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Mark V - Release 1.00
http://quakeone.com/markv/

* Nehahra support -- better and deeper link
* Mirror support, "mirror_" textures. video
* Quaddicted install via console (i.e. "install travail")
* Full external texture support DP naming convention
* Enhanced dev tools texturepointer video inspector video
* IPv6 support, enhanced server capabilities
* Enhance co-operative play (excels at this!)
* Software renderer version (WinQuake)
* "Find" information command (ex. type "find sky")

Thanks to the beta testers! NightFright, fifth, spy, gunter, pulsar, johnny law, dwere, qmaster, mfx, icaro, kinn, adib, onetruepurple, railmccoy

And thanks to the other developers who actively provided advice or assistance: Spike (!), mh, ericw, metlslime and the sw guys: mankrip and qbism.

/Mac version is not current yet ...; Linux will happen sometime in 2017
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Why Is Everyone Saying Android Doesn't Natively Support Vorbis? 
I'm fairly certain that Android has supported Vorbis since 2008, so why is everyone saying that Android doesn't support it natively? What's the big issue with Vorbis support anyways?

https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2008/02/android-sdk-m5-rc14-now-available.html

I also find it strange that people say that Vorbis is not used in the game industry at all and that it's 'obscure,' yet I can name 5 games off the top of my head that use Vorbis? 
 
I don't recall the claim being that Android doesn't supports oggs. The point is that hardware decoding of mp3 is ubiquitous, oggs must be software-decoded and that make a very appreciable difference to both performance and battery life. "Everything is software" is cutesy in the desktop space but it cuts no ice in mobile. 
 
Use Ctrl + F and search for OGG and you'll eventually find claims that Android doesn't support Vorbis.

And what exactly does Mark V have to do with mobile though? I still see no reason to purposely disable Vorbis support for the desktop if Mark V is used on mobile devices, especially when some people have issues with Mark V loading MP3s. 
#2221 
About that: I still would like get an answer on mp3 playback in the Quakedroid channel. Just look at my most recent post over there. 
 
When I was mentioning that Android wouldn't play OGG, I was only mistakenly repeating what Baker seemed to say in #2169 where he used the word "impossible." But then I found that Android CAN natively play OGG, and I posted about it over in the QuakeDroid thread.
I read something online saying that ringtones in MP3 format do not loop in Android, but ringtones in OGG format do loop (if a certain flag is set in the file), so I assume that's why Google uses OGG format ringtones for apps like Hangouts (and other built-in alarms and ringtones you will find in Android).



brassbite, I don't think music support has been added to QuakeDroid yet. Like you, I could not get an MP3 to play in the game. 
Well Thats A Bummer 
Why are we even discussing adding ogg support when the fucking game can't even play any music at this point? 
 
QuakeDroid played the OST just fine for me... 
 
So... i'm trying to compile the last version of markV
(this one http://quakeone.com/markv/builds/mark_v_1099_revision_4_source.rar )

and i'm getting the following error:
fatal error C1083: Cannot open include file: 'windows.h': No such file or directory

what am i doing wrong? :/ 
 
QuakeDroid played the OST just fine for me...

Really??

Well, then I don't know what the deal is. I (and brassbite) can't seem to get the MP3s to play in QuakeDroid. We need word from Baker about this.

(And I think we're getting some cross-posting confusion between QuakeDroid and Mark V.) 
JFC Baker Has Repeatedly Said Ogg Wont Be Supported 
Stop banging on about it for gods sake. 
^^^^^IAWTP 
 
 
Gunter's mp3 problem will be solved in the Christmas update (this isn't new, I eventually gave up trying to communicate this to gunter).

Spike maybe a year ago told me about something neat he uses in FTE that will work even on Gunter's old WinXP computer just fine.

I'll add a cvar mp3_decode_fte and have it be a third click option in "cd/mp3 music on|off".

Gunter will end up being very happy and pleased.

@brassbite - I answered your question in the QuakeDroid thread (so anyone else looking for the answer can find it more easily).

@dumptruck - You wouldn't let me get the Trinity or the other 2 artifacts. And made me wait 10 seconds for the hammer. ;-)

@johnny - Yeah, just XBox controllers support. Microsoft controllers are actually backwards compatible to Windows 98 (!!) If you are super intent on using a Steam controller, find the release post and use the "alternate" SDL2 build! Your Steam controller *should* work with that. DirectX Mark V is not SDL2, so doesn't have the rich and deep controller support that they put into SDL2 (unless I steal it and graft it in, which eventually I will probably do in the future ... SDL2 is a very nice and freedom granting license .. a good reason to support SDL2)

@hipnotic - Yeah, it uses the first controller it finds. But in the Christmas version I'll add a way to set it to use "controller #2".

@tribal - I compile with Visual Studio C++ Express 2008 get it plus Service Pack 1. With that version, you open Mark V .vcproj and click "Build" --> BANG! It compiles.

So Tribal, I hope you can get it to compile. With the same Visual Studio, should be easy enough. There is no such thing as "current Visual Studio" because now they don't really do "versions" so I imagine they break things every 6 months or so because Microsoft is really good at that now.

/Resuming sustained months long inactivity ... 
@Baker 
@dumptruck - You wouldn't let me get the Trinity or the other 2 artifacts. And made me wait 10 seconds for the hammer. ;-)

I'm guessing you were probably messing around in the menus before starting the map. The sound files seemed to get out of sync with the triggers when I did that. Disconnect, set your settings and then reload. I tested the map in Mark V extensively and prefer it to QS. :) Should be a solid experience. 
I Wood've Bear With Baker 
a lotsa bears

beers

20/30 buttles 
Hot Durmit 
 
@Barker 
Thank you for the links, but i couldn't install VS C++ 2008 :P

I download other versions of the same program and none of them install... i searched on google and it seems there's something worng with my framework NET 3.5 or something like that... i'll try to fix it on the weekend :/

Thanks again =D

And i agree with dumptrunk, i prefer MarkV to Quakespasm... i like the HUD that doesn't cover the weapon, the sound and music are better, the colors have more saturation, it seems to me that the explosions have more particles, i don't know, but the classic explosions looks more powerfull in MarkV) and the special effects like the shambler's lightning, tarbaby's explosion and the fact that you let me decide which special effect i want turn on or off is awesome =D

Thank you one more time XD 
 
Hi, it' me again =D

I think i found a bug :P

The tarbaby/spawn explosions doesn't change when you set to 0 or 1... it's the old/same explosion :(

i miss that pretty purple circular explosion from QMB 
Is WAV Playback Supported For Music? 
Just wondering. 
Wav Is Supported In Quakespasm 
...but can't confirm if it works in Mark V here at work. I wouldn't be surprised because uncompressed formats are generally easier to support and it's not OGG. (LOL) 
 
Spike has stated that .wav soundtracks is a bad idea.

Take an 4MB mp3 file and convert it to wav and watch it become 75 MB to 95 MB to 120 MB (it's kind of shocking -- you should try it and see for yourself.)

Spike said that the load times, the storage space, disk access time, memory usage make .wav "taxing" and undesirable for music play.

Anyway, that's what Spike said once upon a time when such a topic came up. 
Baker 
That last post re: OGG was not a dig. I was LOLing at someone else. 
 
Gunter is very helpful and often able to make interesting observations that most people wouldn't notice. He plays co-operative all the time, knows QuakeC in a way comparable to Preach. Gunter isn't a bad guy, just passionate.

I think everyone occasionally gets passionate about something. Sleepwalker once had a guy named Dequer in the TrenchBroom thread who was "very passionate" about certain topics.

I think it is cool there are people still passionate about Quake.

Fun fact: Gunter once wrote a QuakeC rollercoaster ride. I kid you not! 
Rollercoaster? 
Just like this thread!!!!

That's a amazing. I do think Gunter's passion for Mark V has made it better. There's no one who is as vocal or who tests it more than he! GG Gunter. 
 
WAV memory usage is smaller than most compressed formats if it's streamed from the drive instead of being fully loaded. But the other negative aspects still apply. 
 
