of perception. Do what looks/feels right, and adjust from there. 
It Is Relative.... 
... to players size, that is 16 units tall if I remember well :) 
To Add Just A Bit More... 
When you're dealing with dimensions/proportions in a game engine, you're almost always going to have problems if you try to rely on exact conversion numbers and translation of stuff directly from the Real World.

In FP games in particular, the camera height and FOV are going to differ at least a bit (and often significantly) from what you're used to seeing in real life, so some things will feel right and some won't.

And then there's the problem of stuff being on a small flat screen, rather than actually being in front of you... 
Btw 
there is a limit after all to how far out you can build. it appears to be 8192 (doubles?) where, anything after that just doesn't draw. 
Necros: 
Hmm, I guess there are probably some client functions that assume the original bounds. For example:

- the far clipping plane

- the skybox size

- the trace vector used to light entities based on floor lighting (was 2000 units in original quake, now 8192 in fitzquake) 
 
you guys ever go back and play some of your really old stuff?
i was playing nesp09 and i discovered my lame sense of humour hasn't changed at all. 
 
i guess what i was really driving at was: do you enjoy your own maps after sufficient time has passed that some or most of it is almost like new? 
 
I play mines from time to time just to remenbered how noob I was and still :)

Yes I like to play then -:) and I love even more to play your maps necros ;)

ne_lend is my favorit map ever, i love the use of the nails in the map, very fast and fun. I played this map many many times... doesn�t look Quoth at all because is real fast. 
 
Like when you told me it wasn't possible to use the second (light brown) Polyp skin in Quoth while it actually is? Where we could have been now... 
 
I've replayed my speedmaps recently. Some are better than I thought, and most are much worse. Pretty much all of them are ridiclously hard - 60 monsters in such small maps, what was I thinking). And the humor in some of them is beyond lame, yeah.

The most obvious thing going on when playing one's old maps is realizing their shortcomings, like Trinca said, and how one would build it differently. 
 
I also think that the fact that you guys play others games help a lot in inspiration!

In my case i dont play others games because of my very limited time :\ i wish i had more time to play others games and map more :\

But in the other hand i�m very glad of my life, i love my kids and my wife ;)

I will keep mapping for Quake but this year and next will be hard for me to release anything, only speedmaps... full map i dont have the time and the will. 
Rather 
joyfully playing my own map again then seeing it quoted by someone who HAS to do the job. 
WC/Hammer 
Has anyone gotten Wordcraft/Hammer to run well on Linux? 
It's Difficult Enough 
Getting it to run on windows - no joke.

It's got a very nice interface but if you're looking for editors I'd suggest going for another one, maybe QuArK. Which is multiplatform AFAIK. 
 
It is not and it is an editor that makes it too easy to screw up (and likes to do that by itself just to annoy you). 
WC 
I've had no problems with it on windows. I know Radiant works on Linux but I've been using WC for years and it's what I'm comfortable with.

I have Quark but it runs slower than WC. I'm just wondering as I'm looking to switch to linux. 
Fair Enough 
I'm still looking for a solution to the 'no 3d selection' issue - There are dll's that can be used but they screw up the texture rendering. 
 
Radiant and Quest run natively under Linux.

Several others run under wine (pretty well actually), if that floats your boat.

I'll learn Radiant soon anyway. 
I'm A Few Posts Late But 
I fucking love replaying 90% of my old speed maps. I never get tired of them, and I don't look at them critically (probably because I haven't improved much, if at all). 
Argh, This Is Taking On JPLian Dimensions 
Full: 75.01%, Elapsed:307h 39m, Left:482h 54m, Total:790h 33m, 38% 
Hm 
Is it really worth the full vis? After all the map is very open. 
I Think It Is 
It'll still have an extremly high polycount, but even if the fullvis can only lower it slightly, it'll be worth it. 2000 is better than 4000. 
 
your computer will burn :|

make a backup of everything NOWWWWWW 
 
I wonder what the magic breaking point is for VIS. My latest map has gotten larger and is still VIS'ing in under 5 minutes. It has one huge room in it with lots of detail but even that doesn't seem to daunt VIS... 
 
It scales up exponentially. A single room (how huge is huge in Quake terms) might work, but if most or all geometry is inside a single volume like in a space map, it creates a multitude of portals. There's one for every little edge and slope and all they also affect each other.

http://negke.quaddicted.com/images/coag_prt1.jpg
http://negke.quaddicted.com/images/coag_prt2.jpg

Note the portal jungle in the upper half. 
 
CDA seems near the magic breaking point, if anything.

That suggests if your map is one large sandbox with all structures open to it, and some triangle mesh etc perhaps, you might have good chances. 
Negke 
wow, just saw those numbers. You love pain, right. 
Uhm 
get the urge to leave... 
Just Give It A Few Years 
Multithreaded VIS on 8-core Nehalems will make this problem pretty much go away. Remember, id had to use the most badass Alpha hardware available in '96 to compile their Quake maps.

or you know, detail brushes. 
 
or use Doom 3, no more vis. 
 
yeah, whatever you say about the lighting, the visibility system in doom3 is badass. 
Understanding VIS 
What system resources uses Vis anyway ?
Does it help to have lots of memory and a good processor or could you just as well run it on a Pentium 1 from the old Quake days ? 
VIS 
VIS process needs memory and a fast processor to limit its runtime.
It is based onto a recursive algorithm (a kind of "turtle" algorithm)... the faster the CPU will be, the less consuming the VIS runtime will be.. Having GBs of RAM will not help, as I don't think the process needs it... though...
But in anyway, VIS process is the evil one in the Quake map building flow :( 
 
Also, VIS benefits greatly from multithreading since each leaf can be processed independently of each other (which is how id ran theirs on their Alpha machines). I've enabled this in my Mac version of the tool but I don't think any Windows versions exist like that. 
Willem 
I'm not exactly sure bout the implementation, but it seems it could be faster with multi core processor indeed.
I already discussed this topic with aguirRe, and he told me that ID indeed had their first VIS process running onto multicore Unix machine, but it has never been ported to Windows in this way: Window VIS tools are single CPU only, and AFAIK.. unless somebody has a specific tool on his own ;) 
 
The code is in there - it's just #ifdef'd out. All a Windows programmer would have to do is define "_alpha" (or whatever the symbol) is in preprocessor symbols of their compiler and fix the errors that spit out. It was really pretty simple on Mac.

I've not done much multithreading on Windows so I can't say how closely the structures and such relate to what id wrote on their Unix machine but it can't be more than a few hours of hunting around some documentation to find equivalents. 
So Willem... 
...care to do me a little favor? 
 
Haha ... I might take a stab at it. Which VIS do people use? Point me at some source code and I'll take a crack at it this weekend but no promises... 
BJP's Of Course 
I didn't mean compiling the vis tool, though! 
 
negke already in 90% 
Not Quite 
Full: 76.65%, Elapsed:359h 37m, Left:885h 2m, Total:1244h 39m, 28% 
 
negke

Oh, well, the best solution long term would be to get a Windows version with multithreading working. I could run it for you, yes, but that's painful. :P

To be clear, this?

http://user.tninet.se/~xir870k/visbjp.zip 
Yep 
 
Willem 
somebody provided be a vis tool that is supposed to run 40% faster than Id's original one... but I never tested it as I did not trust the guy that much: anyone who wants to benchmark it can send me an email: I'll provide the stuf.... at your own risk :P 
Forgot To Mention... 
... I also have the source... 
 
Can someone hook me up with a .PRT and a matching .BSP file so I can run some VIS debugging? 
PRT Files... 
...you can generate them yourself from the BSP. Use for example BspInfo (delivered with aguirRe's visbjp suite) and the -prt flag. 
 
Ha! So you can, awesome. Thanks! 
Go Willem! 
 
OK, This Might Work... 
...but it comes with zero assurances of it actually working or not corrupting data. :P

I took some of my lunch hour today to see if this could be done quickly.

http://files.getdropbox.com/u/161473/Vis.zip

That should be a multi-threaded version of BJP VIS. When you run it, you'll see some additional text appear like:

"Using X threads."

The X will be however many cores/processors you have in your machine.

The percentage and progres stuff is all kinds of messed up and I don't have time to fix it today - lunch time is over! But I'll take a look at that in the future once the basics are nailed down.

Anyway, try it, run some side by side timings and let me know if I'm crazy or if this actually works.

The best way to see it work is to start up your Task Manager and look at the processor activity. All of your cores/processors should be pegged at 100% when this is running.

Thanks! 
 
swapping to your vis for all my vising needs. i'm seeing 100% cpu usage, so it appears to be working fine. i'll let you know if anything weird happens.

you are currently on my list of people made of awesomeness for this, btw. ^_^

damn, i wish i had a quad core though. :( 
 
The part that scares me is if the map will load into Quake when it's done. That's something I can't test here. :) Let me know, plz! 
Willem 
Despite it may load, it also can generates HOMs and leaks.... wait and see :P 
 
I don't see why it shouldn't load into Quake. After all, all you changed was the resource management. The actual vis calculation and state file handling remains untouched.
I'm running a test at the moment. One hour of willemvis vs one hour of regular (single-threaded) vis. The time estimations would help here, but whatever. No idea if there's much of a gain. I don't have a real multicore machine, just one of those p4-hyperthreading dudes (I was always suspicious about this being a possible bottleneck). 
 
How many threads does it say you're using? If it's more than 1, you should see SOME improvement. 
OK, I Think I Fixed The Time Estimates And Percentages... 
I also renamed the EXE for easier use.

http://files.getdropbox.com/u/161473/WVis.zip

Give that a shot if you want the time estimates to be useful. 
Will Test This For Future Builds 
 
 
So I guess now, whoever has the most cores/processors on their machine needs to become a VIS mule for the group. :P 
 
Yes, there's definitely some improvement (with 2 threads) - I'd say it's at least 40% faster. I was so dumb as to accidentally close the window just now, so I can't tell the exact difference, unfortunately. But still, your version is useful for running at night when there're no other programs running beside vis. Thanks for offerning your lunch break. 
Uh 
offering the sacrificing 
 
well, i've been using it all day with fast vising. it is faster, but it's hard to tell just how much without doing a proper full vis.

i have a second map that's in the final stage so i'll do a couple of test runs of full -level 4 vising on it, one with and one without multithreading for a proper comparison, but assuming there isn't a fundamental difference in what vis is doing in -fast vs without -fast, i'd say it's creating .bsp files that are perfectly fine. :) 
Awfull 
how you managed to improve this blocking up tool, Willem!
If I count all vis time I made since I started mapping in '97 I could have learned C+ and have dived into it... too late I guess. 
 
"i'd say it's creating .bsp files that are perfectly fine. "

Sweet! i guess it's good to go then. 
Er...... 
link is 404? 
 
Sorry, the file moved. I've made it permanent here:

http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/tools/windows/misc/WVis.zip 
Thanks Willem 
2 Core AMD works!!!
Test map 60 sec vis down to about 36 sec.

Base vis is crazy fast 
Looks Good 
It looks like the WVis times are rounded to the nearest minute?

This was on a Core2Duo E6850 (3 GHz).

Original VIS run:

---- Vis 2.31 ---- Modified by Bengt Jardrup

File: c:\quake\id1\maps\wish16.bsp
2929 portalleafs
8356 numportals
State file out of date, will be overwritten
testlevel = 4
ambient sky disabled

average leafs visible: 192
max leafs visible: 646 near (-608 352 592)
c_chains: 39836161
visdatasize: 219 kb compressed from 1049 kb

Elapsed time : 6:52

WVis run:

---- WVis 2.31 ----
Modified by Bengt Jardrup
Multithreading enabled by Willem

File: c:\quake\id1\maps\wish16.bsp
2929 portalleafs
8356 numportals
State file out of date, will be overwritten
testlevel = 4
ambient sky disabled

Using 2 threads.


average leafs visible: 192
max leafs visible: 646 near (-608 352 592)
c_chains: 39880904
visdatasize: 219 kb compressed from 1049 kb

Elapsed time : 3:00

I just did this, so I haven't actually looked at the map in the game. If I see any problems I'll post them.

The only difference in the log is the c_chains (no idea if that's important). I ran the full BSP, Light, Vis each time with no change to the actual .map file 
C_chain 
I guess this is the recursive linkage made in between volumes. As in bsp process there's a volume expansion process that defines where are each faces / leafs, I think it is almost the same for vis process except the tools creates a chained list of volume in order to process them recursively (i.e from this volume, process the faces, and check what are the others visible volume not in the list, etc...) and determine which volumes (and then number of faces to render per volume) are visible from a given position.
This is how I understood the system in very "rough" way.. and maybe I'm wrong :P 
 
Yeah, I'll check the rounding but I didn't really change anything there that I can think of. Hmm... 
Wow ! 
Progress in Quake map building, after all these years ! Nice work !

Quick question about something else:

Does it really make a lot of difference if you make your curves just by cutting them with a circle, or if you use the vector manipulation to make them more or less the same size and triangles ? If anyone has some more info (on the web, maybe ?) about vector manipulation, please let me know. 
Ah, Found It: 
http://www.quaketerminus.com/hosted/happymaps/curv_tut.htm

Learn those ratios by heart, use them. The ratio used in the above tut is 0:2 2:4 4:2 2:0 if that makes any sense. There are other possible workable ratios but that one's always worked for me.

As far as constructing said curves, the 2-point clipper will probably give you less headache (and fewer invalid brushes) than trying to vertex manip everything into place. 
Black Monsters 
I remember someone else having a problem awhile back with this ... I have some spots in my level where creatures turn black despite the floor and the walls around them being lit perfectly fine. Is there an easy workaround for this? I'm running FitzQuake... 
Well 
If they're passing over a sky brush then they'll always appear black unless the sky brush has a normal, solid brush inside it.

If they're appearing black when passing over normal lit floor then there's an issue with the origin of the monster.

They take no reference from the walls. 
 
But what can I do as a mapper? Just rework the brushes in the area until the engine stops having an issue? 
Can You Upload A Screenshot? 
Maybe it's a known issue. 
 
The screenshot would just be an enforcer standing a well lit ledge but he's black. If he moves to either side a little bit, he lights up. I guess I'll just play with it. :) 
Fair Enough 
Doesn't sound like any issue I know about. 
Tiny Misalignments Maybe 
 
 
the problem i believe you're remembering was mine where i had torches and stuff fulldark even though the ground under them was nearly fullbright (or overbright even).

i think i understand what causes it. i suspect it has to do with FQ's lighting interpolation, but only on maps that are unsealed.

the problem usually happens in corners or along walls, never in the middle of a room.

i believe this was because the sides that made up the bottom of the wall brush and the side of the floor brush were fulldark and the interpolation was getting messed up.

i've found that sealing maps so that those faces are removed tends to fix it.

if you have an enforcer on a ledge, is it possible there are faces in the area that are messing up the interpolation?

from what i recall of how metl explained it to me, FQ doesn't just look at the floor directly beneath the model to light it. 
 
The map is definitely sealed but there might be some dark polygons in the area. I'll take a closer look... 
Curves 
Thanks a lot for that link, Grahf ! 
 
from what i recall of how metl explained it to me, FQ doesn't just look at the floor directly beneath the model to light it.

I haven't actually figured out this bug yet, but the fitzquake interpolation should still be looking just at the same floor polygon as glquake. The difference is that when you trace a line down and it hits between lightmap samples, glquake picks the nearest one and fitzquake blends between all four.

Again, since i haven't figured out this bug, i can't say in what way fitzquake is doing it wrong. 
More Curves 
No prob Ron, I'm welcome to pass the info along. Thank CZG actually, he wrote it.

Actually, it's worth mentioning that the tutorial I linked to in #8923 was written specifically for Worldcraft. The more advanced methods, of bending a hollowed pipe, simply do not work in editors such as Radiant. I beat my head against a wall for a while until Speedy told me the solution: the pipe itself can only be 8-sided, but you can bend it around a 12-sided curve. So there you have it, in case anyone was wondering. 
 
oh fuck, got a map with 400 brushes but is stucking my mapping :\

Isn�t giving me any inspiration at all :\ in some way i want to delete the dawn bastard but then I feel petty for all the work I�ve lost

But guess I will have to let this baby died and start a new one!

I�m want to start a new map like tchak but the size make me be afraid of never finish it... :\ 
Curves 
page was inspirating me to a new map!

http://members.home.nl/gimli/quake00.jpg 
MadFox = Dr.Seuss 
???? 
???? 
not sure, but does it metch:

http://members.home.nl/gimli/dummi.jpg 
Forget It 
or post your hat. 
Im Sorry 
im not comprehending what i think im supposed to :S

i think my brain has gone to warp stage 
Summary 
That's nothing.

In my occasion I never know what to think
when adding a post and the toppic grows
dead for weeks. 
Smd 
someone needs a model animation but has only the smd format.
It seems something to do with the Team Source SDK Model Source File.

I can only use 3DS or DXF files but he tells me the file in Milkshape or Max3d will only transport to these extentions without bones.

As I need to animate them it's usefull to keep the bone structure.

Is there a solution to this convert error? 
 
it's been a long long time since i was converting hl2 format models...

i believe there's a 3dsmax plugin that imports SMD files directly.

http://www.chaosincarnate.net/cannonfodder/cftools.htm
get mdldecompiler here.

this lets you decompile the mdl file into all the seperate pieces to get the smd, which, afaik, is just the mesh with vertex weighting.

then go here:
http://www.wunderboy.org/sourceapps.php
and pick up the 3dsmax smd importer to directly import the mesh into 3dsmax. this should preserve vertex weighting. 
Thanks 
for the links, necros!
I didn't realize it were hl2 models as I only came to HalfLife1.

I earlier overcame to the stunning effect when importing an enforcer it meshed up the bullit inside its gun, so I didn't understand were my extra triangle was left after exporting.

I only have 3D Studio MAX R3.
I hope the converters can handle this old version.
I could install Milkshape to get the bones preserved as modelling can get messed up when I start adding them myself. 
 
Ninety-two percent.
Oh, woes! Will you ever stop?
Space maps suck to VIS. 
And 
You're into the slowest part of the process.

Really looking forward to this map, and won't be the only one - if its any consolation. 
Heh 
that map i posted about a couple of weeks ago... estimating 1351 hours, and that's *with* willem's multicore fix. -_-

i suspect i will have to rework it. :P 
Compiling Is Fun! Honest... 
TreeQBSP v2.05 -- Modified by Bengt Jardrup
Mac port by Willem
Input file: leamondetest1.map
Output file: leamondetest1.bsp
*** WARNING 03: Line 45756: Brush with duplicate plane
[a bunch of duplicate plane errors removed]
Title: "Lea Monde"
31430 faces
5229 brushes
1023 entities
117 unique texnames
3703 texinfo
*** ERROR 37: Failure seeking to 1694052352 in file rt_gnosis_q1.wad
29 warnings
Elapsed time : 0:01
Peak memory used : 5.1 MB

So as you can see, qbsp is spitting out this bizarre error as it is loading my .wad files. I have 4 wad files I want to use, which are all in the same directory as qbsp. My wadfiles are fine, that is, they loaded with no errors into a wad editor. The above "failure seeking" error is generated when only one or two of my wads is specified in worldspawn. The number it fails to seek to varies with the number and order of wads listed in the worldspawn's "wad" key; sometimes it has been negative, but it is not random - for any given order and number of wads, the number spit out will be the same. If all four wads are listed, I get this:

qbsp(3538) malloc: *** vm_allocate(size=2690650112) failed (error code=3)
qbsp(3538) malloc: *** error: can't allocate region
qbsp(3538) malloc: *** set a breakpoint in szone_error to debug

If I am reading that vm_allocate() right, it is trying to allocate 2.6 gigabytes of memory, which I don't have. My machine has 1.5GB of physical RAM, and I got this error with 1.1GB available. I'd have thought that OS X's virtual memory management would have taken up the slack, but apparently not. Also, I was unable to reproduce the out of memory error just now, which confuses me further, but reinforces my intuition that it's a cover for something else going on. The failure seeking error is persistent however.

Oh, and the weirdest part is that if I remove the "wad" key from worldspawn entirely, the errors go away and the qbsp finishes. But I don't think it's going to look very pretty without textures. The map itself is pretty big, ~5200 brushes, but that ought not to matter because I'm getting these errors before the meat of the qbsp process even starts.

Lastly, if I ever do get this thing compiled, it has a painful lack of visblocking. You guys are scaring me. 
 
this is sort of a long shot, but it's all i can think of.

looking at the bsp info above, 117 unique texnames meaning 117 unique textures. this is a lot and i know there's a limit to how many textures can be stored (or is it a limit on how much memory can be used in textures?)
and the limit may only been in the engine itself, not the compiler, it's just that when you said that removing the wad key (and hence not loading any textures) makes the problem go away is what made me think of it.

try making a test map and replacing most (or all?) of the textures with a single one and see if that does anything... 
 
The number of textures isn't the problem here (there have been maps with twice as many). There seems to be something wrong with the WADs, some that your editor doesn't mind but QBSP chokes on. Try merging them in TexMex or at least save each of them to a new filename in case there're some faulty bits somewhere. 
 
ijed: Just as any new map is appreciated and looked forward to. Keeping you informed about the process is actually a double-edged affair, since it kind of renders me as a fool for going through such a hassle for so little gain, both in terms of VIS results and the quality of the map - which is not to say it sucks, but it got out of proportion some 500 hours ago. :D

necros: Keep in mind the time esimations don't stay constant throughout the whole process. If it says 1300 hours in the beginning, you can bet it'll go up dramatically at a later point and especially towards the end. Better add a digit. 
 
yep. i'm currently running a test with vis -level 1.
if that's enough to keep things smooth, i can stand not having super accurate vis calculations.

there's something wierd though, because i seem to be getting strange behaviour with the timer.
elapsed time is incorrect saying 34 minutes when it has been running for over 2 hours...
the estimate at level 1 is only 3 hours, but if the timer isn't working, than likely nothing it's outputting is correct... i'll see what it's like tomorow, i suppose... 
Sure 
But this is a big negke space map. 
Timer 
maybe the elapsed time readout is based on actual cpu tics used for vis, not real-world elapsed time? 
 
i doubt it because that doesn't really make any sense for aguire to code it that way. besides, i've used his vis for lots of maps and never had anything weird like that happen.

trying again with -level 2 and it seems to be working properly now. 
Blah, Update 
I put one texture on all brushes in the map, "wad" = "knave.wad" in worldspawn, and still this:

*** ERROR 37: Failure seeking to 471762432 in file knave.wad

I imported the whole map into a new file, and still the same. I even tried on a completely different map. If there are no wadfiles in worldspawn, it will compile. If there are valid wadfiles specified, qbsp will fail. Either there is something really fucked on my end, or there is a problem with the Mac port. Sorry to bother you all, I'm gonna go bawww at Willem now. 
 
If that WAD file is loading into your editor correctly then there's no reason it shouldn't work in QBSP. Weird. 
Grahf 
Which editor are you using ? 
I'm Not Sure The Editor Used Is Directly Relevant, But 
it's gtkradiant 1.4 on mac os x 10.4. I convert the map file to q1 format with sleepy's java map converter. I would be using Willem's excellent Toetag, but it rendered my stupidly big map at molasses speeds on this old hardware.

In qbsp's source code, warnerr.h, I see that there is an "errSeekFailure" which is obviously what I'm getting. When and where would this be called?

I've tried several wads, most straight from quaddicted and a few I've assembled myself, all giving the same error.

Actually, I just had the horrifying thought that it could be failing to seek because my hard drive is dying. Yikes. Though I haven't noticed any other similar problems. 
 
Oh, I didn't realize it was a Mac port. In this case you, can put all the blame on Willum. Is there any other compatible QBSP you could try, perhaps with a Windows emulator? Doesn't MacRadiant save to .map or why do you have to use that converter? 
Grahf 
Indeed, the editor is not relevant, however for some reason, sometimes during .map generation, it can generate weird stuff.... anyway, the fact it is a Mac porting is certainely the issue.
You may should try with TxQBSP instead, or move to a PC... :( 
 
The fact that it's a Mac port should actually have very little to do with it. I use that version of it all the time and it works fine for me. I can't imagine what the issue is here...

Definitely try another version of QBSP and see what happens. If it's my fault, that's fine, I'll fix it - but I'm having a hard time buying it at this point in time. :P 
Mac-hate Is Digital Racism 
 
 
Grahf

Email me the MAP file and the WAD you're using (preferably something reasonably small) and I'll try compiling it myself. Should be easy to track down what's going on... 
Upgrading Is Digital Genocide 
 
 
Ahh OK, grahf has a PowerPC machine. I don't believe these tools are set up for big/little endian swapping. I believe the tools are currently Intel only.

I'll put that on my task list. :) 
Doh! 
I had a feeling that might be the cause of my problems. Thanks for looking into it anyways. 
 
I'm working on it. It might be easy and it might not be. I'll know more by the time the weekend is out. For now, you could compile in a Windows machine by using Parallels or something ... or just use a regular version of QBSP for now. 
Some Basic Questions 
I have a door but the angles 135 and 315 don't seem to work. Am I stupid ????

And how can I make a trigger that makes another trigger operational? 
Re 8970 
1. not sure, can't say i recall having any problems with those angles.

try 134 and 314? could just be those specific angles or the door could be linking with others. check that each door's bounding box isn't intersecting another.

2. short answer, you can't.
long answer, you can.

make an info_notnull but as a brush entity. (make it a trigger_once and rename classname to 'info_notnull'.

make a 'think' key and set it to InitTrigger.
make a 'nextthink' key and set it to '0.5'
make a 'use' key and set it to 'trigger_once' or 'trigger_multiple'
now set targetname.
set up any other relevant stuff like message or delay or whatever.

when you trigger this thing, it will turn into a normal trigger but will not do anything before. 
Thanks For The Quick Reply 
1. 134 and 314 don't seem to work properly either.
I uploaded a testmap where I have this problem:
http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/misc/door.map.zip
2. Thanks I will try that :) 
 
try fudging it by giving the broken doors negative 'lip' values. 
 
That seems to do the trick :) 
 
you know what would be wild?

make a program that will load a bsp file that has had it's vis information calculated and somehow allow you to manually set which portals are visible from other portals. 
Necros 
make a program that will load a bsp file that has had it's vis information calculated and somehow allow you to manually set which portals are visible from other portals.

Pure nightmare !! 
 
Or how about a program that would let you directly edit the light map? Could be useful for fixing those odd errors you get sometimes or just for creating some interesting effects. 
 
not really directly editing, but it would be awesome if you could both assign a bitmap image as a light pattern on a spot light as well as be able to specify 'noise' on both sunlight, minlight and normal lights. 
Editing The Light 
Probably the best way to create a program for editing the lights would be a custom engine. Just add the ability to "paint" by applying a dynamic light to the scene which gets written to the lightmaps fully. Then add the ability to save those back into the bsp. Only problem is that you'd have no way of restoring those edits to the bsp next time you compiled. Unless you recorded a demo of yourself doing it... 
<- 
 
I Love Posting This Link. 
Whenever someone says, "wouldn't it be cool if quake had..." chances are decent that pOx's eUtils has done it.

http://quake.chaoticbox.com/

I quote from the readme:

Tyrlite+ contains support for OpenQuartz ( http://openquartz.sourceforge.net ) LIGHT noise extensions. These allow you to apply noise algorithms when lighting a level to break up common color-banding problems, or acheive more "organic" looking lightmaps. The following attributes have been added to the eUtils Quiver defs for all lights:

"Noise Level" (_noise) accepts a floating point value from 0-1.0 (0 is no noise). You can "overexpose" the noise with values greater than 1.0, but the effect is usually undesireable (values of 0.5 or less are best for subtle effects).

"Noise Type" (_noisetype) can be set to 0 (Random), 1 (Smooth), or 2 (Perlin).

"Noise Resolution" (_resolution) controls the size or scaling of the effect. Higher numbers make the end effect larger (lower detail).

"Perlin Noise Persistence" (_persistence) This controls the perlin noise decay per octave.

You can use the "-noise" switch from the commandline to add random noise to all lights, but note that you cannot currently use noise on Global lights (Sunlight or Minlight).


Too bad it doesn't do noise on sunlight, pretty sweet otherwise though. Presumably you could get the code straight from OpenQuartz, but their hasn't-been-updated-in-five-years website wasn't terribly helpful. 
That's Cool 
i guess you could rephrase my above post as 'wouldn't it be cool if someone haxored pox's stuff into aguirRe's utils? :P 
Mac OS 9 & Mac OS X (PPC) Compatible 
wouldn't it be cool if it was cross-platform? 
Hmm... 
I thought all the id code handled byte swapping, could be mistaken though. 
Autosaving 
we've discussed this before, but i have no idea where it went...

i wanted to implement this for my next map, and i was thinking:
send console command save ne_autosave
and in a config file bind f8 "load ne_autosave"
f8, afaik, doesn't do anything and it's both close and seperate from f9.

opinions? 
 
can you use stuffcmd to load the game as well as save it? that would be better. (i.e. when user hits "jump" or "shoot" while dead, instead of doing the normal thing, the quakec would trigger a load then.) 
 
this is for quoth, so no qc modifications.

but yeah, i don't see why you couldn't do that.

in void() respawn:
if (coop)
{
// make a copy of the dead body for appearances sake
CopyToBodyQue (self);
// get the spawn parms as they were at level start
setspawnparms (self);
// respawn
PutClientInServer ();
}
else if (deathmatch)
{
// make a copy of the dead body for appearances sake
CopyToBodyQue (self);
// set default spawn parms
SetNewParms ();
// respawn
PutClientInServer ();
}
else
{ // restart the entire server
localcmd ("restart\n");
}

it would just be a matter of replacing the restart command at the bottom. 
Need Someone With UnrealED3 (UT3) 
I need someone with UnrealED3 (the UT3 version) installed to take a brief look over a map I have been slowly working on for a loooong time now to help me decide whether I should continue slowly building upon it or whether I should just put it out of it's misery.

Download it HERE
Arrow 
As I'm making a frogman model I'm confronted with a strange qc compile habbit.

I reconstruckted the model on the enforcer qc, this means I used the shoot section to evaluate its harpoon action.
As I compiled the arrow suddenly blasts to the sky.
I couldn't find a reason for it, so I changed the
org = self.origin + v_forward * 30 + v_right * 8.5 + '0 0 16';
from the model_fire section into
org = self.origin + v_forward * 30 + v_right * 8.5 + '0 0 -24';
and now the model shoots somehow left to the player, but not exact aiming its goal.

What I don't get is that they both seem to harm the player.
Also if I change the -24 a measure further the arrow shoots in the ground.
It seems impossible to aim it straight to the player.

Another strange habbit occurs on the model that's in the water.
It is the same subroutine I use for as the land model.
Only the land model shoots an arrow, the watermodel only shoots but there doesn't appear an arrow in water.
Does this mean the conditions for a model to spawn is different than on land? 
 
have you called makevectors(self.angles) before using the v_ unit vectors? 
Yes 
as I thought this part was the positioning of the shooting angle of the model itself, it didn't make sense to me the arrow shoots straight to the sky.

void() harpi_fire =
{
local vector org;

self.effects = self.effects | EF_MUZZLEFLASH;
makevectors (self.angles);

org = self.origin + v_forward * 30 + v_right * 8.5 + '0 0 -24';

Launchharpi(org, self.enemy.origin - self.origin);
};
 
 
ok, that bit looks fine, now you need to check if launchharpi is correct. 
Well 
It's the same as the enforcer, but I must admit it is not a usual qc.
It is a combination of two models, who will be going to be melted as a water and a land model.
So the problem might as well lay in another part, although both of the models use the same Launchharpi.


void(vector org, vector vec) Launchharpi =
{
local vector vec;

if (self.classname == "monster_enforcer")
sound (self, CHAN_WEAPON, "enforcer/enfire.wav", 1, ATTN_NORM);

vec = normalize(vec);

newmis = spawn();
newmis.owner = self;
newmis.movetype = MOVETYPE_FLY;
newmis.solid = SOLID_BBOX;
newmis.effects = EF_DIMLIGHT;

setmodel (newmis, "progs/pioen.mdl");
setsize (newmis, '0 0 0', '0 0 0');

setorigin (newmis, org);

newmis.velocity = vec * 600;
newmis.angles = vectoangles(newmis.velocity);

newmis.nextthink = time + 5;
newmis.think = SUB_Remove;
newmis.touch = harpi_Touch;
};
 
 
i see a potential problem here. you have a variable 'vec' being passed into the function, and you also have a local variable 'vec' being declared at the start.

remove the local variable and that may fix your problem. 
Necros 
I'm not so familiar with the stats although I'll believe you.
Remove the local variable, is that

//vec = normalize(vec);  
 
No, this:

//local vector vec;

Then you'll be using the variable you passed in rather than the local one. 
 
yeah, the normalize(vec) is actually very important. normalize makes whatever the vector passed in a unit vector.
that is to say, the vector is reduced from whatever it was so that it's total length is 1.
this is how you can then multiply vec by an arbitrary number to create consistent velocity (ie: projectile always travels at 600 units per second). if you didn't normalize, the velocity of the projectile would change in relation to how far apart you and the enemy are. 
Thanks! 
I included it in the qc, but I wondered. I always thought that the

org = self.origin + v_forward * 30 + v_right * 8.5 + '0 0 -24';

positioned the point of shooting from the monster, where the last three numbers were the actual position of its gun.

With these coordinates I get a shooting frogman which shoots its arrow 24 units above its gun, but the arrow goes left above me.

http://members.home.nl/gimli/frogman.jpg 
 
org = self.origin + v_forward * 30 + v_right * 8.5 + '0 0 -24';

assuming makevectors has been run, the above line will set org to a position 30 units in front, 8.5 units to the right and -24 units up (all monsters are 24 units above the ground, so -24 will make it right on the floor).

the reason it's shooting nuts is because when you call launchharpi, you are calculating the trajectory with self.enemy.origin - self.origin but your spawn point is at org.

in order for it to work correctly, the function call should either be:
Launchharpi(org, self.enemy.origin - org);
or:
Launchharpi(self.origin, self.enemy.origin - self.origin); 
Indeed! 
It might as well be above my hat but it seems to work.
I just get a little confused by the -24 as it still shoots above the players head.
It reminds me at the moment I placed the new monster in game and it flew 24 units above the ground.
I decided to lower all frames. So it is this difference that shoots the arrow overhead. Can't think of a way to overcome this now. 
9000! 
 
It's Over 9000. 
just take -24 off.

it's shooting up because you are doing:
self.enemy.origin - org

think of it this way:

self.origin = '0 0 0' (you)
self.enemy.origin = '128 0 0' (monster)

this would be both the monster and you being at the same height.

but now, you are calculating:
self.enemy.origin - org
let's forget about v_forward and v_right for now.
that makes org = '128 0 -24' because the math is: '128 0 0' + '0 0 -24' = '128 0 -24'.

so think of it like the enemy.origin is the gun which is -24, so it has to shoot up towards 0.

removing -24 from the vertical element will make the monster shoot straight horizontally.

remember shamblers, how their lightning goes downwards or droles shoot at the player's feet. the drole shooting at the player's feet was completely unintentional and was a by-product of the spawn point of the drole missile (which is above the origin of the monster, so it shoots downward at the player which is the opposite of what's happening to your monster). 
Alternatively, 
if you want the monster to shoot from it's feet, then change the trajectory vector.

instead of Launchharpi(org, self.enemy.origin - org);, do Launchharpi(org, (self.enemy.origin + '0 0 -24') - org); which will make the monster shoot at your feet too. 
Right 
Thanks for your clear explanation!

I understand now how this positioning works.
I just couldn't understand why the arrow kept shooting above the monster, although the cooordinates were right.

Then I realized when I imported the monster into Qmle it was 24 units above the ground.
So when I put these models back in game the arrow shoots right.

Now I need to know how I can lower the model 24 units and keep their original shooting point.
It sounds kinky, but it seems Qmle imports models rather rough.
One moment they are exact on the 0'0'0 axis.
But after playing in game they suddenly drop 24 to 48 units down the zero line.
Also it seems as if there is no difference between the zero line and, let's say a multiple above or below. 
 
all monsters' feet are at -24 units. 
So 
Noone has UnrealED3 (UT3) installed? 
Jago: I Had A Quick Look 
Heh - my first time ever looking at UnrealEditor. The level looks pretty smart, You obviously blocked it out with the brick texture. I never work like this, although I know a lot of people do. I actually dont think that the red brick texture should be used anywhere in this map. I think if you went for some tech-style textures (metal panels etc) which would go with the trim. The trim (the meshes and stuff) look like they are out of a spaceship, or an oil-rig or something.
I think you would find that the level would start to materialise into something which looked a bit better-themed if you slowly went through the map and replaced all of the brick textures, with dark metal panels and suchlike.

The layout looked prety interesting - multi-tiered, and nice interconnection. So I would say you should finish it for sure. Just do more with tech-style texturing and good old brushwork :D

Nice work 
Looking Into Making A New .map Editor 
Tell me, what features do you like and what parts do you not like. anything goes.

It will be implemented in Erlang with plugins written in Erlang. The newest release of Erlang includes wxWidgets and OpenGL so I decided to learn how to use wxWidgets. 
Good Luck 
I'd say these are the important features:

Good Cameras
Decent Texture System, with texture lock and multiple WAD support
Ease of use entity listing (def, fgd, whatever)
Ease of install / setup
Slice Brush Tool
Vertex Manipulation Tool
Prefab Library

Probably some stuff I'm forgetting there. 
Damn 
Viusal (named group) hiding is nice as well. 
Some Notes 
| Good Cameras
Is that good camera controls? Ability to change camera positions quickly? i have an idea (look below)

| Decent Texture System, with texture lock and multiple WAD support
I consider multiple part of the virtual file system I will have to make.
Texture locking is for moving brushes, correct?
And what kind of User Interface controls are needed, tagging textures and using that to browse sounds usefull for instance.

| Ease of use entity listing (def, fgd, whatever)
I already started with using a fgd file to see how i can make my own format: http://3spire.com/quake.txt
it is based on Erlang terms and can be loaded easyly, will this format work?
Configuration will also use this kind of file, so that it can be loaded easily.

| Ease of install / setup
I plan on using the same install system of Wings3D

| Slice Brush Tool
| Vertex Manipulation Tool
These should be able to be done with plugins

| Prefab Library
Also done with plugins, so that the prefabs can be configurable

| Visual (named group) hiding
I would like to be able to provide multiple views into the same map as represented as named tabs. Each tab can control visibility of each brush/entity and the positions of the 3d camera and 2d grids.
Another idea is to make brushes and entities each belong to multiple layers, and hiding/showing layers are per tab as well. 
Awesome 
QuArK does some things really well.

-I LOVE the interface (how you create and edit things) and could never get into the major brainfuck that are the radiantish editors (Blender is easier...). Not to mention not having a mess of lines but just dots for the grid. So such an interface would get my love.

-All the texture alignment features (apart from locking I think).

-grouping things in folders, also being able to hide those.

The texture browsing is badly implemented, vertex editing is plain horror.

So Vertex editing is what I am after the most. Especially if you could then triangulate for new edges. 
 
Cameras - all of those. Extras like 'walkthrough mode' and so on are just a waste of time, although a feature I'd like to see is 'mangle readout' so that placing camera entities inside the level becomes easier.

Yeah, texture lock means it doesn't move when you move or rotate the brush - not an easy technical challenge. Changing projection options between local / global is useful as well.

Tagging isn't as useful as it sounds, even though it does seem like you're going for an 'all wads on the HD' approach (which is great). I say this because wads are usually named in a fairly logical fashion - the ones that aren't tend to be not very good. For me such a feature would be an extra. If the texture listing is alphabetical then you're probably good.

Having said that a 'currently used in map' toggle would be good. Worldcraft is a popular editor (I use it as well despite the bugs) which has a very nice texture system - you couldn't go wrong by copying it.

For an entity list remember that it needs to be editable by mappers who may not have any coding knowledge - the simpler the better.

Tabs = win. Especially if they're user editable.

And finally, make everything you can customisable as far as the interface goes. Nobody works the same way, so the easier it is to turn the grid from lines to dots or chocolate drops the better. For example :)

Like with most 3D editors, ease of use and end user customisation options tends to win out over powerful functionality. 
Hm 
'Worldcraft has a nice texture system' that's only true if you count not having to convert the wads (in 3.3 at least, 1.6a has shitty texturing). 
New Editor 
What will yours do that will set it apart from others? Or is it just a fun personal project to learn programming stuff?

I think strong brush manipulation tools are key for working with large and complex objects - actions like flipping, rotating, scaling are very helpful and save time for the mapper.

Also, it's probably not a must have feature but I really love 3-point clipping. 
 
What will yours do that will set it apart from others? Or is it just a fun personal project to learn programming stuff?

this is the first thing that came to me mind.

as grahf said, good brush manipulation is a must. rotating groups of brushes by arbitrary angles (with intelligent vertex snapping onto the grid). more powerful automation of texturing over curves (being able to propagate texture alignment as if multiple faces were a single one, for example). mixing between the straight forward regioning of gtkr and vis groups of WC.

basically this late in the game, it'd take a lot to make me switch editors. 
 
I have always wanted to create a mapping program, but the interface bits is my more immediate concern.

I would like to get this to a level of making maps for Nexiuz.

I also would like to model the editor to be more like Wings3D, where there are commands that can be done on vertex, edge, face, object.

And concerning the convex nature of brushes I would like to be able store a complex brush while editing that gets decomposed as multiple brushes when saving to a .map files.
That should solve many problems with brush editing I think. treating it like a 3d model rather than a convex object.

for curve texturing, that sounds possible with the internal representation of the brush I have decided to use. And it annoyed me as a mapper that I had to manually adjust texture offsets to get them to match.

This is not the best time for me to start a project (getting married in a month and I travel alot) but this will defiantly sustain my attention. 
 
"And concerning the convex nature of brushes I would like to be able store a complex brush while editing that gets decomposed as multiple brushes when saving to a .map files.
That should solve many problems with brush editing I think. treating it like a 3d model rather than a convex object."

This is something that I wanted to do for ToeTag but, brother, it's a bitch. If you can get it working it'll be great but I haven't found a nice, reliable way to break down meshes into convex chunks yet.

Although I haven't tried my octree idea yet... that one had promise. 
 
In fact, if you've got a handle on things like how to do texture locking and breaking down meshes and that sort of math in general - we should get together and maybe do a cross platform version of ToeTag or something. 
 
concave, not convex, right?
That feature would be a true killer feature. 
 
dunno if this is what you mean, but it would be awesome if you essentially build a 3d mesh out of n-sided polys just like in 3ds max and the editor would automatically split ngons into tris. afterwards, it would look at the face normal and whichever direction is closest, north, south, east or west, it would simply extrude the face backwards, keeping it parallel.
ie: you make a collection of faces that face upwards, it would extrude the face down allowing you to make cool trisouped terrain easily. the same could be applied for caves. 
 
Madfox looks very nice the frogman :) 
The 
Type of advanced brush treatment you're describing isn't in any bsp editor I've seen (anyone else?) so if you need testing then let me know.

I'm pretty busy so testing to destruction I probably can't do, be an update a week wouldn't be a problem. 
Moving Discussion Of New Map Editor 
Why? 
 
 
Yeah, all the mappers are here. :) 
Maybe 
all editors are there....

preach, you've got email. 
Toetag 
Does Toetag work in Linux, since Apple's current operating system is mostly Unix based ? 
No 
Would using a GPU for VIS be a possible (and sensible) idea? 
 
"Does Toetag work in Linux, since Apple's current operating system is mostly Unix based ?"

