I'll clarify with an example. If you have a trigger_multiple with

"target" "tweedledum"
"targetname "tweedledee"

and his partner

"target" "tweedledee"
"targetname "tweedledum"

If you ever walk into one of these triggers, they'll instantly crash because they just keep using each other with no delay, and the stack overflows. tweedledee targets tweedledum who targets tweedledee...

So in effect tweedledee is targetting himself. This would however be fine if either trigger had a delay - in fact a trigger which targets itself and has a delay is a very useful pattern - it's basically a clock which keeps firing the same event at a fixed time interval.

What I want to know is "can an entity indirectly target itself - cause itself to be used again, with no delay, legitimately?" That is, without crashing the engine... 

What are the max faces / verticies in a map? Do models count towards these limits? Do brushmodels and external brushmodels?

I've got a Bad Surface extents error and nothing I've done recently seems to have caused it since I've been backing up, deleting stuff and recompiling to try and find the issue but no go.

I've got 50906 faces against the standard 32767 normal limit.

The map doesn't load even in RMQe and I've been testing in fitz up until now.

If it is just too much stuff then the map may well just end up as a load of empty boxes since It's barely halfway complete and I haven't even added the end arena. 

A delay of 0.1 would equate to next frame - it'd be heavy as fuck on the engine but it shouldn't crash outright? 

Frames can be shorter than 0.1 seconds, and it wouldn't be a great strain on the engine to do that. The problem is that the sequence of Tweedledum and Tweedledee never ends. This is fine if there's a delay, because you've got an infinite sequence to get through, but an infinite amount of time to do it in*. If there's no delay, you have an infinite number of triggers to get through this frame, which is too much.

*Disclaimer: the Quake engine cannot in fact run indefinitely due to floating point issues. 

Use a different entity than a trigger to relay the firing? A non-moving door perhaps? 

Probably you need to have some sort of flag or variable that cleared when the entity gets "used", and once cleared prevents the loop from repeating. Sort of like breaking out of a while(true) loop. 

I'm imagining if you add a trigger_counter to the loop you might be able to terminate it after a certain amount of iterations? I'm not sure if I'm understanding the question right.

trigger_relay: tweedledee targets tweedledum
trigger_relay: tweedledum targets tweedledee
trigger_counter: tweedledum killtargets tweedledee, count 10

That should be activated 10 times in a single frame, at least in theory? Can't remember how killtarget works atm, maybe it doesn't remove the entity until the next frame.
I don't really see any practical purpose to the whole deal though...
Oh and this setup can't be reused of course. 

That depends on which order tweedledee activates the tweedledum entities. If it goes for the relay first it never reaches the counter obviously, and it most definitely won't work. 

building on CZG's idea...

trigger_multiple:
"targetname" "a"
"target" "b"

trigger_counter:
"targetname" "b"
"target" "a"
"count" "1"

now the trigger_multiple's use function can trigger its own use function on the same frame, but for a total of only twice, instead of infinite times. 

the hard limit of faces and verts (regardless of engine extensions outside of new a format (bsp2)) is 65535.

External bsps do not count, but regular bmodels do.

Have you tried the old standby of removing large portions of the map to try to pinpoint the problem area? 

So its quite possible I just hit the limit with bmodels.

I don't have that many, but I haven't actually vetted the ones I'm using for vertex density. It's possible they've got lots of redundancy.

I tried removing certain lumps of geometry but not yet taking out entire lumps - that's next on the list. I'll give the 'big box' method of elimination a try as well.

In either case I suspect I'll have to either use external bsps or go to bsp2. Possibly both.

Thanks! 

Had an idea for a blindness trap for the player.

trigger_command
fog .9 0 0 0
Used Quoth


Map file
http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/single_player/maps/flashbang.7z

Another one e1m1 with a speed power up.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/tb0t1vaw3bxhz67/pwrtest.7z
Also uses Quoth mod 

v_cshift makes more sense but i wouldn't mind seeing a silent hill darkness fog effect. 

Similar but as a spell cast by a monster, using the shambles darkness effect when it casts lightning.

Worked pretty well, but unfortunately didn't really gel with the monster in question. 

yeah, i never understood what that was all about. at first, i thought it was just some graphical glitch to do with the lightning. 

it'd work well as a direct attack, say, a special type of voreball that if it hits you leaves you blind for a duration. 

a simple question. how to carve shapes in other brushes? for instance what if I want to create a door port in the wall... do I have to create all the blocks around it just manually? 

it depends on the editor you use.

better do it manually, carving usually leads to problems at some point. you can use splitting/cutting tools fine however, at least unless you do weird 3D angles. 

i'm using trenchbroom. so is there anyway to put one shape in another and cut it out of it? 

oh nevermind, got it. 'c' is for cutting. 

'Carve' refers to subtracting one shape from another automatically, and usually means that the resulting geometry is a mess. 

I mean it might look ok, but won't compile without leaks or holes.

The 3 point cutter in trenchbroom, combined with shift dragging faces (kind of like extrude) should be enough for you to make most things you want pretty easily. 

Anything but box shapes causes problems using Hammer. If you want to add light textures to a ceiling for instance. cut/paste/carve/repeat is a nice fast way to do it. 

what's the precached model limit in Fitzquake/Quakespasm/RMQ?
In glquake it's 256 (this includes map bmodels) 

nevermind, i suck and can't read the FQ documentation that clearly says it's now 2048. :P