Gunter made a whole playground entirely in QuakeC where you collected "Quaders" to use the games and rides, which included said rollercoaster, a trampoline, and something else. The arcade games were tetris and pac man all done using Quake's special characters font. Along with little things you can interact with like sticking your hand down an ogres pants for a quader. All this was used as a hub for connecting to other popular servers at the time.

Sorry I know it isn't related to the topic, but it had to be mentioned. 
Also A Zombie Wall Climb 
 
 
Yes, The Hub mod. I remember long ago Baker had mentioned an idea about a Quake server that would act as a hub for connecting to other servers and maps, so I went nuts with QuakeC to see what I could come up with. Ok, well, all my QuakeC is kind of nuts. I probably don't actually know QuakeC as well as a lot of other coders, but I can hack code like a crazy mofo.

Using lots of stuffcmds I had all the various exits around the Start map linking to all the various active servers at the time. Just touching an exit would test the server and give you a report about what map and players were connected there, and if you sat in the exit for 5 seconds you would connect to the other server.

Of course I made the whole map like an amusement park (making new floors and walls just using QuakeC to copy entities), with lots of things to do....

Here was n old thread on Quakeone: http://quakeone.com/forum/quake-talk/quake-central/1100-the-hub-two-thumbs-up

It runs as its own server, so I can't really get it up and running since I don't host servers. And it's more of a curiosity now anyway, since there are so few active servers these days, so it kind of lost it's initial purpose.

Though I have considered hacking the hub stuff into FvF Start map... but that would require me to be a lot less lazy than I am.

Oh, and I have to note the arcade games in The Hub were taken (and modified) from code made by FrikkaC and MauveBib.




And yeah, I'm passionate about stuff when I'm right about stuff ;)

And yeah, I will be very happy and pleased if MP3 starts working well for my WinXP netbook, but it would still be right to support OGG, for maximum compatibility and ease of use (remember, some single player map packs contain OGG soundtracks...). 
 
Mark V is going to have a built-in Quake Injector with full blown graphical user interface + search, taking the existing "install" command and taking it to the logical final step.

The same way QuakeDroid downloads shareware or how the "install" command downloads from Quaddicted, Mark V can easily download an mp3 for the very few Quake mods (three? four?) with some non-mp3 sound track.

Besides, Nehahra has the soundtrack in the crazy .xm format which I plan to convert to mp3 to eliminate the crazy fmod.dll dependency in Nehahra.

I've had a blueprint in mind for ages.

These small things are easily handled and not even interesting conversation to me.

I also plan ahead: Mark V had Android/iPhone code in the source for 2 years before QuakeDroid or releasing compilable source for the iPhone version which predated QuakeDroid by a month, for instance.

Likewise, today's Mark V source code has jpeg support so the built-in Quake Injector will be able to download map screenshots from Quaddicted and use them immediately on-screen.

/Boring details 
Nehahra DLL 
I always hated the fmod.dll dependency of Nehahra. Getting rid of that is another step in perfecting the support of this mod. Not sure if a conversion from XM to MP3 resulted in a loss of quality, though. 
 
There are a number of items in the pipeline, often undiscussed.

Like changing the Effects menu item from [Classic | JoeQuake] to [Classic | JoeQuake | NPRQuake]. The current source code is reorganized to make this straightforward to implement (last year's source code was not).

Also: Making mh's work on "r_shadows 3" really kick some major ass by having the option to have shadows acknowledge brush model collision as a surface (i.e. e1m1 slime bridge) would be great. The framework for the feature is already written. 
 
WAV memory usage is smaller than most compressed formats if it's streamed from the drive instead of being fully loaded.
In a world where 8gb is standard that's not really a big deal.

Besides, disk access is still slower than memory access anyway, so streaming from a HD in order to save memory, in a case where saving memory would not even be a requirement, seems to be the wrong side of a tradeoff. 
 
disk is slower but you can cache ahead as much as you need. The most intense disk i/o is at map load time so streaming during gameplay would reduce that.

(note: I am not advocating giant wav files to replace mp3s) 
XM Conversion 
Btw I am curious if Baker manages to make a flawless XM to MP3 conversion of the Nehahra music once it's necessary. I tried today and some of the tracks have crackling noise after conversion, even after normalization. 
@nightfright 
How does this one sound to you? My initial attempt to convert had crackly sounds for this track.

I then meditated on it a little and the result was this ... which seems to be perfect.

Nehahra - neh5.mp3

Let me know. 
Mark V HD High Resolution Pack - June 16 2018 
Screenshots: Screenshot 1 | Screenshot 2 | Screenshot 3

Download: HD Pack - 128 MB and extract to c:/quake/hd

* High resolution textures (via qrp.quakeone.com)
* Modified JoeQuake menu to match Mark V.
* Conback and character set (via gfx.quakeworld.nu)
* .lits and transparent water .vis for Quake maps.

You may wish to set the following for best results ...

viewsize 110 // Hud to more Quakeworld appearance
scr_scaleauto 2 // "Auto Large"
qmb_active 1 // QMB effects instead of classic

Read more ...  
HD 
I'm not a fan of the look but I will check these out for educational purposes and I am a fan of Mark V. 
 
That type of look is popular in Quakeworld, DarkPlaces replacement textures users (Google up "Quake Epsilon" or "Quake HD" ... you might be surprised). and those who may have in the past really liked JoeQuake or Qrack (*).

There are also users who like high resolution textures because that have a large monitor and Quake textures don't look magnified on a large display because they lack the detail.

(Qrack: R00k doesn't seem like he is updating Qrack much these days. Qrack was popular for especially among those who liked playing original Threewave CTF online, and the last couple of years NetQuake multiplayer has declined quite a bit.)

I may in the future add some more options to support more fully the appearance of an ezQuake-looking HUD. 
 
its slowly evolving with some tweaks and feature
just not as many players any more so ive
ive been focusing on singleplayer functionality
but not dead but nothing to write home about
:D 
Trouble Since Windows 10 April Update 
My Windows 10 did the large April update, and since then Mark V has been super slow to start up, taking several seconds, whereas Quakespasm, for example, still loads almost instantly. Also, I'm not sure if it's related to the problem, but I tried playing dm4jam_ww, and without exception the game freezes when the Shambler's supposed to spawn at the beginning.

Has anyone else done the April update and had the above problems with Mark V afterwards?

For your information, if the engine freezes for you and you're unable to get the task manager window or the mouse pointer visible, I was able to do it with the following steps:

1. Press the WIN + TAB keys
2. Navigate to Mark V with the arrow keys
3. Press SHIFT + F10
4. Move the game to another desktop
5. Your primary desktop should become visible and controllable, where you can open up the task manager and shutdown Mark V. 
 
What I've observed is that the latest Mark V and latest Quakespasm both take a few seconds to start up now -- longer than I remember from before -- and that Mark V Winquake is still fast. 
 
I don't have issues starting up the engine but I get pretty poor performance. I've had slowdowns in id maps. Meanwhile my FPS doesn't dip like this in other source ports. Mark V WinQuake is all right but my PC has a hard time getting good performance out of regular Mark V. 
 
More Windows 10 updates weirding things up ...

Anyone else using Windows 10 have issues with the engine?

/Looks like an investigation is in order, but little surprised this didn't arise as an issue back in, say, April or May. 
@Baker 
Chiming in. Audio issues but I don't have access to that particular machine ATM. I thought it was my crappy hardware but then trying 1099 on an older Win7 laptop confirms there's likely an issue with Win10.

I will have access to another Win10 machine in a couple of days. Will report back ASAP. 
Not Sure Where To Ask This 
Is there a way to autoconcatenate demos? I never can do demos because I spam quicksave/quickload so often.

Am I admitting I play horribly...not really, but I love to save, do something stupidly crazy, probably die or fall to my doom, then quick load. I like to take huge risks, blast into a room, run around and get 50 baddies to follow me, trail vore balls through the lot, etc.

Is there a way to restart recording on the same demo file on quickload? 
Demo To Avi/mpeg 
Is there an engine with support to record demos direct to video format? 
Qmaster 
Mark V has a way to record a demo to avi. Search for capturedemo above.

Also cl_autodemo for automatic demo recording. But I have not played with it. cl_autodemo 1 for host_maxfps 72 and cl_autodemo 2 for framerates above that.

