A neat shader for DP adds lightrays to windows, I'm thinking something similar could perhaps be done with lamp posts? But that would require having 2 versions of the map, one for vanilla-flavored engines and one without the illusionary brushes for engines that support shaders.

One thing's for sure: the noir theme would have greatly benefited DP's lighting capabilities and it's kind of a missed opportunity to have focused on QS. 

...then move your ass and do a proper noir map for DP, instead of complaining ;) 

Hmm,

Have to say I did pull something from this conversation. I don't really have an aversion to other engines. In fact, years ago when I first played Quake on the PC I opted to look for "The Ultimate Quake Patch" and DP to ensure I got an up to date experience. Since others have the same thought process I will definitely at least do a run through on future releases on various engines to ensure stability.

Back on topic, one of the big aspects of the noir theme that I was hoping for was the street lights on dark streets and I got a taste of it but wanted more! I am glad NewHouse and Ionous deviated from the literal noir theme and took creative liberties but I also appreciate the more literal usage from Pritchard and Shamblernaut's start map. 

Yah, my Sin City/Rumble Fish map is still in the works but progress is slow - firstly I'm still a mapping n00b and have much to learn and secondly it's been delayed by my focus on my jazzy/industrial soundtrack, which I still have to finish.

Anyway, when I release it I'm gonna make sure it runs on several engines, even if it means releasing 2 versions. 

Would you really want to build something that's engine specific though? At least stuff built for QS ought to work in DP (whether or not it actually does, as discussed, is another matter), but relying on DP's graphical "enhancements" to make your map look correct is a recipe for compatibility disaster.

I think that's why people have moved away from a wider range of engine support in recent times, to be honest. QS has become known for offering the "Quake Standard" experience, providing generally good compatibility for the majority of Quake content without significant user tweaks or other changes. If your map works in QS, it should work in any other engine that claims to accurately reproduce the original DOS/WinQuake/GlQuake/Whatever Carmack Actually Wrote engines, the implication being that you shouldn't have to worry so much about that stuff.
Call it false advertising, perhaps, but it's a good excuse to get out of something that really isn't much fun.

While i'm here, what's the history behind QS? This probably isn't the thread to ask in, but it's kind of topical considering Mugwump's comments about fragmentation and how a "few years ago" maps seemed to be better tested. I know QS first popped up at some point in 2010 (The first commit on SF, for example) and that it's based on FitzQuake, but how long did it take for the engine to reach the status it has today? 

I will definitely at least do a run through on future releases on various engines to ensure stability.
That's the spirit!

one of the big aspects of the noir theme that I was hoping for was the street lights on dark streets and I got a taste of it but wanted more!
I know the feeling. I mean, what I've played so far looks good but I expected more experimentations with chiaroscuro. 

Would you really want to build something that's engine specific though? (...) relying on DP's graphical "enhancements" to make your map look correct is a recipe for compatibility disaster.
Nope. As I said, I would make sure it runs on several engines, no matter if I have to release 2 versions. When GLQuake came out, some people released both software and GL versions of their maps and I'm bent on ensuring max compatibility so that players are free to play it in their engine of choice. 

Certainly not a bad thing, but releasing/maintaining multiple versions of a map for different engine ports seems like a pretty good example of why people shy away from supporting a lot of different engines... That's a lot of work, and it's not like there's an easy way to merge maps back together as progress is made. (I mean, i'm sure with some good regex you can get all the brush/entity numbers to like up again or whatever you need to do to make that stuff work).

I think the situation you're talking about is compatibility disaster ground zero, to be honest. When you're supporting a "fractured" map release, that's like... peak fracturing.

Would a better solution be to have a "DarkPlaces Only" spawnflag on all entities? That way you'd be able to do most of the changes that are necessary in one map... 

Yes, it's more work, but what's the point of releasing anything if you won't cater to the players?

You have a good point about ground zero but at any rate, I still find it preferable than willingly excluding part of the community. The ideal solution would of course be that engine devs get together to define some kind of standard, but good luck with that!

I don't understand that spawnflag stuff yet. I'll need to look into it at some point. Would that enable/disable specific features of a map depending on the engine? 

Okay, here you go:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwxYkKdSD855UWtwNHVVYnVZaUk/view?usp=sharing

Here is updated version of my jam map, replace the jam files and run. There is also ReadMe especially for Darkplaces users, it simple just point out this console command which made the visual glitches disappear.

Teleport is fixed now (I tested it couple times). Also made small changes there and there.

Please let me know, how does it feel now. After all there is no much plans for me to continue working on this specific map, for the standalone version I need to start from the scratch almost. 

I'll DL it when I get access to an online computer, probably tonight (GMT+1) and I'll let you know.

As for no much plans for me to continue working on this specific map, I don't know what the jam rules entail regarding deadlines and updates, but if I were you I'd add some details to the facade of the first building you get out of. When you look at it from the other side of the collapsed street, it looks very empty compared to the rest of the map.

Also, it's probably too much extra work for this version but if you remake it as standalone, make sure you follow Khreathor's advice in post #90 instead of making users disable that cvar. 

FWIW, the versioning of AD is confusing. You've got a v1.42patch2, and you've got a v1.42srslyfinal. Which package looks like a final version?

As I said, I would make sure it runs on several engines, no matter if I have to release 2 versions.

So instead of compatibility disaster you'd get a maintenance disaster.