No, it heavily relies on Cocoa and Objective-C. The underlying OS isn't really a factor. 
Linux Mapping 
Radiant is probably your best bet, either the venerable GTKRadiant or the somewhat newer fork NetRadiant. 
Necros 
What went wrong with your building outside the limits experiment? I don't remember :P

I'm thinking of a similar sort of thing, a brushwork skybox. 
The Hell, Will It Ever End! 
99.60% and it takes longer than forever even on a quad core machine. At this rate, I estimate it will be done in around five days. However, the problem is that I will be out of town for a month tomorrow (I'll still have a computer available, but a slow one).
So, does anyone here by chance have a really fast machine and is willing to help me out? Willem, that 16 core thing of yours - would it be possible to use it for this or is it only for work stuff? 
 
ijed: absolutely nothing! you can build outside the +/-4096^3 playable area to your heart's content, just don't ever let the player walk past that boundary because they 'loop' back to the opposite side of the map (like in pac-man) but the collision behaves as if you hadn't looped back.
also, don't let the player shoot projectiles past the boundary because they loop back too. if this is for RQ, it would be a good idea to place triggers along those boundaries to remove projectiles.
also, as a side-effect to this looping, you can't place any point entities outside the boundary, but bmodel entities are ok.

there is a hard limit though. you can't build past +/- 8192. anything beyond that doesn't get displayed at all. in fitzquake, it looks like you have farclip on-- it's just cut off at that point and you see the void (or hom).

this behaviour is attributed to the fact that the coordinate system of the server runs on variables twice as large as that of the client. 
Negke 
Play russian roulette: Set up a script that zips and uploads the file in 120 hours, then shutdown the pc. 
 
negke

I could try and run it but it IS a work machine. I can't tie it up endlessly with a VIS process... 
Hehe 
with 16 cores, just keep like 4 for you and the rest for vis. :P

well, unless it's used for cg rendering or something and let me tell you, 16 cores rendering would be pretty damn badass. 
Thanks 
 
Re: 9035 
are you could just make a script upload the file every few days along with it's .vis file to the same spot and you can keep checking to see when you have a complete map by starting the vis process up on your slow machine. 
Negke: 
there is a hard limit though. you can't build past +/- 8192. anything beyond that doesn't get displayed at all. in fitzquake, it looks like you have farclip on-- it's just cut off at that point and you see the void (or hom).

this behaviour is attributed to the fact that the coordinate system of the server runs on variables twice as large as that of the client.


this is not quite right. Both server and client use floats for their coordinate system, but the network protocol uses a special 13.3 fixed point format when sending coordinates. This means 13 bits devoted to the integer part of the number, and 3 bits devoted to the fractional part. So the precision is 1/8th of a quake unit, and the highest possible number is 4095.875 (lowest is -4096)

so when a client is rendering anything with coordinates that come from the server, it will never be outside that range. But the server side location and physics are actually working, just what you see is wrong.

The question of how far quake can draw world polygons should just be covered by the gl_farclip distance, which is configurable in some engines. Not sure if there are any other factors besides that. 
 
I made a google group because this forum is not very efficient, its only one thread. 
9040 
oh sorry. when we were talking about it before, it was a little complex so i guess i forgot some of it.

i'm not really sure what was happening regarding that 8192 hard limit, but that no matter what gl_farclip setting i set, i could never seen beyond, what i was guessing would be 8192 units away from the origin.
there was a solid cut off with just void at that point that didn't move at all. 
Necros: 
hmm, must be some other cause then, maybe the vis tool uses some distance limit? Does it show up with r_novis 1? 
 
Willem: Hm, I see. Don't want to cause you any trouble of course. I just want to finally get this thing out for good (and as soon as possible, not only in October). Maybe you could at least let it run during a lunch break for an hour or so to see how much progress it makes? I would then continue from there.

Spirit: Indeed, but I don't like the idea of leaving the computer on for such a long time when I'm not around. 
 
negke

Sure, email it to me or put it up somewhere I can download it. I'll run it overnight or something if you want... 
Excellent 
 
 
if anyone is still interested, my solution to my problem above with long vis times was simply to remove all the terrain into a seperate map. that map will only get a quick vis, leaving the left-overs of the original to get a full vis (which only took 20 hours vs 700-1200~, lol). 
 
What does that mean? Can you have separate maps like that for release, or is this just a way to let you iterate without killing yourself? 
Necros 
I am confused about what you said.. Is it really possible to fastvis only one part of a map, and then fullvis the rest of the same map ? How do you do that ? 
Do You Mean 
Having a .bsp placed in the map as a model? 
 
sorry for the confusion, i just meant that i split the map up. the first portion has enough terrain to connect the interior areas, but i reworked gameplay such that the majority of the terrain could be removed and placed in a seperate map to be played linearily after the first.

terrain seems to be a serious vis killer. all those odd angles and varied planes really fucks the BSP process up resulting in thousands of extra portals or whatever. since the terrain section is mostly wide open anyway, and vising would have limited to no effect, that map will just be fast-vised. 
Otoh 
i would be incredibly bad-ass if you could, for example, modify qbsp so that if you cover an area with a 'fastvis' textured brush, any portals (or whatever they are) that are touching that brush are ignored in the full-vis process. :P 
Well 
Maybe placing bsp's as entities could work. How it'd not get screwed by vis (flickering entities) would probably depend on dividing it up into chunks with some trial and error though. 
 
lighting something like that would be a nightmare though. :S 
 
depends on the engine i guess. with a shiny swiss army tool like darkplaces it should work fine. for some fun copy some map to progs/player.mdl and do chase_active 1 plus chase_back 3000 (or something like that). a piece of cake for dp.

proper lighting (for the "external" objects "in" the terrain map) would hard though,yeah 
Add New Weapon 
Where can I find a suitable add new weapon qc?
I searched at Inside3D but all there is are modified already ingame weapons. 
Tutorial 
It's just a matter of finding the right tutorial:

http://www.inside3d.com/showtutorial.php?id=60

This one is about adding new weapons. You do have to pay attention to some of the slight cheats they have to use. One is that rather than setting up a new key to press for the weapon, they make it so that pressing 2 twice brings it up. They also don't make a new entity in the map for it, which is something I expect you'd do if you're making a custom map. 
Random 
Building http://www.gamers.org/pub/idgames2/utils/bsp_pak_tools/qeu03.zip on modern Linux is easy, just remove the lines containing the del and coff2exe references.

And now I'll continue the search for a commandline mip2saneimageformat tool. Could not get MIP2BMP.EXE from http://www.gamers.org/pub/idgames2/utils/bsp_pak_tools/qmaphack11.zip to work with Dosbox. 
 
Niels Froehling's QuakeTools-library would be an epiphany but compiling is just not possible without a tremendous amount of work I guess. http://www.gamers.org/pub/idgames2/utils/bsp_pak_tools/qtools0.3-src.zip 
Found 
the right tutorial indeed, but after covering all errors I just keep
drawing 2 untill I too error.
Seems as if replacing v_shot.mdl is an easier way for testing.

Strange to conclude these tuts are so wicked in error messages.
Although they added my EathQuake. 
My New Mapping Technique Is Unstoppable 
i've been trying something new. essentially, working only from the top view, i'll drag out brushes 32 units high of varying width and length creating floors. i create a significant portion of the map at a time in this manner and i specifically try *not* to pay much attention to the size of those floors, other than keeping them on a 32x32 grid for texture alignment purposes.
i'll make the decision that, say, a generic hallway is 192 units wide, but everything else goes. a room can be any dimension (and any combination of brushes to create the final shape).
after doing this, in a side view, i'll semi-randomly move connected sections of floor up or down up to 256 units (in either direction).

this can lead to some pretty weird and convoluted shapes with that sort of 'tumor growth' mapping look. 
I'm Not Sure I Get It. 
pics to demonstrate, please? 
GTKRadiant Not Finding Quake 1 Textures 
I just installed GTKRadiant to try some Quake editing, and I set up the paths all right, but it won't load any textures other than the SHADER NOT FOUND one. When I look in the console it says:
Texture load failed: "textures/"
Any hints on what could be going wrong? 
What Version Of GTKRadiant? 
In the latest version of GTKR 1.5, I just put the .WAD files in C:\Games\Quake\id1 and point the editor to C:\Games\Quake for the game engine path. 
How To Extract? 
How do I extract the WADS from the PAKS? I've tried several programs but I can't see any .wad files anywhere... 
 
the wads aren't in the pak files at all, but you can get the textures from the individual BSP files.

But you can also get the wads here: http://www.quaddicted.com/wads/ (look for "quakewad" i think") 
Yay! 
Downloaded the quakewad file and put it in id1... Now works perfectly! Thanks! Although you need to rename the quake101.wad to quake1.wad. 
How Are You Guys Lighting Your Quake Levels? 
What light program and command line options? How many light entities? (relative to the number of brushes maybe, just to give perspective). Do you use minlight or skylight or both? How long does it take to run the light part of compiling the level.

I'm real curious about this cause I read a post where Than said the Plumbers Carry Shotguns level took about 25 seconds to light, and my current map is taking almost 10 mins for a high quality pass. There were 2758 brushes and 16621 faces at the time of this run:

----- Light 1.43 ---- Modified by Bengt Jardrup

Extra 4x4 sampling enabled
Soft light 3 enabled
Soft distance 16 set
File: c:\quake\id1\maps\wish16.bsp
Using minlight value 15 from worldspawn
1079 entities read, 625 are lights, 13879 faces, 3.9G casts
4 switchable light styles

lightdatasize: 467 kb

Elapsed time : 9:58 
Well That Aint Too Bad Really 
Many of my maps have taken double that (like 20 mins) in the past.

Plumbers Dont Wear Ties is a detailed map, but not too detailed, but also its not really that big. Its a realistic scale, and its condensed, but its not very big compared to say the Warp maps or Marcher Fortress. Load Bengts engine and load the Plumbers map and type into the console "lightmaps" and try it with your own map too. Lightmaps are if you like "X amount of texture worth of light info", so the bigger the map (so long as the texture scale is 1:1) the more lightmaps.
Also if you have plenty detail in your map that wont help the speed (but it will make the map look sexier :).

I wouldnt worry about it too much! 
 
I probably should have mentioned I used a Core2Duo e6850 (2x 3.0 GHz) with 2 GB RAM.

I wasn't worried really, it just seemed like 25 secs was way low for a map like that. I ran id's e3m1 this morning with the same settings as I used for my map and it took 2 mins 14 secs.

Anyway, I'm still curious how other people light their maps. 
Light My Fire 
this is my understanding of the issue...

When you have multiple lights with inverse falloffs hitting the same surfaces over a long distance, the light time tends to go up. With inverse and inverse square falloffs, the light level never completely hits zero, so if a light using those formulas is in a wide open area, all the surfaces within line of sight of that light have to be calculated, even if the light level only increases infitesimally.

APSP2 was a fairly narrow and cramped map, so while it was detailed, none of the lights had to cast very far.

The extra 4x4 sampling and soft stuff increases the time as well. But thankfully, light calculation time is not painfully exponential like vis, it seems to increase fairly linearly. 
Re Lighting 
Rick: are you sure Than didn't say 25 minutes? to me, that would seem more realistic for a map of that size with the amount of lights present. but maybe he just has a monster machine...

grahf: aguirRe and i had a discussion about this kind of phenomenon with inverse square lights. mostly it was regarding how using that delay type with switchable lights could quickly run up to the max lightstyles on a face warning.
he implemented the 'fade gate' command line. essentially, it will cut the light off once it's light level has been attenuated below a cutoff point.

setting -gate 1 on aguirRe's light util will cut down on lighting times by a large margin because it's disregarding a lot of lighting that wouldn't even be seen.

back to Rick: as for light utils and settings, for preview compiles, i use:
light -gate 1.0 -fast -soft
and final compiles is:
light -gate 1.0 -soft -extra
i don't use extra4 though, because that is just insane and will take millennia to compile. aguirRe recommends -fast -soft -extra4, but i haven't tried that yet.
it's really worth your time to look through all the info aguirRe has on how to use his tools: http://user.tninet.se/~xir870k/readmevis.txt the lighting tool has a huge amount of options in there. 
Lighting... 
Yeah, extra4 basically takes about 10x as long on my maps, so for a quick look I don't use it, with just -soft it'll light in about one minute.

I did read through all that documentation and it was very helpful, I've been experimenting with a lot of the new stuff.

I wasn't real clear on the Gate thing, but now I think I understand it. I'm also not certain exactly how the -softdist is supposed to be used, but it seems like I get a lot fewer of those abnormally dark faces when I use that option. The documentation (I think)indicated using small numbers like 3 or 4, but I've been using -softdist 16 
 
i guess it's impossible to change the player model's angle without having to use fixangle = 1 (thus changing the angle the player is looking?

it seems i will have to replace the player with an invisible sprite and then make a dummy model that follows the player's position in order for me to get the results i want? 
Yeah, I Think That's Correct 
but you probably need to use an .mdl, otherwise there might be engine issues (i know the weaponmodel expects to be a mdl, not sure about playermodel) 
 
i got it working with a sprite so seems everything's ok.

btw, your chase camera is kind of wonky and is prone to being shaky at times. it seems to pick up on stairs and angled floors in front of the player, where the crosshair is pointing or something. just fyi :)
i've also noticed a bug with the camera where, if you are looking down, and the camera is higher than the player, and you enter into a tunnel where the ceiling is lower than where your camera is, the camera goes psycho and starts moving in huge arcs outside the map. (this is with chase_up set at 32, which is higher than the default) 
Necros: 
yeah, it kind of sucks. I sort of stopped trying to fix it once i realized it's pretty much a gimmick and Quake is better in first-person mode anyway :) 
GTkRadiant 
Cannot compile in GTKRadiant 1.5 for Quake. Anyone know how to fix this for GTKRadiant 1.5? 
Nik 
Try the "search on this page" option while vieuwing all posts of this thread upwards with the word GTKRadiant. 
I Know It's Cheap..., 
but helpfull. 
So.... 
just looking around at the quake sources.......

how the fuck did they get any of that to even compile? o.0 
 
I know it's easy to point and laugh at the original Quake maps but those guys built some pretty cool levels with technology that was changing on a daily basis. That's tough to do. 
 
Not to mention the primitive tools. QuakeEd was ... pretty rough. 
 
i'm not laughing. i'm serious. the original qbsp was incredibly finicky which is what taught me to map with incredible precision making sure everything lined up properly etc etc.
looking at maps like e2m2, it's almost like divine luck or arcane power that would have allowed it to compile without exploding. 
Dog Rough 
But when you look at it you can see that they're at the minimum level of compilability.

Which means each of those maps must have undergone loads of iterations to reach that level, probably starting with something resembling Escher vomit.

Like Willem says, after ten years of trial and error with bsp it's impossible to make a comparison. 
Fake Shadows 
I constructed a terrain map with triangles.
After fitting all polyhedrons well tight the light seem to cast all kind of rare shadows.

Is there a way to avoid this odd behaviour? 
 
depends.

if you're using aguirRe's light
i found -soft will make these shadows a lot. even if the faces are perfectly connected. obviously, not using -soft is a solution, but not a good one. if this is a preview compile, and you have -soft and -fast, usually not doing -fast will reduce it.

it's always there though, afaik. smooth transitions of angles like terrain don't seem to go over well with any of the quake tools. :P 
Oh 
one thing, you can try using _anglesense 0.1 on lights hitting the terrain (and _anglesense on your worldspawn for sunlight). setting angle sensitivity way down like that will make light not attenuate much on different angles. this makes it look very shitty and weird (faces not really facing the light will still be bright as if they are directly facing it) though, so it may not be a viable solution (i haven't tried it) 
Black Slopes 
I made a polyhedron from a cube and cut of a pyramide on top.
After some punctual accurasy it can be used for terrain maps.
Point is that after placing it on grid and changing the topangles also replaces the cube foot after forcing it to grid.
So if I don't force to grid the lightning looks well.
After forcing it to grid the slopes cause black shadows.

I will try your light options. 
Haven't Tried 
anglesense either, but according to AguirRe it will give a softer, more diffuse lighting effect.

shadows on triangle geometry are always a problem - AFAIK they cannot be solved 100% - but I've never had the problem. So far. 
Too Many Static Entities 
My map compiles with no issues, but when i goto open it with my client i get an error of "too many static entities" any ideas of what this means? 
 
Not to state the obvious, but you've gone over the static entity limit for Quake. You'll either have to reduce the number of static entities in the map or play it on an engine that has a higher limit... 
 
whats the limit then? I'm running ezQuake as a client... I've looked around and most sources said its a limit of 128 is that true? then i noticed a post by rick earlier and by reading his post it said that he has 625 light in his map... how is this possible i think mine is 172 if im not mistaken... 
 
yes, 128 static entities is the limit.

not all light are static entities. essentially, only an entity with a model can be made static, so this only includes flames and torches. normal lights with no entities are not counted.
try to replace your torches with normal lights and use light textures instead if you can. 
 
damn.... kinda defeats the mood of the map im creating.. looks awesome with all the torches... thank you for the help... 
 
one more thing... is the 128 limit going to effect my backpack and flags too? because they have a model attached to the entity... 
 
you could look into other custom engines, i suppose, although curiously, a fair few custom engines which do have bumped up limits still have the old 128 static entity limit.

both fitzquake and aguirRe's glquake allow many more static entities, but as you're using ezquake, you may not be satisfied with those engines because they stick pretty closely to the original glquake. 
 
cross posted, re: 9096

there's 2 types of entities in quake.

static and dynamic. dynamic is most types of entities like monsters, items, doors, triggers, etc. these are also called edicts, and you can have a maximum of 600 edicts in a map.

the only reason torches are made static is because they never move, and never interact with the environment in any way. 
New Stuff Learned Today. 
Correct me if I'm wrong.

1. You can't trigger a trigger_monsterjump.

2. A trigger_once can't have a killtarget or it won't trigger it's actual target?

3. Clip brushes can be part of a func_door and will push monsters.

4. The model limit is 256. 
 
1. nope (trigger_monsterjump has no use function)

2. nope
killtargets are processed first, before targets are.

3. i know it definitely pushes the player, so probably monsters

4. yep 
 
Well, I though clip brushes didn't affect monsters since they won't cross gaps filled with them. Maybe that's a game logic thing though. 
 
that happens for a different reason. ai decides how it moves based on the visual hull (hull 0) while collision is based on the respective hulls (1 and 2). a monster could walk over a clipped service and wouldn't fall, but the ai decides not to. 
 
For a clip brush to be part of a door it seems like the clip brush has to be surrounded by regular brushes, or maybe the door model has to be bounded by real brushes. Something like that. I had a door with two regular brushes at the ends of a long clip brush (looking from above) which pushed some scrags upward and it worked. I removed one of the real brushes and then it didn't work. 
I'm Not Sure 
but i believe that the clip brush must be within the mins/maxs bounding box of whatever bmodel. 
Yeah 
Clip must be 'inside' the normal brush model or they won't collide.

BBOX explanation - the space is defined on the grid with three negative and three positive numbers. so -1 -1 -1, 1 1 1 gives you a 2sq cube.

All objects work like that, including triggers. So don't expect a L-shaped or diagonal trigger to have an Lshaped or diagonal area of effect.

The only trigger that can be triggered in standard quake (I think) is trigger_teleport - useful for the classic black box monster spawning or auto-porting the player when a condition is met (eg. kill an enemy). 
Pre Lauching Elevator 
I made an elevator in the corner of my map to bring you to the top of this little bunker, but it seems to always start moving upwards just before you get on... Is there a way to decrease the 'sensitivity' of it so i can get on first? 
No. 
func_plat activation trigger is based on mins/maxs of the bmodel in question. the only alternative is to use a func_door + trigger_multiple combo instead which would allow you to set a custom trigger size (or change the func_plat). 
GTKRadiant 
This has been covered before I'm sure, probably in this very thread, BUT...

I've downloaded GTKRadiant 1.5 for my Windows BootCamp partition and it's running fine ... except I don't understand where to put my WAD files so it can see them. Any hints? Their documentation is equal parts missing and abysmal. 
 
OK, after reading way back in this thread I see I need to put WADs into Quake/ID1 but that seemed to be crashing GTKRadiant this morning when I tried that on a whim. I guess I'll try it again tonight. Weird. 
Pre Launching Elevator 
It sounds like you're using a door (which is triggered as soon as its touched) instead of a plat (which triggers when you reach it's center).

Give the door a name and make a trigger_multiple to make it start moving. Put the trigger_multiple right on top of the door/plat and make it 32 units smaller in the X and Y directions that way the player will have to be completely on before they touch the trigger.

You'll probably want the delay before reset time on the trigger to be long enough for the door to complete it's travel up and down. 
Why 
does the ai use the visible hull? bug or feature? 
Not Sure 
But its the cause of fish and scrags sometimes going through walls, although the bugs are slightly different. 
Pre Lauching Elevator 
It was an odd shaped platform which seemed to be the issue... So I went with the basic square shaped one instead. 
Like I Was Saying Before 
If your platform was a Z shape for example, then Quake would just draw a big square bounding box for the trigger. Slightly smaller than the Z, but not following the shape. 
 
Sorry for the string of noob-ass questions, but I'd really like to be building something by tonight.

Do GTKRadiant users typically compile from a command line or do you go through the trouble of telling the editor where to find your compile tools? If you go through the trouble, how do you do it? Is it a hassle? 
 
not gtkr, but i use sikkpin's qe3 which is essentially very similar.
i never use the menu system, although i believe it's the same thing. i have one of those gamer keyboards, and i have a macro to compile my map bound to one of the keys.
before i started using qe3 (and before this keyboard) i was using gtkr1.4 and i'd just keep a command prompt open in the background and what i wanted to compile, i'd just switch to it and use the previous command button which would launch a batch file. 
Hmm 
As necros said, just use batch files for compiling, the in editor menu gets a bit trippy when compiling for Q1.

Also, you might want to try using GTK1.4 and mapconv, there's a tutorial how somewhere on necros' site [ http://necros.planetquake.gamespy.com/gtkrq1.html ], the interface/creation flow was changed quite a lot in 1.5, for the worse in my (and a fair few others') opinion. You may prefer the 1.5 interface, but I'd suggest trying out both versions and making your own call... 
 
I set up the in-editor menu. It's pretty easy, you just edit the XML file sitting in the q1.game folder. The one thing I can't figure out how to do is copy the BSP to the right directory and start the game up. So I need a command line open for that regardless...

Oh, and here's a story for the stupid. I set everything up last night and I made a small test room with a light. It compiled, loaded into the game, everything was grand. I then booted back into OSX to resize the partition I gave Windows because it was too small (FYI, 15GB is too small for Windows Vista and a Quake editor). While doing this, I misunderstood something and ended up killing the Windows partition entirely.

So ... I re-created it and reinstalled everything AGAIN. Only this tims I allocated 32GB. Let's hope that'll be enough. 
Yeah 
windows partitions need about 10gb (or more maybe, for vista?) just for the OS itself and then you're gonna want at least 2-4gb for your paging file.
you never really notice that when you're setting it up on a native windows machine, but when you're splitting between mac and windows, it becomes noticeable. mind you, mac isn't exactly a lightweight either; i spent a couple of days cleaning out all the useless software on my macbook, but i needed about 80gb for my macos partition to be able to work comfortably.

anyway, on the subject of gtkr, i personally hated the 1.5 version of the program. they changed fundamental UI stuffs in there which made it a lot slower to use (eg: operations that used to take 1 key press now would take 2), so even though 1.5 supports q1 natively, i found it harder to use than to just save a q3 .map and have a batch file that runs a converter first (aguirRe's, i believe, is the most up-to-date) and then compiles.

as for batch files, just make a bunch of them (for different compile levels) and put them on your start menu (or get rocketdock which is essentially the mac dock for windows) and you can just click the appropriate one and never have to touch a command prompt. 
Lol 
My c: is 80gb 
Another Vote For 1.4 Here. 
Yes, I'm gonna keep on beating that dead old horse. 
Linux? 
I'm thinking about installing Quake and GtKRadiant on this new Linux box I've got.

Can anybody point me in the right direction? 
Netradiant 
the gtkradiant based off 1.5 that the darkplaces/warsow? guys use. 
FitzQuake 0.85 Question 
Is there a way to make it so I can launch FitzQuake to check out my level without it resizing every window on my desktop? Or is this just a Window wart that I have to accept? 
 
OK, I guess the answer is to run GTKRadiant in a non-maximized state. That seems to reduce the amount of swearing I need to do each time I test the map... 
Willem: 
if it's fitzquake 0.85, you can run it windowed but with a -height and -width equal to your desktop -- this will fill the screen completely but without your desktop actually switching modes, which might help. 
 
Ahh. that's something I hadn't thought of. OK, will try, thanks! 
Dumb Simple Question 
setting sunlight?

good value for day time light?

I don't understand the angle situation. I've just never bothered to. Can someone give a simple explanation of how they'll work? 
Ofhand 
No, but just read AguirRe's docs:

http://user.tninet.se/~xir870k/

More and more concise information than you'll need. 
Offhand, Even 
 
Nice 
Thanks Ijed. I can't believe I haven't read through that stuff already!
Kind of confused about the implementation of 'second suns'.
My basic understanding is that I just put _sunlight2 in worldspawn with a lowish value and it will lessen ugly shadows? 
_sunlight 
or take one sun and lighten those ugly shadows with a light.exe -light 15 so the deep darkened places keep their luminance for a degree of 15. Helpfull, while it diminish placing lots of extra lights.
^v^ 
Yeah 
it's really not _sunlight2, it's _sunlightarea_minlight.
it's a different minlight for areas that the sun hits. 
Oh Okay. 
Thanks guys, I think I actually get this now. 
Hammer - Selection In 3d Window Issue With Catalyst 
I confirm that this solution to Hammer 3d window selection issue works:
http://www.celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=4&start=8179

I have put this file into the hammer directory and the problem on my laptop is fixed.
http://rapidshare.com/files/138119760/atioglxx.dll

Great! I can continue now. 
 
I just wish there was a similar fix for Nvidia cards. 
I Think It's The Same Dll I Posted A While Back 
It works, but if I look at a face and not all of its verticies are visible in the window then the projection screws up, aligning the last UV coordinate to any other visible vert.

That's a bad description. Basically the UV's are all fucked up. That's better.

And Orl, there will be such a fix for your card, AFAIK Nvidia is much better supported, although to be honest I didn't know there was a WC problem.

What the DLL does is disable stuff, you'll notice there wasn't one there beforehand. WC checks if one exists and if so uses it in favour of the onboard library.

Does anyone have the knowledge + inclination to make one that forces software mode on? In WC1.6a there was an option for this :P 
Ijed 
Maybe I don't understand the problem with UV's that you described, but try to enable Texture Filtering in 3d options window. After enabling this option the textures look ok for me. 
Will Give It A Try 
If it works my mapping time will double. 
 
And Orl, there will be such a fix for your card, AFAIK Nvidia is much better supported, although to be honest I didn't know there was a WC problem.

Unfortunately, I very highly doubt there will be a fix. Basically the problem is, using any Nvidia drivers after version 182.50 in Worldcraft 1.6a in software mode, the 3D view is completely garbled, making it impossible to see anything.

And yet, even the older Worldcraft 1.1a's 3D view works perfectly fine with the latest Nvidia drivers... strange.

For whats its worth, I'm running Vista SP2 with an 8800gt. 
Ankh You Are Legend 
That works; turning off filter textures. Can't believe after pissing about with all those different (non) solutions I missed that option.

So the dll + filter off solves it for me - thanks!

Orl, have you tried 3.3? It might sound like a ballache to switch, but the texture lock alone makes it worth it. The renderer changed a fair bit (which is why I and others have had problems) but maybe its worth a try so you can map. 
Speaking Of 
textures and wc 3.3

does anyone else have problems converting texture files (not just because of overly large textures) with Bakers wad converter?

I think RT23 had some issues with that too - or maybe he helped me with mine... It's all foggy... ...what year is this? 
I Think I Converted Some For You 
But the wads you wanted were weird

I never had that problem until I tried to convert that WAD which you were saying you couldnt manage.

Cant remember if I had to use texmex or wally as well as the supplied util. Its all on this thread somewhere, lol!

Most textures convert fine, it would seem to be some wads which dont (!) 
Wrong Quake Lighting In Wolrdcraft ? 
I hope somebody here can help me.I have make some small maps and trying different stuff they compile right and start. But the lighting isn't just right... I don't know what's wrong. I downloaded the original quake one maps in a .map format and there is the same problem.

The map E1M1.bsp for example. Some corners and the first double door left is way to black. On the door you can't even see the textures....
Many places are pretty same as in the game but when i started the original map in the Pak0.pak not through Worldcraft everthings is normal.


I use fitzquake085.exe for the game and the Quakeadapter tools for compiling and testing.

What tha hell am i doing wrong ???
Please reply cause i want to make a real map and not test maps anymore, and that's the only problem that prevents me from getting starting.

sorry for bad english i am from germany! 
Heh Dont Worry Man! 
Open the .map file in a text editor, find some of the light entities and copy the text and post it here.

or upload one of your map files and ill take a look if you like.

Also take a screenshot of the Run Map window you get in Worldcraft when you press F9 "to run the map" and another screenshot of the "tools -> options -> Build Programs" window.
Seeing those might help too..... 
Lights 
Some corners and the first double door left is way to black

Maybe you use the wrong light options?
With Aguier's compilers you should have good results with let's say:
light.exe -dist 0.6 -range 0.6 -light 15 -soft

http://user.tninet.se/~xir870k/ 
Yeah 
the converter doesn't convert any of my wads. I could try to convert id.wad and it wouldn't convert.

actually...

"Error creating HLWAD: c:\program files\worldcraft\textures\id_base.hlwad ... details ...No log exists."

So, I guess I'll have to convert them with Texmex? I don't really even know how to do that - anyone have links to more info on this?

Oh, and good luck bobbbybob - i'm sure you'll figure it out if you follow Ricky's advice. 
Pretty Weird Man! 
I dont really understand how the tool was made.
I mean what is .NET framework, cause I dont know if the tool uses anything like that or even anything different or what-haveyou.
Its pretty weird that it dont work for you.
I have loads of hlwads on my HDD.

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=rjm5lvzf3i3

If you would like me to mail you any of them I will do happily :D 
Drew 
I get the same error. No solution yet.

BobbbyBob, post a screenshot - map data could help, but it sounds like you've got something badly configured somewhere in WC.

The screenshot will clarify the problem. 
Ijed, Drew ... 
"Error creating HLWAD: c:\program files\worldcraft\textures\id_base ...""

Are either of you using Vista or Windows 7?

The qconverge command line utility expects to be able to write to the folder it is in.

And come to think of it, the QuakeAdapter expects to be able to create a .bat file to execute.

I know with Vista the idea of having write-access to any given place isn't exactly a certainty. 
I'm Using Valve Hammer Editor 
and converting txtures via texmex, don't have a texture problems at all,

maybe it's time to switch to hammer editor to you guys? ;) 
Yeah 
Vista. It occurred to me that the security crap is most likely blocking the thing from working. Turning it off spams error messages so I was about to try converting in a 'non-secure' (aka 'non-fucked') folder last night but got caught up in something else. 
A Little Insight In How The VIS Process Works 
Might be helpful to some for a better understanding why things sometimes take so long.

Courtesy of BJP:

OK, this is just my interpretation of how vis works, it may not be correct.

Apart from its normal bsp building from the map, qbsp also generates the portal (prt) file. This is done by dividing all the empty volumes (player space) in the map into smaller pieces, called vis leafs. The more complex solid architecture, the more leafs you get.

These leafs are just convex polyhedrons (like brushes) with at least four sides (the simplest pyramid). All the sides of the leafs are the vis portals ("doors between leafs"), but I'm not sure if the sides against the solids are also counted or it's just the sides between the leafs.

When calculating visibility, all these leafs have to be checked against each other to determine which ones that are visible from a certain leaf through all of its portals. It's assumed that the player can be in any of the leafs (no matter how small they are) and look in any direction.

To make things worse, visibility is checked twice for each portal, one in each direction (back and forth). I don't know why this is.

It should be noted that this "leaf visibility" calculation is a simplified variant of the more realistic point-to-point visibility, which would probably take even longer time since the position granularity is higher. The leaf visibility method also increases engine overdraw, i.e. it'll have to render stuff even if it's actually occluded, thereby increasing r_speeds.

Since all leafs have to be checked against each other, this is a variant of [at least] an "n x n" (n being # portals) problem, which will scale very badly as n grows. This is the main reason why more complex maps take so extremely long to fullvis.

In fastvis, vis first makes some simple analysis and determines which leafs that can be trivially rejected as being invisible and all others are marked as "potentially visible", i.e. need more calculations using fullvis. If you just run a fastvis, all the potentially visible leafs will be rendered by the engine as visible, slowing things down. When building a map to be fullvis-time-effective, it's probably vital that fastvis can trivially reject as much as possible.

In fullvis, vis goes on to the significantly more complex algorithm, where it "flows" through all the potentially visible paths, checking if there's a way through. This work is divided so the simpler paths are calculated first, since they will probably be used in the more convoluted paths later. This is the main reason why vis slows down so much while running, it has left all the heavy parts for later.

The division also lets vis manage the multithreaded aspect by having several threads doing different paths (but still the simpler ones first). I can't say though if it's guaranteed that all simpler paths have been done by all threads when the more complex ones are about to begin. In my version (and most others), that's a non-issue, since the paths are all done sequentially by one thread in the right order.

With increasing # leafs and portals (which you can read at the beginning of the prt file), you can probably realize that the amount of calculations grows very quickly. 100 portals will generate 40,000 "work items", for 1,000 portals it'll be 4,000,000, 10,000 portals is 400,000,000 and so on. I don't want to think about 100,000 portals ...
 
Re Light Problem 
Hi thanks for the answers.
Ricky, here are the screenshots and compile logs.
http://rapidshare.com/files/302918736/quake_screenshots.zip

With light.exe -dist 0.6 -range 0.6 -light 15 -soft it's like no rad / fullbright.

But I didnt' know that you can configure the light.exe thanks for that info MadDog. Maybe someone know how to set my light settings right.If not, i will put some more light enities and a higher brightness value in my maps. This will work i think...

The lighting in the compiled originals quake maps have irritated me. 
OK, Weird. 
Well I need that actual light entity information, you have sent me the information for somebrushes with a light texture on them.
The light entities will be at the bottom of the document (the .map file that is) and will look like:

{
"classname" "light"
"light" "200"
}

As for the command line options well I would use (for a map the size you have) -extra4 and nothing else.

But yeah you can use a "wait" key in your entities to make the light spread out further or be more concentrated.

A wait of >1 will make the light more concentrated, i.e.

{
"classname" "light"
"light" "400"
"wait" "2.5"
"origin" "blah, blah, blah"
}

And a wait of <1 will make it go further, i.e.

{
"classname" "light"
"light" "200"
"wait" "0.3"
"origin" "blah, blah, blah"
}

You can also use "delay", but Im no expert on that one. I seem to remember delay of 2 being nice effect. 
The Screenshot Solves It 
That's a door that's fullblack? If it a door or other entity (func_wall or whatever) then it fullblack because the origin is outside of the world.

This means that it doesn't start inside the vis'd (lit) space.

Select it, the red X in the centre is the origin - if that's outside of the lit space (inside a wall, like yours seems to be) then the whole thing won't be lit at all. So make a recess for it to fit into or make it smaller so the origin is inside the world.

It's worth remembering that although entities look like they're normally brushwork in many ways they behave like point entities.

In other words, they only care about where their origin is when it comes to light and vis. 
S S 
Those were missing from the above post.

Also 'brush entities' as opposed to 'entities'.

Having a baby is the greatest thing in the world, but your head is all over the place for lack of sleep. 
. . . And 
Its an optimisation (AFAIK) of AguirRe's that the compilers don't light all brush entities no matter where they are, like id's did.

Definately a plus, but also shows another b0rky map feature common in the originals.

Mind you, very easy to be aloof ten years+ after the fact. 
Thanks for the help! The last post is what i wanted to know. I found it weird that the original quake maps had different lighting when starting in Worldcraft. Thought it was a problem in my Worldcraft configuration or something.But that explains it all.

And i am not sure if you notice that the in_game_screenshot.JPG was a screenshot of the original E1M1.bsp not mine small testing maps.

Anyway Big thanks! 
Yeah 
That's why I said that AguirRe (who's compilers come bundled with the wc3.3 adapter) made optimisations that id didn't.

If you used their compilers it'd work without showing the door black but take alot longer. and run very slightly slower in game I think as well. 
Congrats Ijed! 
you lucky father and happy mother.

apparently the same goes for a good map:
Having a map is the greatest thing in the world, but your head is all over the place for lack of exit. 
Thanks 
silver_key-gold_key-exit.

change-feed-sleep.

Now that's a nerd comparison. 
Pak File Programs 
PakExplorer: 'explorer' type view, limited to 8 character filenames. sucks.

PakScape: 'explorer' type view, not limited to 8 character filenames. converts all upper case chars to lower case and progs.dat is case sensitive. sucks.

DZip: not limited to 8 chars. doesn't change char case from upper to lower. is NOT an 'explorer' type view, just a long list of crap so very difficult to organize pak files. (as it's primarily for zipping demos anyway).
sucks.

are there any other pak file programs? one that doesn't limit file chars to 8 or change the case around and that has a proper way of displaying files so as to be able to organize things well? 
Heh 
That is one thing QuArK can do very well. 
 
there is a pak plug-in for total commander. It satisfies my needs for exploring pak files. 
 
i was under the impression that both of those could only open and extract files from paks? 
 
Nope, QuArK let's you save just fine. 
 
I have just tested and the tc plugin is creating pak's as well. Very straightforward 
Necros 
Pakker 
 
thanks :) i wasn't able to check myself today.
wasn't able to find pakker though, but i should be able to use quark as i've already got that. 
Pakker 
Wad Problems 
so, i made a few pathetic textures and im trying to get texmex to put them in a wad, like i did once before i think, but now when ever i try to import it gives me "was ignored" on all the textures

the textures are in .bmp format and i believe they are 8 bit color

...i don't get it any clues? 
 
i remember that happening, and don't really recall why it did, but i'm pretty sure if you convert your bitmaps into 24bit targas, the problem should go away.

it might have to do with the 8bit bitmaps not having the correct palette (it's not enough for it to be 256 colours, it has to be the correct 256 colours). 
 
Are the bitmaps compressed? That might be it. 
Copy 
Your texture, then 'paste image as new mip' in TexMex. 
Ok Thanks 
those both worked :D

... i don't know how to compress bitmaps so i dont think i can decompress them :S 
Brush Heaps 
I'm working on a terrain map. I use triangle shapes to lift the corners to equal heights and then use force to grid 1 to fit the brush.

Sometimes the brush takes the grid on a counter line and it is possible to move the brush back into its original position, gaining a clean, converted brush.

Othertimes it gets out of grid and causes the vieuw to get out of position.
http://members.home.nl/gimli/align.jpg

The first method , without forcing to grid, brings a well compiled map with errors, caused by the compiler with warnings and heling points. But a fitting brush order.

The second , with force to grid and reposition, brings a misaligned map with less errors and a better compile log, and a rather blurry brush fit.

How to avoid the process and which would be best suitable?
I never minded thes misalignements, I'm already glad the compiler takes it. But then again, the small difference could change vistime considerably. 
 
when i make terrain in qe3, i just do my terrain mapping in 3d view after copying and pasting all the triangular shaped brushes i need.
i keep the grid on 16 (or 8 if i need fine details) and just pull individual vertices up or down depending on what i need in the 3d view.
this usually creates good results for me. 
Actually 
It would be really ace if editors allowed you to select say, 4 brushes and lock 4 vertices which all interleap with a simple keyboard shortcut, then you just drag the locked vertices into the appropriate position as one, and then "ungroup" them. 
Yeah 
or when you rotate a group of brushes. why do editors persist in snapping vertices to different points when they were initially sharing the same one...

also, why does firefox keep underlining 'vertices' like i'm spelling it wrong. what a bastard. 
Heaps 
As I read, I think my failure is caused by using the 1 grid option in force to grid. It turns out to become a disordered 0.x grid position that hardly can be healed. 
I Dont Know How You Managed To Find Such A Problem 
Which editor do you use? I forget..... 
 
your terrain generator program should automatically snap to grid too, so i don't know why it would change again if you snap to grid in the editor. 
Snap To 1... 
... it could be that, unless you are zoomed into the maximum, your manipulation on the different brushes is just not lining up and not that it is actually off-grid.

I would not go below 8 for snapping unless I was trying to fit the terrain to an object that was not on the same grid reference, and then I would definitely zoom right in.

I use BspEditor and can zoom to 1600%. At that level it needs a very distinct mouse movement to move one unit and snapping acurately is easy. At the standard zoom (75%) it is impossible to line up brushwork in single unit movements even though the editor is 'snapping'. 
Grid Account 
I use Quark63. It took quiet long before I could sahape a terrain map.
I don't use a terraineditor. Maybe a silly way I come up with.

I started with a triangle brush. Made it as precise I could. As long nothing happens to the brush it stands on grid with integers.

Then I turn the grid to 1 and force the outcorners to the 1 grid point. Of course the origin of the brush gets disordered so I have to force the whole brush into grid again.
That's my startpoint with terrain mapping and it compiled well.
Now I can make a terrainmap of all the triangle brushes. All goes well untill I lift the outpoints of the brush to level it with another brush.

From there the two outcomes appear in Quark.

Some brushes after distorted flip to a decimal but after resizing the brush with 1 the force to grid puts it exact 1 gridpoint aside. So I can easily rearange it untill it fits its origin.

Others get distorted and will never line up with the others. They will fit on x and y-axe but not in the lenght.

So I was thinking. Maybe I shoul force to grid only on a 8 or 16 grid. 
 
The wonders of QuArK. This is just normal behaviour from my experience... 
Terrain 
I am no terrain expert and it is difficult to make suggestions without knowing what you are trying to achieve. But... if you are doing anything on a large scale, then use a terrain generator and do all (most) of the modelling in that and then import it into the editor.

I did a large lump of terrain in FMB-BDG in the form of a cavern. It was over 1000 units in each direction made up a few thousand triangles of 64 units. It took about 30 minutes to do in the generator - I dread to think what it would have taken in the editor.

http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/5075/fmbbdg16bu3.jpg

You can probably make it out in this screenshot.

When I had finished, I ran the BspEditor Brush Merge and got it down to about 900 brushes (from memory). 
Well I Use The Folloing Method: 
1 - select the brush tool, set it to "wedge" shaped (triangular prism)

2 - select a suitable texture

3 - quicky make about 4 or 5 wedge shaped brushes

4 - in the "top" view I use the vertex editing tool to move the corners of the brushes into whatever shape I want, usually on a grid not smaller than 16x16

5 - I switch to a "side" view and move the verticle edges of the prisms up and down to shape my terrain

Notes:

Nothing ever goes off grid. The editor is set to "snap to grid" and whatever the grid size may be, the points of my brushes snap to them.

Aligning the textures better is as easy as selecting my brushes and setting the attributes back to 0 (i.e. rotation, movement x, movement y, x scale, y scale), then click a button which says "to world", which tends to look OK.

You can use this method to make overhanging rocks and other intricate shapes.

It is quite time consuming but looks good in the end! 
Terrain 
I've just checked that old map and the cavern is 3000 x 3000 x 800 high. 
Is there anything similar to aquire's engine for q2? I was messing with q2 map, just made the first area, nothing special so far, 2 entities (start and light), but when i load it to the engine, the game just freezes and i see q2 using 99% of cpu. Wtf? 
 
i couldn't get the standard q2 engine to run either. there's quake2 xp and quake2 evolved that i know of. 
 
Quake2 envolved doesn't run it either 
I Want To Know 
but i dont want to peruse 9192 posts for the answer

how do you make monsters not move or attack even with the player right in front?

i tired clip brushes and making secret trigger button but those didn't work :? 
 
Put them inside a func_wall made out of clip brushes, but whose corners (BBOX extents) have a tiny normal brush inside.