I know there were some very good demo tools designed for protocol 15 that have wonderful features. I need to go and research them tho. I killed those brain cells with beer long ago! They are all old and may still work. Keygrip was the craziest one. Had an editing UI and everything. I tried getting it to work last year without any luck.

There was one great tool that made a highlight reel from deathmatches. It would eliminate everything but the kills and you could adjust the time before and after.

I am SURE there was one that joined demos. Just have to find it. But probably no way would it work with newer protocols. :(

I have the same issue. I Quicksave a lot and when I am reviewing someone's work I have to go back and reload and start a new demo. 
 
also if you just want a video and don't need an actual demo file, you could use outside software like Fraps or the Windows "Game Bar" 
 
There is a command line tool called convdemo for protocol 15 at http://web.comhem.se/bjp/ that can concatenate demos (which may not be a lot of help since everyone uses protocol 666), but you could type "sv_protocol 15" in the console before playing and many maps probably still play with that on.

Mark V you can type "capturedemo demo1" in the console, the Mark V page has a codec that works fast and easy listed.

You can also do a .bat that looks like this and Mark V will exit after the capturedemo is completed.

c:/quake/mark_v.exe +capturedemo demo1
c:/quake/mark_v.exe +capturedemo demo2
c:/quake/mark_v.exe +capturedemo demo3

Mark V doesn't have a demo concat built into it.

Like dumptruck said, the "find" command finds about anything. 
 
Along the lines of what metlslime said, there are video tools that concat videos.

Probably easier to do that ... 
Oh Ok 
Drat...screen capture sucks though. Slows everything down. 
 
Quite a number of quake engines support video encoding one way or another. If you're intent on avoiding demos then my advice to you would be to avoid xvid. ffdshow should have an h264 encoder accessed via the x264 fourcc setting, but as that's patented I have no idea what americans should use instead for streamed video.

If you're okay with a demo, then try fte's capturedemo command. Its an offline offscreen demo capture process, so it'll run as fast as your hardware allows (iirc, dp also has some sort of offline capture, but it doesn't support 666 so w/e).

Which reminds me that I really ought to update fte's ffmpeg plugin in order to make use of nvenc etc properly, which should greatly reduce the overheads - if you've got an nvidia gpu (which should also be a way around patent issues). 
 
The supplied XVID codec on the Mark V has a few advantages that I have not been able to find in another free download:

1. It is rather fast. (WebM is way slower)
2. It doesn't come with adware.
3. It doesn't come with some other junkware.
4. It is easy to install.
5. It is known to work with the Windows video capture library that AVI capture Quake engines use.
6. Doesn't need a registered copy to encode.
7. It is known to work with the engine.
8. H.264 codecs seem to get overwritten by video apps installing their own special H.264 codec.
9. Doesn't do watermarks for unregistered versions.

For instance, I've found H.264 library and I did get it to work nice, but I had to do a lot of cmd.exe commands and might have had to run it as administrator --- too much to explain.

So I have a downloadable codec that is click, click, click to install.

/Anyway, the H.264 ones I found always seemed to have undesirable characteristics or junkware or put watermarks on the videos. And if it did work, the next video app might overwrite it with its own H.264 codec. Or so I recall. I myself would prefer a hassle-free H.264 codec without spyware or unwanted junk. 
Well Mostly 
I would just want to make normal demos under protocol 666 or 999 without changing my playstyle. :/ 
 
add "+cl_autodemo 1" to the command line or type it in the console before the map. It should do a demo every time you re-load from a save.

Then use something like Virtual Dub Mod (free) or some other video app to concatenate the videos together.

Another option is something like Bandicam and record the screen while you play. 
#2274 
That's cool! Because I often refrain of recording demos because of Saving/Loading. 
Mouse Troubles 
Lately I've been having an issue with mouse clicks occasionally not registering. I doubt that it's a problem with my mouse because I've tested extensively in a few other source ports and I never had issues there. 
OBS Local Recording? 
It's worked pretty flawless from my experience? And I even have an old PC(circa 2010 AMD.

You have plenty of options etc, why is this not mentioned? 
I Have Obs, Quality Is Horrid 
Thanks baker, I'll give it a whirl. 
@poorchop 
I play some Quake 3-4 times a week. Never experience mouse issues. And haven't seen any issues like posted in the thread.

I'll keep an open mind, though. 
 
It could be a Windows 10 thing. One of the updates within the past several months broke mouse look in the SDL 1 version of Quakespasm. I've used Mark V quite a bit but I only started noticing this mouse problem within the past week or so. Or maybe my mouse is failing but coincidentally only when using Mark V. 
 
I have a machine that I think now has all the updates for Windows 10.

Probably next week I'm going to see if I can experience any Windows 10 issues and see if I can locate a list of behavior changes for the "Spring Update".

Windows 10 updates are like a jar of random monkeys. Microsoft used to be good at compatibility and consistency. 
Uh...when? 
Well, Win7 has done me good for like 7 years so.

https://i.imgur.com/QOz79l2.png 
Baker 
Can you confirm the proper settings to play Mark V with a 144Mhz monitor?

My current config:

host_maxfps 144
vid_refresh 0

QS runs smooth as silk. It's clearly not working in Mark V 1099 and seems a bit stutter-y.

And yes I know 144 breaks physics. I just prefer playing this way. One thing to note: I use the same directory for QS and Mark V and switch between them often. Could it be a cvar I am missing? 
 
I don't have 144 hz monitor, so beyond:

* vid_vsync 0 + host_maxfps 288 (yes 288, not 144 for 144Hz) ... might get better results ..

Back when I did have a display with a higher refresh rate available, I don't recall it behaving any differently.

Does this alternate version of Mark V do 144 hz smoothly? SDL alt build. There may be something SDL is doing to smooth things, but this falls into the "hard to code for scenario one cannot test".

/Note to self: See if can locate a 144hz display. 
 
Also might need to manually set the refresh rate in Nvidia Control Panel to 144 when running Mark V or play with some settings there.

Mark V doesn't request a refresh rate.

(Because when Mark V first came out, it looked like 60 Hz was going to all displays, there weren't 144 Hz monitors and the only thing that supported changing refresh rates were CRTs and those were already dinosaurs.) 
Baker 
Don't forget to add Spike's QSS fix for high fps. 
@Baker 
The SDL version had no change.

Typo above I meant vid_vsync 0

Setting "Highest Available" in the nvidia control panel was the ticket. That was the only option available to me in the CP. Thank you.

I am going to try and get 1099r4 tested on my Windows 10 machine tomorrow to check some of the issues mentioned above since the Spring update. 
@dumptruck_ds 
Setting "Highest Available" in the nvidia control panel was the ticket.

That fixed the issue?

If so, when I do new version around Christmas I could have Mark V have a refresh rate cvar or command line param and just specify the refresh rate on startup.

Thanks for the feedback, very helpful. 
#2264 
Good idea. A way to implement it would be:

- If recording a demo, store its filename into the savegame;
- When loading a save, reload its corresponding demo;
- Search in the demo for the frame that corresponds to the current frame stored into the savegame;
- Delete all frames stored afterwards, and resume recording. This new recording could use a different filename to indicate that it's a new branch (like "mydemo.dem", "mydemo(1).dem", "mydemo(2).dem", "mydemo(1)(1).dem", etc.). 
Baker 
Yep that fixed it. Silky smooth now. 
Full Colors Maps 
Full color maps were briefly brought up in another thread.

Short Video: Full Color Maps

Map Download: halflife.bsp - 239 kb for anyone to try themselves in Mark V.

Will also work in FTE, DarkPlaces, several other engines. 
 
Full color what, exactly? Colored lighting + 16/32-bit textures? 
Textures Unbound From The Palette 
 
 
hlbsp has licensing issues from its toolchain, and the hull size issues makes it generally unusable for quake anyway.

besides, lit files and (same-size) replacements provide all the same advantages and with well-defined compat fallbacks, and without shamblers ending up half-inside walls, and retains overbrights, just with more files (unfortunately).

if really needed then the -bspxlit arg can be used to embed the lit files, and -notex can be used to force external/replacement textures using the same mechanism hlbsp uses for external textures (so should work in the same engines) including support for q1 or hl miptex from a texture wad. 
How To Make A Video In 45 Seconds Expending No Effort 
How To Make A Video In 45 Seconds Expending No Effort ...