I'm really fed up with source ports for popular games not being standartized, to be honest. There's a general assumption that if you only support one niche of engines, you're missing out on potential players, but the amount of PITA and sacrifices you have to make for the broadest compatibility is hardly comparable to the player having to use more than one source port.

I'm talking more about Doom than Quake here, but certain things are even worse in Quake. 

sacrifices you have to make for the broadest compatibility is hardly comparable to the player having to use more than one source port.
You're not wrong but personally, I don't like being forced to use a different engine as I enjoy DP's graphical features very much. And conversely, I'm aware that there's a number of people who wouldn't touch DP with a hazmat suit even if their lives depended on it, and I still want these people to play my maps. "Don't do unto others...", right? You might call that overkill but I'm a perfectionist. 

Any source port engine that claims to be "Quake" ought to run Quake maps. If it can't, it's not a "Quake Engine".

Does Darkplaces actually claim to be a Quake engine?

If it does, but won't properly run maps that work fine in Fitzquake and Quakespasm, then go complain to the Darkplaces developer. Don't come here and gripe about it to the map maker. 

I wouldn't exactly call QS vanilla and faithful. It supports a lot of things vanilla didn't support.

Of course, if a given QS map breaks in DP due to some kind of oversight (instead of the feature sets not overlapping very well), then it's another story.

On a vaguely related note, GLQuake isn't a Quake engine, apparently, because if I'll make a button glowing in the dark due to fullbright pixels, no one will ever notice it. I don't think that counts as "properly".

If I was to summarize somehow: compatibility is a pain in the ass, always was. 

"...but if I were you I'd add some details to the facade of the first building you get out of. When you look at it from the other side of the collapsed street, it looks very empty compared to the rest of the map."

That is good point, to be honest I thought it just felt right. There wasn't anything special, so there wasn't focus points at all. But I will do add more details like windows, newspapers, couple streetlights, cardboard boxes and stuff like that, but those will be for the next update.

If it is possible I would like to share that link even in Quakeaddicted site, when it will be uploaded there (but the link should lead to the latest update then).

I will try to look at what is broken and fix that, and maybe later it is possible to play without using that r_useportalculling 0. But at the moment, DP users need to do that extra thing (at least it works). 

To be fair the thing that broke in my map was z fighting between world geometry and entities with alpha tags. The error was only visible because of the alpha tag. The alpha tag wasn't a thing in glquake from what I recall.

Not exactly vanilla.

Anyway, let's try to keep the discussion related to the mapjam, we have other (more relevant) boards that we can discuss engine fragmentation in. 

I wasn't believing this jam too much, but people did a great job. True noir vibe. Congrats to all. And warm regards to start map trolls. I recommend taking a look at this one before bitching further. 

Start map trolls? Uh, what?! Since when is it trolling or bitching to warn an author of an issue with an engine, exactly? Unless I took your comment wrong, in that case please disregard what I've just said (I'm french so even if I can speak a pretty good english, I may not always detect all the nuances of the english language).

Don't come here and gripe about it to the map maker.
Well until the engine is fixed we don't have many other options, do we? Furthermore, not taking several popular engines into consideration IS an oversight on the map maker's part, so "griping" about it is indeed relevant. I admit it's more difficult to take the time to do that in the context of a jam with a deadline, though.

let's try to keep the discussion related to the mapjam
Gotcha. Sorry for the OT. Any further discussion on the matter will be moved to General Abuse. 

Update downloaded. More on that later.

If it is possible I would like to share that link even in Quakeaddicted site, when it will be uploaded there
Just make sure that Shamblernaut includes the updated version in the zip that will be sent to Spirit. Oh by the way, it's Quaddicted, not Quakeaddicted. 

We have heard you, and now it is just everyone's own decision what to do with their maps, after all jam is over now. This is just the hobby not the real job.

I do care that people want quality, but it is not the meaning of these jams. Look what there is instead of what there isn't. Some of us maybe, will be making standalone versions, so in that sense feedback is always welcome. But sometimes feedback might feel a bit more salty than sugary. 

Why are you saying that? I'm cool, I just brought some constructive criticism. On the contrary, it's comments like #108 that seem bitter and uncalled for.

Anyway, I've played your updated map and it's good to go. I only had one random crash near the beginning but it didn't happen again - I had much more of these with the previous version, notably in the part with all the red lights where you first fight a bunch of plasma enforcers and those dudes on flying discs.

Reviews are coming. 

I just tried to let's all stay on the topic, that is why I didn't target it to someone especially. Sorry if I made it unclear what I meant.

What kind of crashes did you experienced? As I can tell there is some portals I should try to fix next. 

To be honest I don't know why I write down it that way, I clearly didn't meant to hurt anyone. It just feel unfair that there are people commenting and giving good feedbacks and I also want respond to some of them... but it is hard to find all of them after all this DP/engine conversation. I just wanted to make it very clear that some of us will support DP and some don't. 

With the first version, I had returns to desktop with error messages like these:
Mem_Free: trashed head sentinel (alloc at :187240688, sentinel check at ../../../cl_parse.c:1698)
Mem_Free: not allocated or double freed (free at ../../../gl_rmain.c:3788)
as well as some without any message.
With the new version I had no message.

I had no crash issues with the other maps but it could be possible that they're DP-related bugs: I'm using one of the latest autobuilds (for the support of alpha masked textures) and they are known for not being extra-stable.

However, I'm having a lot of non-crashing issues in the console. Things like portals clipped away, empty submodels or activator (func_train) errors. I could upload a condump later tonight if you want.