Those normal brushes tell Quake that the clip brushes are there.

Then remove the func_wall when you want them to be active.

Never actually tried it, but should work. 
Hmm 
are the non clip brushes supposed to be in the Func_wall or out of it, because it dosent work when there in it and when they're out i get this error:

*** ERROR 13: Line 2131: Entity with no valid brushes or textures

1 warning

Elapsed time : 0:00

Peak memory used : 1.8 MB

!-!!-!!-!!-!!-!!-!!-!!-!!-!!-!!-!!-!!-!!-!!-!!-!!-!!-!!-!!-!!-!!-!!-!!-!!-!!-!
Build failed, because it did not create the (+BSP) file: C:\Users\alex\Desktop\q
uake\tmpQuArK\.\maps\mstart.BSP 
 
That's why he said to include a tiny, real brush somewhere within the func_wall entity. Quake won't complain if you have at least something in the entity with a texture on it. Hide it in the map itself by making sure it's inside of a wall or something. 
Yep 
 
Circular Jump Pads 
Remember those wicked jumppads in some Q3 maps that had you fly in a curve? The same is possible in Quake. Pretty obvious, but I only just thought of it again.

Take a look at this test map: http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/misc/pushtest.zip

The trick basically involves pushing the player towards a curved clip surface that determines the direction of the flight. The clip curve has to be fairly smooth so the player doesn't fall down prematurely. In the test map the small jump (1/4 of a circle) has 8 faces, the large one (3/4 of a circle) has 24. The map is pretty crude (but you'll get the idea) - it takes some experimenting with the pitch angle and the push speed. The larger such a push is (radius and distance), the uglier it becomes, because the clip wall and the pitch have to be a lot higher.

Now there aren't really that many situations where such a push would be useful. Imagine perhaps a castle with push-connected towers. Or a deathmatch map, although then one has to take into cosideration that NQ and QW handle the speed values in different ways.

At any rate, such a push can at least make for some funny wheee! effects. 
Hmm 
What about making a map where you fly along wind tunnels between different rooms and use keys to unlock new tunnels? Mebe with some water. And in brown... 
Like... 
... antedeluvian map ? 
QuArK And Changing Entities 
i has...have these new stuff in my progs that need entities placements on the map, but im finding that when i add an entitiy like ambient_drone i can't changeit, to something like ambient_front242. but i remeber doing it before somehow :S

the only solution i have is to edit it in the .map with a text editor but i find this somewhat of an out of the way solution

...i wonder if this makes sense 
Or 
why don't you just add the entity,
click on the object list,
and change your classname to monster_xxx? 
Oh...your Progs.dat 
search and replace function? 
Ya You Had It 
quark won't let me change classnames and i don't know why is what i meant with that paragraph and a half

and its kind of annoying because i could do it before i think 
 
QuArK lets you change classnames easily. Either slow double left click in the tree or edit in the detail view. 
State File Does Not Match Portal File 
A VIS error I could not find any documentation about. Does anyone here know what it means ?
It's a real error, not just a warning, no VIS is preformed. 
Ron: 
probably vis is trying to finish a partially-completed job, but you've changed the bsp since then. I think you'd just need to delete the state file, but i don't know what the filename would be (never used that feature myself.) 
 
I didn't know about this feature at all.
Anyway, reading your reply made try and just rename the map,that worked ! Thanks !
I've just switched to the WC 3.33 version so I might come back with some dumb questions later ... 
Surpsisingly... 
... aguirRe's tool tip does not mention this error :/ 
State File 
I think you just have to delete the vis file to that map your compiling and aguirre's vis will make a new one. I get this while updating and changing texture names in a wad file. 
Monster Count 
While betatesting my level I came up to some errors I forgot how to avoid them.

First there's the monster count eror. I assumed they were caused by the fish, with its double swimmonster_start in the qc. Strangley it didn't help help deleting it, because I still get a double fish count.

Second is the strange habbit of some zombies.
Their heads seems to run on while being killed, which is rarely difficult to trace while they're in slime.
I got the effect earlier with bones. I can't find a reason for it. 
Breakable Crates 
Do I remember breakable (not exploding) crates for Q1?

If so, does anyone know where I can get the qc/mdls from, if available? 
Quoth's Got Breakable Crates... 
Mounds don't :-) 
Extras 
Supports as well - Quoth's are simpler to use though. 
Crates 
Quoth code not been released so I'll look at Extras 
See If There's Been An Update On The Source Chode Thread 
Ahem.

What extras has is model swapping and emissions. So you can swap a mesh in the map for a broken one (external bsp) and spawn a spray of emissions at the same time - these can be sprites, models or other external bsps.

It's not really tied up into a ease of use package though - you'd need a few seperate entities for it to work. 
Although 
Emissions are well worth having - a very powerful tool. 
Mike 
Do you want our source? It's got extras inside, but also alot of other stuff. We're not supporting it (heavily commented) though, so you're probably better off with base extras. 
Ijed 
I appreciate the offer but I really only wanted breakablecrates for one specific event and it would have been easy to add it into my own modified progs.dat. Also, I don't want to go the effort of creating the models and things.

I'll just have to think of another option. 
 
mike, what's your email address? you don't have it listed here. 
Necros 
mikewoodham at msn dot com

Funny, I've been coming here since the one before but never actually 'joined'. 
I'm Looking For A 
mapconv by SleewalkR

any links? 
Necros 
Oooops...

I just realised that the e-mail sender will show as Dooby Pollocks instead of me, so your filters may think it is spam. 
Hehe 
it wasn't caught as spam, but it did confuse me for a second. :P 
Bspinfo 
what are the references to see if a bsp is vised level 4? 
Or 
is it a stupid question? 
Is That Bspinfo.exe ? 
How do you run this program? I never used it yet. 
Its A Comand Line Utility 
So stick your bspinfo.exe and your bsp file in some folder on your c:, take a command prompt into that dir and type:

bspinfo mapname

Cant remember if it tells what level vis was run at, but it definately tells you the size of the visdata 
Okay Thanks 
Will look into it 
Madfox 
I didn't see any -level 4 confirmation in bspinfo.exe, but while vis.exe is running you should see:
testlevel = 4
...and you'll have it! 
Yes 
bspinfo formally gives the same info that has bsplog.txt has, only there's no map to compile.

I wondered if there was a way to see how a level was vised. 
There Is: 
r_showtris 
Fine 
that's what I was looking for. 
Spy: 
I found Sleepy's Java Mapconverter in the devkit of tigger's unfinished "industri" project. Link:

http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/industri/mapcon_java.zip

Quite a useful tool, that.

Oh, and about breakables: Nehahra had breakables, lots of them. You can trigger em, give em health, have them throw many kinds of rubble, etc. func_breakable, func_sobject, and func_mindcrime were the classes, iirc. Amazingly I still have the Neh QuakeC source in a folder. Since Planetquake now sleeps with the Rotfishes, I'll up it somewhere (quaketastic), if anyone wants it. It looks extremely old (dated 2001) so I doubt Mindcrime would mind. 
But 
they can't be walked on, only downside. 
Grahf 
thank you. 
Grahf 
I would be interested in the source for Nehahra - if you can let me know when you are uploading it, I will watch out. 
Here We Go 
http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/single_player/mods/NehQCsrc.zip

Glad that my obsessive packrat tendencies came in handy. 
Huh 
Didn't know it had been released. 
Ah 
It's pascal, I remember the dev tool stuff.

Can it be c+p'd into regular Qc? Not enough of a coder to know. 
There Is A Readme File In There 
And it says:

More than a year after the release of Nehahra, I am releasing the "QuakeC" source code to Nehahra. I have placed QuakeC in quotes because it is not what you would call true QuakeC, but a Pascal-Hybrid. The compiler/decompiler was created by Armin Rigo, a set of utilities called ACCQC.

I have included in this archive REACC.EXE, which will compile a progs.dat from the .QC files. The error messages are in French. Sorry. :)


So yeah. Good luck with that, guys. Pretty sure this came from planetquake.com/nehahra at some point in the distant past. 
GTKradiant + Darkplaces 
Hello all,

I've been itching to create a map using the darkplaces engine, and since gtkradiant 1.5 has this option available 'out of the box' I went ahead and used this instead of Worldcraft 3.3.

I can compile a map and run it no problem, but here is my dilemma:

Not all of the textures load into gtkradiant. I've downloaded and installed the
rygel-dp-texturepack-high.pk3 and it is installed to:

C:\Program Files\Quake\Id1

The textures show up fine in darkplaces and in dpmod but only a certain few are showing up
in gtkradiant, and it is only like 5 or so that show up.

Can someone please provide me with specific directions on how to get all the textures to
load or show up in gtkradiant 1.5?

If I have to, I would be willing to use an older version of gtkradiant as long as I had
specific directions on how to set up darkplaces in it.

Thanking you in advance,

Protocol01 
Doesnt 
Doesnt Radiant require a .WAD file in order to view the textures? Rygels pack would be irrelevant especially in the instance of any editor because the textures which are "replaced" and "upgraded" by that pack all come from the originals which came from the WAD format used to create Quake.

The bottom line is that if you dont have the Quake wad file loaded into your editor then you wont be able to compile maps with all of the textures available from Quake.

The wads are somewhere within:
http://www.quaddicted.com/wads/

probably quake.wad or quake1.wad

The ting is there are loads of wads there for the Quake engine, and may have not been "re-made" by someone and have no hi-rez replacement. But that shouldnt meen you shouldnt use them because you can achieve many different themes with these wads and you dont have to worry that they wont load up in the end user's engine of choice. If you wanna use mega-hi-rez textures then use Source or Cryengine or Unreal Engine 3 or IdTech4 or something.......

[rant]
Merry Christmas BTW ;) 
 
i think its http://www.quaddicted.com/wads/id.wad that you need to load into your Radiant editor to work

bare in mind I have never used that editor, I always used Worldcraft, but I would have thought that this form of texture handling would be fundamental 
Matter Of Preference, Sorta 
Personally I find GTKRadiant 1.5 to be stupid and terrible, whereas version 1.4 is excellent. As you have discovered, Protocol01, 1.5 has a real problem loading external texture sets. I don't know why. If you had Quake 1 .wads, then they should in fact load from the id1 directory.

Version 1.4 cannot natively load .wads but it has no problem with TGA's and JPG's. Seriously, try exactly what you were doing except using 1.4 and you'll probably have no problem.

Have a look at this guide for a reference on setting up Radiant for Q1:
http://industri.sourceforge.net/howto.php

Hmm, Ricky is probably right though, that you need to texture your map with the original quake101.wad. Then if there are TGA textures in the appropriate game directory with the same name as ones in the map's BSP, they will be replaced at runtime. The BSP needs those texture names and coordinates so it knows what to replace, and the ones from rygel's pack are far too big to fit into the bsp anyway.

Unless... what exactly do you mean by "mapping for darkplaces?" This has always kinda confused me. Which features and game are you trying to use? Cuz if you were trying to use Q3 or HL bsp support, then a lot of what I just said would be irrelevant. 
 
Thank you RickyT23 and thank you Grahf both for helping me. I guess I just assumed that radiant would have been able to read directly from the pk3 file, I didn't know I was going to have to have the .wad file. I see now that mapping for Quake 1 is VERY different than mapping for quake 3 arena. >.<

As for darkplaces, I mean that I was trying to make a Quake 1 map that could be used with the darkplaces engine.

I will try what you all suggested and go from there, thanks again and Merry Christmas all! 
Let Me Explain Things A Little Further 
GTKRadiant 1.4 has a variety of game packs for Q3-engined games, but none for Q1. In the guide I linked to in my previous post, what you are basically doing is building a Q1 game pack from scratch and script files to trick the editor. The single most important change is in the .game file, "default_scale=1" instead of .5 as is used in Q3. You still don't get .wad loading, so you export that to jpg/tga and load those instead. Then after making a map, you run the .map through a map converter to get it into Q1 .map format so that your compile tools can read it. It's all kind of a hack, and adds several extra steps to the mapping process, but it does work.

Radiant absolutely can read and load .pk3's from the base game directory, assuming the directory structure is laid out like Q3's. This is how Radiant loads external textures and models, after all.

GTKRadiant 1.5 changed all this by using a totally different (xml-based) file format for the scripts, game packs, map format, etc. There is a Quake 1 game pack, which allows for .wad loading, but I think how it works is that if you are in this mode, it will not load jpg/tga textures. Also, GTKRadiant 1.5 is just a crappier editor generally, that messed up the clipping modes, vertex editing, and brush manipulation compared to the glorious perfection of version 1.4. Gee, I'm not biased at all, am I.

If all this sounds horribly roundabout and complicated (and it kinda is), there is a simpler way. A Q1-specific version of Radiant, developed by Sikkpin, that is based on the original opensourced QE4 editor that id used to make Quake 2. So basically you get all the goodness of oldschool Radiant style, with native Q1 .wad loading support and none of the added cruft like curve patches that is useless for Q1 editing.

Link should be somewhere in this thread:
http://www.celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=60225

Something else you might look into is guides on Nexuiz mapping, which uses the Darkplaces engine. Nexuiz mappers use a fork of Radiant called "NetRadiant," and I don't really know how it's different because I've never used it. However I do know Nezuiz maps usually have externally loaded jpg/tga textures, so you could probably find some info in that community on how to make sure they show up in a map, which directory to put them in, etc. 
 
Gee, I'm not biased at all, am I.
you may be biased, but you aren't alone.

the 1.5 interface is overall slower and clunkier requiring more keypresses to achieve the same goal as in 1.4.

i believe the intent behind the 1.5 changes was to make it more like a professional 3d package. ironically, i felt the changes moved it farther away (i use 3ds max). 
 
Grahf,

Thank you for the link and information. It was very insightful. I hope to get radiant setup soon.


Radiant 1.5 really sucks in my opinion, they keep messing up all of the features and usefulness, now it is more complicated to get things done, and I'm going to uninstall it and just use an older version.

Thanks guys. 
Willem 
Any idea what magic do I have to do to get UnrealED (for UT3) to properly take advantage of 4 cores on my new i5 750 rig? For some reason, it only ever seems to use just 1 (even when doing a level build) and I am absolutely sure I read that UnrealED does scale well with multiple cores. 
 
It scales to multiple cores during lighting rebuilds via Lightmass but UT3 doesn't support that. UDK would though... 
Hammer 3.4 And ATI Fixed? Maybe 
Have an ATI Radeon HD 2400 Series. So have the no select in 3D window bug with Hammer 3.4.
Just gave the new ATI driver a try. ATI Catalyst 9.12 Driver XP x64. Seems to be working. 
Refreshing Mapping Skills... 
Wow, I never thought the quake mapping community was still kicking. I've decided to finish my old quake1 DM level which has been sitting on my HD since early 2003. It's a great and pleasant surprise to see there are still enthusiasts to share mapping experiance with :D

Anyway, as I'm trying to relearn everything I've stumbled across an issue. I cannot get the teleporter to work. Everything seems to be correct but I get this error message when loading the level.

Object error in info_teleport_destination:
No targetname

In the map file I have:

Target_teleporter
Target tele1

and

Info_teleport_destination
Targetname tele1

I use GTK radiant 1.2.x something and Sleepwalkers mapconv tool.

Any ideas?

And a happy new year to all of you :D 
I Think Its 
"classname" "trigger_teleport"
"target" "XXXXX" 
Also... 
Make sure it's all lowercase 
Got It... 
Human error this time :P
Thanks for the replys.

And while I'm at it I might just throw you another question :) I want to make a lift that travels up only when a button is pressed. I get everything to work, but the lift starts behaving differently when connecting the func_button to the func_plat obj. Without the button connected the lift starts in "down" mode and raises when a player walks over it. However, when the button is connected the lift starts in the "up" mode. Then goes down when I trigger the button. AND after that it starts behaving as if it wasnt connected to the button. wtf?!

Any help here would be appreciated. I know it's possible to do this :) For example it works in the "Pinion1" map.

Thanks again guys. 
Ziffon 
you have to use func_door instead, not a func_plat 
Yeah 
You have to have a door which travels "up", cant remember the exact map file key/value of the top of my head.

You can have it travel a negatve or positive value "up" to 256 or 512 units. And theres a spawnflag for "toggle" (1 press, door opens, another press it will close). An you can link as many buttons or triggers to it as you like :D 
*theres A Maximum Value 
its either 256 or 512 - thats what I meant 
Huh? 
A door can move as far as you want - there is no maximum value. The distance is determined by its "lip" value. 
Fixed! 
thx for the quick response mate.

Sorry for spamming the board but any ideas on why I cant get the quad to spawn in? I use the "item_artifact_super_damage".

Also, while I'm at it.. the map is pretty much ready for some testing. Back in the days it was pretty easy to get some help with that, but how do you suggest I go about it today. Can I use this board somehow?

Cheers 
Yeah 
to quad to appear, item_artifact_super_damage must be placed. w/o any SF

btw, is it your maps safe1 and safe2? 
 
The item ist most likely too close to a wall or the ceiling (has to be 60 units) and thus falls out of the level. Load the map in developer mode ("developer 1" in the console) and you'll see a warning message if that's the case.

If you're looking for beta testers, post a note in the Screenshots & Betas thread. 
 
Spy: what do you mean with w/o SF?

Yes, I made safe1 and 2 and 3 is pretty much done now as well :P

Oh, developer mode :) Didn't know about that one. Going to try it out now. 
Developer Mode Rocks :D 
Thx, that really helped! Found a DM spawn point outside the level which for some reason caused the quad to not spawn.. odd.. but it works now :D 
Beta Ready 
well, beta is ready now :) Thanks for all the quick responses. I'll make a post on the beta board later. 
Code Question 
So say you had a bunch of quad damages in the room. Currently, they will all rotate exactly the same direction and start at the same angle so they are all perfectly in sync.

Is there a way in QuakeC to start them at random angles or change the rotation speed or do anything, really, to break it up and make it look more natural? 
Randomiser 
I'd add

self.angles_y = random() * 360;

to the spawn function. This would randomise the angle they face initially, which should make them look better differentiated.

You could also set .movetype to MOVETYPE_NOCLIP and then give them an angular velocity:

self.movetype = MOVETYPE_NOCLIP;
self.avelocity_y = 10 - 20 * random();

I wouldn't recommend this though, because it entirely eliminates the benefit of the client-side rotation built into the model. You'll have constant network updates of the rotation, which seems a bit excessive for the feature. So I'd vote for option 1, but that's how either could be achieved . 
 
"self.angles_y = random() * 360; "

Well, I tried that but no luck. I also tried putting that into a one shot think function that executed a second after spawning but that didn't work either. I'm currently thinking that the model is being rotated in the cached model itself and then every time it renders, they all pull from that same value or something? 
 
I should note that I've created a new item using the quad damage model so it's not the ACTUAL quad damage that I'm dealing with here. If that matters... 
Interesting 
Looks like the rotate flag overrides whatever angle you set in qc or the map. The only alternatives are either to remove the rotate flag from the model, and do the rotation using self.avelocity, or to create several frames within the model each with different rotations of the model, and randomise between those frames on spawn. 
 
Bah! OK, thanks. :) 
Stupid 
Installed Quake on an old win98 computer.
A little curious I couldn't get higher video resolution then 320 x480.
So I decided to install the update 1.08 but this didn't help.
So I installed the SOA pak to see, which also didn't help.
Then Fitzquake or glquake but they start up like mud.

How do I get my quake off the phone resolution? 
 
the update 1.08 is dos only
get the 1.06

Try winquake? 
Limited Resolution 
It has something to do with the video option screen.
Normally after installing quake it offers a resolution from 320x240 to 800x600, but for some reason the max only goes to 480x320. 
 
maybe a dumb question, but just how old is this old win98 computer? it's possible the video card doesn't support the higher resolutions? can you find out what kind of video card it has (if any)? 
Er 
well, that last question was retarded... it obviously has some kind of video card, what i actually meant was if it had 3d acceleration of if it was one of those ancient ones. 
Odd 
It's a mobo I caught out of the surplus and plugged in a disk, a video and soundcard, and finaly I can start a win98 program.
I got all these odd warnings about flipages not correckt screen resolution. I remember in the old 98 it had these errors with darkened screens and garbage messages.
So I'm just on the point Quake starts up well, but only with a max screen of 480x320.
It's not the 3d or something with the videocard, it's only the old dosquake version I can't force to 800x600 resolution. 
What Would It Take ... 
to give liquids an angle, a travel direction, like you can do in Quake 2 ?
It would be great to see water coming down or lava floating from one point to another.
Would it be possible to "steal" the code that makes it possible in Quake 2 and put it in a mod for quake 1, or would it involve changing the Quake engine itself ? 
 
quake2 did it with texture flags, which required a new texture format which the engine recognized.

quake could do it by implementing some sort of shader system, probably. 
No 
I can't do that, that would take considerably more programming skills then I possess.

And I guess it would be impossible to have a liquid texture (*) and combine it with a func_wall (+) one ? 
 
Just animate one of the water textures. Four frames are enough already. 
 
Neg, the trouble is that it would look weird in combination with the "real" water, especially with transparent features enabled. 
 
one trick i've seen is to build a river out of func_trains in an endless loop, with each train having water textures on it.

The "pox extras" mod (which also has some other water-based tricks) had an example map that did this, i think. 
Wow ! 
That's a great idea !
I'm going to try it out right now !
Thanks !

And I'll have a look if I can find the Pox mod, I must have missed that one. 
 
It looks fine with the real water since it's the same texture but yeah, transparency makes it complicated. So your options are: compile the map without transparent water, use the animated texture on a func_illusionary with alpha enabled if the intended engine supports it, or use the regular water texture and greatly increase the scale of one of its planes (by 20-30) - this will create a semi-believable flow-like look, at least on actual waterfalls 
Quoth Question! 
Is it possible to "activate" a trigger ladder? Or does it have to be 'available' at all times? 
Yes And No 
you have actually use a func_rotate_train to hack in a ladder that becomes activated.

i'm going to assume you're making a ladder that starts in a retracted position and then through a button extends so the player can use.

first build your ladder and turn it into a func_movewall.
now create your func_ladder brush.

give both those entities the same targetname.

now create a func_rotate_train and set the target to match the movewall and ladder. the func_ladder will move in tandem with the func_movewall. 
Append: 
you have actually use a func_rotate_train
you can actually use a func_rotate_train

i neglected the mention (although it's implied): make sure to tick the "visible" flag on your func_movewall or else your ladder model is invisible. :P 
Forthcoming 
A full system for locking and unlocking entities is something I wrote some test code for, right after the last version of Quoth got released. So it's something yet to be incorporated.

If you only need the ladder initially disabled, you can safely use the info_notnull hack. Give your ladder a classnameof info_notnull (as a brush entity) a targetname, and then set

"use" "trigger_ladder"

On firing the targetname event, the entity should spawn up. You can then killtarget it to remove it. By duplicating the ladder entity with different targetnames you could do it a finite number of times(if you were careful). Being able to switch it on and off any number of times is not yet possible, but it will be! 
Outfoxed 
Ah, that's a clever trick Necros! Yeah, the hipnotic rotating entities allow you to move triggers as attachments. One small warning - the trigger_ladder has an associated "outwards" vector to help push the player onto the ledge above/away from the ladder when they jump off. This does not adjust for the rotation of the entity, so make sure the vector is correct in the final position. Also, don't get tempted to allow players to hang on while it moves! I suspect bad things will happen... 
 
Necros: I think I have handle that.

Preach: that vector shit IS something I'll probably have to keep in mind - thanks! 
Quake Key Question. 
Just out of curiosity, is there any easy way to get a key to activate something other than a door in Quake? 
I Think That 
(without using any hacks, which Im sure other mappers here will be able to tell you about) you can make a door target another item. So you could make a door behave like a button by setting the sounds and directions so it moves like a button, but when you finally get the key you need to open the door, you touch the door and the door moves like a button would and triggers something else. I did this in starkmon IIRC :) 
Just give it a target - everything with that targetname will be activated. 
 
The question is a bit unclear - you want a key to activate lifts, trains, or whatever?

Do like Ricky says for standard Quake. Use a door that looks like a button.

The clean solution would be to have something like RemakeQuake's item_key/trigger_lock combination, where the lock can be everything. If you're ready to use your own progs.dat, you can rip this stuff from the RMQ source. 
 
I agree, I wasn't too clear.

What I actually want to do is activate some rising steps (which are really 6 individual doors) a few seconds after the actual keyed door is opened.

I may have been doing something wrong, but I didn't have any luck making a relay the target of the keyed door. I'll go back and try that again.

I'm trying to keep it simple because I'm at the 256 model limit. 
 
Have the key door target the first stair, but set "delay" to about 3.

Have the first stair target the second, the second the third, and so on, setting "delay" on each stair to 0.5 seconds or so.

Just off the top of my head. Shoot me if I'm wrong. 
 
Delay doesn't work on doors like it does on triggers. A func_door entity always fires its target immediately. You can either use different speed values for each step, stagger some trigger_relays or add a "use" "multi_trigger" field and corresponding delay values to each step/door. 
 
Argh, then it's a RMQ thing again. Oh well. It gets confusing.

Listen to negke. 
Wait 
Why not trigger all the steps at the same time and give them all the same speed? They're all different heights so will stop moving at different times anyway - resulting in a choral sound effect. 
Yeah 
Sometimes the most obvious solution is the hardest one to find... 
Hah 
I only know because I'm using one in a current map. 
 
lol. 
Got It Working 
I put a keyed door on the floor. It has the lip set so it doesn't actually move. Its right below what was the original keyed door. It's targeted to a trigger_relay and the original keyed door, both named "tryagain". The relay has a delay of 3 seconds and targets the six rising steps.

This works okay. It's not exactly the effect I wanted but I can fool with it from here.

Funny thing, I had the keyed door inset in the floor and it wouldn't get triggered. There were no other brushes overlapping it or anything, it was just like a piece of the floor. I had to move it above the floor to get it to work. I'll have to try that again because I just remembered I also changed it's angle from 0 to "up". Maybe that had something to do with it. 
Skill Question 
While testing my level I 've come up to an odd point of setting the skill level.

I counted all monsters and took their health count together. Then I counted all ammunition and tried a relation with their availabillity to match the health count.
But as the TE_DAMAGE of all weapons differs this isn't the right way to handle.

I can count the ogres and enforcers to reclaim their rockets and cells, but as they are also gibbable this is only temperary.

Is there an easier way to gain the outcome? 
Lol 
Use monstercount / (pi*thumb), then substract the release date.

Or just play the map and add enough items so that you can get through smoothly. Then declare this as Hard and scale down the difficulty settings from there. Then see how the testers do. 
Yeah 
You have to take into factor the players level of accuracy. According to teh games I play, my accuracy = 20-40%. So it is meaningless.

Always just play, play, and play again. Then get l00ts if testing done. :D 
 
Well I played rather several times only the hard and nightmare are the worst.
So I thought if I

TE_DAMAGE * ammucount = all monsters health + random

could compare it mathly. 
I Think 
There's too many variables to make an equation of it. Unless you want to get alot more complex than 4 variables.

What negke says works :) 
TF2 Swamp Theme 
Wasn't quite sure where to put this :P

TF2maps has finished their TF2 swamp theme pack that contains new models/textures/blah which you can download and use for free, its very high quality stuff!

http://swamp.tf2maps.net/ 
License? 
 
Error 
Don't know what happened after a qc-script, in game leaves the message:

PR_executeprogram : excessive stack (53 normal = 31)  
Nevermind 
bad scripting. 
Hanging Vines 
Doe's anyone know of a texture pack that has some nice alpha channelled hanging vines and overgrowth textures? Or any packs that feature some sort of old abandoned temple theme? I'm thinking more Mayan than Egyptian here, any info would be appreciated! 
Iirc 
the original rtgnosis texture set had a vine/leaves overlay with an alpha channel. 
Also 
Sock's Pyramid of the Magicians (pom) level. 
Grahf 
I had totally forgotten about that map, damn its perfect =)

Thank you very much! 
Hammer For Quake? 
I know this is probly in here somewhere, but...

Is there a guide / howto for editing quake maps in valve source sdk? Is this possible or should I just be using hammer 3.4 (3.5?)? 
Can't Be Done AFAIK 
Although search for Baker's Quake Adapter for hammer 3.3 - maybe I'm misunderstanding what you want to do. 
Edit In New Hammer 
My goal was to be able to edit maps in the new hammer, export them somehow, compile for quake with the new tools. I figured I'd ask here first in case there was a tut somewhere.

If it's not doable I am gonna fire up hammer 3.4.

It's been a few years (and a few computers) since I had a mapping environment setup. ;) 
Have A Go 
I've been meaning to do it myself since the latest beta version can apparantly show model meshes inside the 3d window. 
Killtarget Flag 
It works in Fitzquake, but it doesn't in Qrack.
Why could that be ? 
 
Could be the engine is Qrap.
What are you trying to killtarget and how? 
 
Shambler = dead = open gate
The gate was previously closed by another trigger. I want it to re-open (or disappear, that's good enough for me) when the monster is dead.

Qrap or not, it's got nice shiny stuff, I like ;)!

But what I really want is a level that can be played in multiple engines. Except Darkplaces, I've given up on that one, it is not accurate with the placing of items or monster spawns. 
Alright 
The problem is there's a glitch (or oversight) in the code that prevents monsters from using the killtarget field just like that. You have to give the Shambler a dummy target field for the killtarget to work.

You could probably also just set the "toggle" flag on the gate and make the Shambler target it normally.

Issues with item and monsters in DP often indicate improper placement, e.g. too close to a wall, that other engines ignore. For regular custom maps, any newer DP build should work flawlessly. 
NNoooooOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
----- TyrLight v0.99e -----
extra sampling enabled
colored output format: lit
BSP is version 29
1128 entities read, 956 are lights.
************ ERROR ************
TestLineOrSky: tstack overflow


Thats a bit of a grim looking one isnt it!?!?

Anyone here have any idea what that means? Had lit like 95% of the total faces when it spat this error :(

Please help! 
Ouch 
Can't help I'm afraid.

How much compile time to see the error? 
Probably About 20 Minutes, Maybe A Little Less. 
AguirRes light tool works though. Doesnt give any clues to the problem. It will have to do for now. 
RickyT23 
If you have the C code, you should have a look into it to figure out what's hapening: this is the first time I hear about this particular error... 
Is There... 
a hack to raise/lower the HP of Quake monsters? I think someone mentioned it before, but I am suffering from some intense mental fog at the moment. 
 
armor, check the progs.dat thread. 
 
armortype 1
armorvalue xxxx <-- however much extra health you want. 
Tanks! 
 
TAAANKS! 
(L4D2 / Swamp Fever / Plantation level)

A question - anyone have any advice /examples on how to make a spiral? Not a helix but a spiral as seen in SPoG's Q2 map (vertical spiral lift bars).

If I figure it out first then I'll post a .map. 
Spiral 
it's not quite SPoG standard but here's a pic of an old speedmap i did years ago: http://isoterra.co.uk/images/qspiral.jpg

basically for that i started with a 12-sided hollow black cylinder (128 units high in that pic), which each 'side' split diagonally (i started with one brush, split it first, then vertexed & copied it round to form the cylinder, making sure the split always went the same way. i then cloned the whole thing and stacked another on top; then it was just a case of deleting half the brushes & a little more cloning upwards

if you can master that then it shouldn't be too hard to work out how to do different shapes & sizes. there is also a much messier way of doing it by fusing 6 4-sided shapes together to make a cuboid and then vertexing the resulting cluster any way you want, but qbsp tends to get upset at large amounts of those! 
Play 
dont bite the hand that feeds you (my map)

Find it on the quaddicted.com website, in the singleplayer maps section, type Ricky in the search field. thehand.bsp

The very first corridor you come to the cieling is 1/4 spiral. Infact Slave To a Machine has a spiral in the generator room.

So two maps I made with a spiral. If you look at the maps I jave the .rmf and the .map source availaible if you like. Just email me or message me here and I will send you the sources 
Also 
rj:

nice spiral. also as or the 6/4 side cuboid technique - better just make one cuboid into two triangular prisms, then you cant go wrong ;) 
I Made It With 
4 sided shapes but got the offset wrong - will give the stack method a try - sounds alot easier tbh. 
Sorted 
It was the cylinder as an offset reference I was missing.

Problem was I didn't want to make an actual spiral but more something like a drill or screw.

Might well have a go at something a bit more ambitious with this. 
Trisoup It 
A drill might be tricky to do, assuming it's not the size of a room, because the smaller you get, the more difficult (or impossible) the technique becomes. 
Ricky 
rj:

nice spiral. also as or the 6/4 side cuboid technique - better just make one cuboid into two triangular prisms, then you cant go wrong ;)


oh you can. i have done anyway ;p

that's essentially what i ended up with above; it can just be a bit of a headache working out which way to split them sometimes; there are still several four-sided faces that need to keep intact

a full 'vertex block' (unofficial name i've given for the 6x4 brush thing) however can literally be bent anywhere on any axis, providing the result is at least concave. works great for natural terrain.. but probably isn't to be abused too much in minor architectural detail 
The Most Ambitious Thing I Attempted 
was actually in that speedmap pictured above; instead of leaving it as a pillar i tried to make it a full-blown arch with the spiral curving around. i got my head in a mess at the time & ditched the idea but on hindsight it should be easy if you build the curve before subtracting the negative brushes. might try it... i was actually wanting to do a big spirally setpiece as a finale for e2 :) 
 
That speedmap was one of the first maps I ever played (ran pretty slow...); that and Daz' graffiti maps are some of my favorite ("mapping-wankery-")speedmaps ever. 
The Drill 
Is the size of a room and not supposed to be used for drilling. The limitation of the grid is 2x2 so making a drill of 128 size I wouldn't even attempt - straight to .mdl.

Rj, the spiral made in the way you describe (assuming I'm not missing a step) comes back as invalid solid unless trisouped, though I haven't compiled to check it yet.

I still think back to SPoG - that map was insane for geometric complexity.

Hm, might try to coax AguirRe back to Quake 1 to see what made formations can be tweaked to compile better.

24 sided curved spiral anyone? 
Can You 
upload a .map of your attempt so i can see if you went wrong anywhere? 
Actually Scratch That 
i just opened up the rmf of that map and noticed that wasn't how i did it. each side was actually split into 4 not 2. i'll just upload the thing so you can have a look and pull it apart :) 
 
There's 
Sprials.rmf in the testmaps folder, or there's examples of 24 sided shapes from ctf1rq - with some geodesic domes in there as well. 
Although 
The 24 sided stuff is pretty limited.

...I remember I did include some helix' as well though - above the stairs off to the sides in the courtyard. 
 
i just put up a 24 sider in the same folder. it only goes down to the 4 grid at that size so you could in theory either half the bar widths or go for a full-blown 48 sider if you wanted to show off. you could probably get away with half the bars though at 24/48, i don't think spog's had that many 
Thanks 
Will take a butchers later though, got people starting to arrive. 
Spawning Items. 
Okay - so trying to do something with this not quite speedmap and wondering

how can I go about spawning a key in a map?

I'm working in Quoth, of course. 
Bah 
I was going to post a hacky way of doing it, but I'll hold my tongue. There's a correct way of doing it, which is to use the info_multispawn with a spawncount of 1, and set the spawnclassname and spawnfunction to item_key1 instead of a monster class.

A full write-up of the info_multispawn entity can be found here: http://www.celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=60173&start=257&end=257 
Thanks! 
 
Func_Train Trouble ... 
Hello again,

I have made a Func_train that goes round, it has 4 path_corners. What I want to do, if possible, is to make a door that opens up to let the train go true. The problem is, I don't know how to do that. Any ideas ? 
Well You Can Time The Door To Open 
At the correct time. Make a trigger_relay entity with the same targetname as the train. When the train gets triggered it will trigger the trigger_relay too. And you make the trigger_relay target the door, but give the trigger_relay a "delay" key with a value of "X", X being the amount of seconds before the door is to open.

Is it "delay" or "wait"? One or the other :) 
 
Yes, that's right. Though it sounds like the door is supposed to open not only once but every time the train passes it. In this case you have to add a second relay with the same targetname that fires the first relay again after the right delay, so the cycle starts over again. 
 
Is it possible to make a path_corner trigger the relay or even the door directly? 
No. 
But you can make the door trigger the relay. Or itself after the time the train needs to do its round - then you'd have to add the field "use" "multi_trigger" to the door. 
Btw 
Keep in mind this kind of delay/script may easily run out of sync if the train is blocked by the player or monsters. 
Thanks 
for your suggestions.
I'll try and work it out.
Otherwise I'll just have to bin the whole idea.
It's one of these "but I set my mind on it" ideas ... 
Another Way Would To Make The Door 
A train. You could set a path_corner at the open and closed positions of the door, and give them a "wait" key of however long you want the door to wait until it moves again. 
I Like That One 
that,s how i would want to do it

... 
A Note: 
Ricky, we've got that done on the code end for RMQ - triggering from when a path_corner is hit. 
Making Painkeep Maps 
I'm trying to make a Painkeep map using gtkRadiant. I saw that a while back, the makers of the Painkeep mode released a map makers kit which included custom entities. I'm having a heck of a time finding that kit. Does anyone here know where I can get it? 
No Color/texture Visable 
I've changes the func_train into a func_door because of the trouble Negke pointed out in #9361.
Everything is working fine, but the "lift" appears completely black. Could that be because it starts out being hidden ? 
Yes 
Objects will be lit where you position them to begin with.

Solid entities (lifts, doors, trains etc) do not cast a shadow during the light phase though, so in the case of a func_train you can position it wherever you like within the sealed map to get some light on it. It will then be re-located to the first path_corner entity when the map loads.

If its a lift (func_plat) then you need to put a light entity near it to light it in its first position (usually the fully "up" position).

Hope this helps 
 
Thanks Ricky.
Yeah, it's helpful.
Funny though, I put some Rune fullbrights on the corners and they do show (in supporting engines of course). 
Planckscnst 
Check the PQ archive at quakewiki.net - maybe they mirrored the Painkeep website.

Ron: Ah, so it's just a lift? I thought it was supposed to be a platform floating through the map. 
They Will 
Because they're fullbright - basically they ignore lighting completely and always show themselves at maximum illumination.

If the door entity isn't lit it means that it's center (bang in the middle of the bounding box) is inside a solid brush when the light is being calculated.

Try 'Start Open' and trigger it once on map load so its in the right position when you need it. An easier way might be to just give it a recess to fit into. 
 
Negke, yes, that was the original idea, to have the "lift" go round, and if you stayed on it you'd be moved into a secret area. But the main use was a lift to get up.

Ijed, I did that, create a space underneath, and it worked !

Thanks again, I'll remember to credit you guys when I'm done ;)

2013 or so ...

Only joking, the thing is that I'm always wanting to ad stuff, sometimes causing me to start all over again. The 1st map I ever made used to be quite small. The 3rd remake is quite big now. But also I had to correct a lot of stuff. I used to do a lot of carving, really bad. There should be more information on how to work clean. There is a lot of documentation on how to make a room, but not how to make it as efficient as possible, unfortunately. So before I found this website, I had to learn trough trail and error. 
 
@negke Thanks for the info - that led me to other Painkeep sites that I didn't know about yet. I've exhausted those and still haven't found what I'm looking for. 
Iteration 
Is a good, and fun, way to map - as opposed to having some rigid plan laid out in advance. 
Original Quake & GTKRadiant 
I'm having trouble getting the textures to display in the texture window when I'm trying to build Quake maps in GTKRadiant...

However, if I set the game to Quake 2, my quake 2 textures show up without any problems, even without the need to extract the files from the paks.

Is there a special way to setup Quake in GTKRadiant? 
 
Put the texture wads in id1\ 
 
Do I have to put the textures in a wad file first? There's only 1 wad file in the paks and it doesn't seem to have anything in it... While the "gfx" folder seems to contain all the textures. 
You Need 
 
Got it! Thanks! 
T-Junctions And Caulk 
Other than avoiding to overlap brushes, is it also necessary to avoid T-junctions when making quake maps? Doesn't seem to matter how careful I am, the compiler keeps reporting "# edges added by tjunctions" in the log...

Take a look at these pics, bear in mind the column or "pillar" is floating.

Avoiding T-junctions:

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/3360/avoidtjunc.jpg

With T-junctions:

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/5436/tjunc.jpg

And is there a caulk texture to use when you want faces on a brush to not be calculated when compiling the map? Only thing I found was a "clip" texture. 
Lipsync: 
It is not necessary to avoid tjunctions. "X edges added by tjunctions" is not an error, that is just normal operation. QBSP ensures you will not have tjunctions in the compiled level by adding those edges. So you don't need to worry.

There is no "caulk" but there is something called "skip" which might do what you need -- see here: http://www.celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=60088 
Metlslime 
I see.

This skip tool will come in handy! Thanks! 
Er 
There is nothing wrong with overlapping brushes. Infact overlapping brushes is what the technology was made for. DO overlap brushes!!!

Having 2 faces at the same place on the same plane isnt a good idea because you have no controll as to which face qbsp will choose. 
I Find It Good Pratice.. 
not overlapping brushes. even though qbsp doesn't have a problem with it it does help towards neater brushwork in general 
Ricky 
At least in the case of BJP's tools, qbsp will always choose the face of the newer brush, the one that is further down the list in the .map file. 
 
even though qbsp doesn't have a problem with it

seriously, I remember reading an article about how the technology was devised which had diagrams showing how qbsp can take overlapped rough-shaped brushes and subtract everything outside of the inside space. It was what it was designed for! You can get some really neat effects by overlapping brushes, especially with things like rock work.

Things to watch out for which ARE important:

1 - illegally shaped brushes. No concave brushes please.

2 - corners of brushes being off-grid.

I have discovered that you can have overlap points off grid, qbsp completely re-models the brushwork anyway into wireframe. But having corners of brushes off-grid is a real no-no. Likely to lead to leaks, holes in the clipping hulls, homs etc. 
Hm 
Anything of grid is a no-no. Basically because qsbp snaps them to grid, which might not be where you were expecting. If you've got a load of stuff like that that's intersecting then you get a mess of unnecessary (and probably invisible) polys, holes in between structures and so on.

The grid is 2x2 though, and you can always spawn in models with a scrap of code for detailed stuff. Not many people realise / use bsp model spawning - which is the mutts nutts for rotating detailed stuff. 
A Minor Difficulty Settings Problem. 
I've made a part of a map that was perfectly playable in normal skill, the skill I test on because I'm a lazy bastard, but can't be done at all on Nightmare, the skill I always play on.
The Shamblers reload too fast for the player to have any chance of getting past them. Does anyone know where I can find the exact difference in skill settings ? 
 
"There is nothing wrong with overlapping brushes. Infact overlapping brushes is what the technology was made for. DO overlap brushes!!!"

Yeah, I wish this myth would go away but it persists for whatever reason. Overlapping brushes are totally fine and completely acceptable. QBSP will cull away the unseen portions.

"Having 2 faces at the same place on the same plane isnt a good idea because you have no controll as to which face qbsp will choose."

Untrue. It will pick the one that appears last in the MAP file. You can control this simply by cutting/pasting the brush that you want to appear last in the map editor. That moves it to the end of the brush list - unless your editor is doing something where it writes out the brushes in an arbitrary order. In that case, it's a failing of the editor rather than Quake/QBSP itself. 
Funny ... 
I've found a new way on how to get by them.
Funny how your own maps can bring out the creative player in you, I guess that's why I love Quake so much. 
 
Enemies fire faster on Nightmare, that's the main difference you cannot influence. The rest is item spawnflags to make them not appear.. 
Remove One!!! 
Or die!!! 
 