0. Do once: Install XVID codec 11 MB. This isn't about the codec, this is about something that works quickly and doesn't come with ads/spyware.

1. Go to a map.
2. Type record thisdemo
3. Walk around for 30 seconds.
4. Type stop to end demo recording.
5. Type capturedemo thisdemo

Your are done. Where is thisdemo.avi? Type folder and it will be highlighted in Windows Explorer.

6. Optional: Drag and drop it on your YouTube page and upload it.

If you are in 640 x 480 windowed mode when typing capturedemo it will be faster than say fullscreen resolution @ 1400 x 900 because 640 x 480 has far less pixels to encode than 1400 x 900. 
 
"Anyone else using Windows 10 have issues with the engine? "

Not so much in MarkV; but QArack, and JoeQuake specifically take 10 to 15 seconds to initialize in win 10 for me. Where as both engines take under 5 seconds on my XP and win7 machines. Dunno. opengl 1.x emulation? 
@Baker 
I can confirm that startup on Windows 10 is extremely slow on my new tower. I have an Intel 7820 and 32Gbs of RAM. HD is a pretty decent raid from 10,000 RPM drives. Videocard is a Nivida GTX 780.

In Windows 7 - a much older machine startup is near instantaneous.

No audio issues as I have seen on my laptop thankfully.

Is there any way I can help observe/record the startup issue for you? 
@dumptruck 
1. Is it just the Direct X version?

2. Or is it also true for the WinQuake version also?

3. What about the SDL alternate build? download

It might help me triangulate in on something. 
@Baker 
I'll test this evening and post results. I probably should have done a proper test.

Also a question about Dx9 files you have linked? How do I determine if I need those? 
2x Post 
Sorry yes I was setting up TB2 and only played around with the DirectX version as well as QS and QSS. I'll copy over the SDL alternate and WinQuake versions this evening. 
 
> How do I determine if I need those?

Great question!

Mfx said he had the issue and said installing those files solved it, but I'm not seeing a description of the message other than "it didn't start up".

Posts 2106, 2109, 2110 -- "mfx - Thx, that download helped, works now." 
 
Yeah Mark V needs the DirectX 9 runtime support. I don't remember the error message but IIRC it's fairly obvious if that's why it's failing to start.

If you play other games on your computer there's a good chance you already have this installed. If not, it's harmless to install it. 
 
In the future, I may try to roll DX9 detection/installation into the installer form of the engine distribution.

There will of course always be the plain zips of the engine .exes. 
@Baker 
Report on Mark V Windows 10 delayed launch (and exit)

Mark V 1099r4 delay of 3-6 seconds launching and exit.

mark_v_sdl_gl_gcc - no delay
mark_v_winquake - no dleay
mark_v_winquake_gl - no delay

quakespasm .93.1 win64 - short delay launching and exiting (1-2 seconds)
quakespasm-spiked-win64 - short delay launching and exiting (1-2 seconds)

Mark V 1099r4 has the longest pause of all exes. 
@dumptruck 
So DirectX Mark V is 3-6 seconds slower starting/exiting. Quakespasm is 1-2 seconds slower starting/exiting.

But Mark V WinQuake, SDL and OpenGL are unaffected.

Trying to unravel that ...

It is possible that specifying a refresh rate on startup slows things down. Quakespasm does this. DirectX Mark V specifies a refresh rate that is the desktop default when requesting fullscreen mode. The Mark V WinQuake/SDL/OpenGL doesn't touch refresh rate.

If I am right ...

Does the following have a difference in start up times ...

a) c:/quake/mark_v.exe -window -width 800 - height 600 // DirectX
b) c:/quake/mark_v.exe -current // DirectX

If it relates to the refresh rate, according to the code it looks like in windowed mode that Mark V DirectX does not set a refresh rate, but for fullscreen mode it does.

/A guess. If this thought turns out not to lead anywhere and it may not, I have a couple of other thoughts but this best matches your test results ...

Let me know ... 
 
If a 6 second delay is a problem, my engine is fucked.

But yeah, it's always nice to eliminate unnecessary delays. 
 
A delay at startup does sound like it's changing the display mode for sure; that would certainly do it.

Some info on command-line params used and resolutions of the PCs being compared would help a little more here. 
Specs 
@baker I need to try this in windowed mode too. But I'll try what you posted above. Typically I stick to fullscreen.

One other thing that might help. Much of the time I am editing and using Necros' GUI to launch ericw's tools and in turn, MV. The tools compile quickly as expected, then there's the delay in launching MV. Then I review the compiled map. Now for whatever reason after I quit MV the cmd windows (which has been running in the bg as usual) stays up for about 3-4 seconds before closing.

I am 99% sure the delay in launching MV happens if I click a shortcut on the desktop without running any compilation so maybe unrelated?

@mh

Just remember this is Windows 10 now. My older machine is Win7 and had zero issues on start up and shut down with the same monitor and a very similar video card and same MV version. Also the same command line etc.

1920x1080 144Hz refresh forced by nvidia cp and that's my desktop res and refresh as well so I don't think it's mode switching.

I need to confirm but I'm pretty sure the delay happened before I set the refresh in nvidia to 144Hz

parms are +developer 1 and +gl_clear 1 +load map <map I am editing> (those were the same on other systems) 
 
It does seem to take a while to load for me too. QS is pretty instant 
 
Much of the time I am editing and using Necros' GUI to launch ericw's tools and in turn, MV.

Windows programs inherits the CPU affinity and the process priority of the process that launches them. If the launcher is e.g. a single-threaded 32-bit program running at low priority, maybe Mark V needs some extra time to adjust its process' properties. Just a guess. 
@Baker 
Home and testing this now. We're getting somewhere.

Does the following have a difference in start up times ...

a) c:/quake/mark_v.exe -window -width 800 - height 600 // DirectX
b) c:/quake/mark_v.exe -current // DirectX


No delay on the windowed setting above! Fires right up. Also I have QS and QSS in the same forectory of MarkV so they share config.cfg. I'm noticing if I switch between those two the delay in launching and closing them goes away. If I launch MV then QS or QSS afterward the delay on those two is back. Albiet shorter as I said above. 
 
Can you confirm there is never a delay for windowed mode?

If so, that would be convincing enough evidence to make a test "fix" for DX9 fullscreen mode.

/Probably throwing in a pq_moveup bug-fix that PoorChop spotted. 
Possible DX9 "No Delay" On Fullscreen Startup Fix? 
@dumptruck, fifth + anyone else who experiences a delay on DX9 Mark V startup:

Download: DX9 Mark V - July 11 potential slow startup fix

@dumptruck -- let me know! 
@Baker 
So this July 11 version no change.

Made 2 shortcuts on my desktop to this new exe.

Windowed mode launched 5 times in a row with almost no delay.

Using fullscreen (-current) re-introduced the delay.

I launched this 5 times as well - all the same. The I switched between the two shortcuts twice. Same results.

I tried this new exe on my older Win7 machine and it doesn't have the issue. Launches full screen with only a tiny delay. 
 
As I said, that is almost certainly a display mode change. Probably 2, switching away from your desktop mode then switching to whatever your selected mode is.

Check your console output log and you should see evidence of it. A bunch of vid_describemodes and vid_describecurrentmode commands can also help.

Yes. I'm aware of the fact that it happens on 10 vs 7, but the fact that it doesn't happen in windowed modes is additional evidence. 
@dumptruck 
Great! You might also check and see if the fix eliminates the need to set the refresh Hz in the Nvidia control panel for your 144hz display.

It may resolve that, then again it may not. 
 
/I think dumptruck has easily earned the June and July "Gunter Award For High Quality Beta Testing".

Nothing is less fun with engine coding than issues that require setups not easily available.

Thanks for the high quality beta testing that identified the source of this issue! 
@Baker 
Thanks I am no Gunter tho.

Did you misunderstand though? This did new release not fix the issue. :( 
When You State... 
"Full external texture support, DP naming convention."

Does Mark V use special effect textures as well? Gloss, normals etc? And what about shaders?

Just curious. 
Nvrmnd ^^^ 
I see you have a HD pack using qrp textures, I can derive the answer from that. Apologies 
 
@dumptruck -- my bad. I quickly scanned the post and only saw the "no delay" and "with only a tiny delay". Missed the part saying the problem still exists for fullscreen. Sorry ... guilty as charged!

I know I vastly prefer the DX9. Maybe mh will come up with some thoughts at some point. The inner workings of DX9 isn't in my knowledge set.

Odd that the OpenGL variants like the WinQuake-GL (WinQuake rendered through Open GL) and the SDL (which is also OpenGL) have no delay.

@damage - Just vanilla replacement texture support like ezQuake, JoeQuake, Qrack.

Mark V supports texture replacement from HUD to Quake models to conback and menu graphics. 
What's Delay 
thingy tho?

ps. sometimes i get the fps locking at 60 
@spy 
If sounds like you have an app running in the background that is forcing video sync.

All you can do is close the other app.

I've seen it happen before, but I can't remember what it was for me (Netflix?). 
 
As I've now said twice, it's a display mode change. Probably two. Seen it once, seen it a million times. I don't understand why dumptruck is being resistant to helping diagnose this further, though.

Traditionally Quake engines only track width, height and bpp when matching display modes. Some engines add refresh rate. A real display mode contains other values, however, and it's possible for two or more modes to exist which are the same so far as these traditional values are concerned but which are actually otherwise different.

Don't be surprised if Windows 10 adds additional modes that aren't in 7. It's a higher version of the driver model with extra capabilities.

What's happening is that dumptruck is running with -current but the engine is not starting in the current mode. It's starting in some other mode, which involves a display mode change, then switching to the current mode which involves another.

There's no delay when shutting down because it's already in the current mode and so doesn't need to switch back.

The other engines have a shorter delay at both startup and shutdown because they're doing a single mode change at each.

There's no delay running -windowed because it doesn't do a mode change at all.

In an ideal world that first mode would be a windowed one and all of this would go away - instant startups would be back. But when I tried to do this years ago I got HUGE pushback from the community. Yayy community.

Anyway, I asked dumptruck to check his console debug log which would tell us which mode it was starting in first, which could have been useful information. But once more he's being resistant to helping us to help him, so I guess that's where it's gonna end, unless he comes round.

@dumptruck - just to be clear.

I am NOT saying "you silly person, ha ha ha",

I AM saying "it's an engine bug. Help us to help you. Please" 
Come On Now Mh 
I'm not sure why you're bagging on the one guy who is downloading extra builds and running all sorts of tests on request. If he's overlooked something you asked him to do then you could make that clear. 
 
I've previously told him twice that it was a display mode change. He responded the first time to insist it wasn't, he ignored the second. I've previously asked for his console log and the output of some vid_describe commands. He ignored that too. So obviously I'm the bad guy here. Yayy Community. Again. 
@baker 
If sounds like you have an app running in the background that is forcing video sync.

yep, It frequently happens when i run the online widz etc

but
sometimes it happens just for no reason , switching to desktop and back to the game's solving the issue 
@dumptruck 
Looks like I need to experience the problem firsthand and see if I can get the problem.

It is possible something non-obvious is going on.

mh brings up bits per pixels and some other factors.

Mark V always tries to use what it thinks are the desktop "current" parameters with -current (ignoring all config settings), but maybe Windows 10 adds some additional parameters I didn't consider.

@mh - Eventually I'll get to the bottom of what is going on. The main issue to trying to find technical info on what Windows 10 updates changes/impacts has been difficult. 
 
THE FIRST DISPLAY MODE CHANGE

This is happening inside VID_Local_Vsync_Init where a call is made to sysplat.wglSwapIntervalEXT(0) - under OpenGL this is not a display mode change; under Direct3D it is.

Suggested solution: suppress this test if running under the D3D9 wrapper; you can safely assume that vsync control is always available in D3D9. This will shave 3 seconds off the startup time. 
 
Got it. I'll give that a try.

Thanks, mh! 
 
THE SECOND AND THIRD DISPLAY MODE CHANGES

In classic Fitz, at the end of VID_Init there is this block of code:

if (COM_CheckParm("-width") || COM_CheckParm("-height") ||
COM_CheckParm("-bpp") || COM_CheckParm("-window"))
{
vid_locked = true;
}


This needs to have "-current" added to the list of params checked, otherwise the engine will run the configs during startup and trigger two display mode changes (assuming a clean config, could be more). The first of these changes is slow, the second is fast (in my test the first went from fullscreen to windowed, the second just changed the size of a windowed mode).

In MarkV I think the equivalent is the video_override_commandline_params array, which is missing "bpp" from classic Fitz's list.

Fixing this up shaves a further 3 seconds off the startup time, and startup times are now instantaneous with no display mode changes happening. 
 
I'll examine that as well.

Yeah, bpp is gone (that's a relic from the 1990s when 65536 color mode was a thing). 
 
As a troubleshooting tip...

In context_t::PreReset I added the following at the start:

Con_Printf ("context_t::PreReset: %f\n", Sys_FloatTime ());

In context_t::PostReset I added the following at the end:

Con_Printf ("context_t::PostReset: %f\n", Sys_FloatTime ());

I was then able to track when display mode changes occurred and cross-reference that with whatever else was going on in the console during startup, as well as time how long each change took. Makes it very quick for hunting down this kind of thing. 
@mh 
I don't understand why dumptruck is being resistant to helping diagnose this further, though.

I need to read the rest of the thread above but I promise you I am not ignoring this situation. I can only test after work and family stuff kept me busy last night until pretty late.

Honesty, I didn't notice anything in the console and I was definitely paying attention the other night when I DID test.

So my desktop is set to 144. The game is set to 144 there's still a mode change in FS? I don't get that.

What I will ask is that someone let me know what I can look at in Windows to help troubleshoot. I am not stellar with troubleshooting the OS. 
2nd Post 
Sorry.

There's no delay when shutting down because it's already in the current mode and so doesn't need to switch back.

There IS a delay when shutting down but not 7 seconds. The game will close but the Mark V icon is still in the Quicklaunch bar and the system is unresponsive until it closes.

I will post console logs with the info mh is targeting as soon as I can. 
@dumptruck 
You don't need to do anything.

mh solved it. It's all on me now.

I want to wrap up the SnapTile editor (yeah, going with the name mankrip chose -- I can't do better) before doing a Mark V fix.

So give me a few days.

When I get close to completing something, I develop a one-track mind where I want to finish it. 
@Baker 
Thanks. And please no pressure on a timeline. Do your thing, happy to wait for your fine work. :) Excited to see this SnapTile project in action. 
Mark_v Takes 7 Full Seconds To Load 
Seems like a lot. Just tested it with latest build.
Windowed mode is instant.

Tried changing my refresh rates and this doesn't change the delay (I have a 144hz monitor).

Closing Mark_V takes 4 full seconds fullscreen and closes instantly when in windowed mode. 
@dumptruck 
Yeah, we tracked it down.

I owe you an apology for being a dickhead about this. On the other hand, MarkV will get better as a result. 
Mh 
No worries! Poor Baker though. Coding during the summer. ;) 
 
I'm only the idiot who wrote the code, Baker's the idiot who has to maintain it! 
Video: High Definition Pack With More Realistic Shadows 
High Definition Pack Video With More Realistic Shadows:

Watch Video

1) r_shadows 3
2) r_waterripple 3
3) QMB on, obviously
4) With HD Pack and Transparent Water .Vis/.Lits Pack

For illustration purposes. 
 
dumptruck_ds: Thanks I am no Gunter tho.

Hey, you're doing extensive testing and detailed reports to help squash obscure bugs AND getting mh miffed, so you're well on your way! 
 
Cool shadows. Any chance for lit liquids in the future? 
 
I can't remember if mh wrote a full fledged prototype or not and if the one or two small but important barriers were solved (i.e. detecting lit water and maybe something else).

I think if he did, it would eventually happen. 
 
I've solved the detection and posted the solution in some thread here or at InsideQC a long time ago.

The other problem was to compile the maps properly, but EricW solved that. 
Lit Liquids 
Wasn't there an issue with the surface warping making it look really bad? 
#2347 
Not in my engine.