Anything of grid is a no-no. Basically because qsbp snaps them to grid, which might not be where you were expecting. If you've got a load of stuff like that that's intersecting then you get a mess of unnecessary (and probably invisible) polys, holes in between structures and so on

this. like i say, even if it compiles without a hitch most of the time, having loads of off-grid overlap points still leaves your map more susceptible to random leaks & the like, as well as being not very nice to build stuff on (say if you wanted to cut a cave out of the rockface, or build some architecture into it later on).

but hey, personal preference. i used to do it all the time but have much prefered working with natural terrain stuff since i stopped doing it. much prefer using triangular faces now 
And 
you should never need to test nightmare or find a way of making it easier, it's supposed to be fucking hard :P 
Grid And Overlapping 
not only should stuff be "on grid" meaning on the 1x1 grid, you should also build stuff so that it fits on the higher grid levels when possible. So if you have a 32-unit-thick wall, try to align it to the 32x32 grid. If you add an 8-unit-wide railing, try to align it to the 8x8 grid.

As for overlapping brushes, this is fine BUT the thing to avoid is having things overlap slightly, when they could just touch perfectly. So if you have two brushes side-by-side, don't just put them so they overlap by 3-5 pixels, make the edges actually line up flush. This is mainly for the same reason as the previous paragraph about aligning to the largest grid size possible. 
 
What is that information on grid alignment based on? Is that a gut feel thing, or is there a technical foundation behind it?

I'm not challenging you, but I've heard a lot of level design advice over the years that is basically couched in "this is the way I learned to do it". Well, great, but if there's no QBSP related reason to do it... :) 
Willem: 
Mostly gut feel, based on what i've seen, what i know about qbsp, and what i've absorbed from others. I think you are correct to challenge this advice as perhaps more "mapper lore" than solid fact.

Scientifically, i would have to make an entire map the "messy" way and compare it to a "clean" map to have any evidence that it mattered.

But, since brush faces determine BSP planes, it seems plausible that it would make a cleaner BSP if there were fewer unique planes and more nodes that cut along the same planes.

I can say from experience that maps with more orthogonal brushwork compile faster than maps with many angled planes, since i've done both of those types. And i see more (seemingly) extraneous face cuts in areas of maps that have a lot of non-orthogonal brushfaces.

I can also say from experience that when two nearby brushfaces are parallel but not coplanar, it is more likely to create additional cuts on nearby faces. (presumably because if they are coplanar there can only be one cut on nearby faces since there is only one plane.)

Qbsp does do a decent job of merging neighboring faces when it can, this mitigates the problem in terms of raw poly count, but i believe the extra bsp complexity is still there.

More facts on this topic would be useful. On the other hand, I have heard that even John Carmack has been suprised to hear certain results (such as the reported finding that 64-unit walls produced better vis than 32-unit walls.) [citation needed]

In terms of "advice to a newbie" i still feel better advising 'clean' brushwork, since it is proven successful, rather than 'messy' brushwork, which might be harmless but i don't think has the same track record. 
Amusing Footnote: 
I spent about 1 week making a small test map in ut2k3, for a job application. I built everything the quake way, all clean and lined up on a grid and flush with each other (though of course i used the subtractive brushes to make the initial rooms and some of the smaller alcoves.)

... and had all sorts of headaches with compile errors, geometry errors, etc!

Then i opened up one of the ut2k3 maps in the editor to see how they did it. What i found was: 1. there were only about 15 brushes in the entire map (rest was static mesh), 2. all the brushes were subtractive, 3. and they were all random sized, non powers of 2, off-grid, and slightly overlapping! And of course it compiled perfectly.

I ended up getting a job on a Q3-engine game instead, so it all worked out in the end. :) 
 
Haha, yeah, we rarely use BSP for anything these days other than floors and the occasional wall. Everything else is meshes. 
Can I Just Say 
really like the term "mapper lore". 
Wicked Grid Maze 
I finished a map two years ago. It was broken and ruined with brushes used on all gridsizes.
When I realized I could never get a clean bsp, as the map started leaking and homming like a rascal, I decided to start again.

I compiled everything clean on grid. It was a repetive thing to me, but to my surprise the map rounded out good.

Then I decided to add a terrain map, which was a construction of triangle brushes ending up in sloped edges. Apart the map compiled well.
When I added the terrainmap I had to realign all brushes to fit them on grid.
And this broke up all my smooth pathway, but it worked. 
And 
It's just good practice to keep stuff neat and orderly. 
Screenie! 
please 
Sure..., 
but now my smooth terrainmap only imports on rougher brushes by marking all on grid. Or I could ignore warnings.

Ricky.., you played the map. More or less..,
https://homedrive.ziggo.nl/gimli@home.nl/publiek/gimli30.htm

Is there something to do about model skins that keep get mirrored?
I broke an evening to get me a good baseframe,
and now it keeps removing front with backparts. 
Wrong Link 
Wow 
Is this really a MadFox map?! Looks neat.
Though I suggest you change the texture on the railings to something without rivets, a simple brown or gray metal. 
Can't Wait To Play It ! 
Looks great, MadFox ! 
Force To Grid 
Railings are dxf files which have no shadows, same as the hillslopes. This makes lighting a little tricky seeing the clear dxf file near a brush. Could have another texture but the hexen2 wad is rather bloomish.

My concern is that the middle low pix is a sloped pathcorner around. In the testmap the pathcorner was well closed, while in this map it suddenly shook all brushes in it.

I had to use "force to grid" for all and now it has more of a stairway. But I wanted to make a map once whith all brushes integer.

When two maps with both integer brushes is put together, is the need to replace the imported brushes back into integer origins normal? 
Hammer 3.5? 
Is Hammer 3.5 the one that can be coerced to work for Quake1 editing? I can't keep it straight anymore. 
Worldcraft 3.3 
Its the same thing really AFAIK.

Although I have heard of someone using Hammer for Quake ........ 
 
Is it the same?

OK, if not, where can I get 3.3?

And once I get it, do I need to do anything to it or will it "just work"? 
Well 
i'm using hammer 3.5, with out that fecking texture trouble off of WC3.3 
 
Cool! So I install 3.5 and then this QuakeAdapter thingamaroo and it's all good? 
Pretty Much 
You need to convert the wads though. It's semi automated - have to put them in the right folder. 
Madfox 
VeniVidiFuzi

is an awesome name :D 
 
This was discussed above, I know, but I need to ask again since none of the solutions up there are working.

I installed Worldcraft 3.3 and did the QuakeAdapter stuff. It loads up and seems to work but I can't select anything in the 3D view. I don't see anything about hardware acceleration in the Options dialog box so I'm kinda stumped.

Any ideas? 
 
Ahh, found this note in the help file:

"Note: if you are familiar with previous versions of Worldcraft, you may note the absence of the Hardware Acceleration checkbox. Worldcraft will now always attempt to run in OpenGL mode, and if that isn't available through hardware, it will attempt to emulate it in software."

Buh? Now what do I do? :-/ 
OK 
Not wanting to sound retarded, but this is actually a recurring bug. I have experienced it marginally on both my old GPUs, but the majority of the time it is fine.

When it happens, just to verify, when you put the cursor over the 2D view does it become a hand instead of an arrow?

Usually a reboot sorts it out on my PC, and it hasnt happened to me for ages, but others have had the same/similar troubles.

Another thing which may help would be the check you are using up to date drivers / drivers which work..... ?

Also out of curiosity, what GPU are you using? 
Also 
Instead of "hardware acceleration" tab, there is one which is imply called "filter textures" or "filtering" or something. I think that does the same / similar thing. 
Question 
you don't have to convert wads when you use hammer 3.5? 
Drew 
yes, you're still have to convert wads for using hammer 3.5, but it's much easier then converting via qadapter 
Hmm 
hardware acceleration was the only thing tempting me to move away from 1.6, but the above few posts don't make that look too promising! 
I Would Upgrade From 1.6 Because ... 
Texture use is much easier in 3.3.
If you rotate something the textures stay in proportion if you use texture lock. I find the "fit" check box easy as well. It allows you to fill out texture on a brush that is not quite the right size, but close enough to look silly.

Another thing I love is the option of making arches. You get a preview screen before the item is placed, where you can change the shapes and other stuff. It's really cool for making curved hallways.

I found the vertex tool a bit easier to use as well.

So, can anyone tell me what version 3.5 adds for Quake mapping ? 
>correction< 
NOT to look silly, I meant ... 
 
God, what an atrocity. I grabbed a version of Hammer 3.5 that basically works but I can either:

(A) Have proper texture view and no selection abilities or...

(B) be able to select in the 3D view but the textures are drawing all skewed and such on the faces or...

(C) be able to select in the 3D view with proper texture application but it's horrifically slow

Fuck it, let's see what the BSP editor is like. 
It's 
A 3d Driver / GPU issue - you're on ATI I guess.

You need to turn off Filter textures in the 3d View options and paste a .dll into the worldcraft folder.

http://rapidshare.com/files/138119760/atioglxx.dll

Basically if the dll exists then it stops WC from trying to use the hardware and retards it back a few generations. Which works.

Or you can just buy Nvidia :P 
I Mean 
It forces software rendering - visually it looks the same as hardware acceleration, can't say I've noticed it being slower either. 
 
ijed

Thanks but I tried that. That's what makes it abysmally slow. I'll probably try to set up my other laptop soon (an nvidia machine). The BSP editor seems kinda cool though. Maybe I'll try this for awhile. But, of course, the texture tools are pretty bad. 
WC 
Is a pain in the arse to set up - the real reason to use it is the very good texture handling and visually simple frontend.

Vista also hates it with a passion. 
 
Ahh, being on Vista might be part of the problem them too.

No worries, BSP actually seems to be pretty good now that I've meticulously set up the preferences the way I want them. I don't think it has rotational texture locking which is the one thing I really wanted Worldcraft for. I can get by without it though... 
Willem 
Now you know why you should have written ToeTag crossplatform in the beginning. 
 
Spirit

So much work. :)


I forgot my main complaint with BSP - the 3D camera controls. Horrible. So horrible.

But Worldcraft isn't much better, so, no loss there. 
Did You Try 
different drivers? 
 
I can't be bothered, to be honest. I'm done with installing different versions of drivers to make things work. :) Thanks for the suggestion though. 
CCC 10.2 
I've been all over that s@#*

http://www.amd.com/us/Pages/AMDHomePage.aspx

The newest ati drivers are actually pretty neat. Massive performance increases and everything! Got to be worth a try....

See it occurred to me - the hardware accelleration mode of Hammer likely uses the hardware within your computer.

And seeing as you have told me yourself that you never use your computer for gaming then it would make sense that your drivers aren't up to date. I mean they release new drivers every couple of minutes nowadays. And they release these "updates" to operating systems also.

Maybe thats why I never have any real problems with these things - I recognise the fact that I have to take it upon myself to make sure that I am using the correct tools for the job. I cannot entrust this task to Dell or Hewlett-Packard, they frankly suck. Taking value from the end-user product at every possible turn.

So seriously, if you are serious about mapping with an editor which works well and has all of that magical texture locking stuff which makes it about as easy as Lego bricks, then atleast try installing the latest drivers for your GPU. If that doesnt work then fine, stick to the manual and time consuming method, I'm sure its no big deal.

But its got to be worth a try hasnt it?

If you have some kind of horrible OEM GPU in your box then I'm sorry, I cant offer any advice other than dont buy hardware from these big firms who dont give a c@#p about their customers (HP grrrrr.....) 
 
Look, I appreciate the help but understand that I've been tinkering with PCs for over 20 years now. I understand all about getting the latest drivers and all that jazz. I got it. I just can't be bothered at the moment.

I'll maybe take another shot at it later this week but I've already lost several hours to getting Hammer working and, frankly, I'd rather be working on my brushes. 
Hmm 
Any ideas?

GTK 1.4

(seriously) 
 
Last time I tried it, GTK was almost as large of a farce as this Worldcraft adventure has been. Does it have a simple installer and does it "just work"? 
You're Being Shady 
about your platform, whilst yelling "farce" and stuff, man. You ask for help then you tell me you "might" try again later.

I dont understand. I defend the editor because I have been using it ever since I upgraded from WC 1.6.

What features does Hammer have that Worldcraft 3.3 doesnt anyway? AFAIK they are extremely similar, the interface and button icons and everything are identical. But the Quakeadapter was meant for WC 3.3, but you used Hammer. Why?

Also, for future reference (for me) please tell me what platform you are using? Im only asking because in the future someone will complain that they have the same problem, and if you find a solution ever then I might be able to help them, or atleast be able to say that this happens with GPU x or OS y, and that using driver z helped, or whatever.

Do ya get me?

I understand that it sucks when stuff doesnt work out of the box so to speak (took me ages to get Bioshock DX10 to run on my Windows 7 rig, and yeah - I was frustrated, tired, had a million other things to be thinking of.

But anyway, if you get a minute, or ever decide to attempt mapping with this software ever again like could you let me know your GPU, OS, driver version and things please :) 
Yes 
Absolute noob on compilers, but the one time I tried to instal GTK radiant I got lost in different versions my computer didn't like.
Win98 user - Dos fan.

GTK 1.4 worked right away. 
 
Ricky

Again, thanks, but I'm going to try BSP for a bit and see how it goes. It works. That's all I ask from this stuff. :)

MadFox

I might try Radiant again but I remember a similar clusterfuck with it. Different versions, different feature sets, stuff to install, ... blech! 
Willem 
What is the problem with the 3D camera controls on BspEditor? 
 
They aren't UnrealEd's controls, basically. :)

I just have to get used to them I guess. Most Quake editors have clunky 3D camera controls. Any time you require me to use the keyboard to navigate, it's kind of a fail. 
Willem 
Not sure which version you are using (I use 96b because they dropped support for BspBuild after that) but mouse scroll wheel for movement, and Alt+mouse for 360 looking work fine. I use Shift+ Left Mouse for texture alignment, CTRL + Left Mouse for texture sizing on the fly; and the mouse controls are fully configurable anyway. 
 
ALT, huh? Will try that (right now it's my middle mouse button). I JUST picked it up last night so I'm definitely open to learning whatever I can about it. 
Oh Yes... 
...and I use CTRL/Alt Left Mouse for texture rotation; especially good for aligning wood textures on spiral staircases. 
Ricky ! 
I'm still having problems converting my wads into hlwads with the qconverter stuff. I gave up on trying to figure that out, but I'm tired of the vanilla textures lately...

Ricky, I remember a long time ago you offered to give me a few more .hlwads if I needed them.

could you send me the Half life and DOOM hlwads!? 
An Important Note For Nvidia And Worldcraft 1.6 Users 
Since we happen to be on the subject of mapping editors, I feel I need to share this bit of info in case someone else encounters it. I probably am the last person using Worldcraft 1.6, but irregardless.

If you are using an Nvidia graphics card with the latest drivers, and are on Windows Vista or 7, you will experience a garbled 3d view in WC 1.6 that seemingly can't be fixed. This is because it's due to an Nvidia driver fault, and not because of Vista or Windows 7.

Worldcraft 1.6 uses DirectX, NOT OpenGL. WC uses the nvd3dum.dll which is Nvidia's Vista compatible D3D driver. This is the driver that causes the garbled screen problem, at least the current version of it does now. Any version higher than 182.50 of this driver causes the garbled screen.

So in order to fix it, you must copy the nvd3dum.dll from an older set of Nvidia drivers (182.50 or below) and place it in Worldcraft's main folder. This will remedy the 3D view problem.

I will gladly provide the old nvd3dum.dll driver that fixes the garbled screen problem, but again I'm not sure if anyone else out there uses WC 1.6 anymore. Still, I felt it was necessary to share in case someone does. 
Drew 
I'll see what I got ready.

The HalfLife one needs to be tinkered I think because its too big/has textures which are too big.

But I got the doom ones :) 
 
but again I'm not sure if anyone else out there uses WC 1.6 anymore

i thought my post above kinda suggested i did :)

i have a nvidia card too, but am only on XP. useful to know if i ever end up getting windows 7 though.

just to clarify, do you mean the normal 3d view or hardware accelerated mode? the latter has never really worked properly for me (can never seem to select the right brush/face/item) so always stick with the standard 
Rad 
thanks dude, I really appreciate it if you can, but no worries if it won't work out. 
Rj 
just to clarify, do you mean the normal 3d view or hardware accelerated mode?

That's a good question. Yes, it only affects the normal software rendered 3D view. It doesn't garble the 3D view when using hardware accelerated mode, but you can't use that mode either because you can't select anything in the 3D view, as you said.

But since you use XP, you won't have the 3D view problem regardless. :) 
We Want 
Open Source Worldcraft - because Valve can't be trusted to make it work. 
 
I'm using WC 1.6 on Windows 7 with hardware acceleration enabled and it works. My computer is an Intel Core2Duo and nVidia 8800GTS.

This is not the original WC I bought, but a version I downloaded from somewhere (my original WC wouldn't run on Windows 7, I found this one while searching for a fix). The .exe file does appear to be the same though. This version came with a Direct3D dll in the folder that apparently used to come with XP but is no longer supplied with 7.

The hardware acceleration is not perfect though. When selecting in the 3D view it will often select brushes off in the distance somewhere instead of the one you actually clicked on. Re-orienting the view slightly will usually fix this. 
 
BSP is pretty nice now that I've spent a few hours with it. I really like having multiple window set ups at my finger tips - I've set one up for editing, one for texturing, etc. Slick.

The one thing I don't like is that I don't see a way to hide/show brushes/entities without using groups. That will slow me down once a level gets to be a reasonable size. 
Another Little Problem ... 
I made a floor that disappears with a trigger_counter>killtarget>floor.
It works fine, but the bodies and items keep hanging in mid air.

Oh, and the floor was a func_wall, I don't know if that's relevant.

Any suggestions ? 
 
That's the standard behavior when killtargeting funcs. If possible, turn it into a door that moves down quickly (and quietly), with a lip value that makes it move a few units inside the lower floor. 
Thanks 
Why can't it ever be easy ? ;) 
Almost Funny ... 
I had to make the door move to the side, I can't make it go down. It works fine, only now all the bodies are pressed up to the wall where the door was last.

I don't think I can win this one ... 
Well 
like Negke says, the corpses will follow wherever the door goes.

I'm guessing it can't go down because you've got stuff there?

If there's items then just move them up a floor, if it's monster you can try spawning them in after the floor falls away. 
 
Or prevent the monsters from walking onto the door, e.g. by placing 'soft' monsterjump triggers around it. 
 
So IS there a way to hide/show individual brushes/entities in BSP without using a temp group? There has to be, right? 
OR MOVE THE WORLD AROUND THE ROOM! 
 
Thanks Again 
Thanks again, some good suggestions.
But I don't know, maybe I'm bitching too much.
It looks a little bit silly, but it doesn't interfere with gameplay so, I don't know, maybe I'll just keep it like it is now.


Yes, there is stuff underneath, I could try the spawning thing.
The monsters need to be on the door too, it's sort of a battle ground with several layers. 
 
"OR MOVE THE WORLD AROUND THE ROOM!"

Haha, that would be cool !
I don't know if the old engine could take that much travel at one time though !
Have you ever done something like that ?
If so, please tell me where. 
Sort Of 
In a Q2 Lazarus map. In it you can make a mirror plane, but the mirror will only reflect entities (monsters etc) not brushwork. So behind / inside the mirror you have to make a mirror image of your level to create the illusion.

Copying an idea from one of the test maps I made it so the player could break the mirror, at which point the fake world (func_wall) was deleted and the real room behind filled with enemies.

I tried a The Cube type thing once as well.

Neither got further than failed mod / test map.

I think Negke had a speedmap with rising water? 
--> 
And moved the world, because id1 water can't move. 
Not? 
OR MOVE THE WORLD AROUND THE PLAYER!

instead of teleporters..,
player not fixed, we can't do that yet. 
Willem 
You can hide all entites - it's the icon below the Grid menu in the standard set up 'ent' with a line through it.

Next to that is the hide world button.

But, use Groups they will speed up your workflow once you get used to it.
For instance, here is a list of things that I would put in a Group:-

terrain lumps
lights
monsters
lava where there is a lot of different chunks of it
major building elements such as above ground/below ground; or dungeon/library

In fact I Group anything that I want to work on until it is finished and then move onto the next area and switch off the finished area.

I think the key to using Groups is that you can set them to hide what would otherwise be distracting brushwork in dense areas of the map.

Imagine working on this without Groups:
http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/7963/fmbnearlydone.jpg

Compared to:
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/1206/fmbsameviewgroup.jpg

Entities off and just the Group I am working on.

Groups, they're brilliant! 
 
Oh, I'm on board with the group train, believe me. That was an immediate win for me.

I was just hoping for a quick, "I want to work on these 3 brushes for a second". In ToeTag I had a thing where I could select them and with a keypress hide everything else.

It's also nice to be able to say, "This brush is right in the way of what I want to see." There's no way of clicking it and just hiding it quickly from what I can tell.

I guess I'll have to get ninja with the groups and deal with it. :) 
Something Else About WC 
I have to use this utility:

http://www.quaddicted.com/tools/setgamma11.zip

With a number higher than 1 to not go blind with the 3d window. 
 
That's something I don't like in BSP. It has the worst texture browser I've ever used. It's worse than Worldcraft's and that's saying something. :) 
Texture Browser 
What kind of things would you do to the browser to improve it? 
 
At the very least, display the textures in some sort of size relative way. Let a 128x128 wall be 4 times larger than a 32x32 floor piece. I really dislike how they all get crammed into the same size box.

That alone would make it more useful for me. 
 
QuArK refreshes the textures each time you enter the texture browser. So if you have a big wad you will have to wait many seconds and then scroll down to your texture. Idiotic. 
 
OK, haha, so it COULD be worse... 
 
Mike

BSP questions.

1) Is there a way to manipulate verts in the 3D view? Like, drag them?

2) Barring that, is there a way to select a specific vertex and then go drag it in the 2D viewports? It's tough to do terrain with triangular brushes sometimes with the way I perceive this editor working. 
Is In WC 
sorry

you can select in 3D and then move in 2D. Very useful.

Heh - I never hide anything when mapping. Probably slows me down a lot. I just dont like the idea of having to be cautious about building into an area which already has brushes there because you couldnt see them.

You should see the 2D views from the side of my current map when zoomed out. White lines, black background, just like a big white blob.
I have to select things just to see where they are :O because when selected they show as red!

Im pretty sure that if I was working with a team of people that they would complain about it! 
You Don't Use Visgroups Ricky? 
 
They're Very Useful 
Not so much for slowing your pc down, but more for selectively getting stuff out of the way.

My maps tend to have visgroups set up like this:

liquids
doors
buttons
details

With adding to the list as needed - the show entities option taking care of the rest.

Makes it alot simpler to build recesses for moving stuff, set up triggers and their areas, block stuff out, etc.

Hiding whole areas I don't bother with so much any more. 
 
that a shity thing in Quark :| but i love the editor... :)

I usualy dont use big wads...

visgroups? how? never try!!! 
AFAIK WC Only Visgroups 
Trinca, log in like normal people ;) 
Willem 
Texture settings are in the prefs menu: in standard set up it is the tool bar icon, top row, 5th one in from the right (pref). Your settings are in there. If you look at my screenshots from earlier you will see I have textures just as you suggest.

Axedskullglow is 128 x 128 and azwall3_1 is 64 x64 
Just... 
...select Textures from the drop down menu 
 
Really? Hell yes! That will be great, thanks for the info!

But no love on 3D vertex manipulation? 
Vertex Dragging In 3D 
I haven't seen that in 3D (not that I have looked) but I tend to select the face in 3D and then manipulate in 2D. The 3D window updates in real-time anyway.

I have a scroll wheel mouse so I select face in 3D, move the mouse over whichever 2D window is relevant, scroll to zoom in or out, right click and drag to move the view around, manipulate brush using this method.

I have been playing with terrain on and off for ages and I have no problems. 
A Bit More 
Selecting a brush in 2D is just SHIFT and left click on the brush's centre x.

You can also change the selected face of a selected brush by left clicking close the the outside edge of the new face. 
 
OK, just checking. I had 3D manipulation of stuff in ToeTag and it was hella useful. I'll just have to get used to this method for now then.

Thanks for all your help, BTW. It great to have someone to fill in the holes that I can't fill with the help docs. 
Trinca 
Hammer visgroups are groups in QuArK... as far as I know ;) 
 
thanks JPL 
Documentation Wanted ... 
I was thinking of including some monsters from the mission pack(s).
Is there any documentation showing me what files I need to copy and how to write them into the WC fgd ?
I probably need to make a new pak then too, do I ? 
If Anybody Is Up For It ... 
There is something I can't do at all and that is making new monster models. I don't want to learn it either, I think others can do a better job anyway. But I've got this idea of creating a really tall (bigger than the Shambler) version of an Ogre, carrying a large hammer or axe, that is really fast and crushes a player with one good blow. It would be cool to make him act hostile toward any non-Ogres. Not an end boss or anything, just an occasional annoyance. Dodging, shooting and staying alive would be the way past him.

If you like the idea, I would love to use your skills ... 
 
Model: open ogre.mdl in QME. Scale it up. Delete the grenade launcher (+shoot animation) and the chainsaw. Paste an upscaled player axe minus the hand and move the vertices of the blades until they resemble a hammer (or simply use the Mjolnir mdl). Align the hammer to the smash animation.

QC: no idea.

I'm not going to do it. :) 
I'm Up But Horns Blow My Shields,,, 
I converted some monsters from DOE and SOA.
It's not such a difficult thing only qc is hard to extract as it worms all around.
I once tried the Gremlin for its weapon thievery.

I'm working on the Old Ogre so I could make something like that. 
Ron 
where's your ID or email? 
Some Questions 
Any help regarding any of these would be greatly apprecciated!

Textures - I am still unable to convert my Wads to HLwads. Does anyone know if there has been an updated version of Bakers wad conversion tool?
If not, what is the best way to go about converting the textures manually?

Curves - I have read and come to terms with CZG's 2 point curve technique. I was wondering if anyone could explain a nice clean way to extrapolate that into more detailed curves, using the arch tool or otherwise.
I usually find it impossible to keep my arches on grid/ at the right angles with the arch creation tool in WC 3.3.

Lights - How do I set spotlights up? Can detailed info be found on the Bengt page regarding that?

Thanks! 
 
OK, well Im nt going to carry on about the texture conversion, but the other points:

Smooth Arches - I tend to do this by eye, looking from the side.

Lights - so make a spotlight ad the key "mangle" with the value "0 -90 0".

The first 0 can be changed of you want the light to point in a funny angle (it rotates the angle of projection through the x axis), the second number "-90" says to point directly at the floor. This could be -45 for example, if you wanted it to point down at 45 degrees. And the final number "0" is irrelevant, it is just a marker. 
Drew 
Are you on Vista?

Also, don't use any auto-creation tools in wc3.3 - they're all crap.

This is how I make 24 sided stuff -

http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/screen_shots/24sided.jpg

Which should serve for high detail curves.

If you go back in mapping help history a couple of pages you'll find a discussion on twists / spirals. 
AutoCreation 
I include the subtract / boolean / carve on the list of bad stuff.

It's even better to make your own circles using slice, instead of having to auto-make one, rotate it, then snap it to grid with vertex manipulation. 
Vista? 
... yeah.

Ricky - thanks for that explanation - seems simple enough!

Ijed - I've only used the arch tool once - in sm149 (hence the title "Brushwork of The Damned") and I never plan to use it again!

The aspect that confuses me is making a pathway or maybe a hollow tube that encircles that 24 sided cylinder. tightly. without being leaky or buggy or otherwise shitty.

I understand how to me to skew and clip a path like that around a 12 sided cylinder, but I'm at a loss regarding how to do that around a 24 sided cylinder.

Hope that makes some sense. If not oh well, it's late and my eyes are bleeding. 
Texture Conversion 
Right click on the tool and run as administrator - I think that's how it works. Or turn of UAC.

The jpg I sent shows you how to wrap stuff around a 24 sider though - if you try making pie slices out from the centre (same as for a 12 sided) you'll see it stays on grid.

Does take a bit more trial and error though. 
Huh 
I'll mess around with it.

It's one of those things - I want to learn how to do it "properly" but it's frustrating tinkering around when I could be making a fun interesting map that just so happens to have crappier brushwork.

it's a fine line, especially considering this is just a hobby. I only want to map for fun.

thanks again for your help guys, I appreciate you taking time to answer my stupid questions! 
24 Sided Arch 
http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/2403/24sidedarch.jpg

How close is this to what ijed sent you, Drew? Can provide map file if you want.

I did it like this (in gtkradiant 1.4): Start with 24 sided cylinder, 256*256, using standard ratios. On an 8-unit grid, the ratios are: 2:0, 4:1, 4:2, 3:3, 2:4, 1:4, 0:2.

Then copy it and scale it up 1.5x, and again 2.0x, radiant can do this scaling easily. Then draw imaginary lines from the center to the edges, the points should match up (pie slices as ijed says).

Now... wrapping a hollow cylinder around a cylinder... is possible, but a fucking headache, and it's actually somewhat editor dependent as to what's possible or not. Last time I looked at the problem, it was simply not possible in Radiant to wrap a 12 sided hollow pipe around a 12 sided cylinder, because of, well I'm not sure exactly, but it has to do with how radiant won't let you make invalid concave brushes like worldcraft will. That old "CZG curve tutorial" is somewhat useless in radiant because they handle skewing and group edge dragging completely differently.

However it is entirely possible to wrap a simpler, 8-sided cylinder around a 12 sided one. It should be possible to do the same around a 24-sided cylinder, though I'm not sure if I've ever tried. If you do, make the pieces really big so it fits on grid. In the above screenshot, the arch goes down to 2 and 4 unit grid already. 
Almost The Same 
But mine's on a bigger grid - the principle's there but like you say, so're the different editor techniques.

Since the finalised shapes from wrapping around are valid have you tried figuring out a Radiant method from a .map made in another editor? 
Curves In Radiant 
I remember that I used the clipping tool a lot for wrapping curves. You can use it to cut the wall brushes of a pipe and other shapes very easily simply by drawing them from the center out to a point that is on the grid. The end points must however be chosen so that adjacent clipping lines all have the same angles (e.g. 360 / 24). I think I did that by creating a very large cylinder with for example 24 sides whose vertices were aligned on the grid.

Dunno if this makes sense, but I do remember that making curves was very easy this way. Also, you can extend this method to 3D using clipping planes, but it's obviously more work. 
Clarification 
The clipping lines for any curve brushes extend from the center of the curve to the vertices of the "guide" cylinder.

Also, remember that brush vertices don't need to be aligned on the grid since the brush faces are not defined by the vertices, but by three coplanar points. Radiant handles this very well, as opposed to other editors (QERadiant that is). 
Also 
Working with the brushes that make up the curve is very easy in Radiant due to its face dragging feature. 
Grahf 
I see you are using Radiant in Mac OS X there. How did you set it up? I tried it several times, but it never worked for me. Can you give me some hints? Which version is that? 
 
thanks grahf - I'd appreciate it if you'd send the editor - i'll try it out! 
Another Question 
probably a dumb one, but probably easy to answer.

fade attenuation value? 
Wee, Fun Stuff! This Is Gonna Be Long 
Sleepwalker: the short answer:
http://redsaurus.net/gtkradiant/ <-forum

http://www.redsaurus.net/macradiant/GtkRadiant_1.4_1.5_Macintosh.dmg <- should be universal binary installer

The long answer is, the short answer probably doesnt't help much at all. Half that forum is outdated information, the other half is info about useless games like Jedi Academy. The installer and some useful stuff is on there somewhere, though. I'll start from the very beginning because I don't know how far you got.


I am on PowerPC/Tiger and I suspect you are on Intel/Leopard, which is a minor hurdle but not insurmountable. I did have it installed on 10.5 for a while, but this old laptop just didn't get along with Leopard too well.

Install X11 first, nothing will run otherwise. In Tiger this came on the install discs, on Leopard get the latest from http://xquartz.macosforge.org/

OK, inside the DMG I linked to, you find GTKRadiants 1.4 and 1.5, and a Packs installer. There is some documentation in there, but it's not incredibly helpful. Run the Packs Installer; there is no Q1 pack, but it needs to find at least one game to install some files that Radiant needs, so point it at a Q3 installation. Put the Radiants whereever you want on your HD, it will just change the file paths we'll be editing later. I personally hate gtkr 1.5 with a passion, so everything that follows will be for 1.4.

Load that bad boy up and see if it runs. Oops, it almost certainly doesn't. You'll need this: http://www.redsaurus.net/macradiant/MacRadiant14intel.dmg

For more info on getting that to run, I'll refer you to:
http://tremmapping.pbworks.com/GtkRadiant1_4-Intel_MAC
http://openarena.wikia.com/wiki/Mapping_With_MacRadiant
http://alientrap.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=37611

I don't have an Intel Mac (yet), so I hope that helps enough to at least get the thing to open. The NetRadiant fork may be easier to get up and running, but it's 1.5 based, so bleh.

Quake 1 support section! Once it at least runs, close it again, and do View Package Contents -> Resources -> sw -> radiant14. Hey look, it's the actual Radiant folder, buried in the app package. From here on, the process parallels what Tigger-On describes here, configuring Radiant for Quake: http://industri.sourceforge.net/howto.php

find the games folder, copy q3.game and name it q1.game, change some stuff. Mine looks like:

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="iso-8859-1" standalone="yes"?>
<game
name="Quake 1 / Nehahra"
gametools= "/Applications / Games / Quake1 / pathofthesoul / MacRadiant14.app / Contents / Resources / sw / radiant14 / q1"
basegame="id1"
enginepath= "/Applications / Games / Quake1"
engine="Fitzquake.app"
prefix=".q1"
default_scale="1"
/>

Adjust accordingly. I added those weird spaces just now so the forum doesnt freak out, but you get the idea. Notice I have "Quake1" not "Quake 1" though, I might have done this because because Radiant didn't like seeing any spaces in its file path.

Now you can put stuff into id1/textures, id1/scripts, id1/maps, etc., just like on PC, yay. I later tried to get clever with project files and point it to a mod directory parallel to id1, which kinda works.

Ah, one last thing. every time you try to open or save a map, the file dialog probably isn't pointing to where you want it, and the GTK file dialog box is pretty shit. In your home folder, there is a hidden folder with the name given in the "prefix" line of the .game file, usually this is ".q3a" but I changed it to ".q1". Inside should be a folder with the name of the basegame directory, which probably will be "id1." Inside that folder, make unix symlinks to your actual working maps and scripts folders. The documentation file in the .dmg we downloaded has a simple method of finding the path, and a contextual menu plugin to make the symlinking easier.

It's worth noting, Sleepwalkr, that I'd have given up at this years ago if it weren't for your java mapconverter - works like a charm in OSX! So thanks for that. 
Drew 
It's just 1kb, zipped.

http://www.mediafire.com/?qjnimzdjnjl 
If Sleepwalker Can Quadruple Post, I Can Too 
Everything Sleepwalker said about wrapping hollow pipes around cylinders is correct. That is exactly how I did it, it's just been a while. 
Grahf 
Awesome, thank you very much for your detailed instructions. I'll surely try this out tonight, hopefully I can get it running finally. Cool to see my old mapconverter is still being used! 
Quake.pal 
please?

found this whilst i was looking for a quake.pal palette file for Paint Shop Pro, which was interesting:

http://www.studio-erebus.com/studio/tutorials/palettes.html

Scroll down for some quakey stuff....

Anyway could anyone really help me out and point me in the direction for a qauke.pal file, because i cant find a tool to convert palette.lmp to .pal format, or whatever it is im supposed to do here.....

Starbuck, heeeellllllpppppp!!!!!
Metl....? 
Do This 
1. open a quake texture in photoshop
2. export the palette
3. profit
4. ???

To get a quake paletted texture, open a wad in texmex or whatever, and export it in an 8bit format (gif or pcx should work). The texture has the whole palette embedded in it. 
On Wrapping Curves Around Other Curves 
Grahf:

I don't know if this is true or not, but I I'm pretty sure I remember someone saying that there's a setting in GTKRadiant where you can toggle it to behave like Worldcraft so you can make concave brushes and save a little time on doing curves around curves that way.

Anyone confirm this? 
 
What does it do with the concave brushes? Carve them up at MAP export time? That sounds ... dangerous. 
Hang On 
there are no concave brushes in WC. If one is made then it's invalid - you can still vertex edit it back into validity though, but for curving stuff I only use slice. Sometimes vertex edit if I screw it up, but that's only to get it back on grid / properly aligned. 
Quake.pal 
OK, well thanks for the solution Grahf, but unfortunately I left my copy of Photoshop on the bus last week and.....

So no-one here can hook me up with a .pal file with the Quake palette!?!?

Man how this forum has changes :(

(sulk) 
 
GIMP I think has all or most of the funcionality that Photoshop has and is free. It probably has a palette export option (but I rarely use my copy of GIMP so I don't know for sure.) 
 
http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/misc/quakepal.zip

Found this in my wally folder. GIMP can export palettes, but they're not in the same format as POS it seems.

Anyway. Is this the right thing? 
Dude You Are A Lifesaver :) 
I think its the right thing, I will try it when I get home! :) 
Sorry, Missed That 
There's one in RMQ's gfx folder. 
There Also Is One On My Harddisk... 
Vertex Editing In Radiant, Palette Map 
Blitz: The option is "vertex editing splits the polygon" or something. It doesn't actually help the problem, instead it just sends you to vertex editing hell, where all your faces are split into two triangles, and you still can't pull the vertices where you want them, because even with that option enabled it won't let you make an invalid brush.

The way to do the "pipe around a pipe" thing really is as sleepwalkr said, with clipping and face dragging. Maybe I should make a little visual tutorial.

Ricky: Have patience. Also, I found something quake palette related, nice little index of which color is which colormap number.
http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/1070/quakepalette.png 
 
Radiant vertex editing should be avoided if at all possible. 
Well 
Vertex editing should be avoided period. All you need is clipping and face dragging to shape brushes. It avoids a lot of problems and lets you create shapes that are very hard to get right with vertex editing if you get a little creative. 
Ricky 
Ain't you got Wally installed?
There's a q1.pal in it. 
Heh` 
Guess I was wrong.

This is still the forum I thought it was. Im sorry I ever doubted.....

Actually thanks a lot guys, I have no excuses now ;) 
You Drama Queen! 
 
Basic Question.... 
.. I never experimented monster jump: is there any map example "for the same" (<- Indy style wording) :P
Or couldn't somebody explain me how it works ? 
 
i think that's how the ogres jump down and attack you in....errr...that map...uhh... when the doors shut and the ogres are above you, maybe in episode 3? 
 
.. I never experimented monster jump: is there any map example "for the same" (<- Indy style wording) :P
Or couldn't somebody explain me how it works ?


e3m7 the haunted halls, 
Just Like Quoth's Trigger_drolejump 
trigger_drolejump

angle
speed
height

Used as described above to fling enraged droles in a specified direction. Identical to a trigger_monsterjump, set the "angle" key for the direction the drole will jump, "speed" for the number of units/sec the drole will move horizontally and "height" for the number of units/sec vertically.
 
Thanks 
I'll check it ! 
Db_rock05 
I came across an old backup cd with an unfinished map from 2005 on it but I don't have all of the texture wads to with.

Does anyone know what wad has the texture db_rock05?

it must be an outside dirt / rock type texture as the brushes are in an outside area. 
Maybe... 
... it is from bulowad (or bulowad2) texture set

Check it out there http://www.quaddicted.com/wads/ 
Thanks 
Thanks JPL!

bulowad2 is the one. 
Can Anyone Think Of 
different versions of the Quake 2 textures?

either in maps or wads or zips or whatever?

Im particularly interested in any quake1 maps which use ported Quake 2 textures. I have the full intention of finding some textures which are better than the ported Quake 2 textures in quaddicted/wads.

I can do my own conversions but my attempts at converting the stock quake 2 textures or the standard hires replacements has had funky coloured results........ 
 
metl's oblivion? 
Waterfall Sound? 
is there a waterfall sound in the quoth pack?
what is it called if so? 
Necros 
That's what I told him. Oblivion is nice. 
Like Endless Rain Into A Paper Cup... 
There is a waterfall sound, the path to it is

sounds/necros/water6.wav 
Correction 
Sound is of course singular in the quake directory structure, so I meant to put:

sound/necros/water6.wav

Then again, when you add paths to call sounds you have to omit that directory name anyway. 
Worldcraft 3.3 Question 
Every time I go to the Check for Problems tool I get a list of errors that are no real errors, like this :

"The entity contains keyvalues that are not used in its class. You can fix this error with the Fix button."

I've not tried using the fix button, I'm not sure if the entities will be deleted if I do.

Anyone know how I can get rid of this problem ?
It's quite annoying because the Check for problems tool is quite useful for pointing out mistakes with vector manipulation. 
Wellllll 
This comes from the keys which are specified for each class in the FGD file. Its not a "real" problem, and clicking on fix wont remove the entity. Infact clicking on fix wont do anything really!!!

All of the "real" problems are usually at the bottom of the list. I always start at the bottom of that list and work up. You get any illegal brush errors there, or bad textures etc.

One thing which you get in WC is brush models with no volume (no brushes attached) which are often situated at position 0,0,0. You can delete these by clocking on goto error, closing the "find problems" dialogue and pressing delete ;) 
Something Cool For WC3.3 Users: 
http://games.softpedia.com/get/Tools/Valve-Hammer-Editor.shtml

This link is to a hammer.exe file which you can put in your WC DIR and then just run from there.

Then you can see how similar Hammer 3.5 is to WC 3.3! (its sooo similar i only noticed one real difference - you can load pointfiles and see them in the 3D window. in 3.3 they would only show up in the 2D views). 
Ron: 
Anyone know how I can get rid of this problem ?

just open the fgd file, find the relevant entity (or baseclass) and add any used keys that aren't there.. voila, errors be gone! 
 
Thanks a lot !
I'll have a look at .5, I take it the Quake adapter will work for that version too ? 
Yeah 
Well that's what I mean. I ran into this file whilst looking for a hammer installer. All I did was drop the only file in the archive (600kb) which was hammer.exe into the Worldcraft directory and clicked on the exe. I had already been using the Quakeadapter WC3.3 setup and this seems to use the same configs and everything.

Its not an installer, its a program.exe file :) 
Hm 
Will take a look at that.

Don't use the fix button for that error message - what it does is delete all the keys it thinks are broken - so it removes all your entity configurations.

Need to get the RMQ fgd to stop reporting that crap.

In fact the only time you want to use Fix or Fix All is when you get a Texture Axis perpendicular to Face. The rest of the time it's best to just use the problems thing to find it, then fix the thing yourself. Like you've been doing from the sounds of it.

The perpendicular texture thing causes a corrupt bsp - and the chances are you won't even notice it since it doesn't affect all OS' / setups. Its caused when manipulating objects with vertex editing / slice. 
Preach 
hahaha thanks! 
Forgotten 
corps_removal? 
 
add to def.qc:

void () CorpseThink =
{
self.think = SUB_Remove;
self.nextthink = time + 30 + random() * 30;
};

All monsters in last death animation (ie example shambler):

void() sham_death11 =[ $death11, CorpseThink ] {};
 
Gtkradiant 
Thanks to Ricky who owes me 90 bucks Quest doesn't work on Win7 64bit and the Virual XP Mode doesn't help either, because of some fullscreen issue.

Gtkradiant 1.5 then (couldn't get the newer branches to run, there's no fool-proof installer/pack). What's really bothering me, though, is that one is so restricted to the entity definitions. You can't use custom entities without adding them to the def file first. So there's some stuff I can't do and don't know how to change it. For example, triggers are defined as brush-based and it's impossible to use them as point ents (and vice versa, e.g. an info_notnull with a brush) - doing so, Gtkradiant will disregard their position/dimensions in the display windows and move them all to the map origin.
What can I do about it? Is there an option to make the editor less anal about such things? 
New PC Negke? 
Try another editor maybe. There's bsp editor and maybe soon thanks to willem / ericw Toetag windows edition.

QuArK as well - although I hate the interface.

I think I remember you saying you hated the one from WC.

It's a pain upgrading OS. None of the Quake stuff just works any more. 
Negke 
I told you I was dual booting XP and Windows 7, and the way I see it is you havent lost anything, only the ability to run a REALLY old piece of software.

Try using Hammer.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!!! 
Pointing Fingers 
Worldcraft/hammer is only slightly more flexable about interchanging point entities for brush entities. If you remove the definition of an entity from the fgd file, then you can place it as either, which is helpful for func_illusionary. It does mean that you lose all the smart edit functions though, so for anything more complicated than func_illusionary it gets annoying.

The hack we incorportated into quoth was to create a series of wrapper functions like:

void() func_wall_point =
{
self.classname = "func_wall";
func_wall();
}

You can then define a "point" version of the entity in the def file.

I suppose you could also do this with a preprocessor of your map file added to the compile process. It could just do a find and replace in the .map file of "funcpoint" for "func". Assuming you never use the phrase in text fields or textures. Replacing

"classname" "funcpoint

with

"classname" "func

might be safer... 
 
ijed: Quark? lol

Ricky: So do I. But I told I would come back and complain no matter what. I actually might use a hammer on this computer sooner or later (and then come back to you to complain).

Preach: Yeah, I guess editing the def file and dublicate the entities in question is the only way. I don't need the smart edit functions except for the difficulty spawnflags. 
 
Just run Quest in Linux in Virtualbox? 
Wc 
Smart Edit are the only functions you keep if there's no entry in the .fgd - then you can just add and remove keys by typing them in.

You have to keep copy pasting entities though to not fill them out by hand. Which gets very annoying, as does the 'using invalid keys' report.

On the other hand a fgd is easy to write and amend and lets you set your own default values for stuff like lights.

We use a similar wrapper list for backwards and cross compatibility. I think doing Find/Replace on each compile would get irritating quickly. 
 
negke

Quark is POWER!!!

Stop using lames editors!

Is about time u get pro... and Quark is easy and fast! 
Negke 
Interesting point about Radiant's inflexibility wrt point/brush entities.

Hadn't noticed actually, because I prefer to code in QC instead of in the map editor :-P 
Negke 
Is using GTKRadiant 1.4 an option for you? I don't recall it being so restrictive about entities. 
In Defense Of Find/replace 
I was assuming that you would make the find/replace a part of your batch file you use to compile maps, so once you had set it up you'd never need to do it again. I'm sure this is easy to do with grep, but I don't know the syntax myself. It's possible to do with FOR /F in a windows batch file, but good luck to you if you try. It would be hacker friendly at least, as it doesn't require a custom progs. 
Hm 
That would work fine yeah. 
Grahf 
There was something about 1.4 I didn't like and which felt better in 1.5. Couldn't find a Q1 version of 1.4 so I haven't tested it again. 
1.4 Vs 1.5 
Does 1.5 still use the .def/.qc file format for entity lists? Because in 1.4, and all other Radiants going way back in time, it will parse the /* QUAKED */ entity notes straight out of a qc file. The format is dead simple too. I recall 1.5 and later changing the format to some byzantine XML monstrosity. I think you are actually right about Radiant not wanting to convert something it thinks is a point entity to a brush ent, and vice versa, because what I have in my .def file is two info_notnull entities, like this:

/*QUAKED info_notnull (0 0.5 0) (-4 -4 -4) (4 4 4) */

/*QUAKED info_notnull (0 0.5 0) ? */

The first is a point ent, you can see it has a bounding box. The second is a brush ent, its size is "?," i.e., whatever you make it. Inside the comment brackets I've dumped some of the cool hacks from the "teaching an old progs.dat new tricks" thread, so I can refer to them easily.

Radiant 1.5 changed the interface in a lot of subtlety annoying ways to make it more like a 3D modelling prog. If that suits you, cool, but it sure didn't do it for me.

With 1.4 you have to go through a texture and game file converting process to get it working correctly for Q1, which is described here:
http://industri.sourceforge.net/howto.php

Actually you should try Sikkpin's QuakeEd, it's all the goodness of oldschool Radiant, specifically built for Q1:
http://www.celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=60225&start=133
No gamepacks, reads wads directly. 
 
1.5 can use both, either XML or .def.

It seems to dislike /* ... */ for anything else than entity definitions - I had to change all my comments to

//
//

I'm not going back to Quest though. I map five times faster in Radiant.

You can set it to use .def files in the config file. It comes with a vanilla Quake XML entity file though. 
 
The latest version of 1.5 is not my friend, I do not like it,I want SPoG back working on it to get it back to how it was when 1.5 was 'new.' This latest version has very uncool features that I wish were removed and/or reverted. I am considering switching to Ogier.

/rant 
 
Grahf: Having to go through a texture conversion process every time I want to try a new wad sounds like hell of a hassle. :/
Could you send me your .def file? If 1.5 supports .def files as well, this might be an option. So far, I worked around the restriction issue by simply deleting the four or five conflicting entities from the default def.

gb: It definitely feels like a fast editor. Many current nitpicks are probably just matters of unfamiliarity that disappear once one gets used to the program after a while. I wouldn't even consider the def thing a major issue. However, there are other things I'm not sure of in the long run. I kind of get the feeling the way it works affects the shapes of my brushwork. Creating complex architecure, particularly of the trisoup type, must be a lot more difficult if not impossible?). The 2d hide/group function might be a sluggy, too. I wish there was an additional farclip option.
How do select entities in 2d mode? Through brushes and possbily cycling through all entities on the same plane (like alt+shift+click does for brushes).

Zwiffle: Like what? I assume you're talking about the latest nightly build (which I use) and not the stable version? What I find annoying, for instance, are things like the target/name change when cloning entities.


(I probably wrote the same stuff before..) 
 
How do select entities in 2d mode? Through brushes and possbily cycling through all entities on the same plane (like alt+shift+click does for brushes).

yes, they are selected just like brushes. 
 
Indeed, I see it now. Must have done something wrong yesterday then. 
Texture Values Cleared? 
I hadn't looked on the speedmap I mentioned a while back for a bit now... too busy with school.

I opened it up from my computer just now (not from within WC), and now all the textures values are cleared!

anything that was scaled down, or shifted has gone back to 0!

Any idea what happened there?

I haven't even checked what the entity values are like!

...

okay, they seem fine...

Is there a way to fix this, besides readjusting everything manually?

...it's pretty simple map so if that's what I have to do it won't suck that much. 
How Can This Be? 
Perhaps each of the editors uses a slightly different map format. Better finish the map in WC then.

Also try to get generic and/or Zwiffle to make a speedmap, too. 
Oh Hey 
Just found this: http://kneedeepinthedoomed.wordpress.com/2010/03/20/tutorials/
Nice tutorial, gb.

Netradiant sounds like something I should give a try - if it's indeed like 1.5 with additional features. E.g. being able to change the keyboard shortcuts. 
Yes 
WC has a unique texture system - that's how it does proper locking and a couple of other tricks. 
Netradiant 
So far it gives me some memory error every single time on load, ctrl+tab doesn't go to the next view like it said, it crashes when loading certain .wad files.

>:( 
 
My main niggle with it is that minimizing it causes all windows (I use detached windows for 2d, textures, camera) to minimize individually, and when returning it from the task bar, they all stay minimized. 
 
Yeah, that's a pain in the ass too, and kind of freaked me out when it happened. 
Whoa There 
> ctrl+tab doesn't go to the next view

that sucks. I'll have to install Netradiant and filter out these differences :-/

You would think they wouldn't change something as important as this. Maybe the key bindings menu will help.

Linux has no "windows inside windows" feature as far as I know - it has draggable borders between the viewports - that sounds terribly like Windows 3.11. Workgroups, right? 
 
Ctrl-Tab works. Sometimes it is not doing it right but that seems to be a focus issue. Going to 3D view and back fixes it for me. 
Anti-fud 
And you can use floating windows just fine if you want. Your window manager controls them! Yes, you get one item in the taskbar per window, just like GIMP did it. With workspaces that is very very handy.

http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/screen_shots/netradiant-linux.jpg 
Drew - Worldcraft Texutre Loading Problem: 
I think you might have loaded the .map file instead of the .rmf file.

RMF format includes valve 220 texture protocol (supported by TxQbsp), but the .map format wont allow you to load the information back into your editor.
So basically you have to always save your .rmf file, then save your .map file then do a compile. Then when you go back to re-edit the map you need to laod the .rmf file.

If you accidentally loaded a .map file, then did a compile from there without noticing that the textures were mis-aligned then it will have overwritten the .rmf file with the .map file's texture info and you will have lost it.

I would set .map file to default to a text editors format, so they all have a text editor icon. 
Quake1 .def 
there's one bundled with sleepwalkr's mapcon
http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/industri/mapcon_java.zip

this one has some tenebrae stuff in it apparently?
http://industri.sourceforge.net/txt/quake.def

It's just a text file. Negke, open it up and find info_notnull, and paste the brush info_notnull entity into there, without deleting the point info_notnull. Put a note inside the /* comment */ to remind yourself which is which, as there will be two entries in the entity list. Like this:

/*QUAKED info_notnull (0 0.5 0) ?

Invisible entity. Used for clever hacks.

*/
 
Ahaha Yeah You're Right! 
what a weiner! I just patched it up anyways, I think there were like 8 textures that needed alignment in the whole map.


thanks ricky, you're awesome! 
Spirit 
Interesting, I don't think I can do that though. I don't even have a taskbar, I use openbox :)

Not FUD, anyway. I'm not sure if you're aware that FUD has a super-negative meaning; I don't think my post deserved that. 
NP :D 
I have made the same mistake more times than I care to mention :S 
Grahf 
Thanks. Doesn't seem to work in 1.5, though. It only recognizes one entry per name.

I guess I'll have to go with Preach's suggestion for now (into_notnull_brush->find/replace). Because as it turned out, deleting the entry altogether works for info_notnull, but makes the program treat triggers like point ents. 
Backpack? 
Hey,

How do you make an ammo backpack in quake/quoth, and how do you set what goes in it...

can you put health in there?

Also

What is a good sound for a large, slowly spinning cog in quoth? I tried the one that goes with dias.wav, but it's not the best.
it's a big cog.

kind of like that one in sm156_necros... 
Hlwad 
I can't seem to convert wads to hlwad, I get this message...

Error creating HLWAD: c:\program files\worldcraft\textures\decon.hlwad ... details ...No log exists.

Error creating HLWAD: c:\program files\worldcraft\textures\zerst�rer.hlwad ... details ...No log exists.

I'm on win7 is that makes a difference.

Also is there a way to brighten the 3d view in Wc3.3

Thank you. 
Player Backpack And Ghost Medkit 
"classname" "info_notnull"
"think" "PlaceItem"
"nextthink" ".3"
"touch" "BackpackTouch"
"model" "progs/backpack.mdl"
"modelindex" "##"
// look it up on the edicts list
"ammo_shells" "##"
"ammo_nails" "##"
"ammo_rockets" "##"
"ammo_cells" "##"
// if 0, just leave the field out
"items" "##" // values from defs.qc, e.g. 32=RL
"netname" "abc" // for the 'You got the abc' message if weapons are given

For this to work properly in DP, you may need to add "maxs" "16 16 56".


Obviously, you can't give the player health through a backpack. But you can put an invisible medkit in the same spot so it gets picked up automatically.

"classname" "info_notnull"
"think" "PlaceItem"
"nextthink" ".3"
"touch" "health_touch"
"healtype" "#"
// 0 or 1 for <100, 2 for <250 (MH)
"healamount" "###"
"model" "maps/b_bh25.bsp"
// if precached - or use backpack/player.mdl instead for the bbox
Leaving the modelindex field out will make the item invisible, yet still functional.

Again, "maxs" "32 32 56" for DP and, if you want it not to play the health pickup sound, "noise" "misc/null.wav"
Quoth Compatibility 
Keep in mind though that Quoth 2 handles some of the models differently, which results in different modelindex values. So unless you add a Quoth detection system, a backpack that shows properly in id1 will use a different model in Quoth 2 (and vice versa, even though this isn't really a problem).

Also, the second "maxs" field in the post above should read "16 16 56" of course. 
Maxs 
Gah. Actually "32 32 56" is correct. 
Hrm 
what goes wrong in DP without maxs being set?

used backpacks for ammo in the speedmap i did earlier this week but didn't know about that 
 
I encountered an issue in my coag map where you couldn't pick up the item in DP if it didn't have the maxs field. However, I actually can't remember if it was a backpack or another item. I just tried another map that has a backpack without said field and it worked in DP. So I'm not sure if it was just something related to the DP build I used back then or a mistake on my part. Sorry for the confusion. 
Negke 
Awesome trick !!! 
Lol 
I tried to give the sewrpent a squaddamage backpack. Think I didn't knew it was a serpent.

http://members.home.nl/gimli/quaddama.jpg 
Then 
I copied the void()BackPackTouch and DropBackPack function as new in ITEMS.QC
as I couldn't see a skeleton dropping one.
Its own weapon makes more sense.

http://members.home.nl/gimli/backpak.jpg 
Cool Stuff 
 
 
would anyone be interested in like a gui that takes the place of a batch file?

i making one for myself, but if people want it, i'll make it pretty looking and bug test it. 
^^^ 
mm, i guess that's what i get for posting so late at night...
what i meant was a gui that compiles q1 maps. i would allow you to easily toggle stuff like -fast and such and move your files around and such. 
I'd Be Interested 
 
 
cool, maybe in like a couple of days. fyi, it's just visual basic, cause i don't actually know how to program. ^_^; 
Map Building On Linux 
Hi Guys,

I think this has been asked before but atm I can't find the answer...

Are there Quake Map Build tools that can be run on Linux?

Thanks,
jimbo 
 
Editors: Quest, Gtkradiant
Compilers: Bengt Jardrup's tools work fine on Wine. gb ported some of them to Linux once, but I don't have a link at hand. 
As Mentioned 
here's the compiler gui i was talking about...
instructions to use it are on this page:
http://shoresofnis.wordpress.com/2010/03/30/ne_q1spcompilinggui/

most of the stuff should be fairly obvious, but the 'instructions' are lengthy and pretty verbose. ask if anything explodes though. 
Looks Nice 
two things though..

the vis option should be 'level 4', not 'level4', get an error with the latter

'+map whatever' should just be added automatically behind the scenes rather than requiring to be typed in. if you've selected the 'run quake' option you probably aren't going to want to load a different map to the one you're compiling :)

and it needs an icon ;) 
Hrm 
thinking about it, that second thing should probably account for more than just mapname, and figure out the gamedir/path as well, based on what is set as the output folder. is that something that would be easy to do?

say if i keep my created bsps in id1/maps/other, it would do '+map other/[mapname]'

yet if someone decided to put them in quoth/maps/other, it could work out that '-game quoth +map other/[mapname]' would need to be entered... 
Making Hlwad's 
This works for me

1. Make a "logs" folder inside the
wordcraft\textures folder.
2. Create a new .txt document in same folder,
and copy the following:

wadconv.exe -wad2hl mywad.wad>logs\mywad.log
exit

3. Rename the .txt document to:

mywad.bat

4. Rename any .wad your converting to:

mywad.wad

5. Then rename it zerstorer.wad or whatever it is.

Don't know about Win7 though. 
 
You can (should be able to) do all the renaming stuff in the .bat too, using parameters and whatnot so you don't have to do so many manual renamings. 
Thank You 
That worked great. 
Err 
Step 5 should be...

5. Double click mywad.bat

6. Then rename it zerstorer.hlwad or whatever
it is. 
Rj 
regarding +map, you're right, it should probably just do that automatically.

but for things like -game or whatever, i don't want to add any automation because each engine does it differently.

say if i keep my created bsps in id1/maps/other, it would do '+map other/[mapname]'

yet if someone decided to put them in quoth/maps/other, it could work out that '-game quoth +map other/[mapname]' would need to be entered...


but say for example, i wanted to run a mod folder outside of quoth (so you can make your own pak files), fitzquake has -quoth, but darkplaces uses multiple -game
so if you were running a mod folder of quoth, you'd do:
fq -quoth -game mod +map map
dp -game quoth -game mod +map map

also, the output folder wouldn't be a quoth folder, so there's no way for the program to tell if it's a quoth map or just a normal mod map.

as for the problem with vis -level 4 vs level4, i just put those in quick. you can edit any of those buttons by right clicking them and choosing 'edit', so the gui should work with all compilers. 
 
as for the problem with vis -level 4 vs level4, i just put those in quick. you can edit any of those buttons by right clicking them and choosing 'edit', so the gui should work with all compilers.

ah right, missed that bit 8)

fair comments on the mod folders i guess. quoth was just the first example that came to mind but forgot you could use external directories with it. i'd still love the folder within 'maps' to be picked up though as well as the name as i keep all of my own maps in '/other' 
Linux Map Build Tools 
Thanks negke
I managed to find this site: http://tldp.org/HOWTO/html_single/Quake-HOWTO/

which has the port of bjptools you mentioned.

Doing good with that so far.

Have you tried running hammer in wine? 
Ne_q1spCompilingGui V1.0.1 
http://necros.quaddicted.com/downloads/ne_q1spCompilingGui101.zip

updated it so it launches the map automatically for you when running quake. it can figure out if your maps are in /maps or /maps/other or even /maps/any/number/of/folders. 
<3 
 
What To Do 
I'm sure the answer to what I'm about to ask is very obvious, but I need clarification. Consider the following scenario:

� Player walks into a room with only 1 entrance. There is an object in the room.

� The player can walk anywhere in the room and freely enter and exit the room as many times as they wish, as long as they do not grab the object.

� The player grabs the object in the room. Nothing happens.

� The player proceeds to exit the room after having grabbed the object, but when the player is a few feet away from the exit, a door will slam shut blocking the exit. The door will eventually open again either after a certain amount of time, or after the player completes a specific task.

How can I go about creating something similar to this? 
 
i believe you can use the trigger spawning hack (find it in the teaching progs.dat new tricks thread).

essentially, you make a brush entity called info_notnull and give it a use of "trigger_once" or something like that so that when the notnull is triggered it becomes a trigger.
you use that spawned trigger to close the door and start whatever event you want. 
 
I was gonna say the spike shooter thing, but yeah. that's much simpler. 
Metl 
I was just looking at the read me for contract revoked, and Kell thanks you for "drawing [Kell's] attention to the 'powers of 2'"

What are the 'powers of 2'? 
Thank You Necros 
Much appreciated :) 
Drew: 
I'm not really sure since it's been so long, but maybe I had told him about how non-power-of-two textures get resampled by gl-based engines and how bad it looks compared to power of two textures. 
Hmm 
That or brush sizes relating to compile times 
Power Of 2 
As a rule of thumb everything in games should be a power of two, if not a multiple of.

Off-grid is non multiple of. Textures that aren't a power of two get resized at the whim of the graphics card (stretched or squashed up/down left/right) like metl says. 
 
Unless the engine prevents that. Good engines (Fitz, DP, jdhack's) do. :-)

I have a half-written post about that. 
 
Huh. 
makes sense! 
Non-power-of-two Images 
GLQuake

resamples all of them using a crappy "nearest pixel" filter. The result is that you see specific rows or columns of pixels being repeated. Spirit's screenshot shows this, you can see what looks like columns of double-wide pixels but actually that's just two columns with the same exact pixel colors.

Fitzquake

1. hud/menu graphics, model skins, and sprite frames: images are padded with empty pixels to make them powers of two, and texture coordinates are modified so you only see the actual artwork part of the image. This means they look as good as power-of-two textures, since there is no resampling or distortion.

2. world textures: since they have to be able to tile, these textures can't be padded, so they are resampled using bilinear sampling to be a power-of-two size. This still degrades the image somewhat, but looks better than glquake's resampling.

Aguirre's glquake

Aguirre does bilinear resampling, similar to fitzquake, but for all images. So menu/hud/skins/sprites are also somewhat degraded, but not as bad as glquake.

Other engines

not sure, i haven't researched other engines. 
Bug? 
Hello there, I was making some maps for Quake and Hexen 2, but in one of my maps, in some places when I crouch I fall through the floor and keep falling. I tried everything...Anybody here experienced such thing? I�m using Unofficial Quake engine(UQE). 
ATI FINALLY Fixes Their Drivers 
I was fooling around with my new machine trying to get Hammer to work. The same shit was happening again with the selection bug in the 3D view. I couldn't believe it. REALLY?! Still?

But, if you install the latest Catalyst drivers from the ATI site the bug goes away! So if you're an ATI user who has been wanting to use Hammer, you're all clear! It finally works. 
 
Mathuzzz some times when we rotate textures and objects some of then give some weardo leaks is that the case? 
 
you can't crouch in quake..? are you using a mod? it's possible it's a bug in the mod or something. 
 
Actually it happenes in Hexen, where you can crouch.

Trinca, yes I made some texture scaling/manipulating there, but when I deleted all those brushes, the problem remained. 
Is The Ground Underneath 
Made of wedges?

It could be an off-grid collision bug. 
I Mean 
If there's complicated brushwork for the walls / floor that's not on the grid it can cause hull issues - the player being able to move outside hull0. 
 
OK, so I found out that there were some complicated brushes, it took me the whole day to trace them. It is really a pain to make a little realistic and complicated outdoor place there with Quark. 
Solutions: 
For complicated stuff you can make it a .mdl - but chances are you don't have the software, knowhow or that Hexen doesn't support placement of .mdls and would have to be coded in (I haven't made anything in it).

If you can place .mdl then you can also place .bsp. This is something I've been experimenting with recently and having good results.

You'll probably need to code it into the game though, or ask someone to do it for you. I do have a piece of code that will do it, but I don't know how compatible it will be with Hexen, and it's not finished yet either - doesn't have collision. 
 
OK ... so which light compiler is the one to use on Windows these days? I'd like something with sunlight and colored lighting support... 
AFAIK 
Tyrann's - sorry no link.

But its very limited compared to AguirRe's (which doesn't have coloured light) in that it only supports so many light entities so big maps aren't feasible.

I think one of Spirit's bounties is to add coloured light support to AguirRe's tools. 
 
Tyrlite 0.99e

You are allowed 1 sun, unlike AguirRe's tool which lets you have more than one sun.

As for the entity limit, someone posted a link to a hacked version that was made on my request (!) but I havent had a chance to use yet :O

I forget where it was too 
 
OK ... am I missing this feature? Does Worldcraft/Hammer have a quick way to automatically link up entities via target/targetname? It must, right? I don't have to manually label them all, do I? 
Yes 
Though there's copy paste. 
 
Really? Huh. I thought that was a standard feature in Quake based editors these days. 
Hammer 
Is very cumbersome in many ways. In modern hammer (Source hammer) you can auto-complete a lot of the names if you have already named your entities, which is alright, but no shortcuts afaik for targeting those entities. Not sure about HL1 hammer. 
It Has The 
ability to have one field open in the enitity window and select point entities in the 2D biew in the background without having to shut the dialogue down.

Dont use it Willem. 
I Find Entity Report 
Very useful, though it doesn't provide you any sort of graphical representation, like a trigger tree or anything. 
Heh 
i can't stand the auto targetting stuff. i used it a bit in doom3edit but when i'd go back and try to check entity links, i could never figure out where t73 matched and what the heck does t94 go to?? o.0 :P
but then, when i look at the q1 source maps, i saw (to some dismay) that id used that for all their maps. o.o
i guess it's just one of my weird things that i do, but i prefer to spend an extra second to name my entity 'mainRoom_bigDoor2_left' than 't44'. :P 
Auto Targetting 
BspEditor allows you to highlight your trigger and then CTRL/left-click your target to auto complete, but like necros, I prefer to give myself (er, my map elements) meaningful target names. 
 
i should mention that doom3edit does the auto targeting right at least. i learnt later than if you name your targeted entity first, then autotarget a trigger at it, it will assign a 'target' key that matches the targetname (instead of rewriting) 
Doh... 
So it does in BspEditor. Well, you live and learn. 
 
when i'd go back and try to check entity links, i could never figure out where t73 matched and what the heck does t94 go to?? o.0 :P
but then, when i look at the q1 source maps, i saw (to some dismay) that id used that for all their maps. o.o


Very annoying when you're trying to remake them. Not having to deal with that was a welcome side effect of finally (re)starting from scratch. 
 
In just grew up used to it I guess since id had it in their editor and then QERadiant continued with the feature. I assumed it was a staple which is why I added it to ToeTag!

The only place it's going to be a hassle is when doing, say, a metal map where you have tons of spotlights to set up. Blah... Although maybe targeting an info_null isn't necessary anymore as I saw something in the light docs about giving a regular light an angle... 
Spotlight Angles 
have been pretty standard in most light apps for the past ~10 years or so! 
In Quake Anyway 
(not sure on hindsight whether you were actually talking about it) 
I Think You Can Give Any Light An Angle...? 
and yeah, the key is 'pitch yaw 0'

(zero is placeholder, because rotating a conical light source doesnt really do anything) 
 
"have been pretty standard in most light apps for the past ~10 years or so!"

Well, I've been out of the mainstream Quake editing world for over 10 years so ... new to me! :) 
 
which light app are you using?

i'd recommend the one here if you aren't already using it: http://user.tninet.se/~xir870k/ (bundled with rvis) 
 
Darkplaces uses gl non power of two extension 
RaVeN: 
Ah, that figures. Since my card doesn't have it, it doesn't look very good for me :) 
Sound 
I have a trigger_once, that triggers four teleporter monsters.
I made all teleporters silent.
I want to use this trigger silent, but the options show
1 secret
2 beepbeep
3 largeswitch
and 4.

I may be a nooblib, but should I fill in silent? 
 
just leave 'sounds' set to 0 to be silent. (this is the default behaviour). 
Button Textures! 
anyone know of some good button textures? i'm looking for something that would fit in a quake medieval/metal theme.
tired of the metal Q button, copper pentagram and red dagger on sunburst buttons. :P 
Necros 
Knave cross button. Daikatana episode 3 buttons/tiles. One of the red rune tiles in metal.wad. Some distinct square metal panel with an interesting brush frame. Existing button texture remixed and rearranged with mirror/rotate. 
Okay 
so I disabled UAC in order to allow for texture usage.
Now all of my rmf files are gone. And my Quoth game mode was gone from WC. wtf? I still have some of my .map files, but of course the textures are all fucked.

sucks. 
 
That sounds funky. Has someone else been using your machine?

It's just a security option, not a 'bin my stuff' option... although it is Windows.

AFAIK the .map format should retain the texture alignment as well since it's a modified form with a load of extra detail written in. 
Yeah 
I'm pretty confused regarding that situation - I rebooted, and then my files were gone. Maybe I'm being a retard - I'm NOT much of a computer dude, like most people on func.

I'll keep poking around, but it was mostly crap scraps anyway, not too much of worth - just one or two files which were at all important to me.

I never had issues with alignment in .map files until when I was making sm 160 - RT23 gave me some tips on it earlier in the thread.
Is it a WC 3.3 issue only? 
Its An "improvement" 
Just remember to save to .rmf format and you cant go wrong :) 
Vorelings 
I am not sure where the code comes (it was released some time ago) from but in the verion I have, they don't cling to the ceiling. Is there a flag to set in the editor?

Anyone know? 
Mike 
from the quoth mapping tutorial
Vorelings can be made to begin in a map hanging from a ceiling so that they can drop down on unsuspecting players. To do this, place the monster below a ceiling and set the key/value "dangle" "1"

http://kell.quaddicted.com/quoth/quoth_tutorial.html#voreling 
Spy 
Thanks 
 
does zipping a map file create micro leaks/brush misalignments?
dug a map out of a backup archive and there seem to be way more 1 unit misalignments than i remember. 
I Hope You Are Joking 
zip is lossless 
 
heh, i dunno. it was the only thing i could think of. i could have swore i repaired the errors after making the backup, and it seemed like there were about 10x as many this time around. :P 
 
Which editor? If it stores the planes in the MAP file as floats, it might be floating point creep. 
 
it is floating point creep.
i was trying to figure out how to get aguirre's convmap to correct the inaccuracies (that's what it was originally coded for), but i couldn't. :S 
 
that's what it was originally coded for
that's what it was originally used for (by me).
i used it to correct floating point inaccuracy when i was mapping with quark407 way back. 
Marksurfaces... 
This is my first time working on a map that pushes the marksurfaces limit, so i'm learning what exactly that limit means.

1. Other people have said "sometimes you can exceed it a little bit and it's okay". I just now confirmed that this is true, i have a map that doesn't crash win/glquake with 32806 marksurfaces.

2. I used to think that brush entities didn't add marksurfaces, but i just found that adding a func_wall increased my count. So they do.

3. GLQuake doesn't use marksurfaces at all when rendering brush entities, only uses them on world rendering. I wonder about winquake....

THEORY: you will crash only if the world itself has more than 32767 marksurfaces. If it has less, and only adding the brush entity marksurfaces pushes you over the limit, then you're okay. 
Metl 
I was thinking, does a func_illusionary add marksurfaces? I know a func_wall does, and it adds clipnodes aswell, but I'm not sure about func_illusionaries. 
Ricky: 
all brush entities should work the same way... the only difference is quakec (which the compiler doesn't know anything about) 
 
had that problem in tchak... marksurfaces made me cut on some details i wanted to add :| 
I've 
Started to implement point versions of all brush entities, which should be able to lower such limits significantly, and make build time quicker as well, since the mapper only needs to make their map's atypical door / crate / cog once. 
Metlslime 
Actually it depends of what the engine has to render in real time. If you have a very good occlusion mapping style, then it is not a problem, else you have troubles...
Or you can use an enhanced engine with over-standard limit support.

As example in CDA the max marksurfaces was exceeding 32786 (i.e ~35000 if I remember well), and it requires a decent engine to play the map: i.e WinQuake is definitely not suporting it ;) 
So 
Spawned .bsp's will still add to the total? 
 
JPL: Well, i should mention that i want this map to play in all engines. So i am actually trying to understand the marksurfaces limit as well as possible. (also to help other people understand it too, of course.) As it turns out i am under the limit again (deleted a couple of less-important details.)

ijed: external bsp models (like ammo and health) should not affect marksurfaces because the problem is the index overflowing (stock engines treat the indexes as signed shorts, meaning 32768 will be loaded as -32767 and when you try to use that negative index on your marksurfaces array it will go outside the array.) External bsp models have their own arrays, so it should work. (to the best of my knowledge.) 
 
i believe that trick where you reuse bsp models inside the map doesn't increase marksurfaces either, just the original. 
So It's Releasable? 
 
 
metlslime

"i should mention that i want this map to play in all engines"

This one of my goals in all my maps!!!

hope you can kill the bug ;) 
The Engine Question 
I feel myself going in the direction of simply requiring Darkplaces. What's the problem? It's cross platform and open source, free as in beer... looks better than other engines, supports a crackload of extensions, custom assets in various formats, and gigantic maps, and it's stable enough. SDL and GL versions, too. Can't ask for much more.

I also like how video capture is piss easy in Darkplaces. You can even plug those *.ogvs directly into youtube.

rockin' engine. Sure, quakespasm is nice, too. Just not enough support for things like csqc, and slightly old school graphics...

a problem with many quake engines is the fact that they are just missing features that DP or FTE have had for years. Old school is well and good, but it's 2010. Custom HUD elements via CSQC would be nice. So would squad AI and stick physics or ODE. These things exist, but aren't supported by enough engines. :-/

Wouldn't want to live without .ogg support for the soundtrack either. No idea why other engines don't have that. 
Well 
It's a case of multiple support - DP only makes you even more niche if you're on the dev side.

Quakespasm / fitz is a decent standard now with the raised limits. It's not flash looking but not everyone likes Quake to be and any made specifically for it can still be played in DP for those who do. 
 
> DP only makes you even more niche if you're on the dev side.

How so? Don't most modders, quite some mappers and a lot of players use Darkplaces? 
Also 
engines get used when they're required. Just like Windows. 
I Mean 
There's quirks / fixes / features in DP that aren't in other engines, so bugs can slip through the net if you only test in DP.

We've had a few, remember :) 
True 
but if you *require* DP, isn't it enough if it runs in DP?

(getting hypothetical I guess) 
...this Sounds Like An Internal Discussion, But... 
i've skipped all releases that didn't play in fitzquake 080. when 085 was released with increased limits, i went back and played them.

otoh, i was fully ready to require fitzquake for ne_cath if it had been released because the maps didn't load in any other custom engine (it seems not many people bump up max static entities). 
Sure DP 
Only is a reasonable requirement, but I prefer to play it safe and support 'lesser' engines as well to hurt the 'customer base'. 
I Can Barely Run DP 
unless i go back to like one of the first releases

then i might as well use rocks instead of hammers, and stone wheels instead of pneumatic tires :/ 
 
I have a Geforce FX5500, which was like 30 euros. I'm sure they're cheaper on ebay. My machine is a P4 from 2004... the recent DP allows me to put effects and lighting to "Quake" levels very quickly, putting me near 100 FPS most of the time.

> skipped all releases that didn't play in fitzquake 080

Er, why?

> to hurt the 'customer base'.

I see what you mean, but you can't get much friendlier than win/lin/mac and free as in beer. Depending on Fitzquake, or one of its offspring, to implement support for the most basic new features anytime soon is kind of a gamble, seeing where Fitzquake comes from. I had hopes for QSB, but not much is happening there lately.

A general discussion btw, not strictly RMQ related. I just want to use csqc and a couple other things for my projects. I see that my options are limited. 
 
Not a RMQ discussion. Didn't want to go down the singular engine route, otherwise would have gone for some genuinely more advanced engine. Would have been much more work but visually far beyond even DP's capabilities.

Talking about something like Doom3 or Crysis.

Something would have been lost though. It's one reason why no hirez. At least yet. 
 
Er, why?
because they didn't play in fq080.

i think i weathered through tronyn's masque in dp (both when testing and then to play properly), because the map was ridiculously cool, but i enjoyed it a lot more when i was able to replay it in fq085. mind you, dp wasn't as good in 07 as it is now. it was generally slower and the version i used back then had some weird bugs which are all fixed now.

i shall address your initial points:
It's cross platform and open source
i'm on windows and i can only compile source files on my work machine with microsoft visual studio. completely indifferent.

free as in beer
all engines are, and if they aren't i wouldn't even look twice at it. this isn't really a plus or minus.

looks better than other engines
subjective and debatable. it's not ugly though, and the presets in the menu do a good job of setting things up.
still, i prefer FQ because it has cleaner, solid particles. DP at 'quake settings' has fuzzy particles like they are covered in fur.

supports a crackload of extensions
i haven't really wanted to mod anything that can't be done in normal qc. indifferent.

custom assets in various formats
all i really need is external tga textures to circumvent the quake palette and skyboxes, which FQ already does. indifferent.

gigantic maps
not sure if it's changed recently, but FQ has higher limits for static entities which prevented a map i was making from loading in DP.

it's stable enough.
no arguments there, i've never had the engine crash during gameplay. but neither does FQ. indifferent.

SDL and GL versions
i suspect this is more to do with portability? i am using quakespasm atm because it fixes the 64 bit + dual core + w7 problem in fitzquake. not because it's sdl.
whether it's sdl or not, opengl or directx, really doesn't affect me in any way since it either works or it doesn't. indifferent.

there is one thing that i care about that DP has over FQ though, and that is the increased accuracy on angles. or maybe the engine interpolates angle changes. the point is my cogs and gears accelerate to full rotation speed very very smoothly and slowly rotating brushes don't have to deal with low precision angles. :)
oh, and snd_spatialization is pretty sweet and easy on the ears.

finally, and i hesitate to bring it up because it's not very quantifiable, but even at 'quake settings', DP runs slower than FQ. when developing maps, i'm routinely running around with 20k wpoly and maybe 50-90k epoly. DP slows down to a crawl, and no way would i use one engine to develop on and another to play.

your later post:
Custom HUD elements via CSQC would be nice. So would squad AI and stick physics or ODE.
for this stuff, wouldn't you be better off in idtech4? it's 2010 after all. ;)
the AAS system makes ai and pathfinding very simple and the gui stuff is one of the 'big' things about idtech4. the physics engine leaves something to be desired though, it's pretty shit. :\ (what's ODE physics?)

anyway, you shouldn't be so worried about if 100% of the community will play your mod or not. i'm sure there are people who hate quoth with a passion and curse every map that comes out that requires it.
just do your idea for DP and if it's awesome enough, it might even entice other engine coders to update their stuff to be compatible with it. or it might not. but at least you made something bad ass, that's really what's important, no? 
Lighting Entities 
I have three entities that will move during in the game. They are equally spaced and between and around them I have lights. The two outer entites are lit correctly but the middle one is not lit.

Are there special considerations when lighting certain types of entity? I though that they picked up their lighting characteristics from the surface below them so was expecting all three to be lit the same. 
 
you're talking about point entities?
it also depends if you have sky brushes below. you have to bury a normal brush inside the sky brush.
also, the original quake engine only checked a certain amount below them, if the floor was further than that amount, they would just be full dark.
that's all i can think of. 
'kin' Plonker I Am 
So I know that the 'kin' entity takes its 'kin' light from the 'kin' surface below, so why the 'kin' hell did I 'kin' delete the 'kin' brush before I compiled the 'kin' test map!

I need to stop drinking... no, I need another drink...

(thanks anyway necros) 
Haha 
awesome! ^_^ 
Gtk/netradian And Darkplaces 
Hello, i have the ID.wad file in the /quake/id1 folder, but the radiant cant load the textures... I selected the darkplaces game and setupped properly, but i dont have any texture in the editor... pls help 
 
ID.wad in id1/gfx/ perhaps? 
 
no 
 
Some error logs from GTK/Net radiant...
Unable to find default tag file C:/Program Files/GtkRadiant 1.5.0/darkplaces.game/shadertags.xml. No tag support.
Unable to find default tag file D:/NetRadiant/darkplaces.game/shadertags.xml. No tag support.
When i try to FlushReloadShaders in Netradiant:
Parsing shader files from D:/Games/DPquake/id1/scripts/shaderlist.txt
Unable to read shaderfile scripts/common.shader
Unable to read shaderfile scripts/quake.shader 
Question 
I'm getting an error from TXQBSP, "Invalid brush plane format on line (x)." I think the map file might be corrupt but I'm hoping there's something I can do about it, but I don't understand the format well enough to figure out what's wrong. Anyone have any ideas? 
Have You Tried.. 
importing the .map file back into your editor? that normally weeds out any broken brushes. if not then load it in notepad, go to that line and delete the brush manually (each brush starts with a { and ends with a })

it might be a crucial brush.. but then i guess you'll notice its absence if it is :) 
Heh 
yeah I tried deleting the brush in question but then there was another one, and another, heh, so yeah I'll try re-importing. Thanks for the response.

Now I have another question, which is how do you generate an .ent file (to edit map entities) using just qbsp anda bsp file. 
Hmm 
wow, k I just tried importing from the .map, and the .map appears empty in hammer. now this is messed up. 
Ouch 
hrm. hammer uses a different kind of map format doesn't it?

as to the other question, i know adquedit is a dead useful little app that can do it with little hassle... 
Anyway.. Vertexing Question 
i actually came in here to ask a question of my own :)

(this for anyone who uses an editor that *isn't* WC 1.6)

say you have a cube, in your top down view, and clip it half vertically then horizontally so you have 4 brushes joined together. then you select all and go into your editor's vertex editing mode

in your top down view, you should now see 9 vertex points. when you click on the middle 'one' (there are actually 8 on that z-line but to the human eye in that view, it's one), how many actual vertices does your editor select? is it all 8, the top 4, one of the top 4 or one of the top 4 and the corresponding vertex below it on the same brush?

and what about selecting the top 'point' in 3D mode? all 4 or just the one?

WC1.6 will select 2 aligned vertices but only one brush at a time, and only ever the one in 3D view. just wondering if any others did it differently. at the moment i have to draw a selection box around the point and hit enter to move all of them at once, ultimately i'd like to just be able to click and drag (or hit an arrow key) to move all the vertices at that point 
 
have you tried drag-selecting all eight points or four points or whatever in 2d mode (while in vertex editing mode) and pressing entar? 
Yes 
at the moment i have to draw a selection box around the point and hit enter to move all of them at once, ultimately i'd like to just be able to click and drag (or hit an arrow key) to move all the vertices at that point

just wanting to save time/effort when doing lots of it 
I Think 
3.3 Selects the singular vertex closest to the view.

Seems like there should be an option for this, aside from the middle points on/off thing. 
Tronyn 
I had the same problem when you sent me your RWOP files ages ago - nothing in the active windows.

Probably the only workable option is to use the fix options inside of Worldcraft, but also figuring out a way for the map to stop eating itself with errors.

I've heard of this before but never of a solution. 
Tronyn 
could you copy and paste the line (and the whole brush) in question? maybe someone will notice what's wrong with the syntax.

( -1952 -1088 2368 ) ( -1920 -1056 2368 ) ( -1920 -1056 2336 ) metal5_60 31 63 90 1 1

here's a standard q1 format line in a brush definition.

3 xyz coordinates, followed by the name of the texture, then x offset for texture, y offset for texture, angle to be rotated, x scale, y scale. 
Have To Say 
I pretty much hate 3.3 now.

I think I might go back to 1.6... 
Well 
After starting with 3.3 I hated it. I thought about going back to 1.6a but then remembered all the little issues that version had as well.

They're both temperamental, at least with 3.3 there's proper texture lock. 
Q: So Why Don't You Use An Alternate Editor? 
A: Because now all my maps are in 3.3 texture format...

And I like the interface still. 
 
3.3 is better than 1.6 by a lot, but it's just so damn cumbersome compared to radiant.

I wish I had the balls to go make my own god damn editor with exactly what I wanted to work how I wanted it to work :( 
If There's Hope For Him 
I've Found 
that one of the actual reasons why a lot of my new stuff is on a larger scale than my old stuff, is the ability to move the camera a lot more smoothly and quickly in 3.3.

Heres the data for the first offending brush in the map:

{
( 144 -144 -256 ) ( 272 -144 -256 ) ( 272 -160 -256 ) METALL BARS [ 1 0 0 0 ] [ 0 -1 0 0 ] 0 1 1
( 272 -144 -384 ) ( 144 -144 -384 ) ( 160 -160 -384 ) METALL BARS [ 1 0 0 0 ] [ 0 -1 0 0 ] 0 1 1
( 272 -160 -256 ) ( 272 -160 -384 ) ( 160 -160 -384 ) METALL BARS [ 1 0 0 0 ] [ 0 0 -1 0 ] 0 1 1
( 272 -144 -384 ) ( 272 -144 -256 ) ( 144 -144 -256 ) METALL BARS [ 1 0 0 0 ] [ 0 0 -1 0 ] 0 1 1
( 160 -160 -256 ) ( 160 -160 -384 ) ( 144 -144 -384 ) METALL BARS [ 0 1 0 0 ] [ 0 0 -1 0 ] 0 1 1
( 272 -160 -384 ) ( 272 -160 -256 ) ( 272 -144 -256 ) METALL BARS [ 0 1 0 0 ] [ 0 0 -1 0 ] 0 1 1
Could It Be... 
Something as simple as the space in the texture name?

Just guessing. 
Is That A Quake Map File? 
Cause it doesn't look like one. 
 
Cause it doesn't look like one.
yes, it's valve 'mapversion 220' format file 
 
well, whatever it is, it needs to be converted into quake format.

you've got some strange syntax after the texture name (and i'm not sure you are allowed to have spaces either).
is that the enhanced texture positioning maybe? 
Texture Names With Spaces 
are a likely suspect. You should find & replace them with something else in a text editor and see if it works then. 
Connecting Levels? 
I'm certain this is a stupid question, but how do you link maps together so that the player can teleport to the next level(such as how it's done in the original Quake single player).