And in hardware-accelerated engines it should be easy to combine warped textures with non-warped lighting through shaders. 
 
Detection: http://forums.insideqc.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=5835

And in hardware-accelerated engines it should be easy to combine warped textures with non-warped lighting through shaders.

This doesn't need shaders; hardware-accelerated Quake already uses two separate sets of texture coords for difuse and lightmap, so just warp the diffuse coords only but don't warp the lightmap coords.

The issue is that whatever way you slice it, it looks bad.

I do understand where the desire to do this comes from. You've built a map, you have a large water surface in it, the surrounding geometry is nicely lit and shadowed, and the fullbright water looks bad. And you're right, the fullbright water does look bad, but lit water actually looks worse.

The two big problems are (1) when the lighting on the water is sufficiently dark you can't see the warp effect at all i it just looks like a big dark spot, and (2) with translucent water enabled the water just disappears.

This is an example of taking a special case and wanting a general case solution for it, but not properly considering how that general case solution may or may not work outside of the original special case.

"Can I have lit water?" seems a reasonable request, but you also need to be thinking about lit laval, lit slime, lit teleports, how it interacts with translucent water, etc. 
 
I've already considered all of that years ago and Retroquad has individual cvars for each texture type. I usually keep r_portal_lit and r_lava_lit disabled in Retroquad, because the textures I'm using for them doesn't have glowmaps. But the slime texture I'm using does.

Your mistake is to think that you're the only one who thought about all that. No, you're not, you haven't even thought about liquid textures with glowmaps (QRP has them!), and the worst thing is that you're speculating from a purely theoretical standpoint while I'm speaking from experience.

Lit water does look fucking good. The Unreal engine already has lit water since 1998, and nobody ever complained about it because its maps were created with lit water in mind. Lit liquids in Quake is for NEW MAPS ONLY because the maps need a full recompile from the .map sources for this to work and the mapper must deliberately opt-in to enable it in the compiler.

Your issue is that you don't want mappers to have a chance. You don't want them to experiment and learn how to tweak the lighting in their maps to make lit liquids look good. You don't want them to have artistic freedom.

The "it looks bad" argument is not a technical argument, it's merely an uninformed opinion.

You are not a mapper. 
 
...and the worst thing is that you're speculating from a purely theoretical standpoint while I'm speaking from experience

I am actually also speaking from experience because I have also written this code and have also seen what lit water looks like.

Here's the Quaktastic folder where I uploaded a bunch of screenshots: http://www.quaketastic.com/?dir=files/screen_shots/LITWater

Check the date on them - over a year and a half ago.

Check some examples of exactly what I mean:

http://www.quaketastic.com/files/screen_shots/LITWater/e2m5_litwater.jpg

http://www.quaketastic.com/files/screen_shots/LITWater/e1m5_litwater.jpg

http://www.quaketastic.com/files/screen_shots/LITWater/e1m2_litwater.jpg

Your entire premise is based on the assumption that I don't know what I'm talking about, whereas I actually do. When I say "lit water actually looks worse" you had two options and you instantly reached for the negative one - yayy community. 
 
I am actually also speaking from experience because I have also written this code

No, you are speaking from MAPPING experience.

I've never made a full map but I often practice mapping to test and learn how new features like this could be used. 
#2352 
* not speaking 
 
Not only you used screenshots from other people's maps that were NOT designed for lit water, your E1M2 screenshot shows that you probably didn't recompile them using the latest versions of EricW's compilers, which properly lits the liquids from both sides. The lighting at the edges of the water should be similar to the lighting of the walls that crosses them. 
 
All your screenshots looks like they didn't use EricW's compilers. Completely missing backside lighting.

I'm on mobile and not at home now, but asap I'll post some screenshots of those maps properly recompiled. 
Hmm.. 
To me all three of those screenshots you chose mh look quite promising and easy to work around to get pretty lit water with some effort from the mapper (and yeah some compiler magic would obviously help).
Would be curious to see with some high alpha values, as you seem to say it looks ugly, but plenty of other games have lightmaped transparents that look fine. 
 
OK, I am going to put my money where my mouth is.

http://www.quaketastic.com/files/misc/Q1LitWater.zip

This package contains:

(1) A version of GLQuake modified to support lightmapped water.

(2) Source code for it.

(3) A version of e2m5 compiled, using EricW's tools, for lightmapped water.

So now everyone can see it. 
#2357 
Finally. We should let the mappers decide. Thanks for listening.

And to finish settling this, here are the comparison screenshots:

mh E1M2
Retroquad E1M2 (opaque)
Retroquad E1M2 (translucid)


mh E1M5
Retroquad E1M5 (opaque)
Retroquad E1M5 (translucid)


mh E2M5
Retroquad E2M5 (opaque)
Retroquad E2M5 (translucid)

My recompiled E1M5 and E2M5 maps used an older version of EricW's compilers that added improper dirtmapping to liquids, IIRC (which is why their water is a little darker on the edges). But my recompiled E1M2 map used a later version that fixed all issues. Anyway, see how different all of them are from yours. 
 
Since mh wrote a prototype for it (using GLQuake makes it essentially a tutorial for any engine developer), it rather likely that some future date it will added to Mark V.

Especially since ericw (and Spike too?) invested the time to make lit water in the ericw compile tools.

I don't have an opinion of lit water. It is the time investment by other developers which would be the reason to have interest in adding it from my point of view. 
 
Here's a screenshot of my recompiled E1M2 running in mh's GLQuake with opaque lit water support
Hey Poorchop 
I noticed that Poorchop mentioned mouseclicks not registering. I'm seeing that myself at the moment with a fresh Mark V install on latest Windows 10... sometimes it's the +mouse1 that doesn't register (and so it doesn't fire), sometimes the -mouse1 (and so it doesn't stop firing).

Happens with both mark_v and mark_v_winquake. Doesn't happen with latest quakespasm.

Anyway, just some corroboration. Let me know if I should test/try something. 
@johnny 
Hmmm.

1. Does the SDL alternate build do this as well? SDL build

This would tell me if it were something about the pure Windows code or the all operating systems code.

2. Also: What do you have mouse1 bound to? Attack? Jump? 
 
1. Not nearly as often. I was hoping I could say "never", but I do think it missed a couple of mousedowns during a map playthrough. (While in comparison, it would not be unusual for mark_v.exe to miss a mouse event in the course of even an individual fight.)

2. +attack 
 
One probably-irrelevant difference I noticed: the mark_v.exe FPS display is pegged at 72 (my host_maxfps), while the FPS display in the SDL build wandered between 67 and 70 on the same map. 
 
Yeah, the probably irrelevant difference is just that. The DX9 is better at hitting exactly the 72 because it is faster.

re: mouse - Looks like more to do with Windows 10. I'm glad you are able to replicate the issue PoorChop experienced, increases odds of conclusively solving it. 
 
I'm glad too, good to know that I'm not the only one experiencing this. 
 
For the people who want to test it, here are some of the ID1 maps I've recompiled with lit liquids:
http://www.quaketastic.com/files/misc/litwater_id1mapexamples.7z

I've tried to figure out how to implement lightmapped translucent liquids in mh's GLQuake code, but hardware rendering isn't my thing and I've got no time to learn it. 
 
If I get time I'll do a 2.0 build. It's not overly difficult, like you indicate, just a matter of knowing what to do. 
When You Wish Upon A Star... 
So these lit water and things are looking cool. I am also wondering about the possibility to implement sv_protocol 999 support in Mark V.

The map I'm working on needs it, and I get a hard crash with hunc_alloc error similar to TerShib when I try to force it.

Is there a chance to see this happen? I would love to be able to see how the map handles in Mark V. 
 
Version 2 with translucent water support: http://www.quaketastic.com/files/misc/Q1LitWater_2.zip 
 
HUGE thanks!

Initially I thought "well, I can just combine the texture & lighting like the translucent mirrors does before blending", but then I found out that GLQuake's mirrors doesn't use lightmaps either. No way for clueless me to hack it in. 
 
 
I have to be quite tiresome about this and confess that I'm still not a fan of the look. To me, the water no longer looks like water - it looks solid instead.

I'd also be of the opinion that light should go through translucent water.