I know Half-Life used a "changelevel" entity, but I don't see that option available for Quake. Am I missing something?

Sorry if this is an obvious thing, but I can't seem to find an answer anywhere. I am using Worldcraft 3.3 with the Quake adapter if that helps.

Thanks in advance... 
Trigger_changelevel 
:-) 
Durr... 
That makes too much sense.

thanks rj... 
Weird Format 
Some tools do accept hammer map format and produce a quake 1 map, but I'd agree with everyone about the space in the texture name. 
Yes 
Those numbers are the extended texture format, and the compiler has no problem with them. Most quake map editors can't open maps with this extension, but if you're using the editor it was created by (WC3.3) then you'll have no problem.

Space in texture name sounds like the culprit... 
Iris Doors 
How do they work?

Rotating? If so, screw it :)

I've seen them in Quake but can't remember where... 
Bah 
Looks like it does work by rotating objects. Has anyone seen a non-rotating version? 
Iris 
I wonder if you can cheat. If you had two pairs of doors, one opening vertically and the other opening horizontally directly behind them, you'd end up with a square hole as you opened them. If you extended this idea to four pairs (and presumably made the doors fairly thin) you could make an octagon which might look quite iris like. 
Yeah 
that's kind of what I was thinking...

Will post any experiments that work. 
Iris Doors... 
don't need rotating, each slice just moves in a straight line. I think one of the IKBlue levels has this. 
That Sound About Right 
With pie slice floor texture.

I think it can't work vertically though, only horizontally. 
Iris Example 
And For Not QOOLE Users 
Re 9743 
that's not a real iris though. a true iris has pie shapes that rotate outwards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rskukxKo5UI

but yeah, what preach said works pretty good and looks really cool when opening and has the benefit of working as a vertical door. a lot of sci fi use doors like that. 
Sweet 
yeah you guys were right, it was just the spaces in the texture names. Awesome now I can finish these maps. Yay! Now here's the situation I'm in. I'm using the Nexiuz textures, the originals are 2x the size of the recent Q1 conversion ones, so I want to keep with the originals since otherwise my texturing will be messed up everywhere. I guess my question is, what would be the best way to replace the spaces in the names of the textures in the original wads with _'s, or, is there a Nexiuz texture wad available for Quake with all the textures in the original sizes? 
 
just run them through irfanview to shrink them, it's free :) 
Search/replace 
Wordpad. Or, if the map file is too large for it, a text editor like Notepad++ for example. 
All Your Bases Are Belong To Notepad++ 
 
Alright 
fixed the texture names, now I just need to convert (some of) the original nexiuz textures to the Q1 palette in their original sizes. What's the best program to do this? 
Or 
if anyone wants to do me the favour of converting these textures you'll be rewarded with a couple new Q1SPs, heh. 
Texture Conversion Tool 
TY 
now go invent some other weird creepy sneaky Q1SP stuff :) 
Weird Question 
what is the formula to calculate the maximum distance a sound can be heard?

i don't think volume plays any part in it, just attenuation.

i have some looping sounds that may start when the player is beyond hearing range. if this happens, the engine doesn't register the sound as playing so i need to continuously check if the player is entering hearing range, but the check is done on multiple types of entities with different attenuation values, so i can't just use a flat range. 
You're 
On a higher level than me. But from that question my advice would be change engine. 
 
ask LordHavoc, Spike, mh or metlslime?

The problem where Quake stops playing sounds when the player is out of range (and continues them weirdly when he returns), is, er, a problem. 
 
whoah, we made a good show here. 
 
what is the formula to calculate the maximum distance a sound can be heard?

I never figured this out, in the end i just experimented with different distances until i found one that seemed right. 
 
i asked on inside3d, so we'll see. :)

i just experimented with different distances

i would do that if it was only one sound, but i will have multiple sounds at multiple attenuations, and it would be unlikely that i could guesstimate all differences accurately. 
Sound Thinking 
We can pick atten to lie between 0 and 4. The engine now defines:

nom_atten = atten / 1000

dist = nom_atten * length(sound.origin - player.origin);

So the crucial thing here is to notice how the attenuation affects the distance.
Attenuation 2 samples are effectively twice as far away as attenuation 1 sounds.
Attenuation 0 sounds are always treated as distance 0 away.

The next thing you need to know is that the volume is multiplied by
( 1 - dist) * rscale in the right ear and (1 - dist) * lscale in the left ear.

rscale is equal to 1 + v_right*normalise(sound.origin - player.origin)
lscale is equal to 1 - v_right*normalise(sound.origin - player.origin)

Don't worry too much about what rscale and lscale mean, just be aware that they are never negative and sum to 2.

We need to compute when both the left and right ear go to zero volume, as in that case the sound is not played.
We know that lscale and rscale are never both equal to 0. So the only case we need to think about is

1 - dist <= 0

this implies that
dist >= 1
so
nom_atten * length(sound.origin - player.origin) >= 1

atten * length(sound.origin - player.origin) >= 1000

It is best to keep the inequality in this form, so that you don't have to worry about dividing by 0 if either the attenuation or the length go to zero.

In real terms, this means a sound with attenuation 1 is audible 1000 units away, attenuation 2 is 500 units away, etc. 
You Are A Quake Hero 
 
 
Quake God as Sub-Nigurath 
Sounds Like 
If you are going to run this function very frequently, then you might consider it a candidate for optimisation. As it happens, this inequality is ripe for one of my favourite optimisation tricks. It hinges on the idea that calculating the square root of a number is expensive compared to regular operations such as addition and multiplication.

The length of a 3d vector is calculated as

sqrt(x*x + y*y + z*z)

What we notice is that if a and b are > 0 then

a*a >= b*b is equivalent to a >= b

so we can rewrite our inequality from earlier as:

atten * atten * length * length >= 1000*1000

But we have multiplied length by itself, which reverses the sqrt involved in the calculation of length, and takes us back to the value before that step.

So we can replace that with

atten * atten * (x*x + y*y + z*z) >= 1000000

If we were writing this straight in C, there would be no doubt that this method is faster, it replaces one call to sqrt with a single multiplication. In QC, it's a bit harder to decide if it's beneficial, because vlen would have done the multiplication in the brackets for us, which is a little cheaper than doing it ourselves in QC.

In effect, we have replaced the function call to the builtin vlen with four multiplcations and two additions. It's worth noting that a function call has quite a bit of overhead too, so it's likely that we're a way ahead in doing this. If I'm really honest, this is more of an "inner loop in critical c++ rendering code" optimisation, but it's cute to look at. 
Thanks Again 
very simple when it's all laid out like that, and a nice trick for optimizing vlen calculations. ^_^

(as it turns out, i have other parts in my mod that require frequent vlen calls as well) 
Just Replied On I3D But Hey! Here Too... 
That value of 1000 *may* have been 1500 in an earlier version of Quake. This is based on a comment I saw in somebody's source maybe 6 years ago; can't remember where or who now.

I've no reason to either doubt or believe it, but I've switched to 1500 myself (in fact I've turned it into a cvar) as I like the extra ambience that it generates in a map. 
 
now that i know a little more about it, i found this line in snd_dma.c for fq085:
vec_t sound_nominal_clip_dist=1000.0;
so it looks like id brought it back down to 1000 unless metl did that, but there's no comment there about it. :) 
So 
Iris doors involve maths. Hypotenuese etc.

I got lazy and used a prefab - the lip is difficult to work out. 
Your Prefab Madfox, Thanks. 
 
Ijed: 
that's the problem, yes.

the alternative is to set the movedir directly in the map file, but that requires a quakec change (since as written, a func_door always calls SetMovedir() which clobbers any movedir you set in the map file.) 
They 
Can't be vertical either. I did consider adding a flag to doors, but it seems a bit overkill.

I already have a func_door_model, so maybe that's the cleaner solution. 
Iikka's Ikspq3 Iris Doors 
He uses a lip of 49 and -49 equally on the
8 doors. Maybe the bounding box of each of
his doors are the same size to get that lip.

Otherwise its movement seems perfect, without
gaps. 
Madfox' 
Example has a total of four different lip values with the opposite pieces moving on the same axis being the same.

None of the values are negative either.

A .mdl solution is a maybe, but not ideal since I'll have to fake the collision. An external bsp could either prove impossible or the solution to everything... 
 
Yea, it's just those 4 doors that move at 45 degree angles that have a lip thats hard to get right. Maybe Iikka's brush model at the corners (45 degree) have multiple brushes to change its bounding box, thus making it easier to figuring out the lip. 
Ijed: 
if you modify the qc to set the movedir yourself, you can make vertical iris doors too. 
Good Point 
And I do have a place for a vertical one that would be very cool since the player is thrown through it as it opens by a trigger_push into a large section of pipe beyond.

Will have to think about this. 
Like A Diafragma... 
The prefab of the irisdoor was a rather strange collector item as I couldn't find it in the Qoole prefab directory.

I saw it once in 2004, when the Qoole side still excisted. I couldn't find it as it was in qml format. When I finally found it I realized all the lip sizes were in it, and I even understood less from what I saw.
Glad I could find it in my dusty archive.

I tried a vertical irisdoor with func_trains,
but it really gave me the creep. 
Hm 
func_train works in theory. Would be a lot of pissing about on a very small grid though. 
Path_Corners 
I am having trouble with my Ogres.

Going upstairs he is OK but when he returns, he seems to get stuck and twizzles around on one or two of the steps. He looks like he is searching for the way down but never finds it. Other monsters, such as knights and hell knights, are fine and follow the same path_corners without any trouble.

Is this a bounding box issue and do I need to allow more room on one side going in one direction?

For instance, I seem to remember that in the xy view, the lower left hand corner of the path_corner is significant. But could there be relevance to the direction of travel so that I should allow more room on one side in one direction but more room on the other side in the opposite direction?

There is only one monster on this path and no other monsters can cross the path, or otherwise get in the way of the ogre. 
 
Well, Hell Knights have the same bounding box as the Ogre so I'm not sure what could be going on... 
Well 
id1 Ogres as the same size as a Shambler, so if there's a bottleneck smaller than 64 units they can get stuck. 
 
If you use your own progs, you can simply give ogres the smaller bounding box. 
Willem 
No they don't. Hell knights use the smaller box, ogres use the larger box.

If the ogre is going up fine, but not down, then you need to raise the ceiling by the height of the step. If it still doesn't work, then keep increasing the ceiling height. But 1 or 1.5 x height of step should be enough.

For gb's suggestion to work, you would need to make them use the smaller box. And yes, they do completely fit inside it. 
 
in order for a monster to take a step, it has to have it's 4 corners of it's bbox 'on ground'. the monster is allowed some leeway, but if the steps are too short, it would have to 'skip a step' which makes the vertical distance too far down.

essentially, the big monsters need bigger steps. :P 
Lardarse 
obviously, without seeing the map, i can't be sure, but i don't think it's a ceiling issue.

the check when walking up a step is different from when walking down.

it is allowed to step up more than it is allowed to step down. 
 
Aaah yes, I think you might be onto something.

When stepping up, the front corner(s) need to be moving into something, and have a place to stand that is less than maxstepheight (there is a cvar for this, default is 18).

When stepping down, however, it's something like the middle of the box needs to be above a point that is no more than maxstepheight away, while the back corners are still on the top step.

This suggests that the only thing that will work, is either a smaller bounding box, or wider/shallower stairs. 
 
"in order for a monster to take a step, it has to have it's 4 corners of it's bbox 'on ground'. the monster is allowed some leeway, but if the steps are too short, it would have to 'skip a step' which makes the vertical distance too far down.

essentially, the big monsters need bigger steps. :P"

Are you sure? Ogres can navigate standard sized stairs in most maps that I've made. I've never had a situation where I needed to make stairs deeper to accommodate the bigger bounding box ... or maybe I've been doing it just automatically and not running into this. I dunno! 
Upstairs, Downstairs And In My Lady's Chamber 
So I guess that I'll stop trying to get the ogre to walk down the spiral(!) staircase then.

Mind you, he looks quite funny when he is twizzling on a couple of stairs (he sort of dances between them) and I may leave him there just to give the player a laugh before he blasts the ogre's head of with both barrels.

Thanks for your help everyone. 
Spiral Stairs? 
That clears it up :) 
 
spiral, yeah. monsters have even more trouble navigating down stairs that are at an angle. even if all the steps are 45 degrees.

remember that bboxes don't rotate, so when the square bbox hits, say, a 45 degree angle, his leading corner will be even further out than usual (owing that it's a diagonal relative to the 45 degree step). you need to make your steps even bigger in that case.

note that if your steps are in an L shape, they can have trouble on the corners of the steps as well.

willem: now that we know that the map has spiral stairs, it's probably more owing to the non-right angled stairs, but you can see this for yourself by building a stair that is 16 units high and 16 units long. small bbox monsters should still be able to use it, but large bbox monsters will treat it like a ledge. 
Closing The Loop... 
http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/287/fitz0017.jpg
http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/3716/fitz0018.jpg

"He was twizzlin' away, 'till the closing of day, and singing a smoke-twizzlin' song. There was an aeroplane circlin' but he didn't notice at first, 'cause it was so cunningly disguised as a dragon." 
 
trigger_monsterjump (or whatever it's called)

SOLVED! 
Alternative 
Make a pillar so the steps closest to the internal bit of the U aren't so short - the outer width of the steps looks fine for even fatboy to walk down them.

Alternative2:
http://www.mobility-superstore.com/stairlifts/

Might be tricky setting up the func_trains though. 
Ijed 
That's just what I need, never mind the Ogres! 
You Have 
A large bounding box? 
Large Bounding Box? 
...oh yes, my box bounds large.

I got round the 'problem' with my ogre by setting the path_corners right next to the right hand side of the stairs where the tread is widest. He goes up and down with a slight twizzle on one step. The downside is that he does not appear to walk on the stairs, he looks as though he is floating above them.

But at least in gives that degree of randomness associated with wandering monsters.

Onwards and upwards, as they say... 
Hahah 
Anyway - I didn't think of the path_corners - you can already tell him where he supposed to be.

Looking forward to it, always liked shallots. 
Some Simillar Path Corner & Ogres. 
How come the Ogre stops, when there's a 16 or 32 gap on its pathway?
I tried the OldOgre , but he always stops as soon here's a 16 unit gap.
I even tried a clipbrush of 8 units.
To make the screenshot I had to force the Ogre on the midle of the path.

http://members.home.nl/gimli/OldOgre.jpg 
Madfox: 
monsters use the visible geometry (hull 0) to do pathfinding checks. So even if the collision hull (hull 1 or 2, depending on the monster) is flat and continuous, the monster will stop if there is a visual gap. (visual gaps that are 16 or less units deep are okay because they are treated as a step down.)

So, clip brushes won't help because they are not included in hull 0.

Func_wall with a skip texture might work, through. 
Thanks 
I wondered why I couldn't let him walk the hallway, while in the old screenshots it does. 
That's Cool 
like a viking ogre or something :) 
 
hehe weardo :) but look sweet!

Ogres and Vores are my favorit monsters of Quake!!!

Awesome to dance with! 
OldOgre FTW 
 
Monster_count 
I made him a new shield.
Now my God help me with the shielding code!

Something else... I'm so far I have made a level finished. Now I'm troubled with the wrong outcome of monster-count.
I have 168 monsters, the end count is 150.
I deleted the swimmonster_start ,which is double coded in the rotten_fish code.

Where can I trace this error? 
Madfox 
We have at least two coders on the team, you know? Why not ask them?

Just thinkin'. 
Madfox: 
if you have 18 fish, perhaps they are not counted. Maybe your fix for swimmonster_start is incorrect. 
I'm Not Codeproof 
@gb - you're right.

@metlslime- I assumed in the FISH.QC the part of the swimmonster_start is used twice.
First after the frame count, and later at the last line.
So I deleted the ones after the frame count.
And indeed, I used 18 fishes. 
 
well, that is correct, there is originally a total_monsters = total_monsters + 1; //the fish bug in both swimmonster_start and swimmonster_start_go. if you deleted one, that should fix the problem, so maybe you accidentally deleted both? 
Incidentally 
there's a lot of redundant crap in all three of the XXXXmonster_start and _start_go functions.

these days, i like to make a function for setting up the XXXXmonster_start stuff, and then another one to set up walk targets in XXXXmonster_start_go.

this makes adding in new stuff really easy, cause you can just dump it into those functions.

probably most people do that already, but i thought it'd good to mention it in case. :) 
V101QC 
FISH.QC
line 21: void()swimmonster_start; (I deleted)
line184: swimmonster_start ();

Maybe I should turn it back in.
Can't remember where this hack was about. 
 
monsters.qc 
MONSTER.QC 
line 185:void() swimmonster_start_go =
line 229:void() swimmonster_start =

I added the line 21 in the fish.qc but I'm left with 18 monsters untraced.

Which line in monster.qc is the cause? 
 
void()swimmonster_start; is a prototype, deleting that would probably just give you a compile error somewhere else. 
This Might Be It For The Fish Count ? 
You might already know this, add the " // "into monster.qc as shown below. You'll still have a duplicate line (not commented out) near the end in monster.qc



void() swimmonster_start_go =
{
if (deathmatch)
{
remove(self);
return;
}

self.takedamage = DAMAGE_AIM;
// total_monsters = total_monsters + 1; 
Hammer Users... 
Is there a way to turn off the face shading that Hammer does in the 3D viewport? It's OK in most cases but it's kinda dark in a few directions. I don't see anything in the options screen... 
 
So, "no" I guess. "setgamma" ahoy! 
OK, Wtf Hammer? 
Do any of you Worldcraft/Hammer guys have any insight into this problem?

I find that tweaking entities is a maddening experience because I have to fight with Hammer to get it to write out changes to entity key/values. It just flat out doesn't do it half the time. I've taken to opening the MAP file in a text editor and verifying that the value I edited has written out correctly before bothering to compile.

I can't find the pattern. If I knew that a specific series of clicks would make it work reliably that would be one thing but I'm coming up empty.

Has anyone else experienced this? For example, I'm tweaking the "height" value for a func_plat and it seems to write my changes out randomly - sometimes will, sometimes won't.

Help? 
I've Had That.. 
..very occasionally with WC1.6. always thought it would have been so much nicer to have an 'ok' button when entering entity values, as sometimes like you say it just doesn't properly read it.

that said, it wasn't as common a problem as what you are enduring by the sounds of it.. and i think it only ever happened when multiple entities were being updated at once. i found after a while that just clicking off and back on to an entity would confirm if it had been read properly 
Willem 
shut the fuck up,........ 
 
spy

I didn't send you email again. Did you not receive it still? 
 
calm down ladies... so much stress?

what about when u guys will have ti kids+wife+work?

suicide? 
Yeah 
Take anti-aggression advice from Trinca. 
/\ 
 
Gtkradiant 
Where should someone put their Quake textures in Gtkradiant 1.5 if they wanted to make quake maps? 
In The Id1 Folder 
 
Gtkradiant 
I have textures here: F:\quake\id1\textures\ik2k
and here:F:\Program Files\GtkRadiant 1.5.0\q1.game\id1\ik2k

Still, I see no textures. 
 
Texture .wad files go in id1. I don't know where individual images go, or if that even works.

quake/id1/texture.wad 
Lighting Models.. 
i remember not too long ago, someone explained how models are lit in-game depending on their position & what not. can't remember the exact discussion!

i'm having some problems with crucified zombies.. here are two of them facing opposite directions at each end of the hall, same lighting:

http://isoterra.co.uk/quake/e2m6rq/zombie1.jpg
http://isoterra.co.uk/quake/e2m6rq/zombie2.jpg

one is barely visible, the other is far too bright (facing west & east respectively)

facing north & south they seem fine, again with similar surrounding light levels:

http://isoterra.co.uk/quake/e2m6rq/zombie3.jpg

how does it work again? is there a fix? :d 
Thanks. 
Yeah I had this idea that the textures had to be unpacked as individual image files before gtkradiant would see them. 
Rj: 
is that fitzquake? Do you have the same problem in any other engines? (meaning, is fitzquake behaving differently?)

I've begun to suspect there is a problem with the way fitzquake interpolates light values, which results in stationary models getting lighting that may be different from the standard quake clients. 
Good Point.. 
yeah it is. the quakespasm sdl port. i'll try it with glquakebjp when i get home 
 
metlslime join this in to do list ;)and don't forget .jpg screenshot suport 
Okay.. 
so it's not fitzquake. same problem on the aforementioned :/ 
 
What happens if you move the zombie slightly, or if you delete and reinsert (c/p) the brushes beneath him? 
Rj: 
Is the origin of the zombie directly above a single brush? Or is it above the edge between two brushes? Might be that it's randomly choosing one of the two brushes. 
Rj 
check the angles on the lights again ;) 
Well There Are No Light Angles... 
origin is directly above the edge of the little wizmet brush

tried moving the zombies slightly. bizarrely, moving the east-facing one (the bright one) 2 units back into the wall fixed it; it now lights the same as the ones in shot 3. at the other end however, moving it 2 units into the wall makes no difference and moving it 2 units out makes it fullbright. no joy re-adding the brushes either.. 
How Far? 
The code says 12 units into the wall for a horizontal/verical wall. On a 1:1 diagonal wall, this should be reduced to 8 units.

Assuming that doesn't help, I have no idea... 
What's On The Other Side? 
I haven't looked at the lighting code for a while, so this is just a theory. With the zombies set back into the wall, might it be possible that surfaces on the other (back) side of the wall are contributing to the lighting? 
 
yeah, i wanted to ask: is the map sealed or is there some geometry behind the wall with the zombie?
i think i remember a case where it happened in an unsealed map, and when it was sealed and the outside faces culled, the problem went away. 
 
i wanted to ask: is the map sealed or is there some geometry behind the wall with the zombie?
i think i remember a case where it happened in an unsealed map, and when it was sealed and the outside faces culled, the problem went away


well, it was unsealed and that wall backed out into the void.

so i tried doing a full compile of the whole map, which is sealed in its entirety, so i could test your theory.

i then went to the area and noclipped up to inspect... and only THEN remembered that in my fed up frustration the other night i ended up ditching the zombie altogether and replacing him with a hanging flag ;/

= dunce ;/ 
 
i hope you don't mind, but i had a good chuckle at your expense. that sort of thing happens to me all too often. ^_^ 
Mapstructure Versus Info_notnull 
I'm on the end of my map and I'm trying to get it realvised.

After the -th version I keep this error of some brushes that keep disapearing in some views. I tried everything to get it right, force to grid, reshaping but the error remains.

As I look at the mapstructure the brushes are changed from MapStructure to info_notnull.
I haven't given them these option, it just occured.

Could it be the root of this malviewing? 
Madfox 
needs Hammer ;) 
Out Of Nails 
I thought it was mapping help..,
let's have another editor. 
Mapping 
I use the BSP editor, and I have to be careful and always use the Esc Key on my keyboard to de-select brushes before selecting brushes for an entity. If not, some selected brushes (not in my view) could get an entity applied that I didn't want.

I don't think you want to force to grid all your brushes after you draw them or clip them. First select the grid you want, like 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, units etc, and draw your brushes to that brush(grid) resolution, or clip to that unit resolution.

Brush entities that disappear while viewing at different angles may be due to being built partially out of your level. Large multiple brush entities that span a level could do the same. Giant sized multiple brush entities can be made though, that don't disappear. 
 
work with grid 1 for what?

force to grid? :\

This is the kind of tools "not to be used" 
I Try Not To Go Any Smaller 
than a 16x16 grid. It happens sometimes, but usually I keep the grid that size or bigger. And yes - as I am dragging out my new brushes they are snapping to the grid.
Also selecting another brush in WC will always de-select any other brushes unless you are holding the shift or control key.
Also WC has the ability to send any brush entities back to being normal brushes. Just select the entity and click on a button "to world". 
 
Yup, I usually use grid 16 and higher, but for clipping I sometimes go down to 1 and 2 units when making something over 50 faces.

Forcing to grid, not sure how that works, but if a grid is changed is the brush going to adjust to the new grid when selected? That might explain things.

And, my previous editor also de-selected as a new brush was selected. BSP is opposite and hard to get used to, but I'm managing. That's the main reason, I think, that people hate changing editors. Unlearn'id what they learned! 
Force To Grid 
I have this cave with sidebrushes of triangular shapes to make a terrain shape.
Some brushes fit well, others don't.
The ones that won't fit I force to grid on 1 unit grid. As the center of the brush is placed back to integers the outside can change.

The only way to avoid hom's of the sidebrushes was to change them all into func_wall.
Problem solved, signon calling to minimize the func_entities. 
 
what light and vis command you guys use?

mine:

e:\Quake I\quark\QTools\Vis.exe -level 4 -priority 0

e:\Quake I\quark\QTools\Light.exe -extra4 -gate 1 -addmin -range 0.45 -dist 0.8 
Wow 
what light and vis command you guys use?

mine:

e:\Quake I\quark\QTools\Vis.exe -level 4 -priority 0

e:\Quake I\quark\QTools\Light.exe -extra4 -gate 1 -addmin -range 0.45 -dist 0.8
 
 
Gotta try those commands out some time, I still just use -level 4 and -extra. I'm new to Agguire's tools. Been using something like "delay" "2" and "wait" "1" on lights, and stuff looks alot better.

Madfox, if you make all your brushes with the grid at 16, and move edges and points around to make terrain, everything should match-up at the 16 unit grid. No need to move something 1 unit. Also, if every brush is made and clipped on the grid ( grid from 1 to 128 units and larger), all brushes should be integer.

I played lots of your levels and can see brush points less than 1 unit, though. So, it's just something you need to setup properly in your editor. Trinca will write you a tutorial! 
Wait 1 
..is the default behaviour just so you know. wait 0.5 makes the light cover twice the radius without increasing the brightness level, wait 2 halves it, and so on. so if you have a high light value with a high wait, it will create a small bright spot, whilst low brightness & low wait will dimly light a wide area.

although i confess i only use -soft out of those compile options, and -extra4 on the final compile. need to look into them a little more... 
 
roblot whould be a cool stuff... me making a tutorial... my English rockzzz :\

will be a peace of crap :p 
Grid 1 
I use grid 1 quite often for details - building complicated door shapes to exactly match the texture, making buttons that exactly line up with the cutout in the texture. That sort of stuff.

I regularly use grid 2 when making ladders or handrails.

No problems, rarely get any error messages.

Radiant's Translate tool makes sure it all stays on grid. 
Thanks 
Didn't know that "wait" "1", I just copy other peoples stuff alot. Trinca you really should send out editor setup info or something. I think it would help. Some people speak other languages, so reading english makes mapping twice as hard. If I had to learn another language, like British or something, I'd never know what I was doing. 
Grid 
vis -level4
light -dist 0.7 -range 0.7 -light 15 -extra -soft
ingame light wait 0.3

terrain maps.
I know it sounds weird, but I tried to make a triangular brush that fits exact on the 16 grid.
Normal triangel brushes always go off grid. So I placed the boundary on the 16 point grid and keep hashling the corners untill they fit on the gridpoint.
After forcing this brush to grid I used copies of it to make a large flat surface. Then I raised all the triangles and made them sloping.
By doing so, the centre of the brush gets offgrid again what results in these coarsed lines.
Then it tends to the compiler to show what's the outcome. Sometimes they match fine, sometimes it needs new forcing to grid.

I know this sound rather strange, but I was curious when I saw the original triangular brushes, with their angles of grid.
With good use of light it can be minimized.
That's in Quark6.5 alpha. 
 
Maybe try this.
1. First set grid. Brushes placed should snap to this grid setting when adjusted.
2. Place all the square or rectangle brushes you need. Oh yea, turn off texture lock!
3. Make the triangles you need out of the squares and rectangles, or slope the square and rectangle brushes as needed.

If the editor does this wrong, then it's giving you a hard time. The BSP editor does much more complex copy, paste, merge, and rotate of multiple brushes really well. 
 
Oh yea, turn off texture lock!

Has MadFox ever turned on texture lock? 
I Say It's On 
But only Madfox knows fur sure. It's funny, I downloaded Travail (great stuff)over a year ago and still have 2 levels to go. I downloaded Abandon (witchcraft was best)just about 2 weeks ago and finished it, only missing 1 secret level. Go figure? 
 
But only Madfox knows fur sure. It's funny, I downloaded Travail (great stuff)over a year ago and still have 2 levels to go. I downloaded Abandon (witchcraft was best)just about 2 weeks ago and finished it, only missing 1 secret level. Go figure?
you like an abandon better? :rofl: 
Is It A Quark Option? 
I thought it no question as I found no texturelock in Quark6.5
(I might be wrong?).

Also there is no compromise between the two mods, as the first is a project of compagnionship and the other a one man thing.

@roblot- here's a figure. It's a sideway underwater in amount/r2b2.
http://members.home.nl/gimli/amount.jpg
There are a few demo's on modBcom :
http://www.moddb.com/mods/abandon 
Nehahra Too... 
Gotta play some more of it sometime also. Must be gaming mood or something. But Travail is much better, and is almost as good as what I'm doing... Ha!

If texture-lock is on and you copy the brush just above the tunnel, then move it to the right, you'll have mis-matched texture tiling as seen in photo(unless that seem falls on the 128 grid). With texture-lock off, your terrain will tile seemless. Unless you want a staggard tile look for a reason.

I know almost nothing about Quark but you say you got alfa? At Quaddicted I've seen beta4 or something. Also, you might have multiple installs of Quark or upgrades that conflict in the configs of the programs? Try complete uninstall, including registry items in Windows(HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE - SOFTWARE folder), maybe. 
What's Better ? 
when you make a room out of a cube, to make it hollow outwards (-) or inwards (+) ?
I would think outwards would be better because the inside of your cube would be lined to the grid. (?) 
Repent Sinner, Repent !! 
Never use hollow maker: this is blasphemy !!! 
Why Not ? 
Really, I've always used it ... 
When You Build A Box.. 
..with the amount of clipping you then have to do to 'open it up', you're probably no better off than had you laid it down brush by brush

i only use hollow for misc entity boxes out in the void (teleporting monsters, spikeshooters etc) 
There Are Good Reasons.... 
... not to use Hollow makers: check #1461 and after.... since this time I never used again Hollow maker, believe me: it is safer !!!

Blasphemy !! Heresy !! You'll all burn in Hell !! 
 
Guys, he said he was hollowing out a cube. If you're using an editor that can't successfully hollow out an axis aligned cube, it's time to find a new editor. 
 
Guys, he said he was hollowing out a cube. If you're using an editor that can't successfully hollow out an axis aligned cube, it's time to find a new editor.

i'm not sure how you deduced that from what i wrote?

ron: to answer your question, if you hollow inwards (at least in WC) it should still align to the grid as it goes by the thickness of the walls, so it makes little difference. but it's generally better practice to construct rooms brush-by-brush in most cases, partly because it gives you more control but mainly because it helps discourage the old boxroom-corridor-boxroom syndrome :P ..although it is still useful for throwing testmaps together and the likes 
 
I don't see how you figured I was replying specifically to you. 
 
because it was only JPL and me who responded to the question, and 'guys' clearly indicates a plural? 
Rj 
...it's generally better practice to construct rooms brush-by-brush in most cases, partly because it gives you more control but mainly because it helps discourage the old boxroom-corridor-boxroom syndrome :P

I fully concur with you ! Thqt is exactely the point... hats-off... 
Rj 
Willem would have sent you a mail if the reply was for you only. Don't be so selfish and egocentric.


Ok, enough. :-P 
 
"because it was only JPL and me who responded to the question, and 'guys' clearly indicates a plural?"

FFS. 
Mindless Pedantry Or A Point To Be Taken? 
you decide. 
But Back On The Subject Of Mapping Help.. 
..does anyone have any insight into why all switchable lights would fail when compiling a full map? they work fine when compiling each section individually (it's split into about 6-7 'areas' in the form of visgroups) but can only display at full brightness when the whole thing is done, whether the 'start off' spawnflag is on or off. no errors in the light log or anything..

it's a bit of a limitbusting map if that counts for anything, breaks just about all of them... 
 
have you checked if you're getting any 'too many lightstyles' errors?

also, i've accidentally ticked the 'not in xskill' box on a light and not have it toggle because it wasn't present in that particular skill level.

if it's 'limit busting', it's possible you have run out of lightstyles.

you get 64 total light styles, the first 10 (not including 0) are for flickering lights, and the compilers only assign 32-64 (or 32-63?). so in actuality, you only get 32 light styles; 32 seperate switchable lights. i'm not sure if light.exe will collapse multiple lights with the same targetname into the same lightstyle or not, although it should otherwise even stock quake maps would have 'too many lightstyles' errors. 
Hollow 
Some editors will, when "hollow" is used on a cube to create a square room, make a nice square room of six brushes...but the brushes will all still stretch to the extents of the original cube, and will overlap.

Will a decent compiler usually clean this up and toss out the overlapping bits? Yes, usually, but it will still be messy in the editor, and potentially confusing.

Nothing wrong with hollow as long as you do any necessary clean up the result afterward. 
 
"on" the result, rather... 
Thanks For All The Replies 
What I usually do (in Worldcraft) is
- make a cube the size of your room to be.
- make it hollow outwards
- ungroup the thing,so your left with 6 brushes
- copy and paste (special, to same location) a brush 4 times and then shape them to fit a door in, 1 for the door, 1 for the left of the door, and for the right and one for above the door.

It does work that way.
I don't know if it's smart or handy though.
The thing with mapping is that you basically have to learn how to do it yourself.
The tutorials only show you the basics.
I still find it very difficult to find efficient ways to achieve things.
That's why I love this website ... ;) 
Hey... 
You know that combat music in Star Trek when Captain Kirk is battling a Klingon in the arena (with pick axe, spear, and shovel), well that music was playing in my head a few posts up.

I was thinking, HollowMaker sounds like an excellent stand-alone program that could work this way. First you make a cube in any of the editors available. Next, export the cube. Now, import the cube into HollowMaker. It has just 1 button, Hollow_out ! Now export and import into your favorite map editor. Voila ! So easy, and you'll want to do it over and over again.

I feel so hollow... Hey wait! HollowMaker hollowed out my brain.

Where is it?

It's in Quark? But I use BSP...

Spock, help get my brain back!
...my next map title... 
Sounds Like You Need UEd 
 
 
have you checked if you're getting any 'too many lightstyles' errors?

hrm, i compiled again to check, and this time it worked okay.. bizarre.

it is something where just because it works correctly one time it doesn't mean it will work all the time? or can i assume that it either compiled correctly or it didn't? 
 
did you run a -onlyents? remember to run a -onlyents on both bsp and (aguire's) light to reconnect lightstyles with the entities.
-onlyents on bsp breaks that connection (probably cause it can change the order of entities). 
Ahh 
that would be the problem :)

didn't realise there was an onlyents light option.. thanks. will have to add it to your compiler gui 8) 
 
cool, glad it's been useful! ^_^ 
Quake Sounds And Sample Rate... 
what's the deal with quake sounds?

I thought they had to be 11kHz 8bit mono, but i just made a 44kHz 16bit mono sound and it loaded in both fitzquake and winquake... so is that okay? Is dosquake the only quake that needs 11kHz 8bit sounds? 
 
The beta or qtest used 44khz so I think it was a size or performance decision. 
 
Your 44kHz sound will still be downsampled to 11kHz, though, unless you set -sndspeed 44100 in the commandline (which doesn't work in Fitz085 as far as I can tell). 
 
11kHz .wav files are much smaller, so yeah, that will have been the reason. Considering the download speeds of the mid-Nineties, small sound files = good sound files.

Decent engines support -sndspeed 44100, I'm pretty sure it works with FitzSDL / Quakespasm. Under Linux and for me at least.

Still, -sndspeed 44100 will not magically restore Quake's sounds to their original quality. Once downsampled, those ones and zeroes are gone forever.

All that -sndspeed 44100 does is play 44.1kHz .wav files at the correct quality. 11kHz files will be nominally upsampled for playback, but the lost information remains lost. As with dried fruit - you can't magically restore them by putting in water.

id ruined Quake's sounds to save space, which is understandable for the shareware part (download size), but idiotic when you have CDs (and the soundtrack is 44.1kHz anyway).

Also, yes, it is OK. Dunno about Dosquake, but I'd be willing to bet it is OK with that as well.

And just a notice: Mappers and modders who provide 11kHz sounds along with their products are shooting themselves in the foot. There is no benefit to that, only drawbacks.

If you provide 11 kHz 8 bit sounds with your map, and someone plays your (Quoth or otherwise) map under RemakeQuake with -sndspeed 44100, the quality of your sounds will be comparatively (and noticeably) bad, at least if the player has good ears and is wearing headphones. In short, 11kHz sounds are pretty dated and will become obsolete in the future, maybe not with RemakeQuake, but eventually it's inevitable.

Whereas when you don't downsample them, they'll be converted automatically at runtime and fit right in with Quoth etc. 11kHz sounds, so there is no problem at all AND your sounds are future proof. 
Spirit 
> The beta or qtest used 44khz

I think I checked all of those distributions and TMK that was not the case.

If you have a version of id Quake with 44.1kHz sounds, I would like to see (or rather, hear) it. 
 
i always downsample my stuff to 11khz 16bit and 8bit if the sound has constant volume. if you leave the built in downsampler do the job itself, it does it on a similar level as the image resizer in glquake. (sucks) 
 
 
I'm surprised how well some sounds and music can be at 11 khz 16 bit. Currently, I'm mixing everything at 44 khz 16 bit stereo, then make a final downsample copy at 22 khz 16 bit mono for glquake. Lower recording levels keep sound quality at par between the different sample rates. I'd say choose 11 khz 16 bit over 22 khz 8 bit though, 16 bit is more important. 
 
8 bit is really grotty.

I also think that the downsampling is done by the sound card, and hence the quality of that might play a role, but I don't know for sure.

I don't see the small loss by downsampling in realtime from 44 -> 11 kHz as a problem, considering the abysmal quality that comes with 11kHz anyway.

The result of downsampling *always* sucks. 
Spirit 
Ah OK, thanks. But I'm pretty sure I looked at all of the QTest sounds and almost none of them are 44kHz - a fair bit are 22kHz though. 
 
The result of downsampling *always* sucks.

I figure you'd better make sure your sounds are still acceptable when downsampled. For example if your sound is primarily high-pitched, it will be destroyed by 11kHz downsampling, and you should probably come up with a different sound. If it's mostly low with the high pitch adding just a crisper overall sound, then the people playing with 11kHz mixing will at least hear something appropriate. 
Well 
this are basically DSP (Digital Signal Processing) theory: you can over-sample, nor down-sample a signal without interpolation filtering..
For down-sampling it is straight forward as soon as the new sampling rate is a multliple of the original sampling rate (e.g x1/2). Additionally, it is obvious that human ear dynamic range has to be taken into account (that is in [20Hz:20kHz] range)... So sampling a signal @11kHz is quite crappy except if you are almost deaf, at 22kHz it can be acceptable if there are not that much high frequency (i.e above 11kHz)... and 44kHz is the best..
Furthermore, remind that each individual has its own ear dynamic that vary a lot with age: a children has a higher dynamic range than an gran'ma generally...
Anyway, there are no better method than never down-sample a sound under 22kHz if you want an good (or acceptable) sound quality... and also a good soundcard ;) 
Light Question Again.. 
how crucial is the 'too many lightstyles on a face' warning? will it crash old engines or just cause stuff to not light properly?

4 is an annoyingly low limit 
Too Many Lightstyle.... 
Extract from aguirRe's tool tips: http://user.tninet.se/~xir870k/tooltips.txt

"Too many light styles on a face, lightmap point near (x y z), tex, light->origin (x y z)"
Too many styled (torches, flickering etc) lights in the specified area. Reduce # styled lights or their range in that area. You can also try option "-gate #" to limit the range of
attenuated lights.


Actually the limit depends of your light tool, but as explained above it can be easily solved by reducing the number of lightstyle on a face... maybe you should contact aguirRe and ask his advices... and if you are lucky, he could do you a favor by sorting out a new light tool with increased limit regarding lightstyle... who knows ;) 
 
i don't think it's just a tool limitation or aguirre would have pumped it up higher.

what will happen is that the light on those faces from the extra lightstyles just won't be shwon. this can lead to hard edges between lights.

aguirre's light is better than most and will try to discard the least visible one or prefering to use the minlight/sunlight before anything else.

still, it's something that you should try to avoid.

as for old engines, the problem will look the same as in new engines (unless it's an engine with real time lights of course). 
 
cheers jpl but it is kinda obvious what it means & how to prevent it ;p just wanted to know what the negative impact on the map was.

what will happen is that the light on those faces from the extra lightstyles just won't be shwon. this can lead to hard edges between lights.

i see.. i usually get it when attenuated lights spill over into the next room and i don't think the effect has ever been noticeable. excessive compile warnings are never nice but until now that's been the only reason i've tried to avoid it.. 
 
Dumb question but where are those orange textures that I see people shelling L4D and HL2 maps with? Which WAD? 
 
rj: yeah, like you'll never notice it if the overlapping areas have only a small amount of light shining on it, but try placing several bright switchable lights like 128 units apart and you'll definitely see it. sometimes it can be ignored, and sometimes not. :S 
Rj 
Negative effect in map is also straightforward: bad lightning on a face can simply gives somes weird shadow effects, making the lightning completely unrealistic... 
..or Not, In My Case 
the effect wasn't visible so it seemed like it could have been a false warning that possibly only applied to old engines and/or may have caused problems loading the map in some setups...

i know now that isn't the case, however that was not as obvious as suggesting that a 'too many lightstyles on a face' problem can be solved by reducing the number of lightstyles on that face... capiche? ;) 
Rj.... The Italian Buddy... 
Well, I should have written ...bad lightning on a face may simply gives somes weird shadow effects.

Actually, if the tool generates the warning, it means there is a problem. It does not mean it is visible, as it certainly depends of each individual light strength on the face that generates the issue...
I remember having such warnings in my very first map, and that I never noticed any weird light/shadow effects ingame....

So you have to inspect the area ingame, and then:
- either you are lucky and you don't give a shit to the warning as nothing is clearly visible
- or you are in deep shit as you have to rework your lightning effects....

Experiment !! 
Rj: 
this is not an old engine vs. new engine bug. The bsp format only allows 4 light styles per face, so light.exe will pick four and if there was a 5th style, its light will not be present on that face.

What JPL says is true: if the extra style was contributing a very low amount of light to that face; its absence will not be noticeable.

If yo do need to fix it, you should reduce the number of switchable lights or styled lights in the vicinity of that face -- either fewer styles, or fewer targetnames (for switchable lights) or give those lights a smaller radius or something. (assuming the lighting tool gives coordinates of the face.) 
Yes. 
i gather that now. nonetheless i thank you for your detailed reiteration of JPLs reiteration of necros' answer to my original question ;) 
I Vaguely Remember That Error 
But what I remember more is one compiler giving the error, and not another, in exactly the same map. Any ideas? 
Willem 
I sent some wads out to Quaketastic, not the stuff you mentioned though. Was too early to think staight also... 
Re: 9913 
different compilers compile differently? ^_^; 
Hitting The Decks 
When a scragg is killed and falls to the floor, how is the floor being detected i.e. time to stop falling, - is it within qc or is it an engine thing? 
 
scrag uses hull1 when doing collision. all collision is done by the engine. 
Snap2grid 
Is there a way (shortcut) to snap brushes to the grid in gtkr1.5? 
It's Like... 
ctrl-g isn't it? Or is that only in previous versions? 
 
Yes, that's it. Thanks 
This Train Is Being Stubborn 
I'm always positive I did something like this in the past, but for whatever reason now, it isn't working.

I have a func_train which sits at destination 1. You have to trigger it to get it to move to destination 2. It arrives at destination 2 and stops until triggered again, to go back at destination 1, and the process repeats.

The problem is, the train stops at destination 2 and stays there, regardless if I try to trigger it again. I've tried setting its path_corner to "wait" "9999999" but it doesnt seem to make a difference.