But then, Quake's rendering was never really about being 100% realistic anyway. 
 
Well, it still looks better in Retroquad, mainly because of soft depth. But I'm confident that mappers will figure out good ways to use it.

And it should certainly be optional. 
Feature Request For The Future 
cl_autodemo is really invaluable. If you could append the map filename to the file they generate that would be super helpful. Or at least part of the name. Ppl ask me to play their maps often and I use autodemo for this. Would be great to know what map a given demo is for outside of the exe. I am constantly renaming files. 
 
Redfield -- A large coordinates protocol would be a next year most likely. It wouldn't be sv_protocol 999, which sports lots of brokeness (I should make a video sometime).

Dumptruck - Mark V autodemo was adapted loosely from Qrack autodemo which does exactly that. If I am able to determine the cause of the Poorchop/Johnny Law mouse issue, I would probably throw in a "cl_autodemo 2" that like, Qrack, does exactly what you want. 
Ooh Ooh, An Idea! 
play_autos mydemo

To play all of mydemo0, mydemo1, 2, 3, 4 etc. automatically in a row.
And if someone leaves out, mydemo3 for instance, it would just skip to mydemo4.



Protocol 999 opt in cvar pretty please please. With sugar and a cherry on top. I've got a few Orl-size maps I'm working on that have a 99.9% chance of needing 999. 
Baker 
Yes, would you make that video demonstrating 999's brokenness? Or at least briefly talk about it? Cause I'm curious to know. 
@ORL 
Yes, in time I will make a video.

mh has an expression "once you see something, you can't unsee it".

I think seeing in this case is going to be necessary. 
Protocol 999 
I'm the original designer.

The core idea is actually quite solid. It's based on 666, but with the addition of a bunch of opt-in features. The client and server negotiate which features to use, and the whole thing can gracefully degrade if a feature is unsupported.

It was always more about higher precision angles and more TE_ effects than big coords, or at least that's how it seems to me thinking back, but big coords was just one of the things it could also support. The important thing though is that it's extensible nature means that you could plug in your own big coords system if you wanted.

Being built on 666 means that it inherits all of an NQ protocol's weaknesses. That's not an attack on 666, it's an observation on NQ protocols in general. There are much better ways of doing all of this stuff; supporting big coords, more precision, more effects AND being more efficient in the data stream. NQ is a bit brute force, which is fine in simpler setups but hits scalability ceilings much faster. 
 
mh: it was always more about higher precision angles ...

Translated: nice smooth rotating doors and draw bridges.

(like Remake Quake could do -- as opposed to clunky hipnotic doors)

Fitz 666 didn't have enough angle precision resulting in walking on a drawbridge coming down to not feel jerky and the same for getting pushed by an opening door. Also the higher precision angles were used for some rotating effects in QuakeC. 
So... 
999 should be used on any map with bsp rotation such as drawbridges, pushable gates (ne_ruins), rotating path changers (like Dismal Oubliette but rotaty), etc.

OR maps as big as Orl's.

Still not sure what the problem with it is. 
 
It should probably just be renamed to "ORL Protocol." 
@qmaster 
Nope. 999 does nothing for hipnotic rotation at all.

If you want to see real rotation, you'll have to play Remake Quake and trigger the draw bridge or find a rotating door.

Must use the Remake Quake engine -- Quakespasm doesn't support true rotation (nor does Mark V, it did briefly once upon a time but it led to the discovery of some oddness with existing Quake maps -- even a couple of stock Quake ones -- and was removed).

Sadly, true rotation sadly interferes some with existing maps where entities or even maps have the angles key set (and they shouldn't be). I think dis_sp3 is an example. 
 
a lot of games come with two *.exe's
one for windows 32 bits and one for windows 64 bits...quakespasm have quakespasm.exe and quakespasm-sdl2.exe... even quake has two exe's (normal and opengl)

maybe would be cool to have two markv.exe's, one for old maps and one for new maps with true rotation :)

just my two cents :) 
MH 
There's something strange I've spotted on your GLQuake code, in R_BuildLightMap.

This is your source:

for (j=0 ; j<smax ; j++)
{
t = *bl++;
t >>= 8;
if (t > 255)
t = 255;
dest[j] = t;
}


But this is the original source:

for (j=0 ; j<smax ; j++)
{
t = *bl++;
t >>= 7;
if (t > 255)
t = 255;
dest[j] = 255-t;
}


What's the reasoning behind that?
(255 - (t >> 7)) == (t >> 8) ?

Oh, wait, I've found it:
"shift the lightmap by 8 (jnstead of by 7) in R_BuildLightmap"
Overbrights, ok.

However, by doing that you lose precision, resulting in more abrupt discrepancies in light values across different surfaces, which is likely another reason why the lightmapped water in your GLQuake engine looks worse than in Retroquad.

Compare these shots:
GLQuake
Retroquad (with soft depth disabled) 
 
Yeah, that's overbrights. Yeah, it loses 1 bit of precision, but it still has 256 gradations of light - software Quake only had 64.

Rotation: higher precision can't fix Hipnotic rotation, that was born broke (fun fact: the hackiest mod is Nehahra, the second-most hackiest is Hipnotic). I can't recall the exact use case but it would have been something like a drawbridge that had the herky-jerkies with standard 8-bit angles. 
 
Retroquad uses the full 8 bits of precision, and it also compensates for the loss of precision. It has nothing in common with WinQuake when it comes to shading & texturing.

The fact is that the same light can be raycast to slightly different levels across the edges shared between different surfaces. The less precision is used, the bigger this difference can become. 
 
The full range of light scales per the BSP format can't be represented by standard 2x overbrights. "z" is double-bright, so with 4 lightsyles combined I make that 11 bits per channel, and that's not including dynamics.

I guess that the point is, you're always going to be losing precision. 
@Tribal 
maybe would be cool to have two markv.exe's, one for old maps and one for new maps with true rotation :)

32-bit vs. 64 bit doesn't have anything to do with rotation. Remake Quake engine with true rotation is a 32-bit.

Half-Life has had true rotation since 1998 and it evident in all aspects of the game.

There really aren't any advantages for 64-bit on Windows that I can name, except 64-bit uses a bit more memory because pointers are twice the size.

The Linux build of Mark V, for instance, has always been 64 bit. 
 
I guess it wasn't clear that I'm implying that the loss of precision can be compensated for by doing t = (t + (1 << 7)) >> 8. It's exactly the same principle of adding 0.5 to the velocity to fix the gravity issues in low framerates. It's obvious.

Anyway, it may be not enough. Besides this compensation, Retroquad performs color correction, gamma correction, brightness correction and multiple kinds of error diffusion.

Maybe the results will be better when your code gets ported to Mark V or other advanced engines. 
@Baker 
The win32/win64 bits was used just as an example of games that come with two exe's. I didn't want to imply that it has something to do with true rotation :)

Well, forget my lame example... My point is, why not compile two markV.exe's? One to play old maps and one (with true rotation) to play new maps that can use this feature? =D 
Yeah, Sure Not Quite Mark V But Whatever 
A induces B.

Image ---> video 
@mankrip 
That's just rounding to nearest rather than rounding down.

Believe me, I've rewritten the lightmapping code to use L16, RGB16, RGB32F, RGB10A2 and other formats over the years. I've written GPU lightmap implementations where the 4 styles are combined on the GPU with zero precision loss. I've stored exponential factors in the alpha channel and unpacked them in a shader. I've even done 4x overbrights with standard RGB8 lightmaps, losing 2 bits of precision.

This is not a big deal. For lightmaps the extended range is more important.

I guess a version 3 using L16 lightmaps might be in order to prove this. 
 
And just in case this needs to be explicitly stated.

The lightmapped water path uses exactly the same code as regular lightmapped surfaces. In GLQuake that's just multiplying 2 numbers, and nobody can claim that one way of multiplying 2 numbers gives a better or different result than another.

Frankly, I'm sick of hearing "Retroquad is better because..." - where can I download Retroquad, run it, study it's code and learn from it? Nowhere. You may as well be talking about touched-up screenshots for all the practical use that is. I've heard the mouth, show me the trousers. 
Arcane Sprites And Particles 
I was talking with some others about the way that Arcane's particle effects are rendered in different engines. I was wondering if you had any plans to bring Quakespasm's level of detail to the engine. QS doesn't really do a whole lot but there are some extra sprites for models like the flame. Their absence is pretty striking in Mark V. Here's what I mean:

QS:
https://i.imgur.com/5lvrO9y.jpg

Mark V:
https://i.imgur.com/rmgvRMq.jpg

I didn't even think that QS was doing anything in particular regarding Arcane's extra particle effects. I do know that QSS takes it a step further with smoke but I'm not expecting that level of detail in Mark V. I also know it's a pain when users make requests like this but don't get me wrong, I'm not asking for this to be turned into an existing engine. I just like the extra sprites and I was wondering if there were any plans for something like this. 
Their Absence Is Pretty Striking In Mark V 
not sure what you mean, i believe the particles not showing up on mark V - it's on your side

i have no probs here
https://imgur.com/a/YBJ9pFq 
 
I have a feeling that you're not using a default setup. The flame itself in your photo looks like a sprite or even just a bunch of particles lumped together. In a clean install of Mark V and a fresh install of Arcane 1.7.1 with default settings, flames don't look like that. 
 
Version 3, with GL_LUMINANCE16 lightmaps; thse are 16-bit lightmaps with 7 more bits of precision than GLQuake without overbrights and 8 more bits than GLQuake with overbrights. I'd encourage anyone who thinks that bits of precision in lightmaps are super-impotrant to run this and see if they actually are. I'd even encourage double-blind tests.

http://www.quaketastic.com/files/misc/Q1LitWater_3.zip 
@Poorchop 
yeah, the patricles depend on temp1 in AD cfg settings 
Ah The Flames 
it's QMB enabled in my case, you can turn them off 
GPU Lightmaps Implmentation 
Quake 2 engine, D3D9, with GPU-animated lightstyles and GPU dynamic lights; renders the lightmaps at the full original precision of the BSP light data lump; unlimited dynamic range for added dynamic lights.

http://www.quaketastic.com/files/misc/Quake2GPULightmaps.zip

It's a long time since I worked on this so I don't know how robust it is, but it should be fine for playing through the original SP missions. 
Quake 1, Partial Real-time Lighting Implementation 
This was another one that went part of the way but I didn't continue with; no real idea why. It uses real-time lighting derived from the same light equations as are used in the original light.exe, but I never got round to adding shadows. Needs heavy optimization work.

http://www.quaketastic.com/files/misc/Q1RTLights.zip

Its fun to run around the original maps and look at how different the lighting quality is, but I wouldn't play Quake with this. Also, any map compiled with any more modern tool will probably look hellish weird because I don't have support for all of the other options added since light.exe was originally released. 
As You've Stated 
I was talking with some others about the way that Arcane's particle effects are rendered in different engines.

https://imgur.com/a/3oSpkFn

this pretty much matches the qs screenshot 
Q2dx9 
not bad

https://imgur.com/IrDhF6Z

https://imgur.com/kFW0TIU

it seems it's a great alternative to KMQ 
 
That's just rounding to nearest rather than rounding down.

Yes, but in color calculations, every small inaccuracy amplifies the others. And as mentioned, gamma correction also plays a part and there may be issues with gamma correction.

Anyway, while I was open to explore how to improve the image in GLQuake and trying to figure out what's causing the differences in lighting, you're getting angrier. Better forget this conversation and leave it behind, it's not good to let things become unhealthy. 
#2405 
Go underwater ;) 
@Poorchop 
In Mark V change Temp1 to 1024 and restart the map for particles. Its at 0 by default. Mark V is capable of displaying the same AD particle effects as QS. 
MH 
the waterwarping is a pretty great
but i'm not a fan of distortions
sorry

https://imgur.com/a/LXc2KYT 
 
Thanks spy and Redfield, that worked and it looks great now. 
Gamma 
If you let Mark V generate a new config file from scratch and check the gamma, it says that it's set a 0.75 even though 1 is listed as the default. I thought that this was a bit strange and I'm looking for some insight on it.

I also have a slight suspicion that this has an impact on mappers. I've played some maps recently that were incredibly dark at gamma 1 and contrast 1, but they were much more playable at Mark V's default gamma of 0.75. It makes me wonder if people are mostly just testing in Mark V causing their maps to be extremely dark in other source ports that default to 1/1 gamma/contrast. 
Gamma 
GLQuake defaulted it's gamma to 0.7 on non-3DFX hardware. Not sure why MarkV is doing similar but it seems too much of a coincidence. 
 
Mark V doesn't default gamma 0.75 (gamma 1 is default), but a certain revision did (revision 2? revision 3?) where I was merging with QuakeDroid. Johhny Law noticed different defaults in the Windows version and I corrected.

QuakeDroid defaults gamma 0.75 because gamma 1 is just too dark. 
Windows 10/Poorchop/Johnny Law 
On my Windows 10 machine, I didn't experience any Poorchop/Johnny Law mouse oddities.

Makes me wonder if maybe I could cause the issue somehow by installing maybe new Direct X drivers? I don't know.

If I can't experience an issue, makes it tough to guess. The mouse was fine for me.

If Mark V 1036 download link doesn't experience the mouse issue on Johnny Law/PoorChop's machine, I would suspect the issue relates to DirectInput which 1.99 switched to.

If that is the case, I could make DirectInput turn on and off and maybe default off. 
 
make DirectInput turn on and off and maybe default off.

I'm thinking that's probably the best option.

After playing Mark V and setting my sensitivity to an appropriate value to account for dinput, if I then use some other engine or a different version of Mark V, my sensitivity is way too high!

Here's another thought: If dinput is being used, automatically double the sensitivity value (rather, treat the value as doubled). That would probably get rid of the need for the Sensitivity slider to go up much higher to account for dinput being much less sensitive.

And if people wanna be more precise (even with the doubling happening behind the scenes), they can use decimal values, like sensitivity 10.5

But doubling the Sensitivity value for dinput would probably feel very close to the standard Sensitivity value when dinput is not being used. 
 
Bummer that you couldn't reproduce. I gave Mark V another few tries within the past few weeks and I had the same exact issues that Johnny Law spoke of - sometimes -mouse1 didn't register so I was firing indefinitely. Previously I just thought it was neither +mouse1 nor -mouse1 registering.

I'll spend some time playing around in 1036 to see if it works fine for me. 
 
I'm about to go camping, but I'll remember to get back to this later. 
 
Guys take your time, it's the summer. But yeah, if either of you can find out if 1036 does or doesn't have the issue, it can really shed some light on the nature of the issue. 
V1036 Works Just Fine 
I've tested long enough by now that I would've noticed if I was still having issues but I haven't had any problems with 1036. I spent a while bunny hopping and playing through maps, and all of my mouse clicks registered just fine.

On a side note, I am getting some pretty terrible performance outside of id1 maps but that's another issue. 
 
Thanks for info. Helps confirm thoughts on issue. 
@poorchop 
May I trouble you to test one more build ...

The 1080 build. download

And tell me if you have the mouse issue with 1080.

The results from 1080 should allow me to conclusively and quickly do a patch fixing exactly the "right" thing. (The alternative is some guesswork and if I am wrong it could take 3 attempts.)

I'd like to resolve the "Poorchop/Johnny Law Windows 10 mouse issue" right the first time. 
1080 
I played through some id1 and bunny hopped around for a long time, but I didn't notice any issues with mouse clicks registering. v1080 seems to be working fine here as well. 
@Poorchop 
Thanks! 
 
FWIW I just played through Amphitheater Of Abaddon using build 1080 and didn't notice any problems. 
 
(and that was me) 
1099_r4 
Defaults to gamma .75 I can confirm this as I've installed it into new directories 3x this week. I usually reset my config by hand BTW so it's defaulting for sure. 
@Baker 
Heads up that uwjam is performing pretty badly with this mod. Seems the sprites are causing significant framerate issues. I will test some more this evening but wanted to check with anyone else and see if they were experiencing issues.

I just played in QSS and did not experience the showdown. 
 
I haven't tested uwjam with Mark V but I've played a few other maps that have some frame rate issues despite running perfectly fine in other ports. Not really sure how to troubleshoot something like this though. 
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