What can I do to get this train working the way I want it to? I'm sure its something very simple that I've overlooked. 
 
I think it's "wait" "-1" isn't it? 
 
I tried "wait" "-1" as well, same result unfortunately. 
 
i'm not so sure that's possible with standard progs. 
 
it's not. the stock func_train is very rudimentary. :(

if you're just going from one point to another without any other paths in between, you could just use a toggleable door, otherwise, you're out of luck. :S 
You Can In Quoth Cant You? 
 
 
yeah, hipnotic progs also has this (which is where it's from). 
Darn... 
Was hoping there would be a solution. And yes, the train does run on multiple paths.

Well fellas, I hope you won't mind waiting for the train when it comes time to ride on it again. 
Hm 
if you replace the shub teleball with a blank model (like with a single vertex or something) and just have it move at the same speed right above the train, you could have a teleporter that brings you to it.

it's not a great solution, of course. 
Orl 
A multiple-platform train, then. Or shortcut teleporters opening up after it has reached its destination. 
Shortcut Teleporters 
are handy, but they thwart immersion because they are usually incoherent with the theme of the surroundings. Why would there be a platform, for example in a base, in the first place if people could just use a teleporter? Why do the teleporters open only after you have used the platform?

I think if you cannot make it work with a platform, and cannot deliver a reason to use the platform in the first place, then you should think of something else.

It's a different matter if your theme is more fantastic, of course. If your surroundings are surreal and don't make sense (Contract Revoked would be an example), you can get away with being incoherent. But still I would prefer if such gimmicks are used only where they make some sort of sense in the context of your surroundings. 
Switchable Lights Question 
Is it possible to make one button trigger multiple lights that go on at different times ?
It must be possible, I've seen it done, but I don't know how. Maybe a relay or something ?
Or can you ad a "wait" to the lights ?
I don't know, please help me out. 
At SleepwalkR 
I agree with what you are saying, but it's Quake we're talking about, not a game that tries to be realistic. I hate using teleports because they are an easy way out. If you fuck up your map design, just ad a teleporter and you're back in business. I hate that. But you can also have some fun with it by letting the monsters use it as well. Fragging them that way is sort of fun.
It's also handy when you have to fight lots of Vores. If there are too many "balls" chasing you, you can "clean them up" by teleporting, preferably somewhere in the same room. 
 
Is it possible to make one button trigger multiple lights that go on at different times ?
...
Maybe a relay or something


trigger_relay is pretty much made for this kind of thing. 
Re ? 
I'm not saying that you should be realistic, I'm saying you should be coherent. That's a difference ;-) 
I Don't Understand Trigger_relay 
I made a Func_button, pointing to a Trigger_relay, set a delay in there, pointing to 4 lights, who then target the relay again.

But when the button is pushed, after a while (probably the set delay ?) all the lights go on at the same time.

I don't understand how I have to make it work. 
 
trigger_relay fires it's targets after delay.
so make more than one trigger_relay with different delays to trigger the lights at different times. 
 
The button targets four relays; each of these then targets one of the lights with a respective delay. 
Thanks A Lot ! 
I would never have figured that one out, that you have to use one trigger_relay for each light.
Cheers ! 
FQ Windowed 
How do I get Fitz to run in a window? 
 
fitzquake.exe -window 
Negke 
Oh, that's just too easy - I would never have got there!

Thanks. 
Minimum Light Level 
Hi. How can I set the minimum light level when using darkplaces with Quake 1? With normal quake light level in worldspawn will do, but not with darkplaces. 
Looped Sounds 
It is a long time since I did anything with sound: how do I tell if a sound is looped or not? I have GoldWave 5.19 
 
Mathuz: set "_light" in the worldspawn entity or compile with "light.exe -light #"

Mike: Check if the loop flag is set in the wav properties and look for a cue point/loop marker. 
Negke 
Doh! I don't know how to view the .wav properties. 
I Can't Remember And Don't Have GW Installed, Either 
Try the Help dialog/manual. Or good old trial and error. 
Re: Looped Sounds 
i'm not sure, but it should just show up in the main editor window.

cue points/regions/loops are usually represented as like a dotted line crossing the waveform or a chevron at the top where the timeline is. 
Loops 
OK, got it now. As you say, loops = Cue Points.

Thanks both. 
 
well, there are 3 distinct markers in wav files from what i've seen.

cue points which are exactly that-- points

regions which are two points linked together to define a region between the two

loops which are sometimes called sustain loops which are like regions but allow you to specify things like # of loops so you could actually have multiple loops that play different # of times in the same .wav file, although not many wav players will actually follow those loops. the only program i know of that makes use of sustain loops is tracker programs like modplug.

quake only seems to accept cues and regions and from what i remember, ignores sustain loops. i guess this is mostly just an fyi but i thought maybe it might be useful to know in case you ever have a wav that's not looping that is supposed to or something. 
Cool Edit 
has a feather to save waves single or looped and is shareware. 
Confused: 
Making lights into func_illusionarys (just cuboid lights) increases vertex count!!!

Im at the point where only AGLQuake will run my map because I have hit the vertex limit. of about 65000.

What's the easiest way of reducing vertexes? Why does making a light brush into a func_illusionary increase the count? 
 
"What's the easiest way of reducing vertexes?"

I'm going to go ahead and state the obvious - delete stuff. 
"Making Lights Into Func_illusionarys" 
What? 
 
whether a brush is world or bmodel, it's still geometry and hence has vertices. also, don't forget that the compiler doesn't know what a func_illusionary is, so bmodels, whether they are solid or not at runtime still generate collision stuffs.

use r_showtris to see how the bsp face splitting is behaving in the area but yeah, the only real way to reduce vertices is to reduce geometry.

neg: i'm working under the assumption he's talking about light fixtures

there's some kind of limit in the engine in how big a face can be and it's related to the size of the texture on it. scaling the texture up means the face can be that much bigger.
if you scale textures up, this will require bsp to split faces less but obviously can't be done just anywhere. 
 
I remember Levelord talking about that back in the mission pack days. He said he would take back faces that the player can't see and scale them to high heaven to reduce cuts. 
Yeah 
No - its sorted now. I was saving a new version then compiling an older version. It was wierd - I had some light fixtures which were causeign face-splitting, say small octagons for example too, and i was func_illusionarying them but it didnt seem to reduce the vertices.
Turns out I was compiling the wrong map file!!! Stupid Rick..... 
Uhm 
Use the RMQ engine. Which is as of right now Quakespasm. Soon it will have some interesting stiff.

I can't elaborate because it all depends on others - I can't look into learning how to code an engine right now.

In any case, that issue sounds odd. Maybe I'm not understanding it right. Long way to go yet. 
Aztec/inca/maya Textures? 
Hello!
Does anyone know if there are high-def versions of the Quake1 maya textures anywhere?
And if not, do you know of a good source of aztec/maya/inca-inspired high-def tga/jpg textures I could use? (I'm mapping in Darkplaces)
Any pointer will be appreciated! :) 
Cocot 
I think sock made some for maya theme, but I'm at work can't see is site... see is profile and go to is webpage! 
 
Thanks, Trinca! I found his site when I was searching earlier, actually. There is no inca set per se, but at map (Pyramid of the Magician) that is inca-themed. Maybe I could extract and use some of the textures from it...
His Egyptian set is really cool (and big), so I could also use that instead - I was just a little worried that it would be even more cliche... ;P 
This One? 
Erm... 
Yes, I think so, well the high-def version of it: http://www.simonoc.com/pages/materials/tpegypt/index.htm :) 
Yeah 
Fantastic textures pack :D
GG 
Chthon Lava Balls 
What distance do they fly until they're removed - 1024 units? 
My Balls Last For 1792 Units 
 
Quoth Sound Issue... Continuing 
necros said a while ago in #7873: play_sound_triggered still does have the ability to stop a looping sound from playing. as long as impulse is set, if a play_sound_triggered (with the toggle flag on) is triggered again, the sound will be stopped.

I tested it and it does not work, so I guess I forgot something. Here it is and how it looks in .map file

{
"classname" "play_sound_triggered"
"origin" "-2912 0 88"
"noise" "ambience/jpl/lava_rubble_loop.wav"
"volume" "0.7"
"speed" "-1"
"targetname" "HellRubble"
"toggle" "1"
"impulse" "0"
}

Obviously the entity will be triggered by two different triggers (actually a target2 field in two different func_teleport)...

So would anybody consider to help me please ? 
Play_sound_triggered 
I didn't try this yet, but what you got looks correct.

"impulse" "0" I think is always default.

so maybe try "impulse" "1" 
2 Things 
"toggle" is incorrect. toggle is a bitflag in spawnflags with the value 1, so it should be replaced with "spawnflags" "1" (or add the appropriate checkbox in your editor).

and then, as roblot said, "impulse" has to be non-zero. if you set impulse to 0, it basically acts as if you didn't put anything at all. 
Roblot/necros 
OK, I understand my mistakes. Thanks a lot to you guys.
I'll try it this evening ;) 
Argh... Still Does Not Work 
In .map file it looks like this:

I have two trigger teleports that have a "target" destination, and a "target2" that triggers the play_sound_triggerd item, as shown below

// ToHell:g[2] -> Entities:g[9] -> trigger_teleport:b[19]
{
"classname" "trigger_teleport"
"spawnflags" "2"
"target" "InHell"
"target2" "HellRubble"
// Brush 0


And with the modification you suggested, the play_sound_triggered item looks like this

// HellPart1:g[3] -> Entities:g[1] -> play_sound_triggered:e[2]
{
"classname" "play_sound_triggered"
"origin" "-2912 0 88"
"noise" "ambience/jpl/lava_rubble_loop.wav"
"volume" "0.7"
"speed" "-1"
"targetname" "HellRubble"
"spawnflags" "1"
"impulse" "1"
}


What am I doing wrong ? 
Maybe I Found The Issue 
Toggle field is bit 6 in spawnflags (according to func_door, when I set it)
So maybe play_sound_triggered should look like this:

// HellPart1:g[3] -> Entities:g[1] -> play_sound_triggered:e[2]
{
"classname" "play_sound_triggered"
"origin" "-2912 0 88"
"noise" "ambience/jpl/lava_rubble_loo...
"volume" "0.7"
"speed" "-1"
"targetname" "HellRubble"
"spawnflags" "32"
"impulse" "1"
}


Let's have a try 
Failed 
:( 
 
no, it's bit 1 for the sound entity.
even though the label for the spawnflag bit is the same as the door, it's just text at the end of the day, so entities with identical flag names can have totally different bit values. :S

i forgot one crucial bit of info last time, so sorry about making you run in circles.

the thing i forgot to mention is that you must set the 'wait' key to any non-zero (but positive) value in order to gain access to looping functionality otherwise the entity just behaves like a single use sound player.

if your sound already loops automatically, you can just set 'wait' to 999999 so that it never restarts the sound on it's own, otherwise, just set 'wait' to the length of the sound.

if you want it to start off (not start off playing), set 'state' to '1'. 
Necros 
no, it's bit 1 for the sound entity.
even though the label for the spawnflag bit is the same as the door, it's just text at the end of the day, so entities with identical flag names can have totally different bit values. :S


OK, understood, I though it was a generic set of field with one dedicated bit for ne dedicated function.


i forgot one crucial bit of info last time, so sorry about making you run in circles.

Bah, don't worry... ;)


the thing i forgot to mention is that you must set the 'wait' key to any non-zero (but positive) value in order to gain access to looping functionality otherwise the entity just behaves like a single use sound player.

if your sound already loops automatically, you can just set 'wait' to 999999 so that it never restarts the sound on it's own, otherwise, just set 'wait' to the length of the sound.


Indeed, the sound loops automatically... So if I understood well, I have to set wait to sound lenght.... I hope wait field supports floating point values ;)

Anyway, thanks a lot for all these explanations :) It sounds like it is working fine ;) 
 
I have to set wait to sound lenght

you don't have to. if the sound loops automatically, you can just set wait to a huge number and let the engine handle looping for you.
but there is that bug where if a sound starts outside your hearing range and you subsequently move into hearing range afterward, the sound will not be playing. using the 'wait' key will make it start again which can get around the problem if you sound isn't very long.

it could be either way. :) 
Another Question That Occurred To Me: 
are rotating MOVETYPE_PUSH subject to the same kind of .nextthink treatment as moving MOVETYPE_PUSH?

that is to say:

void() rotThink =
{
rotating.avelocity = '0 0 0';
};

void() thisFunctionIsRunningRightNow =
{
rotating.nextthink = time + 0.01;
rotating.think = rotThink;
rotating.avelocity = '90 0 0';
};


-assume you never get higher than 99fps
-avelocity is 90 degrees per second on X axis.
-you are getting only 10FPS

does the rotater rotate 0.9 degrees or 9 degrees before stopping?

0.9 degrees means it behaves like moving MOVETYPE_PUSH in that their nextthink is calculated retroactively after the next frame comes along.
9 degrees means it acts like non-MOVETYPE_PUSH entities and will only be updated when the next frame comes along.

looking at the source, i see they get a .blocked which i think implies they should behave just like moving MOVETYPE_PUSHers (which also means their nextthinks should be suspended while blocked). 
I Need V_armor.mdl 
Posted by SuperDuper Quake: v_armor.mdl [88.195.178.209] on 2010/07/22 13:33:25



When i go map. This error comes:

http://i28.tinypic.com/53uz2p.jpg 
Quick Google. 
 
I wonder if he Fixed the thing where if you played as Jesus and threw the plagued gibs everywhere they would stay on the ground and kill all the monsters the second they spawned. 
SIN 
Lately I was playing SIN and I wondered how to catch a grip on them, like extracting a map.
Quark5.1 has a setup for Sin, but the bsp does appear like a entity fill path only.
Watching the quark editor it is a Q3 game.
The wiki tells of a Quake 2 (id Tech 2, modified).

Is there a usefull input to these files or is it, like the progs of malice a J.C.ace? 
Madfox 
there is a tool "sinpak" or something to extract/watch the sin stuff
i've got it somewhere on my hdd, i try to search . or u could google search it by yourself
i cant remember exact name of that tool right now 
 
Unrelated to this issue, but avoid the SiN anime at all costs. It is bad. 
Teleporter Sound 
Trigger_teleport emits its ambient sound from the center of the entity, right? For I just had this idea for a workaround for 'limiting' the sound in a certain direction by expanding the trigger volume into the opposite direction. 
Teleporter Sound 
Please make this defature as an option through specific field ;) 
Re 9984 
o = (self.mins + self.maxs)*0.5;
ambientsound (o, "ambience/hum1.wav",0.5 , ATTN_STATIC);


yep 
Gensurf 
I know Sin behaves bad and all. It's a real sin that shipment made turn out the game that bad to handle. But I must admit maps like "mansion" are done very impressive.

I had the pakfile converted to extracted files, but I couldn't find anything to use the *.sam files. There are Q3 compilers to make new sinpak files. But it feels as if the structure is hardly to work with.

As if I have to install all garbadge to extract Q3 files. 
 
The sin files aren't always the same as id ones, I know that at least the pak files are different and can't be extracted/created with normal tools... maybe ask here:

http://www.ritualistic.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=da26c1f506ef14877848c952341bef7a&f=10 
Re: Rj's Black Zombie Model 
http://negke.quaddicted.com/images/blacklight.jpg
It can get even weirder...

In other news, fuck those random black triangles! Another totally unnecessary obstacle. 
Didn't Someone Say Models Were Lit Depending On The Floor Beneath? 
Apparently it's the ceiling this time, the ledge in the shot. Works fine in other areas, though. 
 
Maybe that face is in the bounding box of the light? 
Fitzquake Right? 
or a derivative.
i believe it was established that this is a bug with the engine? something to do with metl's new light code or something.

i believe it is taking light values from outside faces (when the map isn't sealed, at least). if it's not sealed, try sealing it to see if it goes away, otherwise, you can try reshaping the brushwork in the area. :S 
Indeed 
Luckily, I could fix it by simply moving the torches a few units up. Strange issue. The map was sealed by the way. 
'twasn't Fitzquake 
metl did mention it might be an enigne bug but i got that problem in glquakebjp too 
Ok 
In my case, it was.

I also had another black torch elsewhere that seemed properly placed and all. Turned out a rogue space beneath the floor and wall brushes was responsible there. Possibly related. 
Oh 
looks like it's more than i thought. :S
come to think of it, if it happened in glquakebjp, than it's probably in glquake as well. 
I Have The Same Issue... 
... when monsters walk through a floor that is made of func_breakable (i.e Quoth)...
Maybe it could be solved by adding a light just on top of the func_breakable... I Ididn't tested it yet... wait and see ;) 
 
that's a different problem from the one above.
light info is only taken from world geometry btw, so that won't help, unfortunately.

you could put a light on the world geometry beneath the breakable though. if it's a sky texture, bury a non-sky textured brush inside the sky texture to transfer light info. (sky texture does not transfer light info) 
 
if you need to make a pitch black pit with a func_door bridge or something over it (ie: you can't put lights at the bottom of the pit) you can place a 16 unit high func_illusionary (or even a func_wall) at the bottom of the pit.
then make a spotlight below the top of the func_illusionary brush at the bottom of the pit with the following settings:

'light' '150'
'wait' '0.1'
'delay' '5'
'mangle' '0 -90 0'
'angle' '180'
'_softangle' '0.01'

this creates a spotlight that will point downwards and light up all the area that's hidden by the func_illusionary thereby transferring light info to entities over the pit without breaking the illusion. 
Oops 
not _softangle, but rather _anglesense

my bad. :P 
Heh 
that was post ten thousand!

nice way to mark it :P 
 
i only noticed after. :P 
"Luckily, I Could Fix It" 
Scratch that. So Fitzquake is the new DP now?! 
@necros 
Thanks for the tip: I'll try it ;) 
Teleport Angle Override 
I have an ambush situation where a Shambler teleports to the location of another monster (which acts as the destination for the teleporter). The problem is the Shambler doesn't face the direction as the monster but arrives at angle 0. Can I override this with a hack? Preach?


Nice idea for a level gimmick or secret: a monster roaming through the map that the player can teleport to. It could be a Scrag, and the player would have to get it to become angry at another monster in an unreachable place to be able to get there himself. 
 
i don't know if that's possible. the teleport code uses mangle to set the player angles.

the very first line for info_teleport_destination is

self.mangle = self.angles;
quake automatically converts the 'angle' key to 'angles' by just placing the value in the y part of the vector. in fact, 'angle' isn't even declared in the progs. this is only done at runtime, i believe.

i had to add a special case into my own progs for monsters teleporting to other monsters to get it to work.

just make sure the monsters spawn in angry is the best you can do. :S 
Frikinhell 
Anyone: frikdos.exe isn't compatible with 64-bit. Any suggestions? 
Solution... 
Build a new one from source for your platform. http://www.inside3d.com/frikbot/frikqcc/frikqcc27src.zip

Just delete the "plock=blah;" line in qcc.c (how'd that get in there?) 
 
i've always wondered, do people who suggest it seriously believe that Build a new one from source is a viable alternative? i've seen that 'solution' thrown around a few times now and it seems absurd to me.

that said, i don't know exactly what's going on, but i use frikqcc.exe without any problems in w7 64bit. 
Compiler 
fteq even a smaller progs.dat bitcount and some errors just overide.
I don't know if that's on 64-bit.

http://www.fteqw.com/ 
Total_channels == Max_channels Workaround 
There's a simple way to work around this issue without sacrificing the decorative value of torches and flames. Just replace some of them with dummy models and add a few extra point lights. The func_illusionary hack comes in handy here, because it doesn't require messing around with the modelindex, creates a static entity, and preserves the animation.

"classname" "func_illusionary"
"origin" "x y z"
"model" "progs/flame.mdl"
// or flame2.mdl

If there's no other real light_flame around, place an additional sound hack entity for the fire ambience. 
Building From Source 
I use Gentoo, so "build it from source" is in principle a convincing solution to me. If the guy gives me a makefile, I'm unlikely to complain.

Even Ubuntu comes with GCC. You could say that Linux is a car that comes with a full set of tools to repair it, and the owner is supposed to know how to use them. That's why Linux is cheap.

Windows on the other hand... I guess on Windows, users aren't supposed to know what a compiler is, so telling them to build something from source is outside the rules for that platform, basically. Windows is a car where the user is told to call the customer service when it breaks (and then wait outside in the snow for it to arrive).

Same for Mac. Mac will just drop a new car at your doorstep and charge you money for it, and users will simply pay for that, because they're pretty rich. The old Mac car gets discarded, even if just the radio was broken. Mac users don't compile stuff. Slaves back at the factory do it for them. 
 
OR WE WILL BEAT DEM! 
 
i suspected it was something like that. i don't even know what a makefile is. :P

just something to keep in mind for you code monkeys out there. :) 
Tutorials. 
Hi.

Could somebody point me to a good tutorial that would describe curved surfaces for me? Not the ones in Q3, I mean using angled brushes to round off a corner so it wouldn't be so, 90 degrees.

I just need a little help with the geometry of it all.

Thanks. 
 
czg wrote this http://www.quaddicted.com/stuff/curv_tut.htm

There was a more recent one by someone else (ijed?) but I don't know where to find it. 
Curves 
http://web.archive.org/web/20050308151558/http://czg.spawnpoint.org/curv_tut/curv_tut.htm

There is a curve tutorial by CZG, where he shows you how to make pipes and stuff on the grid... in the archive version, the images are missing though. :-/

I guess I could whip something up as well for radiant, maybe I'll do it today, it's easy...

It's hard to explain without pictures. Let's start with an inward corner, like in doorways. Imagine a 90 degree corner of a doorway. To round it off, you basically put more angles in there, for example you can create a 45 degree corner by putting a little triangle shaped brush in there.

This is all that id usually did in the original Quake maps; you'll find lots of doorways that have little wedges in them.

To round it off more than 45 degrees, you'll have to put more brushes in. The next step is putting two little wedges in, and make it so they don't overlap (pull the edges around in Radiant until both little triangles look the same size, and always stay on grid). That will create two additional surfaces in the corner and make it *very* roughly rounded.

For each additional surface in the curve, you'll have to put in an additional little brush. This is the part that is easier to explain with pictures. It will usually look OK if you have three additional surfaces in a corner/curve (this translates to three little brushes), where the middle one is at a 45 degree angle and the outer ones are at a lesser angle.

A 45 degree angle is created in the editor by going one step down, one step sideways on the grid. OK?

Lesser / sharper angles are created by going two steps down, one step sideways. Or four steps down, one step sideways. It's done like this to ensure everything stays on the grid.

http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/screen_shots/24sided.jpg

Observe very closely how the angles are done in this 24-sided circle. You don't need so many sides in the beginning - doing the "three angles/brushes per corner" method will yield a 16 sided circle if you do it "all the way around", since 4 X 4 surfaces = 16. It's 16 and not 12 because you have to add the sides that aren't angled. ;-) hard to get without pictures, I know.

This 16-sided method is good enough usually, but sometimes you may want 24 sided to make something look even more smooth. More surfaces in a curve = it looks rounder, smoother.

Now for out facing corners, like the corner of a corridor, it is much the same method, only the curve goes in the other direction... the angles/brushes are on the inside of the curve in this case. The methodology is much the same.

Maybe someone has the pics from the CZG tutorial, but I guess I should put that in my radiant tutorial as well.

You can of course simply use (ex.) Radiant's functions to create cylinders. I'd strongly suggest to stay at a reasonable amount of sides, like a 16 sided cylinder, and be very sure that every corner is on the grid, snapping the thing to the grid (Ctrl-G in radiant) to make damn sure. You can then use the clipper to chop the cylinder into half-and quarter cylinders. This method works best if you set the grid to like 32, and make the cylinder from a relatively large brush like 256x256. For tighter curves, you'll need a smaller grid, or less sides in the curve.

If you look at handrails in games like Quake 4, the corners are often only using two sides. It looks crappy, but for small things in a large/detailed environment, you can get away with it. Also, curves eat performance.

A map full of curves will run slower and slower and take longer and longer to vis. The higher the number of sides in your circles, the slower it will be. Don't go overboard. 
 
nice, Spirit has the version with pictures. :-) 
Marksurfaces 
Hello all, I'm new on this forum (I am reading it for a long time, but only decided to post now).
I'm working on a Quake 1 map for quite a long time (in Quark) and I got a warning telling me that I have too many marksurfaces in the map (limit seems to be 32k). But the map compiles ok and I can run it in standard glquake.

Questions :
1. What is "marksurfaces" ? I think they are the total polygon number from the map, but I want a confirmation.
2. If the answer to question 1 is "yes", then should I try to keep it under 32k ? What will happen if I go way beyond this ?
...Because my map is not very big, I'd say it's rather small and it's not very detalied either, but I plan to add more details.

Ah, one last note - the map is NOT surrounded by some big box and it doesn't have "leaks" :)

Thanks in advance for your responses and please escuse my bad english. 
 
Hi RaverX. I'm not sure what marksurfaces are, I only know that you get more of them when your map becomes bigger :) Engine coders will know what they are.

When you exceed the 32 k limit, the map won't run in standard (old) Quake engines. Newer engines, like Fitzquake 0.85, Quakespasm, darkplaces, FTE, and probably DirectQ, have higher marksurfaces limits (and generally higher limits for most things). So with a modern engine, nothing will happen except a warning might be printed to the console.

How a pretty small map could exceed marksurfaces I'm not sure. It might be the editor. Quark is a little infamous among mappers. But if it compiles and runs, then fine.

Remember sending your map to people like negke for playtesting before eventually releasing. It helps. 
This Thread Is A Great Resource 
View 'all posts' and then do a word search whenever you've got a question - chances are it'll pop up somewhere.

Marksurfaces are produced by complex brushwork, or just lots of brushes intersecting / touching each other. Making simpler structures will reduce marksurfaces, as will just making less map.

But I wouldn't worry about it too much - most people now use a modernised engine so you should be fine.

But!

Make sure to use the compile tools from here:

http://user.tninet.se/~xir870k/

And the documentation there is very good as well - it'll give you a much more concise explanation of marksurfaces and all the other terminology as well.

There are newer versions of the compilers like Willem's WVis which allows for multi-threading - handy, but not necessary if you're just starting.

Any tools you want can be found on http://www.quaddicted.com/ which also has all the maps etc. 
Thanks 
Thank you all for your response, they are greatly appreciated. I really didn't expect anyone to answer so fast.

ijed, I already use those tools, I'll try to read the documentation as well...

You are right, I'm using a lot of small brushes, like small "screws" to hold pillars on the ground, duplicated a lot of times, I guess that might be the problem...

One more question - when the compiler splits the polygons in the map, does it matter how many lights and shadows (lightmaps) are in the map ?

What I'm trying to say :
Let's say I have a face of a cube with a single texture applied there, that's a rectangle. It should be split in 2 triangles, right ? (best case scenario). But what if there's a light nearby casting some shadows there ? Will I still get 2 triangles or a lot more ?

I'm asking this because I alos have a lot of lights in my map (I like playing with shadows). 
Archive Of CZG Curve Tutorial 
with pictures.

http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/misc/curvetut.7z

I can make a .zip if you need. 
RaverX 
Try turning the screws into a func_wall (one per room or so), this should help a little. In some cases you can also move brushes 1 unit away from adjacent ones (walls or floor) so the faces behind them don't get split multiple times. This two techniques can be used to lower marksurfaces quite a bit, but their effectiveness also depends on the situation - what helps in one area might be counterproductive in another. Walk around the map with r_showtris 1 (Fitzquake, DP) to see how the faces are split and where optimization makes most sense.

Lights have no influence on the geometry and how it's compiled. 
Hi RaverX 
Reducing Marksurfaces can be done by making some of those small detail-brushes into func_illusionaries. You can make a group of seperate detail brushes into one func_illusionary entity. This will heavily reduce the marksurfaces count and it will also stop the player from clipping agains the brush. If they are small then you wont notice any difference whatsoever.

func_illusionaries, walls, doors, trains etc dont cast shadows though. But this is OK - if you have a large structure like a detailed tank for example, the you can make the whole thing into a func_illusionary or whatever, and then put a solid brush inside this so that you can quite see it, but it creates a shadow and also stops the player from being able to move through it.

If you want to see the marksurfaces and how the world model fits together then in Fitzquake anyway, you can use the console command "r_showtris 1". This will draw the lines of the world model (BSP). Someone said that you can reduce marksurfaces buy seperating touching brushes. This can work very well. Imagine a square face with a cuboid light fitting stuck in the middle of it.
The square face would be made up of two triangles ideally, but the touching brush means that it needs to be a lot more than two triangles, connecting points at each corner of the touching brush to the four outside corners of the square face :)

Confusing eh?

In short, my advice:

Make each of the clusters of "screws" into a func_illusionary (this is exactly what I would do), re-compile, and watch your marksurface count go down :D 
Lol 
full of missing letters and typos.

"theN you can make the whole thing"

"canT quite see it" 
Curves 
I started a radiant curve tutorial at kneedeepinthedoomed.wordpress.com, for now only pics, will fill in words in a while. Not everything will work in other editors, but the basics are the same. Radiant has very easy ways to make cylinders, circular holes, and rings with a lot of sides and perfectly snap them to the grid. I'll also do pipes, connecting pipes, circles out of pipes, and finally terrain etc.

I've stuck to 16 sided circles, maybe you want to do something about 24 sided ones, and correct all my mistakes, ijed. 
Light / BSP 
Are completely separate. All that the light tool does is draw the lightmap - a big texture made of shadows that gets painted over your world geometry.

Any func_ brushes aren't part of world geometry so don't affect Vis times, marksurfaces etc. although they can have other problems like flickering in and out of visibility if within different Vis leafs - usually only for big brush entities though.

They don't make shadows either, but if you have something big and intricate you can turn it into a func_wall and stick a simple rectangular world brush inside it to make a shadow.

Curve tutorial... I will add to it, but in a month or so. If I have an attack of boredom (sweet, sweet boredom) maybe I'll get back from holiday with something ready. 
Marksurfaces And Vis 
The hint with r_showtris really helped. I turned on r_showtris and ... HOLLY SH*T ! The screen was full of lines and I notices something - I can see the entire map. First it was like WTF, then (in 2-3 seconds) it hits me : the map is not fully VISED, I compiled it with novis, because I always add stuff and I need to compile it quickly to see if my "new things" really look like I want to...

Could that be my problem ? 
 
As long as your map runs OK in a modern engine I don't think you *have* a problem.

It needs to be fullvised before you release it, though.

Fullvis it and load it into an engine that supports r_lockpvs. This allows you to freeze your current field of view, so to speak, and then noclip around to see how much of the map gets actually drawn. This is often quite enlightening, too.

Those lines should get less once you apply the func_illusionary or func_wall trick. In a detailed map it's normal to have a lot of polies, though. 
Pro Tip: 
you can also use r_showtris instead of r_lockpvs to see how much is being drawn. This can break down in polygon-dense areas, if you can't clearly see what you're looking at, though. 
Metl 
About newskip. Is it normal that it doesn't remove all faces when running it once? I mean I can't find any visible instances, but when running it a second time, it says that another six faces were removed that it apparently didn't catch the first time. 
RaverX 
Marksurfaces isn't influenced by VIS either. Although it's not a bad idea to at least run "vis -fast" for WIP compiles, this isn't the cause of your problem. The only two reasons I can imagine are either a leak (so QBSP didn't remove the outside or backsides of brushes), which you said there isn't, or excessive detail made of world brushes. The latter sounds odd since you mentioned the map was fairly small and plain. 
You Can Find Out If The Map Correctly Compiled 
with no leaks by doing the following:

load the map into your engine
bring down the console and type:

"gl_clear 1" (this makes the engine draw the void outside the map each rendered frame as a grey colour, so you dont get the "hall of mirrors" type effect you would normally get when outside the map)

then

"noclip" (so you can walk through walls)

You can now move outside the map. If you can see the outside of the map's brushes then you know there is a leak.

Another way of identifying errors would be to post the entire QBSP log onto this thread, so we can look at it :) 
Additionnal 
.. if the compiler claims the map leaks, then it generates a .prt file. Type "pointfile" in the console, and a white doted-line will spot where the leak is, at least the first detected leak by the compiler... ;)
Enjoy ! 
Leaks 
The map complies fine, no leaks. Sometime, when I add or remove stuff and there's a "hole" in the map it won't compile, but it's not the case this time.

I'll try tommorow the func_ilusionary trick, I think this will help in other areas too, some shadows casted on small polys look bad, so I hope that converting those brushes into func_ilusionary will help me get rid of that. 
Tip 
Entity brushes don't plug leaks. They can be outside the map no problem but won't stop a map leaking on their own. 
Negke: 
The marksurfaces are not truly removed, just moved to the end of the list.

So, during a second run it will find the same six marksurfaces, and again move them to the end of the list (but they were already there so it's not changing anything.) 
 
... but, i can see the message is misleading, theoretically it could be smart enough to notice that those marksurfaces were already "hidden" and not re-report them. 
Func_illusionary Not Good 
func_illusionary dind't work so good :(
Compiling the map before generated this warning:

WARNING: Marksurfaces 35716 exceed normal engine max 32767

But the map compiles ok and can be run without any problems, I get the same error in Quake engine when the map loads, but no other problems.


I take some small brushes (they are also duplicated and mirrored) and I put the brushes inside the func_illusionary.
Then I compile the map again.
This time I get two warnings in compiler :

WARNING: Models 520 exceed normal engine max 256
WARNING: Marksurfaces 33494 exceed normal engine max 32767

So, I still exceed the marksurfaces and I get a new warnig, that prooves to be fatal in engine, because when the map loads I get something like :

Excessive marksurfaces (33494, normal max=32767)
Excessive models (520, normal max=256)

Host_error : cl_parse_static: too many (256) static entities, max = 256

So, the marksurfaces dropped a little, but the func_illusionary caused a MUCH worse error...

I don't know what to do now, I'm really frustrated, my map is not very big, nor very detalied (ok, it's not plain floors, walls and ceil - I have some decors, but nothing TOO fancy)

I saw maps MUCH bigger and with a lot more details that didn't seem to exceed limits...

Any other ideas ? Please. 
Send It To Someone 
To take a look. Its odd that didn't work, but there's a lot of stuff to get used to with bsp.

I can't take a look because I'm going away in two days, but someone on the board should be able to help.

In fact, send it to me anyway - the email is in my profile. It should just be a case of looking at it for five minutes.

Try not to get discouraged. 
Hand Over 
the map.
send it on email. 
RaverX 
You say you put the small brushes INSIDE func_illusionary. Don't do this! Instead, group a bunch of these small brushes in a common area, and while all selected, turn them into func_illusionary, or func_wall, or even func_door. Any entity will do, with func_door you can make them move if you like. 
Also... 
20 brushes made into 1 func_illusionary = 1 model.

20 brushes made into 20 func_illusionary = 20 models.

func_illutionary can spread over a wider (larger) area and not disappear from view. func_doors on the other hand can disappear from view if spread all over an area.

Also, I make sure that all my entities are inside the level. 
Group Brushes 
ijed, MadFox - you want the bsp or the map file ? Anyway, I want to work a little more on it, right now it's very raw in some areas, then I will send it or upload it here.

roblot - the problem is that I don't have 20 brushes, I have (for example) 1 brush that have applied a basic duplicator (x5), then everything is mirrored, so I end up with 20 brushes in the map. If I will put the brush AND the duplicator and the mirror inside func_illusionary - will it be ok ?

I ask this because the duplicator and mirror is also used for other things in the map (too big to make them illusionary). So I need to take out the small brusesh, put them into the func_illusionary, then create again duplicators and mirror for them (inside the illusionary). 
Both Or Either 
The bsp will give a good idea what's going wrong and the .map will allow to give a specific 'this is why'. 
 
duplicator. 
Can 
just compile the source .map file of corse. 
I'll Take A Look Tonight (or Possibly This Afternoon) 
If you want. Im a little confused really :)
I would like to see what is going on.....
You can just email it to me if you like:

trowbridge (dot) richard (AT) googlemail [dot] com

.map file and/or .rmf file are what I need, the BSP too if you want, but not necessary (unless you are using a custom texture wad) :) 
 
By the way, Fitz and Aguirre's gl engines has a 64,000 Marksurface limit, and warnings can be ignored as they are just info for developers. If your map is small and you are hitting limits, something could be wrong.

To reduce Marksufaces according to what people say here, select the brush and the duplicator and the mirror (any number of brushes) and make them into 1 func_illusionary entity. It does not need to go into another func_illusionary brush. A func_wall entity maybe a good choice also because it is solid.

If your map gets real big with lots of these multiple brush entities you could get the error:

Too many efrags

If so, just reduce a 20 brush func_illusionary to something like 15 or 10 brushes to make the error go away. 
 
I'll just cut some areas from the map for now, I have a lava cavern that sucks, it looks very bad... 
 
what's a duplicator? 
 
Yea, just upload the .map and people will help alot. Maybe Quaketastic's temp folder?

duplicator:
1 brush duplicated 5x and then all mirrored = 20 brushes 
 
ok, but is it an editor feature or something? Pretty sure Radiant or Quest don't have a "duplicator". Of course I can do that sort of thing in Radiant as well, I was just wondering if this is a special editor function.

It might end up to be a Quark problem... 
 
I think RaverX speaks another language, so instead of saying duplicate, he said duplicator. Quark might also have mapping instructions in many languages, thus making it popular around the world. I don't know though. 
 
one of the things quark has over every other editor out there is that objects in a map are visible in a tree list. you can click and drag brushes and entities into folders as well to organize things (much easier to see that wc's visgroups and radiant's non-existant groups...). there's a special folder called a duplicator folder (may have changed since i last used quark for mapping which was like 10 years ago) which essentially copies everything in the folder X number of times. it also allows you to mirror the brushes and rotate them.

the closest i can think of would be if you're working with instanced geometry in a 3d editing package. you change the original and all other instances are updated to match.


...at least, that's what i remember of it. :x 
 
Does fitzquake085 have a command to output the x,y,z position? 
 
just type 'edict 1' to see the player's edict info. origin is in there and v_angle/angles is also useful. 
 
just to explain, the first player is always edict #1, and subsequent players in coop and dm are always the second, third and fourth edicts. 
 
Or simply "viewpos" 
 
far out. :) 
Ubuntu & GtkRadiant. 
Would anyone know off hand why Gtkradiant wont work under Ubuntu 10.04? When I run it I get this error:

Gdk-CRITICAL **: gdk_window_get_window_type: assertion `GDK_IS_WINDOW (window)' failed

(process:1680): Gdk-CRITICAL (recursed) **: gdk_window_get_window_type: assertion `GDK_IS_WINDOW (window)' failed
aborting...
Aborted

Any ideas?

Also can anyone suggest any alternative map editors? (Ideally one that will run under Linux.)

Cheers! 
Ubuntu & GtkRadiant. 
Would anyone know off hand why Gtkradiant wont work under Ubuntu 10.04? When I run it I get this error:

Gdk-CRITICAL **: gdk_window_get_window_type: assertion `GDK_IS_WINDOW (window)' failed

(process:1680): Gdk-CRITICAL (recursed) **: gdk_window_get_window_type: assertion `GDK_IS_WINDOW (window)' failed
aborting...
Aborted

Any ideas?

Also can anyone suggest any alternative map editors? (Ideally one that will run under Linux.)

Cheers! 
Netradiant! 
Hmm 
They forked from 1.5? Eugh 
Yeah 
I use NetRadiant, and it's marginally better I think than 1.5 but not as good as when SPoG worked on 1.5. Those were the days man. 
Hmm 
Meh, I always prefered 1.4 and refused to update tbh... 
Dude 
Missing some of the GTK dependencies perhaps?
Netradiant, otherwise Quest (Yes!). 
Newskip 
i have newskip 1.0 from quaddicted,
when am i supposed to run it? obviously after bsp, but before vis/light, or after?

the text file doesn't say when to run it. :P 
I Always Run It Last 
just to be safe :) 
What Are The Rules For Waterskip? 
What does the name of the texture have to be? 
the wad that comes with the tool has "*waterskip" in there. 
Oh I Forgot To Ask 
is it ok to run newskip all the time? even if you don't have any skip textures? 
Yeah... 
newskip will do nothing if you have no skip textures.

and, if you run it twice, the second time it won't do anything (though it will say the same thing as the first time, i.e. "removed X surfaces")

you can run it anytime after qbsp. 
Cool 
thanks! 
 
The new hmap2 doesn't seem to care if you use skip or waterskip, the results were the same when I tried it.

I did use waterskip just to play nice. 
BSP Editing Help 1 
e1m1 is named: The Slipgate Complex - If I wanted to rename it to: Tele Zone, how could I? 
Maps I Made 
Any particular reason you'd want to that doesn't involve stealing someone else's work?

Just recompile from source with a new message key in worldspawn. Else stop changing other people's work. 
You Don't Even Need The Source... 
adquedit (http://www.quaketerminus.com/tools/adquedit_v13.zip) lets you edit entity data in bsp files. useful if you want to change trigger_changelevel values to put your own little episode together; not sure why you'd want to just rename a map but the value should be found right at the top (under the worldspawn key as said above) 
Gg Func 
Snazzy Rj, Thanks Man! 
nonentity don't be lame - I just renaming some of ID's maps 
.....here We Go..... 
*Popcorn Out* 
 
be sure to update the wikipedia page to reflect the new names... 
 
GPL means he can do whatever he wants with it, as long as he releases his source (if he even releases).

pretty sure romero was ok with that when he released the map sources under the GPL. 
Duh 
He is obviously trying to edit the copyrighted .bsp files though. 
So What 
Don't make a fuss about it. 
Agreed. 
anyone who makes a fuss about it is obviously a latent homosexual. just saying. 
It's Scientifically Proven 
 
Hmm 
Yeh. You got me. I'm clearly gay as fuck.

But if the GPL applies then he has the source (ie, actually renaming id's maps) so he can recompile from source (which I'd swear down I suggested).

Otherwise he's renaming custom maps for nefarious ends... 
If They're Not Even Being Redistributed.. 
then hell if any of it matters anyway. 
Creativity 
I would have done it,
if I could it,
but I didn't,
so I don't. 
Adquedit Does All But The Endlevel Strings 
How can I edit the paragraph that appears on the screen when I finish the last level of an episode? 
QC 
In the Quake.Qc there is a paragraph called Client.QC
On line 155 there is a quote called: "// run some text if at the end of an episode".
If you are carefull with the quake's own way of writing (ie only a specific amount of letters on the same way as the otriginal text) you can change this txt to your own.

Carefull, take the same amount text as there is! (count!).

Then compile the file, and your own txt is there after collecting all runes. 
Also 
Use the "\n" as markpoint to end your sentence.
don't change it, just count the spaces in between with interline between words and end them with hte same mark "/n".

If you use more, or in different way, the texture just ends, where the quake txt shoould end.

Something to do with the exact byte count of the Client.qc Your new client.qc and the original have to be the same datacount. 
And 
the first txt part is added twice.
this is because in sharewareversion this txt is used and in registered version the other.

you'll have to copy them twice (with the shareware blah). 
Yep 
Those are hardcoded. 
 
in doom3, you can set the key pair 'nofill' '1' and that entity will not be checked for leak checks.

is there a way to do this in quake? the light entity doesn't count, but things like path_corners (when used for func_trains, for exmample) still do.

maybe an easy way to haxor it into existing qbsp compilers? 
 
Have you tried putting the entity inside a brush even though it's technically 'outside' the gamespace? 
Start.bsp Opened With Adquedit 
"classname" "worldspawn"
"wad" "gfx/wads/start.wad"
"message" "Introduction"
"sounds" "3"

What does "sounds" mean? 
 
necros: What Zwiffle says.

Ranger: It's the CD track to play. 
Quick Question 
How can I make a door to be "shootable" only after a button is pressed. Uhmm, let me rephrase it : You have a door. It shouldn't open, it should stay closed if you get nearby or if you shoot it. Somewhere else you have a button. After you press the button the door should open if you shoot it. 
You Dialed Realtime Func Support 
put an invisible func something in front of it which you then make invisble with skip. make the button remove that. 
 
Thanks Spirit, I'll try, but I tought there is something easier. Oh well...

And another thing. How can I fix this warning ?

WARNING: CutNodePortals_r: New portal was clipped away near (-160 -752 1184) 
 
Easier solution that's actually more difficult: put a shootable trigger with a very high wait value in front of the door and (optional but recommended) make some other entity trigger it so it doesn't bleed if the player shoots it. Then killtarget it with the button.

That warning is caused by awkwardly intersecting or misaligned brushes. You can ignore it in most cases, but it wouldn't hurt to examine the brushwork around those coordinates, either. 
Btw Necros 
Note that not all compilers allow that. BJP's are fine, but hmap2 reports a leak, for example. 
 
neg!ke, I don't think it's a leak. I took a look, there's nothing interesting near those coordinates, there's only some simple bars, nothing fancy. 
 
No, that leak note was meant for necros.
Also, what's with everybody not realizing the ! is gone... :P 
Zwif 
haha wow, i never knew about that! thanks! 
Oops 
Sorry, I know you for your maps for a long time, I got used to neg!ke :P 
End 
I was the one who re�ntroduced it neg!lke,
after my lame blame lang blah, haha. 
Ambient Sounds Problem (unrelated To Previous Posts) 
I may be mistaken, but I can't hear any water or wind sounds (e1m1 for example).
I reinstalled Quake, nothing.
Set ambient_level to 1, still can't hear them. But I can hear the drip and torch sounds though from like e1m2. 
 
It's not a problem, in e1m1 there aren't ambient sounds (water or wind). There are some buzzing sounds, but you have to be close to the "source".

As long as you can hear ambient sounds in other maps it's ok. 
What Maps Have Those Amb Sounds? 
I can hear: suck1, swamp2, drip1, windfly etc, just not wind2 or water1

Those are the only 2 amb sounds I can't hear (I mean, I swear you could hear water2 when you cross the bridge in e1m1);
What maps have wind2 and water1 amb? 
 
yes, dunno what 10112 was about but you can hear the water and wind sounds in e1m1.

note that the water and wind sounds are defined in the vis process, so if you've been messing with the bsps, i'd venture to say you probably wrecked that, although i can't imagine how if you were just renaming the maps. 
The Whole Story 
I reinstalled Quake, nothing.
Set ambient_level to 1, still can't hear them. But I can hear the drip and torch (and even fl_hum1.wav) sounds though from like e1m2/e1m1


I didn't edit the maps yet, they are still stock Quake's.


I'm using Joequake, but I also tried with Winquake and even Shareware Quake. I did the testing with my volume max, and did "snd_show 1" to double check if those sounds were playing. When I used "soundlist" it displayed that wind2 & water1 were precached. No errors were displayed in the console. I tried replacing the sounds with other wavs files even. 
 
Tried a different engine then? Or a blank config? I can hear them just fine with Joequake. 
 
Or are you running a mod? Or have the paks/wavs been tampered with - perhaps the loop information got lost? Shouldn't be the case, though, if you reinstalled the game from a clean source. 
Try Installing Quake To A Completely Different Directory 
Like "c:\games\quake\" instead of "c:\quake\".

That way you will be able to rule out the theory of mods interrupting the sfx 
 
I tried with Winquake;

I don't know about the loop information hypothesis, because wouldn't it say "blah.wav is not looped" in the console?
I'm running stock Quake (at s_khz 22). I even tried running with the SW Quake's pak0 & Quake's pak1.

AUTOEXEC
---
startdemos //demo1 demo2 demo3
cl_truelightning "1"
cl_bobbing "1"
show_stats "0"
cl_bonusflash "0"
skill "3"
ambient_fade "5"
ambient_level "1.0"
r_maxsurfs "6000"
r_maxedges "10000"
r_clearcolor "0"
r_novis "1"
r_wateralpha "0.5"
d_mipcap "0"
d_mipscale "0"
d_subdiv16 "0"
v_centermove "0.1"
v_centerspeed "400"
v_kickpitch "0.75"
v_kickroll "0.75"
v_kicktime "0.4"
showram "1"
showturtle "1"
sv_aim "1.00"
sv_idealpitchscale "1"
cl_upspeed "180"
cl_rollangle "2.5"
edgefriction "2"
scr_conspeed "2500"
scr_printspeed "16"
scr_consize "0.65"
bgmbuffer "16384"
menu_main

CONFIG
---
cl_sbar "0"
_cl_color "22.000000"
_cl_name "Ranger"
m_side "0.8"
m_forward "1"
m_yaw "0.022"
m_pitch "0.022"
freelook "1"
sensitivity "4"
lookstrafe "0.000000"
lookspring "1.000000"
cl_backspeed "140.000000"
cl_forwardspeed "140.000000"
s_mixahead "0.2"
s_volume "0.4"
bgmvolume "1"
viewsize "100"
fov "90"
joystick "0"
vid_resetonswitch "0"
vid_window_y "0"
vid_window_x "0"
block_switch "0"
vid_windowed_mode "0"
vid_fullscreen_mode "3"
_windowed_mouse "0"
vid_stretch_by_2 "1"
vid_config_y "600"
vid_config_x "800"
_vid_default_mode_win "7"
_vid_default_mode "0"
_vid_wait_override "0"
vid_nopageflip "0"
_config_modem_hangup "AT H"
_config_modem_init ""
_config_modem_clear "ATZ"
_config_modem_dialtype "T"
_config_com_modem "1"
_config_com_baud "57600"
_config_com_irq "4"
_config_com_port "0x3f8"
saved4 "0"
saved3 "0"
saved2 "0"
saved1 "0"
savedgamecfg "1"
contrast "1"
gamma ".65"
crosshaircolor "79"
crosshair "1"

This is really bugging me, I mean I never noticed those 2 sounds were not playing until 2 days ago, I was thinking "I don't remember start.bsp's skill hall being this quiet" 
Other Info, Might Help Dunno 
I have Shrak, SoA, DoE, Aftershock installed too...

How does a mod disrupt it? 
Ricky 
I don't really think it's that because I installed SW Quake to see if it only affected CD Quake - I'm pretty sure I couldn't hear those 2 sounds in SW Quake


also got -heapsize 256000 & -zone 65536
if that helps 
 
tried running without that weird autoexec.cfg? 
Autoexec 
Hey, it ain't wierd - it squeezes the max outta Quake...

Anyhow, I figured out the issue: ambient_fade "5"

after making it to:
//ambient_fade "5"
Problem solved... the odd bit is that, I added that line to the autoexec to solve the amb sound issue in the first place - well it's fixed now so, ok 
And The Lesson Is 
Reinstalling Quake is worthless if you keep your config files. 
^^ That 
what spirit said 
Not Really 
The part when I tried using SW Quake - It was just SW Quake with no cfgs or anything 
Quake3 
is it possible to make a func_door (or a plat?) toggleable in quake3? 
Of Interest I Guess ;) 
Map Scale In Worldcraft 
Hi guys, brief question: Using Worldcraft 3 atm. Is it possible to increase the space available for a map? Limited to about 8k or so units.

A further quick question, is it possible to do moving liquids? :) 
Extras4 
Has moving water volumes, search for an idgames2 mirror - should be in there somewhere.

Bigger maps have been explored - Necros built outside, but AFAIK the space can't be used to play in.

It's very time consuming to make the entire available space playable though, unless you just want a massive flat plain. I came close with one of my maps.

Unless you're making a mod going outside the limits probably isn't that useful. 
Func_bobbing 
Well, extras has water trains and a vertical only door type. 
Couldn't Find An Extras Link 
Maybe it's in here somewhere:

http://www.gamers.org/pub/idgames2/

It was made by p0x and has a load of toys to mess with, like emissions. 
Pox Mod 
knew I had the link in pholly.txt..,

http://quake.chaoticbox.com/?tab=poxgoodies 
And 
exploding barrels, stars, breakables, stairs, fountains, chaotic boxes. 
 
Maximum map size is a question of engine support. You can build stuff outside 4096x4096 and it'll show up in old engines, but you must keep the player away from the "line" or a massive HOM-like effect will occur.

If you require Darkplaces, FTE or something like it, then you can simply ignore the 4096x4096 restriction. However, you shouldn't go too far away from 0 0 0. You should be able to go 6000 units or so away from the center though without any noticeable side effects.

It is a pretty arbitrary restriction, really. 
 
Yeah I'm not making something that massive in geometry complexity or number of areas (it's very linear), just a lot of long or high areas.

Can hopefully post up a gameplay prototype soon, will really appriciate some feedback on the difficulty settings and such :) 
8192*8192*8192 Actually 
From -4096 to +4096 x/y/z 
 
right, although I said 6000 units out from 0 0 0 which is outside of that.

The vanilla quake limit is 4096 units outward from (0 0 0) in all directions, correct. 
 
plus, 8192x8192x8192 is only in relation to (0 0 0) - if you make a 6000x6000x6000 map (which technically fits inside the vanilla Quake boundaries) it can still break if it's not centered at (0 0 0). 
 
Well, the map is over entity limits so requires Fitz or Darkplaces, but I'll just keep within the geometry boundaries for simplicities sake then.

A question on difficulty settings by the way, what's the general feeling on power ups? At the moment the monster count is pretty much halved for easy, and the monsters that remain are weaker, but I'm afraid it might be a bit boring. Any feelings on keeping a fight similar in monster count but chucking in a quad + mega for easy? 
Do That :) 
Removing enemies is ok, but more resources is better I find. Obviously, need to balance the two, but the second one tends to get ignored.

And killy stuff like quads are always fun. 
 
maps with Quad + SSG or SNG = lots of fun 
 
Do both. Halve the monster count *and* give extra stuff on easy. Then on Hard, remove some health and ammo and add some monsters. 
Difficulty 
Don't be afraid that the map will be boring on easy, after all that's why it's easy - it might be boring for a skilled Quake player, but it won't be boring for a less skilled Quake player.

I always hate hard games, I played Quake since 96 and I used to be very good in 98-99 (playing pro in clans).

But even I do find sometimes that a lot of maps are actually hard even on easy ! Mappers needs to understand that they have 4 levels of difficulty.

You have nightmare - make this almost impossible to finish, so that only a very good player is able to finish it, throw there a lot of monsters, no health, etc. Make the player fight shambler with the axe, whatever it take.

Then you have hard - make this hard, but not impossible, people shouldn't run out of ammo and you shound't find yourself in a tiny run without covers fighting with vores.

Then it's normal - this should be challening, but not frustrating, it should be much easier than hard. Players should have good weapons, a decent suplly of ammo and enough health to not get into fight with low health.

And finally, you have easy. EASY - the name says it all - even a schoolgirl should be able to finish the level on easy, this is something that almost all mappers and game developers tend to forget - easy if for newbies, for people that don't even know the controls too well - you should have plenty of health there, powerfull ammo, powerups, red armor, everything.

Don't worry, you cannot make easy too easy. 
 
I'd say I'm a hardcore player, and I usually find most quake maps too easy, so I built the map designing fights with skill 2 in mind. I'm going back through it to fix each area up as you chaps suggest. By the sounds of it normal will actually be the difficulty to argue about...

Should have something for testing tomorrow anyhow :) 
Okay, Here She Is. 
It requires Quoth, and a limit removing engine (I've been using Fitzquake whilst making it).

It's mostly a bare shell, but I have at least thrown some lights in and used different textures so you can tell whats a floor or a wall :) Not interested in visual feedback right now, I want to nail the gameplay before I look into that.

It's a very linear, combat focused map, but I have attempted to vary the pacing and forms of combat throughout.

I've also attempted to support difficulty modes, but I'm not sure how well so please tell me what you think. Easy gets a lot of extra armour, megas, some powerups and extra geometry for some little jumping sections. Monster count: skill 0: 137, skill 1: 184, skill 2: 245

I'm hoping to make it the start of a series, which is why it's long but you don't get that much weaponry yet.

Sorry enough gabbling...


http://www.filefront.com/17282658/zqftest03s.bsp/ 
I Think 
You should aways play your own maps on hard, then scale back to make normal and easy. It's a rule of thumb, pretty generic, but it seems to work.

id1 has many failings, but I said I wouldn't talk about the other project.

Zealous - is this a release? I can't play for a few hours yet (fuck you Hypnos).

If it then make it a news post. If not, then good on you for wanting feedback. 
Missed 'is' There 
 
Oh God No It's Definately Not The Final Release :) 
I'm looking to finalise the gameplay before trying to make it pretty and release it.

I should have just posted it up in the Screenshots/betas thread :E 
 
true... I think on hard the first four rooms are nightmare!!! 
After Getting A Housemate Of Mine To Play Through It 
I think Normal and easy do need more toning down. The lightning trap area is the same on hard as normal which is pretty evil of me :E

Also causes trouble in the room with the two little computers because if you destroy them before killing the monsters you're kind of boned... so redesigning a bit. 
 
ZealousQuakeFan try it on Hard and map is a nightmare and boring... monsters coming everywhere... need a lot of monsters remove when you have a better version and if you want me to beta test just shoot... gameplay is my speciality ;) brushwork I suck but gameplay is my best! 
Doom 3 
Can I set Doom 3 lights to "projected" or "parallel" somehow in GTKRadiant 1.5?

Is there a method to set the light center point by dragging somehow, instead of having to enter the coordinates manually? Shows up as a green dot in my radiant, but apparently can't be dragged.

I discovered that the light volume can be drag-resized, which is cool.

Also, scaling all textures by 0.5 seems to be necessary to get the right size in relation to the player, why is that, and is it the normal way to do it?

I have to use Radiant, since the Linux version doesn't have the built-in editor. Yay. I can compile etc. though without problems and also have all the materials working.

It seems to be problematic to switch Radiant from one game to another on the fly. :-/

Anyone here have some Doom 3 mapping experience? I started messing around with it a couple months ago, and decided to get deeper into it now. 
 
And this is probably a stupid question, but why use caulk on surfaces that aren't drawn anyway? 
I Tried It Too 
I find Gtkradiant 1.5 to be much more convenient for the actual construction, mainly because of its camera controls and window management which are superior to D3edit and Q4edit in my view. Particularly the lack of a cascade feature makes the in-built editors extremely awkward to use on smaller sceens. However, ultimately it seems there's no way around them, as Gtkradiant doesn't display all resources, has no model/gui/etc viewer and seems to lack a few other vital features as well. 
 
So far it seems the actual brushwork isn't a problem, lighting is the thing that I'm having to relearn, although it's not really that different either. I was surprised it has no surface lights / flags. But OK, every light is a volume now. All right, grokked that. Would be nice if I was able to do spotlights though.

And gosh, do the testmaps look good ingame. The engine and the default materials are incredible.

I got a clean materials pakfile from the net, but it stopped working after I unpacked all of my pk4s - I had to do that because RoE wasn't loading some files for lowercase reasons (linux).

I should probably get one of those prefab collections as well. 
D3 
0.5 is the default tex size. all the textures were made double sized, like q3 before it.

as for caulk, the most straightforward uses of caulk are for brushwork behind patches (like curving walls and such) because patches don't seal the world and also to create box rooms which you can place a mapobject room inside.
most of the base maps in d3 have examples of the first reason (patches) and the hell maps are almost entirely made out of mapobjects. 
 
Ah, OK. That makes sense.

Apparently DarkRadiant has the light editing functions added and also runs under Linux. I might have to try that.

I never made a Q3 map, I don't even own it. :-E 
Darkradiant 
This looks very good. Cheers for mentioning it!
Will try if it can be set up for Q4, too. 
Darkradiant 
Looks a good bit o' neat it does. Now I REALLY want to solve my Doom 3 problems so I can start mappins for it. 
 
Too bad DR doesn't support Quake :-/

The clean materials pack is very useful, it removes all the broken materials / repairs them to a large degree. Pretty much mandatory. Doesn't work with RoE though.

Now to find out how to set up one of those sentry bots... and spawn some imps. >:-)

Doom3 speedmapping?

http://kneedeepinthedoomed.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/unidentified.jpg

Tossing around with something Enpro-like. So much easier to make pipes in Doom3 than in Quake. 
 
if you're looking for textures, lunaran made a great set called strombine (that works in d3 once you swap the material commands to d3 equivalents): http://www.lunaran.com/page.php?id=8

has some nice concretes and metals. 
 
Thanks for the link. It looks like there's some good stuff there. I'm just familiarizing myself with the stock textures atm - there's quite a lot of them. 
 
Congrats gb, you made a room that looks like any other Doom3/Quake4 related room. 
Indeed 
How dare you not make the most original architecture ever in a game engine you're working with for the first time??? 
 
Luke(gb) you have the force, you are just in the wrong path 
 
It looks like Doom 3? Good, that was kinda my goal :-P 
Negke: 
It looks like a combination of tools is the way to go with Doom 3, ie. build the basic geometry and place the basic lights and entities in GTKRadiant or DarkRadiant, and use D3edit (under wine, if necessary) and Blender etc. as needed and to fine tune stuff like spotlights, and GUIs etc., although like Quake, Doom's .map format is plain text and you should be able to use a text editor to create anything that's still missing. Learning how things like GUIs and movers work is the biggest hurdle, but there is a lot of info out there (doom3world.org, katsbits) and once you have grokked it you should be able to write the stuff you need.

I hope. :-E

Resources:

About lighting:

http://www.katsbits.com/tutorials/idtech/dynamic-lighting-principles.php

http://www.katsbits.com/tutorials/idtech/dynamic-outdoor-lighting-techniques.php

Clean Materials pack:

http://www.doom3world.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6025

(if the links are dead, I have it and can upload it)

Common prefabs (although you can probably rip stuff out of the original maps and use that as a starting point, as with handrails, consoles, movers and guis):

http://www.doom3world.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=14677

Hi-res replacement textures project (insane):

http://www.doom3world.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=23332

This last one is a reason to largely use the original textures, since your maps will then profit from replacement textures as time goes on.

Lots of the links at doom3world.org are dead, though. 
 
http://doom3-hr.com/Main_Eng.html

Hi-res texturing project site. 
 
You guys are going to make me re-install Doom 3, aren't you? :) 
 
on prefab rails:

doom3 is remarkably weird when it comes to prefabs. some areas have full mapobject (prefab) railing, some areas have railing completely made out of patches (more common) and some are a mix and match.

i would find it more easy to make railing in 3ds max (you can just use the spline tool and don't need to fiddle with ugly patches). thankfully, doomedit has a feature to export brushwork as an obj so you just need to import the the obj brushwork into your 3d editor, make your railing and export. 
 
Good tip necros. The prefabs are largely a bit questionable anyway, since you can make a lot of things yourself in a matter of minutes... I guess prefabs can be useful for things like shelves, ladder/handrail combinations, typical lifts, and maybe certain GUIs. The computer/console arrangements are probably also handy to have a prefab for, and just modify that, since they look a little time consuming to get exactly right. A lot of common things already come as entities, I saw.

People have been saying that you can also start making terrain out of patches, then export that and tweak / reduce polycount in a modelling suite, then re-import as a mapobject. 
 
more on prefabs,
a lot of computers and machines are prefabs and an even larger number are not. when i first started, i kept searching through all the models looking for things i'd seen and coming up empty.
in the 'objects' category of textures, you'll find textures that can be used (unsurprisingly) to make objects out of brushwork. a lot of the fancy consoles were built this way with patches and brushes.

about terrain,
i personally find it stupid to make terrain with patches if you've got access to a 3d editing suite. i have an old version of bryce (version 3) that i use as a fractal terrain generator. i export the greyscale heightmap bitmaps into 3ds max and use the 'displace' modifier on a plane that has been subdivided. this yields a terrain that can be modified for higher or lower resolution.
tbh, since i skipped the quake3 era of mapping and went straight from quake to d3, i never became attached to patches like those guys who did a lot of q3 mapping and i can't stand them at all. they are incredibly fiddly and texturing them is an absolute pain. i build everything out of models when i can. besides, building things out of models and then blocking out the area behind with caulk makes vising and portals much easier to handle because the surrounding brushwork is so simple. 
 
good advice, thank you. 
 
gb: Thanks. Do I just put the clean.pk4s in the base directory or do I have to rename/unpack them?

necros: Rails aren't the problem. But it kind of sucks that all interesting shapes (rocks, flesh, outsides) are made of meshes and can't be made inside the editor easily, like in Source games. 
Movings Models. 
Anyone know how I can make models from Quoth custom map objects move (like a body sliding along the floor or something)? I seem to recall seeing it somewhere :E 
 
negke: I think you should rename the clean materials pak to zzzwhatever.pk4, so it is loaded after all the normal paks (alphabetically sorted). It goes in the base folder.

I unpacked the models/ folder from one of the pakfiles because it has the mapobjects, and you'll probably want to unpack the sounds as well.

Individual files override things in pk4s. 
ZQF... 
Ne_tower by Necros was Quoth-based and had a body dragging. He should be able to fill you in. 
 
as for the knight drag, it's actually from when preach coded in model support. previously, you couldn't assign a model to a func_ because the game would complain about not having it precached.
there was supposed to be a func_train_point made specifically for assigning models, which is what i would have used, but that entity is actually broken, because it's still coded to set the func_train_point as SOLID_BSP which is not allowed with a .mdl (or external bsp afaik), so the dragging knight is actually a func_rotate_train (which is never solid).


http://celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=60352&start=36 
Dragging Body 
was made with a func_rotate_train.
preach added the ability to assign a model to (i think?) every entity.

unfortunately, he didn't allow for models on entities that have SOLID_BSP (ie: func_train) which is why you can't use a func_train for this.

it's been a year, so i don't really remember the specifics, but essentially, you set up a func_rotate_train + path_rotate entities exactly like you would if you were building a rotating train path, except you don't specify any rotation (but you could, if you wanted to-- the model will rotate just like it would if it was a bmodel).
once your rotating train entity and paths are set up, just set the 'model' key to the path to your custom model. finally, on your func_rotate_train, set the target field to 'null' (or anything that is not used). this is because the entity does not work unless target is set, but since we have the model directly on the train, we don't need to target anything.

you can also tie custom models (via mapobject_custom) to bmodel movers via rotating entity functionality as well. you could, for example, make a lift with torches attached to it. note that you'd need to use mapobject_custom instead of the normal torch entities because torch entities are made into static entities and static entities cannot move and they also automatically emit the fire sound which may not be good since they will be moving around.

as you know, you target a func_rotate_* entity to rotate_object entities in order for those to rotate.
you can also target any other entity in the game (including monsters!) and the rotating entity will also move them as well. for an example of this, check out sm156: http://celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=60375 for a map which uses this behaviour.
there are two boats that drive around with rocketeers stuck inside them with the rotate_train trick so they don't fall out as well as droles attached to a flying airplane type func_rotate_train.
i posted the map source for it in post #10 of the thread (or just get it here: http://necros.quaddicted.com/temp/sm156_necros_map.zip ). 
Note 
that when you attach mapobject_custom entities to a func_rotating_train, you can't rotate it. this is because entities attached to the rotater this way won't change their angles when they rotate, they only change their position.
so you'll have models that just slide around. 
And Triple Post 
if i had read the responses, i would have seen purple's post and wouldn't have had to retype all that. lol. ^_^ 
 
Heh so it is a bit more complex than I was hoping. I was trying to avoid rotating stuff as its such a pita :p
Still, the amount of fun I've been having playing with various triggers and relay sequences, it was kind of inevitable it would come in at some point...
Thanks for the posts though will try it out.

Nice to be reminded of the exact map I saw it in too :) 
Skip 
Is it possible to use some func_moving_object with skip textures applied to not-quite-all sides of it to simulate dragging a model? I recall levitating a Shambler once in one of my speedmaps using a similar technique. But, then again, my recollection isn't what it used to be :) 
 
well, if you are using hipnotic or quoth, you can just use func_movewall with func_rotate_train as they are fully invisible.
but i don't see why you couldn't put skip on a normal func_train. 
On SOLID_BSP And Custom Models 
I'll admit that at the time of release I knew that using custom models on func_ type entities was tantalizingly close. However, it was actually a side effect of code that guarded against unprecached models on the first frame (where it could be prevented). The main application I had in mind was to combine it with the newly added fixed-angle sprites for alpha transparencies, to make lifts with mesh floors or similar.

I probably could have added a 'NON_SOLID' flag to the func_ entities quite quickly, but I wanted to convince myself first that there was no way to automate the process. The uncertainty remained, so the idea was left unfinished.

As a quick straw poll: What would be the preferred implimentation?
� Create new classes for non-solid entities
� Add a flag which sets such entities non-solid
� Add the flag, and set it by default in the fgd file for _point classes
� Add a flag, and create a new wrapper class which sets the flag then calls the regular code(aka throw it all at the wall and see what sticks)
� Break all existing maps by making func_ non-solid with a flag to make them solid again

I also have this idea of fiddling with the modelindex so that you could create a BSP hull model to make it solid and still have another model visible using just one entity, if I can just sort out the entity issues. That might change the whole plan... 
 
well, my first instinct is that _point versions should automatically be SOLID_NOT because i was surprised when the func_train_point failed with a model. the thing is this would be an inconsistent behaviour because things like trigger_*_point MUST be SOLID_TRIGGER.

ideally, it would be better to just make a func_train_entity instead of having to abuse func_rotate_train. oh and i'd also update the hipnotic rotation code to take entity angles into account when being targetted by rotaters. (possibly with a flag to toggle that behaviour). 
The _point Of It All 
The _point versions are supposed to be exactly identical to the regular version, so much so that they even strip the classname of the _point extension. They only exist because of limitations in worldcraft which prevent creation of a point entity with the classname of a solid one. I'm pretty sure changing them now would break maps. 
Negke 
I don't see why you couldn't make rocks in Doom 3 the same way you do in Quake.

When you're finished, turn the entire terrain into a func_static and turn the simple room around it into caulk.

For parts that the player can't interact with, there is some key that lets you make the func_static nonsolid which supposedly saves RAM because no clipmodel is needed (I think).

You can then export the stuff (obj) and tweak it in Blender all you want, but for rough terrain, just to get the rough outline and scale, I don't see why you wouldn't want to use triangles or patches. Just to approximate it in the editor and get a feel for it.

You asked me to share my expert doom 3 mapping knowledge (lol) so here is other random stuff I found out while mapping:

- Shaderparm7 is used to set green/red lights on the door frame models. 0 is red, 1 is green.

- I ripped the frame and door models from id maps and tweaked them to my needs. All the doors are models as far as I can see, so are the matching frames, all nicely on the grid and on the Z point. The glass inside some func_doors is a func_static hooked up to the func_door with the "bind" key, like "bind" "door1". This makes the glass follow the door's movement in a master/slave way.

- Like Necros said, two ways to make consoles. a) models (in the mapmodels/com folder I think, look at the communications map - com1 or similar); b) brushes for the straight parts, patches for curves, small brushes for the guis.

- GUIs: For the model consoles, keys gui1, gui2 and so forth point to the gui files... for handmade guis, simple patch mesh turned into a func_static with common/entitygui texture and placed roughly 1 unit in front of the physical screen, can target stuff it should activate and "gui" points to the gui file like guis/comm1/sentrybot.gui is the panel that says "Activate sentry", for example. There are a lot of those.

- Mapmodels can have different skins; for example, skmachines/skcube.lwo can have "skin" set to skins/skcubedirtred to create the red version of that thing.

- Sounds are placed in maps using the speaker entity.

- Glass is simply a material.

- Two ways to make sky: a) like in Quake, slap one of the sky textures on brushes and b) portal sky, still looking into this last one.

- Lights; brightness results from the size of the light volume, as well as the color, where white is full brightness. You can assign textures to a light source, such as "texture" "lights/xray02".

- Entities under "movable" are physics objects, these drop to floor automatically. So do monsters, but not weapons for example. You need to place the weapons and ammo in the position you want them to appear.

- Decals are put on simple patch meshes of the desired size and shape and placed roughly 1 unit above the surface.

- Textures can be resized pretty freely without looking bad, so you don't have to build gui screens or decals at a certain size. Rather click "fit" in the surface inspector.

- The scale of everything is comparable to Quake, so is step height etc.

- You can load different mapmodels by creating a func_static and choosing models/mapobjects/whatever.lwo (Radiant will pop up a file browser).

I'd be interested to exchange testmaps and knowledge, hit me up on irc maybe.

http://kneedeepinthedoomed.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/sotox2.jpg

http://kneedeepinthedoomed.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/sotox3.jpg 
On SOLID_BSP And Custom Models 
My knowledge of Quake C is zero and I'm still learning the ropes entities wise, but for the kind of stuff I'm thinking of doing a func_train_model kind of entity would be great :E

For stuff like making it rotate or whatever though I'd wouldn't know what to suggest, I don't know what the technical limitations and such are really. 
Scripting In Doom 3 
A map can have a script assigned whose main() function is executed at level load. Scripts can directly address func_movers for example by their name. Some GUIs (shutters gui for example) can execute functions from the script when clicked (called via shaderparmX, usually documented in the GUI script itself).

It's a lot like QuakeC. Tutorial worth reading:

http://www.doom3world.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3144 
.mdl In Map 
Guys, quick question:

In Q3 I saw .md3 player models in maps as statues. I've tried to put a knight.mdl in a Q1 map but it doesn't appear because I basicly put in a monster_knight with the editor and then replaced that with knight.mdl in notepad. But (ofcourse) that doesn't work. So how do I tell the engine to just put in the .mdl file?

Also: what if I create a custom .mdl and want that to appear in a map? Ofcourse I'd need a similar line of code (whatever it is) and aside from that, would it then be enough to tell players to put the .mdl in id1/progs folder? 
You Could Use The Func_illusionary Hack 
i forget how that works but you could find it in the teaching old progs new tricks thread.
you can use this for models that are already used in the game.
afaik, it is impossible to use custom models unless you REPLACE a stock model with a custom one. at that point, you should make your own mod because it is unrealistic to ask a player to overwrite a stock model with a custom one and then delete when they're done playing your map. 
Func_illusionary 
Thanks. That reminds of wanting to create non-solid snow. Isn't the Func_illusionary used to make a brush non-solid? I suppose that would do the snow trick.

And ofcourse, I'd never ask anyone to overwrite anything. Ideally, you could just put the new.mdl into a pak file or in id1/progs and the engine would just always check that progs folder if the map file dictates it. But I guess it's too easy to think that way :) In Q3, you can just add all your stuff into a pak file, whether it's models, textures, sounds, or whatever. 
Models 
The difficulty is not so much that quake doesn't offer pak files and things to prevent you overwriting somebody else's models. The standard quake progs doesn't offer any way to specify a model to precache from the bsp file. So the only conceivable way of loading a custom model is by using one of the existing filenames, which would of course overwrite something.

The suggestion is not meant to be a serious on(I think), so you need a modified progs.dat in order to load ANY custom model sensibly. By that point you need your own mod directory and there is no danger of overwriting other's files. Unless you decide to use somebody else's mod which supports custom models, in which case conflicts may need to be considered. 
Well.... 
Thanks for the answer. The problem is that I want to make a deathmatch level that people can download automatically from the FFA server. So a mod is out of the question. I guess that's not possible then... 
Pak File Based Engine Feature 
A thought I had after replying there...

Problem: Map releases that take advantage of a mapping-centric mod like remakequake or quoth may have other custom resources outside of the traditional bsp files, for example custom sounds, models and skyboxes. The pak file sounds like a great way to distribute all of these things without risk of dozens of file conflicts. However, the system of loading consecutive pakN.pak files means that users have to jump through renaming hoops to pop the new map at the top of the list and risk clobbering a custom map when a patch for the base mod comes around.

Proposal: add a "-pak name" switch to engines. This would place the named pak file at the top of the search path for any files, allowing overriding of all models as well as supplying the location of new files.

Players using an engine with this feature would be able to leave maps distributed as pak files with an identifiable name in the directory, and load straight from them as they wished. Older engines would not be left out, although they would have to rename the pak they wanted to use to pakN.pak.

It might sound like this adds bloat to a command line that already needs -game and +map specifiers. Correctly designed mods could eliminate this though, by ensuring that quake.rc calls autorun.cfg, a config file with a dummy implimentation in the mod's pak files. Loaded pak files could then override this with their own autorun.cfg - containing a command to load the (first) map in the pak.

(Custom map paks overriding quake.rc directly should be avoided, since that file may be updated by future patches to the mod. Supplying the autorun.cfg is basically saying "this one is ours, and that one is yours".)

Extension: The command line could accept "manifest" text files listing a collection of paks rather than a single pak. However, this might be overkill, and it certainly should be in addition to rather than instead of the single pak loading system. 
Preach: 
for quoth at least, fitzquake and aguirre's engines have a -quoth switch that works the same as -hipnotic and -rogue, so you can effectively load your own mod on top of quoth.

Darkplaces does even better and has the ability to specify multiple gamedirs, so mods can mod mods ad infinitum. 
Thread Screw Texture 
I'm working on a map that will use only the original Quake textures. I want to apply a texture to a cylinder (actually it's an hexagonal prism) that will make the cylinder look like a screw. Something like in this image : http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/78/Screw_bolt.png

Any ideas what texture I might use ? (cropped, rotated, etc) - just to get that effect. 
 
any texture with ribs -- then just rotate each face the same amount and slide them around until they line up. You might have to adjust rotation to get them to line up all the way around. 
Wow 
Wow, that was fast :)

Thanks metlslime.

Yes, that's what I was thinking about, I need something like this : http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1111/1069643021_01b41ff384_o.jpg

But how to get it from standard Quake textures ?
I searched the metal textures, I didn't see anything suitables, everything is too flat or with "bubbles" 
Paking It In 
Yeah, metlslime, I had them in mind before I posted. I was trying to come up with something inbetween the effective but hardcoded -quoth switch and the overly elaborate darkplaces stuff. 
 
Super Uber Mega Cool 
necros, that's an impressive piece of work. But I cannot do my "screws" from polys for 2 reasons :
-the screw is quite small, it's smaller than a shotgun bullet
-I have a lot of screws and I'm very near to 32k marksurfaces limit (I went beyond this limit, but I deleted some rooms and now I'm back to about 30k)

Anyway, that screenshot looks awesome, does it move ? Any chance to see the full map ? :) 
Oh Shi--- 
now make a worm that's missing chunks from the threads, and wheels that are missing teeth to go with it! 
Raverx 
ah ok. i only posted that because i originally tried to make the worm gear out of textures too. but i swapped to a model because the spur gears looked funny meshing with a texture.

you could make a screw model though, that was just 6 sided (plus top and bottom, so ~20 tris?). it would make texturing the thread easier on a model skin maybe?

anyway, yeah, that worm gear is part of a new map/mod i'm working on. it's taking forever though, so no promises on release dates.

also, can i lobby for more lightmaps in quakespasm? maybe around 512 lightmaps or 1024? :D i built this whole terrain mountain as a sort of 'brush skybox' but had to remove it because i ran out of lightmaps, lol.

i think fitzquake's (and by extension, it's variants) current bumped limits could use some normalization.
for example, static entities has been increased, but ambient sounds has not, so you can add more torches than ambient sound slots which effectively acts as an artificial static entity limit.
or in this map i mentioned, it's possible to be under the faces/marksurface/vertex/clipnode limit, but run out of lightmaps.

now make a worm that's missing chunks from the threads, and wheels that are missing teeth to go with it!

maybe cause it's a lazy sunday afternooon, but i don't get it. what's good about gears with missing teeth? wouldn't they just stop working when they get to the broken part?
unless you mean like some sort of puzzle? 
Overlapping Brushes 
subject: overlapping brushes

I know you shouldn't have those, but what about water? If I want to flood a building with water, it looks bad when I cut the water around pillars etc, cause you'll see those cuts in the moving water texture...

And architecture partly covered in snow? What is the best approach when you want one brush (snow or water) to partly cover up other brushes? 
 
What's wrong with overlapping brushes? 
 
I know you shouldn't have those

Wrong. 
 
water will be cut pretty badly no matter what method you use, so i tend to just cover up areas with a single water brush.

if you are using fitzquake, make sure you use r_oldwater 0. this makes the engine use a much better looking water. 
Overlapping 
I thought you increase the chance of having Z-fighting (flickering) if one brush is contained in another brush (overlap).

Another reason I've read about is longer rendering times when you overlap brushes...

On top of this, I've seen multiple good mappers stressing NEVER to overlap brushes, including Pingu who stated in an interview to work neatly and that there's not a single overlapping brush in A2: Return To Atlantis.

I'm not pretending to know anything, but I do know what I've read. Kind of strange how people here say it's not bad to overlap brushes... Now I'm confused.

And Necros: thanks for the tip. Although that doesn't help people who play my map and use another engine ofcourse :)

BTW: are detail brushes used in Q1 (vs structural)? I'm using BSP Quake Editor right now, and there is an option to 'add detail' or 'remove detail' but after I selected and added the detail, it's not reported in the 'map info' (detail brushes: 0). I'll check in another editor as well.

I've read that if you got a lot of stuff in a room (like a bunch of candleholders, charis, tombstones, etc), it's best to turn those into detail brushes and let the main brushes that are suppoed to block Line Of Sight be structural... 
 
i don't know why, but overlapping brushes will cause zfighting in newer engines like q3 and d3. in quake, qbsp will manage to remove overlapping WORLD brushes without any issues. (overlapping func_ or other visible bmodels WILL cause zfighting with other bmodels or the world).
afaik, it doesn't cause any problems once the bsp is in the engine.

i'm not sure where we are atm concerning the compiling aspect of overlapping brushes. i don't overlap because i like to work clean, but it's just personal preference. 
Thanks 
OK thanks necros. You have an alarm going off when there's a new post? You seem to be on top of things :)

Is there anyone who can comment on the Detail/Structural question pls? 
No Detail Brushes In Q1... 
Change brush groups into func_walls or func_illusionaries to avoid breaking up surfaces, or float them 1 pixel off the floor/wall. 
And... 
Overlapping brushes are ok, especially for weird off-angle arches and such. 
Natural Looking Terrain 
Anyone got any tips/tutorials/techniques for creating the best rocky/uneven terrain in Quake 1 bsp? :E 
Multiple Buttons To Trigger A Door 
Can anyone tell me what kind of triggers connections i have to do in order to make 4 buttons to trigger a door ? like if all are ON then the door should open .. if 1 is OFF the door shouldnt open (logical "AND" condition) i use the Quake 3 engine (GTK Radiant). Thanks in advance :) 
 
Create a Trigger_Counter (with a name of course :) )that activates at 4, and make it's target the door. Make each button target the counter, and make each button's reset time -1 so a single button can only be used once. 
@ Generic 
OK thanks that explains why setting detail doesn't work in BSP or Radiant. I guess the option is in the editors for Quake2 and higher.

So when I got a cemetery full of fancy gravestones, I make the gravestones funk_walls or func_illusionaries. The downside of this seems that the func_walls/illusionaries don't cast shadows... I've read you can built a simple solid brush in them to cast shadows.. but I wonder if I can just copy the complex/detailed architecture, duplicate it and turn it into invisible brushes that will speed things up and DO cast shadows... For instance, here's a tutorial once from a guy who used a sky brush to cast a Quake logo shadow on the ground...but I can't duplicate it:
http://bspquakeeditor.com/q1tutor/q_lights.html 
ZealousQuakeFan 
IMO the best way to do terrain in Quake1 bsp is to use triangular prisms. I use ones with a depth of 64 units. You just lay the triangles out as a mesh, then move the corners up or down to make a nice uneven surface.

Also - ALWAYS overlap brushes in Quake1 maps. I used to think it was bad, but it turns out that its actually one way of making sure an area is sealed, for starters.

And you dont get in-game z-fighting. But if you get z-fighting in your editor, the newest brush will win. After you have compiled the map, any parts of a newer brush which were visible in your editor will be visible in the bsp. But they wont flicker. 
Zfighting 
Does z-fighting actually happen (in advanced engines) into brushes that intersect each-other, without any coplanar face? Such as overlapping perpendicular walls as generated by some hollowing commands in some editors... 
"Multiple Buttons To Trigger A Door" 
Man I shouldn't post at 3 in the morning, didn't see you were referring to quake 3, so ignore me :E 
 
hmm, okay. Off to give it a go :)

As I understand it then the main limitation with quake 1 BSP is that if a square face is twisted across where the polygon seam would be it just breaks? Like 3D modelling if you couldn't flip edges...? 
Door Opened By Multi Buttons 
I quote a recent post :

Can anyone tell me what kind of triggers connections i have to do in order to make 4 buttons to trigger a door ? like if all are ON then the door should open .. if 1 is OFF the door shouldnt open (logical "AND" condition) i use the Quake 3 engine (GTK Radiant). Thanks in advance :)

I want to do the same thing in Quake 1, but a little different. The door should open at a combination of opened and closed buttons - some sort of cippher :)

Can that be done ?

Let's say you have 4 buttons - all closed. You push one - it remains open until you push it again - same for all. The door should open only if button 1 is opened, button 2 is closed, 3 closed, 4 opened (an example). 
It Can 
But without new code it's a bit fiddly to set up.

Basically, you have a hidden tunnel somewhere outside the map which has four doors in it, a shootable button and a nail shooter.

The player never goes into the tunnel - you're just using it to set up a logic gate.

The four doors are controlled by your four buttons, and they're all 'toggle' so that the buttons can turn them to on or off states.

The button inside the tunnel is shootable (health 1) and is behind all the doors.

The spike shooter is at the opposite end, and just shoots forever.

The idea is that if the doors are in the right places then they'll allow a nail to go from the spike shooter into the shootable button, which triggers your event.

Problem is, there's no real way to show when a button is on/off - which is a must for the game play not to be confusing and frustrating. 
Err 
Also - ALWAYS overlap brushes in Quake1 maps.

ignore this 
 
Problem is, there's no real way to show when a button is on/off - which is a must for the game play not to be confusing and frustrating.

How about creating a little "indicator light" above the button; a func_door with a fullbright texture, that appears/disappears from inside another brush to indicate state. You can build a nice frame/socket around it so it looks like some kind of light fixture or computer terminal. 
Re: Multiple Buttons To Trigger A Door 
Ok seems silly but i just found the solution for my problem :D seems silly but it works :

for only 2 buttons to trigger the Door i did this:
2 func_button each of them triggers a shooter_plasma which shots to a door(1). that door(1) opens and behind it there is another door(2) that opens my Door(3) .. that way i can have my Door(2) opened when both doors (1 AND 2) are opened
(some images for better understanding http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/7038/multipletriggersand1.jpg http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/9168/multipletriggersand2.jpg )
is there an easier way ? 
Hmm 
Could you not just make the buttons only trigger once (wait value of -1 iirc) and a trigger_counter with a count value of 2? 
Func_door Indicactors 
That'll do nicely. 
Re: Hmmm 
in gtk radiant 1.5 for quake 3 engine i tried trigger_counter but it doesn't work aand if i put wait the value -1 it will do exactly what the manaul sais : "wait : number of seconds button stays pressed (default 1, -1 = return immediately)." 
Rotating Entities... 
So I'm dabbling with the dark arts and trying to make some rotating stuff, and I've got a nice door opening and closing but it's insanely jittery, as though the axis of rotation is bouncing up and down... Any idea what I've done wrong? :E 
 
sounds like one of two things:

you did not target an info_rotate with your rotate_object

or

your compiler does not support rotating entities (very unlikely at it would have to be a compiler made before the hipnotic mission pack came out).

so make sure you add in an info_rotate that should be placed somewhere in the center of your rotating brushes.
next, add a 'targetname' to it.
now, for all the rotate_objects applicable, add a 'target' that points to that info_rotate.